OOTS #1221 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Fyraltari]

Fight! Fight! Fight!

Ooooh, I can't wait.


Team Evil is just going to pass through the trap and end up in a completely different place than the heroes, aren't they?

Also confirmation that Monster Hollow replenishes monsters in some magical way.


EDIT: Hey, maybe that's it, the "traps" aren't traps at all but a way to lure monsters from some other plane? Apologies if anyone already proposed that, I didn't really keep up with the latest discussion threads.

[WindStruck]

Trouble Approaching!

In which Redcloak jumps to the correct conclusion without exhausting every conceivable and inconceivable possibility!


The traps may also have something to do with monster regeneration, as well as maybe going someplace completely different.

[Goblin_Priest]

Weakened by the monsters, as predicted! XD

[Xihirli]

Oh, Xykon. You are horrible.
Also I think Xykon might be having actual fun here. It turns out Kraagor’s tomb, an infinitely regenerating dungeon, has been his true hope ever sincehe lost the joy of coffee.
I wonder if they could just leave him here and stop worrying.
I mean, Xykon’s only wanted to take over the world because that’s just what villains do this whole time. But he’s actually happy here! This is the first time we’ve seen him enjoy himself for over a day at most!

[Peelee]

I can understand why Blackwing is the most fun to write.

[dancrilis]

And thus Xykon gave up his unlife of villainy to became an adventurer - and the world was saved/doomed.

[Saint-Just]

Greview has the best life advice, as always.

So Team Evil's dungeon trip has worked as expected: they encountered monsters, but are mostly ignoring that fact. Even Redcloak is talking about "mistake", and doesn't seem to suspect a wide-ranging problem. Xykon and Oona are happy to ignore it altogether.

[Wraithfighter]

Team Evil is just going to pass through the trap and end up in a completely different place than the heroes, aren't they?

Not even that, I wager. They're not even going to see the heroes when they throw open the door, Xykon will make some comment about tipping the heroes off on it, and the good guys are going to realize what's going on.

Elan was right a few comics ago, this is way too early for the climactic battle, too many other plots in the air.

[Fyraltari]

Not even that, I wager. They're not even going to see the heroes when they throw open the door, Xykon will make some comment about tipping the heroes off on it, and the good guys are going to realize what's going on.

Elan was right a few comics ago, this is way too early for the climactic battle, too many other plots in the air.

Yes that was how I visualized the scene.

[elros]

I have had several players who are as dramatic as Blackwing. Not sure if Rich was trying to make that point, but it absolutely fit.
Also, how long as Team Evil been going through doors? Oona suggests that it has been shorter than several months, and I have lost all sense of time in this comic!

[Rogan]

I guess, this comic is proof enough that Blackwing can still communicate with the party, despite being away from V. And on the 'wrong' side of the door.

So, wherever this door and the trap leads, it's not a different plane.

[Fyraltari]

I have had several players who are as dramatic as Blackwing. Not sure if Rich was trying to make that point, but it absolutely fit.
Also, how long as Team Evil been going through doors? Oona suggests that it has been shorter than several months, and I have lost all sense of time in this comic!

Three days ago, it was about a week since the pyramid exploded (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1136.html).

[Schroeswald]

Silly Redcloak, thinking is for lame losers, now follow Xykon into the next den of monsters

[Windscion]

It is fortunate that TE is looking down and trying to follow tracks. But Oona, at least, might well be keeping an eye out. And we know Redcloak is. (Badum-tish!)

[Cicciograna]

and I have lost all sense of time in this comic!

"Time loses all meaning when you're on the job." (cit.)

[Cikomyr2]

I am glad to see Xykon is having the time of his death dungeonnering.

[RMS Oceanic]

The fact the Telepathic Bond is still working rules out any interplanar shenanigans at least.

[The Pilgrim]

I always suspected that time flows different for avians. And this comic is solid proof of it.

[dancrilis]

The fact the Telepathic Bond is still working rules out any interplanar shenanigans at least.

It rules out the team having been sent to a different plane, it doesn't rule out that people entering the dungeon could be shifted to a different plane.

[factotum]

So Team Evil's dungeon trip has worked as expected: they encountered monsters, but are mostly ignoring that fact. Even Redcloak is talking about "mistake", and doesn't seem to suspect a wide-ranging problem. Xykon and Oona are happy to ignore it altogether.

If they find more than one dungeon with a marked door that has monsters in it still I think Redcloak at least will start to smell a rat. Is the dungeon that the good guys have just gone into marked, did anyone notice?

[Cikomyr2]

It rules out the team having been sent to a different plane, it doesn't rule out that people entering the dungeon could be shifted to a different plane.

I would say that "the team" is part of the subset "people entering the dungeon".

and "Could" is such a vague noncomittal statement, you can apply it to everything. Technically, what we see also didn't rule out that people who enter the dungeon couldn't have their art style changed to be 3d renderings.

[Grytorm]

The fact the Telepathic Bond is still working rules out any interplanar shenanigans at least.

I'm pretty certain that restoring the trap severed the link. Actually no. Rereading it that is possible but uncertain. I initially interpreted, "Hey! Uh, hey, everyone? No more joking around...", as Blackwing trying to tell them but being a bit weirded out by a lack of response. But I don't think that is clear, that could be something that is happening but the party could be acting off of Blackwings info in panel six. Just nobody explicitly acknowledges that Xykon and company are almost there. And Heroinism and Stoneskin have long enough durations that they don't need to worry about them running out before the fight.

[FlawedParadigm]

Hmm. It would be meaningless - indeed, harmful - to cast buffing spells if one were not expecting at least a scuffle, but I fail to see what the Order gains by engaging at this point. I suppose they could buff in CASE of a scuffle, but still hope to avoid one. Even an ambush by the Order seems unlikely to accomplish much for the Order. At best they could incapacitate Redcloak (killing him works against them) or kill Oona/Greyview...and either might rely on the MitD choosing now to step in and help the good guys. IF that were to happen, they might stand a chance against Xykon...but then even if they manage that, I would think it would be all the more difficult to sway Redcloak.

Granted, I've had five minutes or so thinking this all through, which is more time than they've had, so they've probably not considered all the possible outcomes (if anyone, V and/or Roy.) From my current perspective, it seems to me the Order is playing a strange game when the only winning move seems to be to not play at all.

[Slesk]

Isn't it also possible (from Redcloak's perspective) that some of the passages are connected? That TE missed a hidden door that connects them?

[hamishspence]

Xykon's a bit more childish than usual IMO.

[2D8HP]

"The dog knows what's up"

I've never had respect for Xykon before, but my estimation has gone up with his demonstration of a proper respect for the wisdom of Greyview!

[Grey Watcher]

I'm pretty certain that restoring the trap severed the link. Actually no. Rereading it that is possible but uncertain. I initially interpreted, "Hey! Uh, hey, everyone? No more joking around...", as Blackwing trying to tell them but being a bit weirded out by a lack of response. But I don't think that is clear, that could be something that is happening but the party could be acting off of Blackwings info in panel six. Just nobody explicitly acknowledges that Xykon and company are almost there. And Heroinism and Stoneskin have long enough durations that they don't need to worry about them running out before the fight.

I don't necessarily read it that way. Not impossible, but I read Roy's order to cast medium term buffs as a reaction to Blackwing's report, since he didn't say how far away Team Evil was, just that they were headed in the the Order's direction.


Hmm. It would be meaningless - indeed, harmful - to cast buffing spells if one were not expecting at least a scuffle, but I fail to see what the Order gains by engaging at this point. I suppose they could buff in CASE of a scuffle, but still hope to avoid one. Even an ambush by the Order seems unlikely to accomplish much for the Order. At best they could incapacitate Redcloak (killing him works against them) or kill Oona/Greyview...and either might rely on the MitD choosing now to step in and help the good guys. IF that were to happen, they might stand a chance against Xykon...but then even if they manage that, I would think it would be all the more difficult to sway Redcloak.

Granted, I've had five minutes or so thinking this all through, which is more time than they've had, so they've probably not considered all the possible outcomes (if anyone, V and/or Roy.) From my current perspective, it seems to me the Order is playing a strange game when the only winning move seems to be to not play at all.

I see it as Roy mainly being prepared if Team Evil sees through the bluff about which door they went in. Even if the Order retreats, they'll need buffs to survive long enough to do it.

[understatement]

Great to see the Order strategizing. Love Elan and Haley's moment.

Good (bad?) to see Redcloak thinking his way out as well, and I like his and Oona's casual conversation.

[Reboot]

I see it as Roy mainly being prepared if Team Evil sees through the bluff about which door they went in. Even if the Order retreats, they'll need buffs to survive long enough to do it.

