DC to cure the worst disease... death

[Conradine]

If we consider death as a disease, like any other, and we assume there's a cure...
what DC would be appropriate ( profession - herbalist / physician / alchemist ecc. ) to defeat mortality?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVv_kI6o7WE&ab_channel=ClintMansell-Topic

[Saintheart]

Death comes down to the cessation of the functioning of the brain, either from direct trauma or as the endpoint of a chain reaction on the cessation of other body parts functioning. The brain is literally the most complex thing as a species we have encountered, nothing else comes close. So curing death where the disease attacks the brain directly would be a pretty damn high DC, call it in the 70 range, ie simply Guidance of the Avatar isn't going to be enough to do it.

Where the disease is attacking the body parts, it might be easier, since all other body parts are not as complex as the brain. Therefore the DCs drop from there dorm to a good 40 at minimum.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Alchemy would be the traditional option.
Probably in line with other epic skill checks, so DC 60 at least with 80 or even 100 possible.

I think i saw something like that in a 3rd party book somewhere. The Ravenloft book Van Richten's Arsenal also has something along those lines iirc.

[Batcathat]

"Curing" death seems like an odd notion, since there's no single cause behind it (not in reality, anyway, if in a world where psychopomps actually kill the people they're escorting, rather than just picking them up, it might work). It'd be like making a skill check for "make money" without specifying how you're earning it.

[Saint-Just]

"Curing" death seems like an odd notion, since there's no single cause behind it (not in reality, anyway, if in a world where psychopomps actually kill the people they're escorting, rather than just picking them up, it might work). It'd be like making a skill check for "make money" without specifying how you're earning it.

Agreed. Potions of immortality (or youth) are usually vaguely defined, but if we try to rip examples from SF there are a lot of ways to achieve immortality in a physical body (we'll set aside examples of mind uploading and the like). There are examples of one-off treatments (get it and you're set) and ongoing treatments. There are examples of ongoing treatments that result in death if you stop it (whether because your physiology has been altered and will not work without that treatment or because old age rapidly catches up with you) and examples where you just resume aging normally. There are examples of treatments that can be applied in any age, and examples which must be applied before puberty or in the first months after birth, or only before birth in utero. There are examples which restore you you to your peak physical health and ones that stop you from aging (worse for those who are already old and some will stop children from growing up with creepy/weird/interesting implications as appropriate). And many, many more nuances.

Just one example (which was among the inspirations for the Golden Throne in WH40k): in Silverberg's Lord Valentine's Castle Pontifex Tyeveras (de jure ruler of the world) is kept alive by what is best described as life support turned up to 11. He is barely lucid but can be kept alive... nobody knows how long but many many years (he is already more than a century old and a cautious guess by one of the physicians is "another hundred years, probably"). Something approaching that may be an IRL possibility in our lifetimes. Would you consider a fantasy analog of that (alchemical elixirs brewed by a large staff of alchemists applied daily and some enchanted items on top of that) to be "curing death"? I think it fits the technical definition but falls short of what anyone would consider a "cure" for death.

[Conradine]

If we consider death as a disease...
and I consider it that...
it's the accumulation of structural and genetic damage over time; damage that the body partially heals through stem cell activity, but is unable to heal completely.

So - my opinion - if each and every source of cumulative damage could be single out and erased or - more realistically - reduced below the body self-repair threshold then death would not be "cured" but could be postponed indefinitely.

[Batcathat]

If we consider death as a disease...
and I consider it that...
it's the accumulation of structural and genetic damage over time; damage that the body partially heals through stem cell activity, but is unable to heal completely.

So - my opinion - if each and every source of cumulative damage could be single out and erased or - more realistically - reduced below the body self-repair threshold then death would not be "cured" but could be postponed indefinitely.

Yes, I guess that could technically work, though it's still not a singular "cure". You need one cure for cancer, one cure for heart attacks, one cure for physical damage and so on. I mean, I guess something like a Wolverine-style healing factor could deal with most of it but at that point we're pretty far into the realm of the supernatural rather than a scientific cure.

[Conradine]

I guess something like a Wolverine-style healing factor could deal with most of it

And even that would crumble before long-term adamantium poisoning.

[Bronk]

I kinda like this idea. I'd have a bunch of intermediary steps though, like fixing limbs, reattaching limbs, replacing body parts in a way that somehow isn't a graft but more like a regular transplant, growing new organs or limbs and putting them in, and so on.

Reviving from the dead would also have various levels. First would be reviving the person into a coma, second would be reviving them in a zombie-like state, and I think the culmination of all the skills would bring the person back to full functionality, only without a soul, like a reverse necropolitan or deathless, since it would take magic to move the soul around the planes. They could then quest for a soul like the freed simulacrum of Iggwilv if they wanted. Otherwise, it might be freeing, since the soul is already in it's final destination. Maybe they turn evil with no repercussions, or maybe they're now immune to lycanthropy since it's a soul curse.

I don't know, maybe it could be a full rez if it added in some truename elements? Or something to do with the Words of Creation feat? Something that would give some extra oomph to the regular skill.

[Asmotherion]

I am assuming you mean aging and death by old age.

Two ways to see this:

A) The mechanical way, were Death is not treated as a desease and thus incompatible to the dissease mechanics.