Where would they even retreat to, though?

[B. Pseudonym]

Can't wait to see what kind of can of worms Haley just opened!

Also can't wait to see if Redcloak acts on the door thing now, or if it just kind of sits for a while until MitD shows up again.

Current prediction is that TE will come in through the door, and just when the Order is revving up to charge, the trap activates again, teleporting them elsewhere.

[glowface]

So, Blackwings starting monologue... what is it parodying? It sound awfully familiar.
It is a bit like Rorschach's journal entries from Watchmen, but the reference to the kid and the wife seem to be very un-Rorschachlike.

[Mic_128]

Where would they even retreat to, though?

The tunnel/dungeon that's directly behind them.

[Fyraltari]

People saying that the telepathic link still working rules out the Order being in another dimension are missing the fact that the Giant will only abide by that rule if it's not a bother.

[SlashDash]

They won the first encounter in the original dungeon because team evil was playing them and needed them alive to destroy the gate's defenses.

But ever since?
Every encounter they had was a total loss. They lost the soul splice duel, they barely handled a single 9th level spell slot in the desert (Elemental) and sure there were some extenuating circumstances, if they go into battle with team evil now they are pretty much guaranteed to lose.

Things will need to change, the party will need to upgrade and most likely team evil will have to go through some changes before they can get to a fight (Most likely Redcloak's obvious side switching)



P.S
I have to say, while Redcloak guessing a door was marked by accident is certainly a good guess and is far more likely of him to think of that than actual sabotage from the Monster in the Dark.

Still pondering if he won't question someone else sabotaging their efforts. Like maybe Durkon has been around more than he told him.

[Reboot]

The tunnel/dungeon that's directly behind them.
Yeah, and when TE follows? Retreating only works if you can get enough space to lose pursuit.

Hard to do that in a narrow corridor at close range.

[Thecommander236]

Xykon dismissing the discrepancy should have been a given, I guess...

[Mic_128]

Yeah, and when TE follows? Retreating only works if you can get enough space to lose pursuit.

Hard to do that in a narrow corridor at close range.

1. The tried and tested strategy of "Run away"
2. Throw something at them to distract/delay before running.
3. We don't know what is inside. Forks or branches in the tunnel.

Either way, the point is they can still retreat down the tunnel, even if Team Evil is right at their heels.

[BelgarathMTH]

So, Blackwings starting monologue... what is it parodying? It sound awfully familiar.
It is a bit like Rorschach's journal entries from Watchmen, but the reference to the kid and the wife seem to be very un-Rorschachlike.

That's from old black and white film noir detective movies. They usually start with the detective giving a monologue to himself in his office, when a mysterious woman walks in with a case.

I don't know any specific titles, since I've never seen any originals, but it's very frequently parodied in sci-fi and in cartoons. The various Star Trek series did several holodeck episodes where the officers would be cos-playing it in the holodeck.

[Wraithfighter]

Every encounter they had was a total loss. They lost the soul splice duel, they barely handled a single 9th level spell slot in the desert (Elemental) and sure there were some extenuating circumstances, if they go into battle with team evil now they are pretty much guaranteed to lose.

Things will need to change, the party will need to upgrade and most likely team evil will have to go through some changes before they can get to a fight (Most likely Redcloak's obvious side switching)

I mean, you're not wrong that the Order is probably not quite ready to take on Team Evil, but I think you're underselling just how extenuating those circumstances were, and how much things have changed.

In the desert, they were completely without their most powerful party member, their second most powerful party member was a late arrival and with minimal magic left, Belkar was point of damage away from death (and with a bunch of other penalties), a lot of them had already taken good amounts of damage and they were suddenly thrust into a fight they were completely unprepared for.

Here? They have their full party, they've come here with the explicit expectation that a fight against Xykon might happen, they have a bonus party member too, they have additional levels that they've earned since the desert (gotta figure they earned a bunch during the whole Hel plot), and they're just a more cohesive group as a whole. They've taken some damage and expended some spells so far, but so has Team Evil.

Basically, if there was a fight right now (odds are there won't be), I figure that OOTS would stand a puncher's chance of winning. Things go their way, a bit of luck, some good rolls, and maybe they could squeeze out a victory. But it wouldn't be likely at all.

[dancrilis]

People saying that the telepathic link still working rules out the Order being in another dimension are missing the fact that the Giant will only abide by that rule if it's not a bother.

Assuming that the gate is on the same plane as the other gates then it would make sense for a trap to send people to another plane and a bypassed trap not to (bypassing a trap in order for it to trigger would be somewhat odd) this would also fit with Roy questioning how the dungeons could be mapped - if anything like that is occuring.
I would point out that the sound of disarming the trap was 'Won' which might be an indication that the Order is on the right track - or could be nothing.

Seperately I do have to wonder if the order is not being a little to prepared for their own good - if Belkar clearing the tracks has Team Evil not find the right door and Team Evil knows that magic exists that could have let the dwarves get fairly far away, well they could just wander off and bulk up their defences meaning that all the spells that the order are using are effectively wasted for today unless they act in pseudo short order.

[Darth Paul]

Yes, yes, that's the only logical conclusion, because the other logical conclusion- that the wrong door was marked deliberately- would have such profoundly unacceptable implications! Namely, that the Marker in the Darkness is actively working against your goals for some reason, which would possibly make him the Mole in the Darkness! (Yes, I'm just seeing how many variations on MitD I can get away with in one paragraph before the theme falls apart.)

[locksmith of lo]

TE was not in the other dungeon very long, i guess only for one encounter? mostly verifying that they were misled, in more ways than one. :smallsmile:

[dancrilis]

Just reviewing again - seems from the looks on panel 6 that their might still be some bad blood between Roy and Durkon, which is to be expected but nice artistic touch I think.

[Ninja Dragon]

Xykon knows what it's about.

[Blatt]

I wonder what a Beast Mistress such as Oona could do with a familar telepathically linked to all of Team Good. I fear this might be a vulnerabiity.

[Darth Paul]

I wonder what a Beast Mistress such as Oona could do with a familar telepathically linked to all of Team Good. I fear this might be a vulnerabiity.

I probably shouldn't weigh in on this, because I haven't read the PHB for a year or so, but I'm pretty sure familiars count as a magical creature and would be immune to Beastmaster-type domination. The familiar is already magically linked to another spell-user. But, I could be wrong.

[ByzantiumBhuka]

I wonder what a Beast Mistress such as Oona could do with a familar telepathically linked to all of Team Good. I fear this might be a vulnerabiity.

I wouldn't be too worried... *pop*

[ratfox]

I expected they would flee down the corridor to avoid being found immediately behind the door. Instead, they are hanging around just in case Evil Team picks the right door. However, my bardic senses tell me this is not yet the moment for the final confrontation... Therefore, I assume we will see the "trap" in action on Evil Team, and this will prevent any fight from happening. Looking forward to it!

[drazen]

Wait... Team Evil cleared out an entire high level dungeon in two or three minutes? 47 seconds since closing the door, Haley took a minute to disable the trap, unclear how long Durkon and Minrah were in stone but the Order was seemingly running down the cliff right after hearing the maximized fireball explode, so not *that* long.

[dancrilis]

Wait... Team Evil cleared out an entire high level dungeon in two or three minutes? 47 seconds since closing the door, Haley took a minute to disable the trap, unclear how long Durkon and Minrah were in stone but the Order was seemingly running down the cliff right after hearing the maximized fireball explode, so not *that* long.

Whether they cleared it or not is open to interpretation Greyview might have lead them out before they got very far.

However 2 minutes is 20 rounds - I imagine that Xykon and Redcloak could clear quite a lot in that time especially if they have a lot of practice with these dungeons.

[Quebbster]

Wait... Team Evil cleared out an entire high level dungeon in two or three minutes? 47 seconds since closing the door, Haley took a minute to disable the trap, unclear how long Durkon and Minrah were in stone but the Order was seemingly running down the cliff right after hearing the maximized fireball explode, so not *that* long.

Or greyview caught up after they encountered some monsters. No need to go through it all.
Can the Order still use Wind Walk by the way?

[danielxcutter]

I mean, you're not wrong that the Order is probably not quite ready to take on Team Evil, but I think you're underselling just how extenuating those circumstances were, and how much things have changed.

In the desert, they were completely without their most powerful party member, their second most powerful party member was a late arrival and with minimal magic left, Belkar was point of damage away from death (and with a bunch of other penalties), a lot of them had already taken good amounts of damage and they were suddenly thrust into a fight they were completely unprepared for.

Here? They have their full party, they've come here with the explicit expectation that a fight against Xykon might happen, they have a bonus party member too, they have additional levels that they've earned since the desert (gotta figure they earned a bunch during the whole Hel plot), and they're just a more cohesive group as a whole. They've taken some damage and expended some spells so far, but so has Team Evil.

Basically, if there was a fight right now (odds are there won't be), I figure that OOTS would stand a puncher's chance of winning. Things go their way, a bit of luck, some good rolls, and maybe they could squeeze out a victory. But it wouldn't be likely at all.

In mechanic terms, it is in fact unlikely, if not flat out “rocks fall everyone dies” levels of impossible for the Order to take on Xykon even now because of the sheer number of their options that he’s immune to. In Start of Darkness we’ve seen he has a ring that makes him immune to positive energy(so no Heal bombs), he’s got an item that makes him immune to fire and as a lich he’s also immune to cold and electricity damage, undead can’t be sneak attacked and he has so much DR Haley or Belkar would have trouble so much scratching him. Oh, and he has Boots of Free Movement so the Hand spells don’t work and throwing him into a Gate isn’t an option either.

Roy might be able to pull a Spellsplinter Maneuver once at the climax, but if my suspicions are correct and it works similarly to Mage Slayer or the like then only narrative causality would make it work; even Durkula was able to cast through it once and Xykon’s much stronger.

And this is all before the rest of Team Evil. It’s why I’m betting that Xykon gets taken out by somebody Bull Rushing him into a rift and getting eaten by the Snarl; because there is practically no way for him to lose otherwise.

If this was an actual game and I saw his stats, I’d call BS.

[DaOldeWolf]

I am not sure why it hasnt been mentioned but this could mean that the Mitd´s plan has been noticed. Lets hope Redcloak doesnt realize who the perpetrator is. :smalleek:

[Psyren]

Also I think Xykon might be having actual fun here.

He can actually gain XP and relevant loot in some of these, so yes :smallsmile:

[Kantaki]

Blackwing and V are great.
Maybe they should work as comedians when all this is over.
Haley and Elan are almost sickenly sweet though.
Or maybe it's the candy I ate.:smallbiggrin:

And Xykon shows that you're never too old to learn something new.:smalltongue:

[dancrilis]

Can the Order still use Wind Walk by the way?

Possibly but I wouldn't bet on it - it would have been a convenient method for Durkon and Minrah to escape but they did not use it so it is likely not available any longer, but who knows.

[sillymel]

However 2 minutes is 12 rounds - I imagine that Xykon and Redcloak could clear quite a lot in that time especially if they have a lot of practice with these dungeons.

I'm pretty sure 2 minutes is actually 20 rounds, so even more time.

[dancrilis]

I'm pretty sure 2 minutes is actually 20 rounds, so even more time.

True and corrected.

[Rogar Demonblud]

That's from old black and white film noir detective movies. They usually start with the detective giving a monologue to himself in his office, when a mysterious woman walks in with a case.

I don't know any specific titles, since I've never seen any originals, but it's very frequently parodied in sci-fi and in cartoons. The various Star Trek series did several holodeck episodes where the officers would be cos-playing it in the holodeck.

You can take it a step further. The opening narration in many Trek episodes where someone is dictating a log entry is a riff on the theme.

[bunsen_h]

Not even that, I wager. They're not even going to see the heroes when they throw open the door, Xykon will make some comment about tipping the heroes off on it, and the good guys are going to realize what's going on.

Elan was right a few comics ago, this is way too early for the climactic battle, too many other plots in the air.

There's still the confusion between the two dungeons that the Order has entered, with a pending argument on their having taken some other route entirely.


If they find more than one dungeon with a marked door that has monsters in it still I think Redcloak at least will start to smell a rat. Is the dungeon that the good guys have just gone into marked, did anyone notice?

Yes; double doors, two 'X's. "Dead" eyes. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1220.html)


That's from old black and white film noir detective movies. They usually start with the detective giving a monologue to himself in his office, when a mysterious woman walks in with a case.

I don't know any specific titles, since I've never seen any originals, but it's very frequently parodied in sci-fi and in cartoons. The various Star Trek series did several holodeck episodes where the officers would be cos-playing it in the holodeck.

And the Calvin and Hobbes strips with "Tracer Bullet" (https://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1987/05/16).

[Ave]

Also confirmation that Monster Hollow replenishes monsters in some magical way.


Nope, it is confirmation that the Monster in the Darkness marked a random door as "already seen".

[Fyraltari]

Nope, it is confirmation that the Monster in the Darkness marked a random door as "already seen".

How many monsters get to adulthood in a few months?

[gatemansgc]

I can understand why Blackwing is the most fun to write.

the fact that V can't sigh telepathically so they ask blackwing to imagine them sighing XD

[Malloon]

I would say that "the team" is part of the subset "people entering the dungeon".

and "Could" is such a vague noncomittal statement, you can apply it to everything. Technically, what we see also didn't rule out that people who enter the dungeon couldn't have their art style changed to be 3d renderings.

I think you're misunderstanding. I'm fairly sure dancrilis meant that this rules out that disabling the trap sends you to a different plane, but that it still might do so if you trigger it. Since there is a theory floating around that the trap is a portal (which may send you to a different plane), it's helpful to note that that has not, in fact, just been disproven.

Also, "could" has several meanings or implications. The first is a bare possibility, but it's also often used in cases where the event is, if not likely, at least likely enough to be considered. Some people make this clear by saying "a real possibility", but that isn't necessary.

[FlyingSealion]

Once again Redcloak proves himself to be the holder of at least 2 of Team Evil's 3 collective braincells.........which is kinda sad when you think about it :smallbiggrin:

Anyways, good stuff!

[locksmith of lo]

i was just wondering... how long does it take to dismiss and resummon a familiar? i mean, is it a difficult thing?

[Petrocorus]

At best they could incapacitate Redcloak (killing him works against them)
I don't think it would works against them.
If RC dies, it will impede or at least delay the possibility for Xykon to take over the gate. He might want to destroy it out of spite, but he's more likely to try to put the Cloak on another goblinoid cleric. It's not like he was that much in a hurry.

And if (parts of) the Order survives, they may have more chance to be able to talk sense to this new Cloak bearer than to RC.


..and either might rely on the MitD choosing now to step in and help the good guys. .
I'm not sure MitD is really ready to switch side, not ready enough at least to do it in the absence of O-Chul.

[dancrilis]

How many monsters get to adulthood in a few months?

Outside of some creatures monster ecology is not overly explored in DnD - however many monsters in DnD do not travel in packs, and many who do are also found as solitary creatures.

The implication is that they reach maturity fast otherwise DMs would need stats for adolescent forst worms etc.

[Peelee]

i was just wondering... how long does it take to dismiss and resummon a familiar? i mean, is it a difficult thing?

3m5 doesn't have dismissing and summoning familiar. 5e familiar are very different.

[dancrilis]

3m5 doesn't have dismissing and summoning familiar.

It kindof does:


A familiar is a normal animal that gains new powers and becomes a magical beast when summoned to service by a sorcerer or wizard.
...
A sorcerer can obtain a familiar. Doing so takes 24 hours and uses up magical materials that cost 100 gp.
...
If the familiar dies or is dismissed by the sorcerer, the sorcerer must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude saving throw. Failure means he loses 200 experience points per sorcerer level; success reduces the loss to one-half that amount. However, a sorcerer’s experience point total can never go below 0 as the result of a familiar’s demise or dismissal. A slain or dismissed familiar cannot be replaced for a year and day. A slain familiar can be raised from the dead just as a character can be, and it does not lose a level or a Constitution point when this happy event occurs.

Source (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#sorcererFamiliar).

But is is not summoning or dismissing like a spell would be.

[Peelee]

It kindof does:

Source (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#sorcererFamiliar).

But is is not summoning or dismissing like a spell would be.

True, but I read "dismiss and resummon" in the way 5e treats familiars.

[Riftwolf]

Anyone else think Redcloak was a bit *too* Lawful?
But... The door was marked! IT WAS MARKED. Its inconceivable there would be monsters behind it! Inconceivable! It's not like we were literally led to that door by two enemies who then did a bait-and-switch on us! There is no earthly possibility, no elementary deduction, no conceivable reality! I'M THIS CLOSE TO BLUE-SCREENING OVER HERE (paraphrased)

[Rogar Demonblud]

The Plan is heavily dependent on everything working exactly as intended. He just learned that's not happening.

[Kaemon]

Without reading any of the comments, here is my guess: In the upcoming comics, we will see Team Evil go in the same door as the heroes... and be seen and heard by the heroes... but they won't see nor hear them, as the "active trap" will make their side of the entrance connect with a different corridor/dungeon.

[PontificatusRex]

So, seems like the big question is "How successful was Belkar at concealing their tracks?"

[Fyraltari]

Anyone else think Redcloak was a bit *too* Lawful?
But... The door was marked! IT WAS MARKED. Its inconceivable there would be monsters behind it! Inconceivable! It's not like we were literally led to that door by two enemies who then did a bait-and-switch on us! There is no earthly possibility, no elementary deduction, no conceivable reality! I'M THIS CLOSE TO BLUE-SCREENING OVER HERE (paraphrased)
You are adding a lot of intensity that simply isn't there. Redcloak noticed an issue and is going through a few possible explanations. His mind went to mistake before "ennemy action" probably because this isn't the first time there was something odd about the marked doors. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1189.html)

[FlyingSealion]

Anyone else think Redcloak was a bit *too* Lawful?
But... The door was marked! IT WAS MARKED. Its inconceivable there would be monsters behind it! Inconceivable! It's not like we were literally led to that door by two enemies who then did a bait-and-switch on us! There is no earthly possibility, no elementary deduction, no conceivable reality! I'M THIS CLOSE TO BLUE-SCREENING OVER HERE (paraphrased)

What are you talking about? Isn't blue-screening a normal reaction to something like this? :smalltongue:

[137beth]

I'm guessing Redcloak will figure out the deal with MitD in the near future, but Xykon and Oona won't believe him.

[Fish]

In mechanic terms, it is in fact unlikely, if not flat out “rocks fall everyone dies” levels of impossible for the Order to take on Xykon even now because of the sheer number of their options that he’s immune to. In Start of Darkness we’ve seen he has a ring that makes him immune to positive energy(so no Heal bombs), he’s got an item that makes him immune to fire and as a lich he’s also immune to cold and electricity damage, undead can’t be sneak attacked and he has so much DR Haley or Belkar would have trouble so much scratching him. Oh, and he has Boots of Free Movement so the Hand spells don’t work and throwing him into a Gate isn’t an option either.
But could he have predicted that V would be able to invoke... SONIC?? (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0345.html)

[CountDVB]

The Plan is heavily dependent on everything working exactly as intended. He just learned that's not happening.

Yeah, that's the thing. People forget that Redcloak is still basically a goblin teenager, even if one trumatized and slightly learning from his mistakes. Hence why he's stubborn and refusing to admit he's wrong.

Also I wonder if even Redcloak would suspect MitD. I don't think even he would.

[Velaryon]

I'm pretty certain that restoring the trap severed the link. Actually no. Rereading it that is possible but uncertain. I initially interpreted, "Hey! Uh, hey, everyone? No more joking around...", as Blackwing trying to tell them but being a bit weirded out by a lack of response. But I don't think that is clear, that could be something that is happening but the party could be acting off of Blackwings info in panel six. Just nobody explicitly acknowledges that Xykon and company are almost there. And Heroinism and Stoneskin have long enough durations that they don't need to worry about them running out before the fight.

I read Blackwing's "No more joking around" comment as him letting the party know that he's getting serious now, not playing around like he was a moment before. I don't think it's indicative of him having lost contact with the others. Right now, I'm of the belief that setting off the trap probably takes you somewhere else (whether that's another plane or elsewhere on this one), whereas bypassing it like Haley did lets you continue down the actual tunnel.

[Wraithfighter]

In mechanic terms, it is in fact unlikely, if not flat out “rocks fall everyone dies” levels of impossible for the Order to take on Xykon even now because of the sheer number of their options that he’s immune to. In Start of Darkness we’ve seen he has a ring that makes him immune to positive energy(so no Heal bombs), he’s got an item that makes him immune to fire and as a lich he’s also immune to cold and electricity damage, undead can’t be sneak attacked and he has so much DR Haley or Belkar would have trouble so much scratching him. Oh, and he has Boots of Free Movement so the Hand spells don’t work and throwing him into a Gate isn’t an option either.

Roy might be able to pull a Spellsplinter Maneuver once at the climax, but if my suspicions are correct and it works similarly to Mage Slayer or the like then only narrative causality would make it work; even Durkula was able to cast through it once and Xykon’s much stronger.

And this is all before the rest of Team Evil. It’s why I’m betting that Xykon gets taken out by somebody Bull Rushing him into a rift and getting eaten by the Snarl; because there is practically no way for him to lose otherwise.

If this was an actual game and I saw his stats, I’d call BS.

Unless I'm mistaken, Durkula never cast a spell through it, he just made the concentration check on a standard attack while he was casting.

Either way, it really is immaterial. We haven't really had a climactic victory by the heroes ever that's been something that'd be replicated in gameplay terms only, every single major victory by the heroes has largely come down to, well, the characters themselves. Durkon ending the summit with in-universe rules lawyers, Durkon talking Durkula to death, Belkar's rage thing giving him a second wind, V using Sabine's intel about Laurin to convince her to flee the field, not to mention the countless lucky breaks (like the trapped hallway going basically perfectly for the heroes or Belkar being just not dead enough to be awakened by the Protection from Evil effect activated by Mr. Scruff's pawing)...

It's a story first and foremost, the way the D&D rules are implemented are going to service the story. My point's just that it's not outright impossible for the OOTS to beat Team Evil right now. That's not how it's going to happen, because that'd make for a bad story, but they're about as powerful as a group as one could reasonably expect a group of plucky heroes to be at the end of a long campaign.

[BruceGee]

If Haley removing the skull resets a teleportation trap, and they've actually gone elsewhere, then why do they still see the same door that they came through on the other side? After all, we know that the doors aren't all identical.

I suppose you could have an invisible teleportation portal that allows light to pass through it, but teleports matter. But it seems weird.

[Fyraltari]

If Haley removing the skull resets a teleportation trap, and they've actually gone elsewhere, then why do they still see the same door that they came through on the other side? After all, we know that the doors aren't all identical.

I suppose you could have an invisible teleportation portal that allows light to pass through it, but teleports matter. But it seems weird.
Either they weren't teleported* or the spells default to the last corridor it was used from.

*The most likely explanation since Haley tinkered with the trap.

[Goblin_Priest]

I'm pretty certain that restoring the trap severed the link. Actually no. Rereading it that is possible but uncertain. I initially interpreted, "Hey! Uh, hey, everyone? No more joking around...", as Blackwing trying to tell them but being a bit weirded out by a lack of response. But I don't think that is clear, that could be something that is happening but the party could be acting off of Blackwings info in panel six. Just nobody explicitly acknowledges that Xykon and company are almost there. And Heroinism and Stoneskin have long enough durations that they don't need to worry about them running out before the fight.

It looks like Roy's ordering the buffs in response to blackwing's intel, but you are correct that it is presented in an ambiguous manner, and that the link may indeed be severed from the moment they re-armed the trap.

[pendell]

I have to admit, this strip makes me feel sympathy for Redcloak. As the only one on Team Evil with a functioning brain cell, he reminds me of the kid with glasses who always did all the work on group projects in school.

Well, okay, Grayview may be reasonably intelligent, but he seems to be applying that more to Russian novel style quips than to solving the problem at hand.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[factotum]

I'm guessing Redcloak will figure out the deal with MitD in the near future, but Xykon and Oona won't believe him.

It's unclear why he would, though? Even if he figures out that doors are getting marked that shouldn't be, then given how childish the MitD generally seems to be, he'd probably mark it up to a genuine error or stupidity rather than an active attempt to block what they're doing.

[Inle-rah]

Anyone else read Roy and Durkon's expressions as being (still) very pissed at each other? Disunity sounds like a big handicap right now. :smallfrown: I wonder if they're having a heated telepathic argument with each other that we the viewers aren't privy to.

[Saint-Just]

Well, okay, Grayview may be reasonably intelligent, but he seems to be applying that more to Russian novel style quips than to solving the problem at hand.


He has behaved quite intelligently when dwarves was hiding, and I do not see how he could demonstrate his intelligence in other strips. I hope you don't expect him to think for Xykon and\or Oona?

[Ghosty]

...Every encounter they had was a total loss. They lost the soul splice duel, they barely handled a single 9th level spell slot in the desert (Elemental) and sure there were some extenuating circumstances, if they go into battle with team evil now they are pretty much guaranteed to lose.

Things will need to change, the party will need to upgrade and most likely team evil will have to go through some changes before they can get to a fight (Most likely Redcloak's obvious side switching)



P.S
I have to say, while Redcloak guessing a door was marked by accident is certainly a good guess and is far more likely of him to think of that than actual sabotage from the Monster in the Dark.

Still pondering if he won't question someone else sabotaging their efforts. Like maybe Durkon has been around more than he told him.

Or the Bugbear Village. Consider, Team Evil has been speed running these dungeons of late, doing upwards of four and five per night. Oona says it normally takes months to restock one dungeon. Might therefore TE possibly think that the Bugbears are messing with TE's tally, so TE doesn't deplete every dungeon and the Village starves?

The Order has seriously upgraded since that desert debacle, FWIW. Mainly, they trust and work with one another now. They synergize their strengths and address their weaknesses. Which is the most important lesson they as a whole have learned.

Plus, they've better stuff and feats now: Belkar's dagger, Bloodfeast, and Pro. Evil clasp; Roy's Spellsplinter and gigantic bag of buffs from that Weapon of Legacy stuff: Durkon's fully upgraded Hammer of Thunderbolts; V's likely 9th level casting; and so on.

Xykon is seriously overpowered, and RedCloak is no slouch. But the Order are a whole lot more formidable now than they used to be.

[Fish]

If Haley removing the skull resets a teleportation trap, and they've actually gone elsewhere, then why do they still see the same door that they came through on the other side? After all, we know that the doors aren't all identical.
Look at it from the other side. If they can still see the same door that they came through, then the easiest solution is that they didn't get teleported.

Hypothesis:

Suppose if you cross the trap traveling inward from the entrance, you (and light) get teleported to some Location X; if you disable the trap, you don't, and you step into Actual Corridor A. (That seems like a reasonable default.) When the trap is re-enabled, it doesn't necessarily teleport everything already within Actual Corridor A off to Location X.

Further suppose that if you look from the entrance into the tunnel, the trap causes you to see the destination dungeon, not ACA. If you look the other way, from the hall toward the door, you see the real entrance and real door — the trap only distorts light and travel in one direction.

Whereas Location X might be somewhere else entirely and you'd never know it, Actual Corridor A (ACA) is the short length of hallway leading away in a straight line from the actual chasm. ACA might not even be that long, or contain anything at all. Roy commented that there wouldn't be much room for a full dungeon behind each doorway, because the halls would overlap each other.

It now seems obvious that one of the main functions for Serini's "multi-dimensional stone" is to force parties to pass by the trap line. They cannot bypass by phasing through the walls.

[pendell]

Anyone else read Roy and Durkon's expressions as being (still) very pissed at each other? Disunity sounds like a big handicap right now. :smallfrown: I wonder if they're having a heated telepathic argument with each other that we the viewers aren't privy to.

I don't read "angry with each other". That looks like concern; they know they're about to fight an epic-level enemy and its party, and they know they aren't prepared for it. Roy isn't terrified, but he is concerned to try to get everything as right as possible before the thing starts.

At this point I don't think anyone has any brain cycles to spare for Durkon's little adventure. Either they will win, in which case all will be forgiven, or they'll all die, in which case, again, there's no point in arguing.

Of course, neither outcome is going to happen but I think Roy and Durkon are totally consumed with dealing with the immediate threat at the moment.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Resileaf]

My money is still on the trap being a portal.

[dancrilis]

I don't read "angry with each other". That looks like concern; they know they're about to fight an epic-level enemy and its party, and they know they aren't prepared for it. Roy isn't terrified, but he is concerned to try to get everything as right as possible before the thing starts.

At this point I don't think anyone has any brain cycles to spare for Durkon's little adventure. Either they will win, in which case all will be forgiven, or they'll all die, in which case, again, there's no point in arguing.

Of course, neither outcome is going to happen but I think Roy and Durkon are totally consumed with dealing with the immediate threat at the moment.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

That however does not account for them pseudo frowning at each other in panel 6.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Grayview may be reasonably intelligent, but he seems to be applying that more to Russian novel style quips than to solving the problem at hand.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Err... yes, he is. The disconnect is that his problem at hand is not the same as TE's problem at hand. His problem is that when the icy jaws of death come, there won't have been enough treats. Everything he is doing is at least ameliorating the problem by ensuring the continued arrival of treats.

Nod. Get treat.

Grey Wolf

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Finagle]

I don't think the dungeons are magically repopulating. It's just a reference to if a dungeon is cleared out by adventurers, that a bunch of new monsters will move in. It's just the nature of dungeons. That they're in the north pole? Bah ha ha, logic means nothing to dungeon denizens. You should see PCs get upset and tear their hair out that dungeons don't have water sources or crops growing outside the entrance.


Wait... Team Evil cleared out an entire high level dungeon in two or three minutes? 47 seconds since closing the door, Haley took a minute to disable the trap, unclear how long Durkon and Minrah were in stone but the Order was seemingly running down the cliff right after hearing the maximized fireball explode, so not *that* long.
Yeah, I had a problem with that too. It should take hours to clear a dungeon. The mapping, the trap clearing (how does Team Evil disarm traps, anyway?), the combat, the looting...it all takes a while. Even for a dungeon that is nothing but a single encounter room.

[Resileaf]

Yeah, I had a problem with that too. It should take hours to clear a dungeon. The mapping, the trap clearing (how does Team Evil disarm traps, anyway?), the combat, the looting...it all takes a while. Even for a dungeon that is nothing but a single encounter room.

Nobody said they cleared the dungeon. All they have to do is kill the first encounter and leave since it's clear the dwarves didn't go that way.

And to answer your question, Team Evil disarms traps by triggering them and tanking the effects with massive buff use.

[Ghosty]

In mechanic terms, it is in fact unlikely, if not flat out “rocks fall everyone dies” levels of impossible for the Order to take on Xykon even now because of the sheer number of their options that he’s immune to. In Start of Darkness we’ve seen he has a ring that makes him immune to positive energy(so no Heal bombs), he’s got an item that makes him immune to fire and as a lich he’s also immune to cold and electricity damage, undead can’t be sneak attacked and he has so much DR Haley or Belkar would have trouble so much scratching him. Oh, and he has Boots of Free Movement so the Hand spells don’t work and throwing him into a Gate isn’t an option either...

...If this was an actual game and I saw his stats, I’d call BS.

Agree with your last---though I think I'd have flipped the table and left before then, Settlers of Catan-style. Still fun to read and discuss, obviously.

Sunburst, Disintegrate, Undeath to Death, Destruction (?), Durkon's Hammer, Roy's Sword, the Paladins Smiting Evil if they ever show up again. The Order doesn't lack for things to cause damage to Xykon. The question, obviously, is how to do enough damage to turn him off before he totally mows down their team. It's a tall order.

On another point, I don't think killing RedCloak is a reasonable possibility. Thor et al, need a 9th level spell from that quiddity. RedCloak is it for that possibility. Kill him and Rez him---assuming he even comes back, or that he's killed in a manner where Rez is possible---and will he lose enough XP to drop below 17th Level?

[Thermophille]

It's unclear why he would, though? Even if he figures out that doors are getting marked that shouldn't be, then given how childish the MitD generally seems to be, he'd probably mark it up to a genuine error or stupidity rather than an active attempt to block what they're doing.

Considering that he's been adding ~3 extra doors every day since they arrived? Redcloak has already noticed the number of doors and found it odd. He'll quickly come to the conclusion that this isn't unique, and that more than a couple doors have been incorrectly marked.

Assuming he doesn't jump to the conclusion that the dwarves did it (since he knows why Durkon showed up, and doesn't have a reason to think that a LG dwarf cleric would use that kind of deception), he would quickly conclude that MitD has been consistently marking incorrect dorways.

From there, he only has to rememeber the number of suspicious things MitD has said in the comic so far (telling them not to kill the order, trying to call Xykon's attention away from the additional doors) along with his general not-super-evil-ness, concluding that MitD is working against him is not farfetched.

How quickly he reaches that conclusion is a much more interesting question now, since I see no reason to believe that he will get there eventually.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Team Evil disarms traps by triggering them and tanking the effects with massive buff use.

Yes, the good ol' Cleric Feather Fall (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0806.html) spell.

GW

[GeoffWatson]

Considering that he's been adding ~3 extra doors every day since they arrived? Redcloak has already noticed the number of doors and found it odd. He'll quickly come to the conclusion that this isn't unique, and that more than a couple doors have been incorrectly marked.

Assuming he doesn't jump to the conclusion that the dwarves did it (since he knows why Durkon showed up, and doesn't have a reason to think that a LG dwarf cleric would use that kind of deception), he would quickly conclude that MitD has been consistently marking incorrect dorways.

From there, he only has to rememeber the number of suspicious things MitD has said in the comic so far (telling them not to kill the order, trying to call Xykon's attention away from the additional doors) along with his general not-super-evil-ness, concluding that MitD is working against him is not farfetched.

How quickly he reaches that conclusion is a much more interesting question now, since I see no reason to believe that he will get there eventually.

The MitD only did the marking some of the time. In 1039 he asks to do the paint "this time", which implies the others did it most of the time.

[Rogar Demonblud]

The fact the number of marked doors has apparently been rocketing up to the point RC thinks they're tackling up to six a day would seem to indicate the MITD has been painting more regularly of late.

[Petrocorus]

Anyone else read Roy and Durkon's expressions as being (still) very pissed at each other? Disunity sounds like a big handicap right now. :smallfrown: I wonder if they're having a heated telepathic argument with each other that we the viewers aren't privy to.

I really don't read this. For me, Roy is annoyed, not really "pissed off", and Durkon is much more sorry than pissed.
I think they will work together just fine now. Roy will just throw some quibs at Durkon here and there and Durkon will try to convince the Order to take RC alive.

And they can try to kill and raise RC. He probably above level 17.

[KorvinStarmast]

Current prediction is that TE will come in through the door, and just when the Order is revving up to charge, the trap activates again, teleporting them elsewhere. My notional two dollar bet is against that plane shifting shenannigans. Redcloak and Xykon would have noticed stuff like that long before this, based on their rate of dungeon / door entries.

So, Blackwings starting monologue... what is it parodying? It sound awfully familiar. It is a bit like Rorschach's journal entries from Watchmen, but the reference to the kid and the wife seem to be very un-Rorschachlike. I can see the ref, but it looks like standard film noir fare to me...

Haley and Elan are almost sickenly sweet though. They are young, good looking, and in love; they can't help it.
I'm guessing Redcloak will figure out the deal with MitD in the near future, but Xykon and Oona won't believe him. A notional two dollar bet for this; Redcloak's gears will grind and he'll get closer to the truth, and they won't want to hear it.

[Rogan]

My notional two dollar bet is against that plane shifting shenannigans. Redcloak and Xykon would have noticed stuff like that long before this, based on their rate of dungeon / door entries.


They can't notice anything that does not happen. My theory still is the following:
Bypassing the trap activated an portal effect. The floor changed color, since they are not in the real dungeon anymore. That is, the dungeon located behind the door.
Team Evil will (if they happen to find the door despite the tracks being hidden) not see the Order. The order is on the other side of a portal and this portal seems to be still active in one direction, so the Order can see the door. But it's no longer active in the other direction, so Team Evil can not follow them.

[Thrillhouse]

The fact that it takes months for the monsters to regenerate causes me to think that the monster regenerating may in fact be as low tech as what Serini did the first time (here: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html), plus a few invisibility spells.

[KorvinStarmast]

That however does not account for them pseudo frowning at each other in panel 6. Not seeing what you are seeing in panel 6.
(1) Roy is addressing all of the spell casters, and he's deadly serious since they are prepping for a fight with the BBEG/Xykon.
(2) Durkon isn't even frowning; he's on task, focused on his spell casting. He too has on a serious face for a serious situation.
(3) Likewise with V: same expression as Durkon's but you didn't call V out for frowning at Roy.
(4) Notice also Minrah's serious expression: I don't see you calling her out as frowning at Haley.
(5) If you look at the edge of the panel, the same kind of serious expression as Minrah's is on Belkar's face.
(6) Even Elan's face is indicative of concentrating on getting his preprations right.

So here's my take on panel 6: they all have their game face on except for Haley, but she's still subject to the "in love" bit. (It seemed to me that she was the sky writer here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1202.html))

[Riftwolf]

You are adding a lot of intensity that simply isn't there.

Some intensity may have been added for comic effect.

And I don't think I'm too far off. Xykons telling him to zip it which suggests he's been bothering on the door mark for at least one other speech bubble. And it's not like it's a hard puzzle; the dwarves planned their escape route (and even told him so), which involved pre-marking a door, leading Team Evil into it, then escaping while they were distracted.
Just because its the wrong conclusion doesn't mean its not an easy one to jump to.
(Also saw someone comment on the lawfulness of Dwarves, which I doubt Redcloak would put much trust in.)

[dancrilis]

(3) Likewise with V: same expression as Durkon's but you didn't call V out for frowning at Roy.
(4) Notice also Minrah's serious expression: I don't see you calling her out as frowning at Haley.


You are reading Durkon's eyebrows as the same as Vaarsuvius's and Minrah's? Fair enough to each their own, I am seeing a difference.

[Thermophille]

Rereading this strip, is it weird that the thing that bugs me the most is that Xykon's last line doesn't roll of the tongue? 'Heh' would have flowed with his sentence much better than 'Haha'.

[Mr. Wonderful]

A notional two dollar bet for this; Redcloak's gears will grind and he'll get closer to the truth, and they won't want to hear it.

The clearest path to the world being saved is that Redcloak gets closer to the truth on all sorts of things.

But how? He's been presented with the truth by Durkon and flat out rejected it. What would cause him to reconsider? It would have to be something very significant, quite possibly prompted by a battle with the Order.


The Order could get the drop on them such that X bails and Durkon convinces them to spare RC
X grabs RC and bails, leaving Oona to die, causing RC to reconsider Durkon's arguments
Oona could hold off the Order while the others escape
Lots of other things the clever people on this forum can come up with



In each case it isn't the final encounter or anything close to it. But it would change the power dynamic, and more importantly, Redcloak's point of view.

[WanderingMist]

Trouble Approaching!

In which Redcloak jumps to the correct conclusion without exhausting every conceivable and inconceivable possibility!

That's not the correct conclusion. The correct conclusion is "sabotage".

Yes, yes, that's the only logical conclusion, because the other logical conclusion- that the wrong door was marked deliberately- would have such profoundly unacceptable implications! Namely, that the Marker in the Darkness is actively working against your goals for some reason, which would possibly make him the Mole in the Darkness! (Yes, I'm just seeing how many variations on MitD I can get away with in one paragraph before the theme falls apart.)


Just reviewing again - seems from the looks on panel 6 that their might still be some bad blood between Roy and Durkon, which is to be expected but nice artistic touch I think.
I think you're overthinking and they've just got their ready-to-go faces on.

I am not sure why it hasn't been mentioned but this could mean that the Mitd´s plan has been noticed. Let's hope Redcloak doesn't realize who the perpetrator is. :smalleek:
It's been "noticed", but the only person who cared believed it was error, not intentional.

Anyone else think Redcloak was a bit *too* Lawful?
But...The door was marked! IT WAS MARKED. Its inconceivable there would be monsters behind it! Inconceivable! It's not like we were literally led to that door by two enemies who then did a bait-and-switch on us! There is no earthly possibility, no elementary deduction, no conceivable reality! I'M THIS CLOSE TO BLUE-SCREENING OVER HERE (paraphrased)

I don't think that's what the worry mark on Redcloak's right eye means. I think it just means he realizes if even a single door has been marked incorrectly, then they have to restart the entire search.

[Kantaki]

I have to admit, this strip makes me feel sympathy for Redcloak. As the only one on Team Evil with a functioning brain cell, he reminds me of the kid with glasses who always did all the work on group projects in school.

I mean, Team Evil consists of who?
Wrongeye and Big X?
Obviously Reddy got all the brains here.
Xykon's got scooped out as part of his weight loss plan.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Interesting development here. Not suprising, of course, that Redcloak noticed a door was improperly marked, but I do wonder how long it will take him to come to the correct conclusion. I am also excited for Team Evil to find the correct door, since it does seem like that might reveal the nature of the trap.

[Paula]

If Blackwing is that far away, then V won't get increase in spell power from that bracelet he's wearing.

Off topic question: According to comic 724, Tarquin never told Nale about Elan. So when Nale formed the original Linear Guild with Hilgya and Yikyik, he must not have known about the Order of the Stick. So how did he get an evil opposites theme? Or is it just a sheer coincidence?

[Marsala]

So, seems like the big question is "How successful was Belkar at concealing their tracks?"

Probably not very successful, since Team Evil is more likely to find the right door and trigger the trap than simply miss the right door altogether, which would not advance the plot at all. In Belkar's defense, Roy interrupted him before he was finished.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Presumably Nale learned about Elan between leaving home and meeting him in the Dungeon of Dorukan.

[Fyraltari]

If Blackwing is that far away, then V won't get increase in spell power from that bracelet he's wearing.

Off topic question: According to comic 724, Tarquin never told Nale about Elan. So when Nale formed the original Linear Guild with Hilgya and Yikyik, he must not have known about the Order of the Stick. So how did he get an evil opposites theme? Or is it just a sheer coincidence?

It's not that big of a coincidence, six-adventurers party seem to be the norm in this world*, so he got an evil adventuring party and once he realized his target was his long lost borther of opposite alignment he spinned it as an evil opposite thing. But really there is no real consistency Yikyik and early Belkar are basically identical, for example.

*Hell parties that suspiciously resonnate with each other:
Soon/Shoulderpad Guy?/Roy/Nale
Girard/Jacinda/Haley/Sabine
Serini/Tarquin/Elan/Thog
Dorukan/Laurin/Vaarsuvius/Zz'dtri
Lirian/Malack/Durkon/Hilgya
Kraagor/Miron/Belkar/Yikyik

[ebarde]

I'm honestly starting to think Oona knows something is up and just doesn't care. Like, I don't think she wouldn't notice that the monsters shouldn't be respawning since she's so familiar with the dungeon.

[JT]

It's unclear why he would, though? Even if he figures out that doors are getting marked that shouldn't be, then given how childish the MitD generally seems to be, he'd probably mark it up to a genuine error or stupidity rather than an active attempt to block what they're doing.

MitD: "But Redcloak, I was only trying to help! We were dealing with the dungeons LOTS faster this way!"

[ebarde]

I mean, Redcloak at this point probably can start piecing things together I feel. The main reason he hasn't is because he didn't really bothered paying attention to the MITD, but if he can recall all the other times MITD undermined Team Evil I think there's a good chance he will know something is up. Like, he's been acting suspicious for a while, it's more the case of Recloak never really taking the time to look into anything MITD did, but if he was responsible for this major of a delay I'm sure that could change.

[Lexible]

That's from old black and white film noir detective movies. They usually start with the detective giving a monologue to himself in his office, when a mysterious woman walks in with a case.

I don't know any specific titles, since I've never seen any originals, but it's very frequently parodied in sci-fi and in cartoons. The various Star Trek series did several holodeck episodes where the officers would be cos-playing it in the holodeck.


And the Calvin and Hobbes strips with "Tracer Bullet" (https://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1987/05/16).



You are confusing the Chandleresque private detective genre (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Chandler#Critical_reception), with the police procedural (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_procedural) genre (which can sometimes include police detective stories). Blackwing is solidly in the latter. :smallsmile:

[Ruck]

So, Blackwings starting monologue... what is it parodying? It sound awfully familiar.
It is a bit like Rorschach's journal entries from Watchmen, but the reference to the kid and the wife seem to be very un-Rorschachlike.

I don't think it's anything specific, just some generic hard-boiled cop dialogue, but it could be something I don't recognize.


And this is all before the rest of Team Evil. It’s why I’m betting that Xykon gets taken out by somebody Bull Rushing him into a rift and getting eaten by the Snarl; because there is practically no way for him to lose otherwise.

I wonder if MITD could do it. And if that will be the moment of his great emergence from the shadows.

What if the "If Redcloak ever betrays me" Suggestion isn't a Chekov's Gun, but an ironic red herring, because it will be MITD who betrays Xykon in the end?

[drazen]

Nobody said they cleared the dungeon. All they have to do is kill the first encounter and leave since it's clear the dwarves didn't go that way.

And to answer your question, Team Evil disarms traps by triggering them and tanking the effects with massive buff use.

Xykon says they killed the monsters and took their stuff.

Doesn't seem to add up. The first tomb dungeon took Team Evil "a few hours" yet this one apparently was... not much of anything?

[catagent101]

Xykon says they killed the monsters and took their stuff.

Doesn't seem to add up. The first tomb dungeon took Team Evil "a few hours" yet this one apparently was... not much of anything?

I think Xykon was saying that they took care of the encounter not the whole dungeon, that is the "active monsters" Redcloak was referring to. If they had gone through the whole dungeon I think Redcloak would have said "fully stocked dungeon" or something similar.

[KorvinStarmast]

I have to admit, this strip makes me feel sympathy for Redcloak. As the only one on Team Evil with a functioning brain cell, he reminds me of the kid with glasses who always did all the work on group projects in school.
A role that was addressed here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1040.html).

[Petrocorus]

*Hell parties that suspiciously resonnate with each other:
Soon/Shoulderpad Guy?/Roy/Nale
Girard/Jacinda/Haley/Sabine
Serini/Tarquin/Elan/Thog
Dorukan/Laurin/Vaarsuvius/Zz'dtri
Lirian/Malack/Durkon/Hilgya
Kraagor/Miron/Belkar/Yikyik

I will ask you to explain this.
How do you make this equivalences?

[danielxcutter]

Agree with your last---though I think I'd have flipped the table and left before then, Settlers of Catan-style. Still fun to read and discuss, obviously.

It’s less about Xykon’s stats in and of themselves(especially since he’s a single-classed Sorcerer; the benefits from getting more levels beyond 20 are rather minimal) and more about in comparison to the Order. A decently optimized level 20 party could take him on fairly easy without even breaking out the real cheese. The Order is both less leveled and less optimized than that though, and he almost specifically counters everyone besides the clerics and Roy.


Sunburst, Disintegrate, Undeath to Death, Destruction (?), Durkon's Hammer, Roy's Sword, the Paladins Smiting Evil if they ever show up again. The Order doesn't lack for things to cause damage to Xykon. The question, obviously, is how to do enough damage to turn him off before he totally mows down their team. It's a tall order.

Sunburst would probably work. V has an extremely poor track record with touch attacks and I’m pretty sure Undeath to Death is necromancy(which V barred). And the melee attacks have the slight drawback of needing to hit, and Xykon’s AC is at least in the high 30s if not higher.

To be honest, an epic leveled-version of Redcloak would be far easier to fight with the Order even with all the various defensive cleric spells. That probably wouldn’t flat-out ignore almost everything they have to do.


On another point, I don't think killing RedCloak is a reasonable possibility. Thor et al, need a 9th level spell from that quiddity. RedCloak is it for that possibility. Kill him and Rez him---assuming he even comes back, or that he's killed in a manner where Rez is possible---and will he lose enough XP to drop below 17th Level?

It’s better for his character arc for him to survive, but that’s including SoD and not everyone’s aware of what happened in that one.


I wonder if MITD could do it. And if that will be the moment of his great emergence from the shadows.

What if the "If Redcloak ever betrays me" Suggestion isn't a Chekov's Gun, but an ironic red herring, because it will be MITD who betrays Xykon in the end?

Hmm, I don’t know. I think the Order also needs a good climax and this would steal the spotlight a bit too much. Though there might be build-up to that I dunno.

Also I favor my headcanon because “yeeted into a Gate” was how Roy defeated Xykon the first time, so it’d be poetic that it’d be how he defeats Xykon the last time as well.


I will ask you to explain this.
How do you make this equivalences?

I think there are aspects that are spread about. For example, Roy is a smart leader and a melee combatant; Nale is an intelligent leader but less good at melee, Thog’s excellent at melee but is sharp as a bag of wet mice. Girard is a Cha-based caster and dual wielding Ranger; Belkar is a dual wielding Ranger and Elan and Nale are Cha-based casters, etc.

You could probably write an essay about the similarities and differences between the four major adventuring groups, actually, but I’ve never gotten around to that just yet.

[Edea]

I guess the Silence spell didn't really do much of anything, ah well.

[Raven777]

Dorukan/Laurin/Vaarsuvius/Zz'dtri
Lirian/Malack/Durkon/Hilgya
Kraagor/Miron/Belkar/Yikyik

Somehow, with some compromise, I feel these three parties could actually get stuff done.

[Crispie]

I'm honestly starting to think Oona knows something is up and just doesn't care. Like, I don't think she wouldn't notice that the monsters shouldn't be respawning since she's so familiar with the dungeon.

In the last panel is Oona pointing at Blackwing? If so, could Oona be referring to Blackwing as a monster that Monster Hollow has made and better than previous monsters? The exclamation marks indicate more stress than her dialog in the previous panel although she is prone to using them quite often.

[Edric O]

Wait... why is everyone talking about the Order possibly being plane shifted or teleported (and the evidence against this)? I thought the function of the Entrance Trap was obvious: You get teleported if you step through it while it's active. The corridor with the yellowish floor, where the Order is currently located, is the one actually inside the mountain, the one actually behind the door. So the Order didn't go anywhere. They are exactly where they think they are. The corridor with the dark(er) green floor, matching the first few meters behind the entrance, isn't actually inside the mountain - it's in a different location, and you get teleported to that location when you pass through the active trap. Also, the active trap makes you see this remote location when looking in from the entrance, rather than seeing what is actually there (the yellowish floor).

So all of the dungeons that Team Evil cleared, are not actually located inside the mountain. They are places that Team Evil got teleported to. The Gate isn't at the end of any of the dungeons because the dungeons are not what is actually behind the doors. The first people to see what is actually behind one of the doors are the Order.

Now that the trap is active again, when Team Evil opens the door they will see what the Order originally saw - the corridor with the dark(er) green floor - and they will get teleported into that corridor by the trap. The Order will see them vanish as they walk past the trap line. Then the Order will realize what's going on (once the initial shock wears off), they will explore the real corridor that they are in, and they will find... something. Not the Gate, I assume, but something else that's actually hidden inside this mountain. Presumably something related to the mysterious voices that took Lien and O-Chul.

[skim172]

Xykon says they killed the monsters and took their stuff.

Doesn't seem to add up. The first tomb dungeon took Team Evil "a few hours" yet this one apparently was... not much of anything?

Maybe they didn't clear out the dungeon entirely, just the first few encounters.

[Algeh]

So...MITD doesn't seem to be with Team Evil for this one. Wonder what he's up to and why they didn't bring him along?

[ebarde]

Because they just sorta stumbled into Durkon, there wasn't any time to get MITD cause Xykon was caught by surprise. Considering how good Xykon's hearing is and how unaware MITD usually behaves, I assume he's not aware there's a fight going on.

[facw]

Maybe they didn't clear out the dungeon entirely, just the first few encounters.

Seems very likely that they had one encounter, and as soon as that finished, Greyview was able to let them know they were in the wrong place so they backed out.

[Fyraltari]

Somehow, with some compromise, I feel these three parties could actually get stuff done.
You quote me but attribute it to danielxcutter.

I will ask you to explain this.
How do you make this equivalences?

Roy:
-Soon: the Lawful Good leader of his party, mostly mêlée-oriented.
-Shoulderpad Guy: mostly by process of elimination, but seems mêlée oriented at least.
-Nale: leader of his group, Lawful(?) Evil, moulded by his adversarial relationship with his father, tries to kill his brother (Roy is haunted by failing to save his), self-centered (Roy has trouble paying attention to people who aren't related to his problems).

Haley:
-Girard: Sneaky-type second-in-command with a stormy relationship with his leader.
-Jacinda: Sneaky-type (not much to go on with).
-Sabine: Sneaky-type second-in-command.

Elan:
-Serini: most good-natured member of the team, wishes everyone would just get along.
-Tarquin: Literally just older Elan but older, a control-freak and mêlée-based.
-Thog: childish member of the team.

Vaarsuvius:
-Dorukan: Wizard best mentality, magic solves everything mentality.
-Laurin: Magic user who favors a "more firepower" approach to combat.
-Zz'dtri: taciturn (vs loquacious) elf wizard.

Durkon:
-Lirian: Divine caster.
-Malack: a cleric very devoted to his deity and friends
-Hilgya: Dwarf cleric of an ennemy god, takes Durkon's exact opposite attitude when it comes to dwarfdom.

Belkar:
-Kraagor: mostly elimination, mêlée-based and seems toenjoy fighting.
-Miron: lackadaisical, greedy, cruel (is willing to torture somebody to no-apprent gain, at least).
-Yikyik: Scaly Belkar.

[danielxcutter]

Wait... why is everyone talking about the Order possibly being plane shifted or teleported (and the evidence against this)? I thought the function of the Entrance Trap was obvious: You get teleported if you step through it while it's active. The corridor with the yellowish floor, where the Order is currently located, is the one actually inside the mountain, the one actually behind the door. So the Order didn't go anywhere. They are exactly where they think they are. The corridor with the dark(er) green floor, matching the first few meters behind the entrance, isn't actually inside the mountain - it's in a different location, and you get teleported to that location when you pass through the active trap. Also, the active trap makes you see this remote location when looking in from the entrance, rather than seeing what is actually there (the yellowish floor).

So all of the dungeons that Team Evil cleared, are not actually located inside the mountain. They are places that Team Evil got teleported to. The Gate isn't at the end of any of the dungeons because the dungeons are not what is actually behind the doors. The first people to see what is actually behind one of the doors are the Order.

Now that the trap is active again, when Team Evil opens the door they will see what the Order originally saw - the corridor with the dark(er) green floor - and they will get teleported into that corridor by the trap. The Order will see them vanish as they walk past the trap line. Then the Order will realize what's going on (once the initial shock wears off), they will explore the real corridor that they are in, and they will find... something. Not the Gate, I assume, but something else that's actually hidden inside this mountain. Presumably something related to the mysterious voices that took Lien and O-Chul.

Because Team Evil in general have enough good saves that they'd have made one by now. Teleportation is basically always Will(negates) and both Xykon and Redcloak should have at least good bonuses, even if we ignore the MitD. And even if they blew every single save so far they'd know they had a saving throw; only certain effects like scrying spells don't let the target know they made one I believe.

[Psychronia]

I can't tell whether or not Xykon has sussed this out and just doesn't care or isn't showing his hand.

And that's kinda scaring me.

[danielxcutter]

I can't tell whether or not Xykon has sussed this out and just doesn't care or isn't showing his hand.

And that's kinda scaring me.

First of all TIL that "sus" precedes Among Us.

Second, while Xykon has said "Don't confuse not caring with not knowing" and his Bluff modifier is likely in the low stratosphere, I can't see why he'd be hiding that. It's certainly fair to say that we likely wouldn't be able to tell until he says so, of course...

[TuringTest]

Without reading any of the comments, here is my guess: In the upcoming comics, we will see Team Evil go in the same door as the heroes... and be seen and heard by the heroes... but they won't see nor hear them, as the "active trap" will make their side of the entrance connect with a different corridor/dungeon.

That *would* be an interesting scene, and it is a logical development of the events that have been set up so far.

However one thing I've learned these years is that The Giant never produces the predictable scenes that seem to me the next logical step, and comes up with alternative scenes which are equally or even more interesting :smallbiggrin:

[jayem]

First of all TIL that "sus" precedes Among Us.

Second, while Xykon has said "Don't confuse not caring with not knowing" and his Bluff modifier is likely in the low stratosphere, I can't see why he'd be hiding that. It's certainly fair to say that we likely wouldn't be able to tell until he says so, of course...

Xykon (ought to) have questions of his own about Redcloak.

[BarakDeathBlade]

A role that was addressed here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1040.html).

Which also answers an earlier question, no Team Evil didn't just clear a dungeon in 2 minutes. That takes several hours.

They went in, found big nasties, then Greyview found them, they dispelled the Silence, and pulled back out.

[Saint-Just]

Err... yes, he is. The disconnect is that his problem at hand is not the same as TE's problem at hand. His problem is that when the icy jaws of death come, there won't have been enough treats. Everything he is doing is at least ameliorating the problem by ensuring the continued arrival of treats.

Nod. Get treat.

Grey Wolf

It takes a wolf to understand a wolf.

[Ghosty]

I guess the Silence spell didn't really do much of anything, ah well.

Bonus strip material, with Greyview trying charades, and his silent approach causing one or more spells to fizzle.

I'm sure it'll be funny in the book.

[Peelee]

First of all TIL that "sus" precedes Among Us.

It doesn't. "Suss" does, but it means something different.

[Ghosty]

Because Team Evil in general have enough good saves that they'd have made one by now. Teleportation is basically always Will(negates) and both Xykon and Redcloak should have at least good bonuses, even if we ignore the MitD. And even if they blew every single save so far they'd know they had a saving throw; only certain effects like scrying spells don't let the target know they made one I believe.

Why must this particular effect require a save? There are involuntary magic effects in Stickworld that have not allowed a save, Familicide most notoriously. Why can't this hypothetical Teleportation effect operate similarly?

Agreed that one of them would have made a Will save by now, if there was one to make. Which could have led to more comedy...

You're right on Undeath; I just forgot about V's 2nd banned school. I will say though, on V's propensity to blow it when it counts on Touch spells, that V now, is a lot more willing to ask for help---with say, buffing up hir BAB---than s/he was in the past. So maybe that changes?

[Lemarc]

Because Team Evil in general have enough good saves that they'd have made one by now. Teleportation is basically always Will(negates) and both Xykon and Redcloak should have at least good bonuses, even if we ignore the MitD. And even if they blew every single save so far they'd know they had a saving throw; only certain effects like scrying spells don't let the target know they made one I believe.

Saves are optional in these situations. A DM setting a teleportation trap in a dungeon isn't going to worry about whether it fits the PHB spell, much less so a webcomic writer.

[dancrilis]

Because Team Evil in general have enough good saves that they'd have made one by now. Teleportation is basically always Will(negates) and both Xykon and Redcloak should have at least good bonuses, even if we ignore the MitD. And even if they blew every single save so far they'd know they had a saving throw; only certain effects like scrying spells don't let the target know they made one I believe.

If it is a permanent Gate then it would transport anyone who walked through it without a save - under that assumption Haley would have deactivated the Gate and it would now be resetting.


There are