B) The scientific approach; Beware, a lot of people don't like mixing fantasy with science. Fortunatelly, I am NOT one of those people, so here:

Aging, could be interpreted as cellular decay. Thus imunity to Aging would consist of the ability to avoid the process of Cellular Decay altogether, and we do have an ability that at lest hints at that: Regeneration.

This could be assuming that living creatures who virtually live for ever (who don't actually have the ability regeneration), have a form of regeneration, that is just not fast enough to be aplicable in the short term (in battle for example).

Thus two ways could possibly make a creature immortal; A) a way to change the creature's type and subtype into one that has an unlimited life span (thus a permanent polymorph effect or some of the rules from Savage Species), or (arguably) give the ability to regenerate (again through polymorph effects).

If I were to allow a similar effect in a game to be replicated through Alchemy, I'd say it would be a Difficult DC (needs on average a Natural 20 for a creature with max ranks in Alchemy) for the same level a Caster would be able to cast "polymorph any object", an 8th level spell. At 15th level, the max rank in alchemy is 18, and a dedicated Alchemist would probably have at least a +4 intelligence (I ignore extra bonuses from equipment and feats), giving us a DC of 42 to craft such an item.

[Psyren]

Technically Heal doesn't cure disease either, it just gives the patient a (potentially) better save. Death from old age has no saving throw, so the Heal skill does nothing even if you do consider old age to be a disease. So you'll need some form of magic to stop it rather than a skill check.

[Zancloufer]

On a note of "Curing" death from a more literal (RAW) interpretation using a bit of real life.

I work in Funeral Services and see a lot of statements of death (the form in Canada where the causes of death are listed) and the cause of death, or circumstances leading to it, is almost never "Old Age". I see maybe 1/100 people actually die of "being old", which IMHO is probably the closest you get to a "disease of death that can be cured". Actual death by your cells failing due to old age on it's own isn't actually that common IRL.

Also regeneration wouldn't work, you would probably just get super cancer or something if your body starts over-healing to counter old age. Even so, death by old age isn't even really a disease, making it in D&D terms would be that your body just stops healing and you start to take constant (HP) damage or something due to everything shutting down. Best you probably could do in a D&D setting is get a race/template that doesn't have a max life span.

[Vizzerdrix]

Something equivalent to swimming up a waterfall or balancing on a cloud.

[Saint-Just]

Also regeneration wouldn't work, you would probably just get super cancer or something if your body starts over-healing to counter old age. Even so, death by old age isn't even really a disease, making it in D&D terms would be that your body just stops healing and you start to take constant (HP) damage or something due to everything shutting down. Best you probably could do in a D&D setting is get a race/template that doesn't have a max life span.

I see no particular reason regeneration cannot work even IRL with sufficient advances in the understanding of underlying processes. The only factor which is obvious to me is a (very low) increase in number of times the body cells will split, and a proportional increase in cancer risk would be less important than morbidity from various other diseases developing in the old age. And aforementioned risk may be entirely offset by better-functioning immune system.

But even if we imagine super-regeneration causing cancers, there is still a possibility to significantly increase longevity by improving regeneration. If "going over 100%" would cause super cancer you need to improve regeneration from whatever current efficiency it is (probably a lot of nines in a row) to better, but less than 100% (even more nines). It may be absurdly hard but it is not the same as being impossible.

My understanding is that current knowledge of human biology does not allow one to say that it is possible, neither it allows to say it is impossible.

I cannot offhand remember any D&D race which doesn't have a maximal age; even elans which are called "practically immortal" in the description have one, it's just 2000 years or something like that.

[Remuko]

I cannot offhand remember any D&D race which doesn't have a maximal age; even elans which are called "practically immortal" in the description have one, it's just 2000 years or something like that.

The table showing age categories for Elans just has ---- where max age is. 1000 is venerable but they have no max age. They are truly (biologically) immortal.

[Saint-Just]

The table showing age categories for Elans just has ---- where max age is. 1000 is venerable but they have no max age. They are truly (biologically) immortal.

Ok, I see it has been errataed. I am not sure if I remember pre-errata version, or just remember someone talking about it.

[bean illus]

DC 80 is too easy.

I dunno. I'll just say that 80 is a pretty easy standard at 12th level.

I assume that this heal skill check is no more easy, or powerful than raise dead? Raise dead is a 5th level spell, available at cleric 9. Guidance +20, zeal +20, divine insight +10, ranks +12, buffed wis +7, skill focus +3, = total +72. ... i might be able to find 8 more ... .

So, any easier than 80, and a cleric 9 can replace raise dead with some minor spells and a skill check. Should proably go 100, and keep the raise dead conditions/etc (level loss/etc).


... but if you wanna hand me true resurrection as a 2 round 2nd level scroll, with no level loss, and no 25k component, then I'll take it.

[Conradine]

Talking about that... could anyone link me a thread about stackable bonuses to skill checks?

[bean illus]

Talking about that... could anyone link me a thread about stackable bonuses to skill checks?

Is your question about stacking rules? Or sources of bonuses?

You m8ght find something here ... Library of handbooks (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?619649-Is-there-a-library-ofhandbooks&highlight=Library+of+handbooks)

[KillianHawkeye]

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:smallwink: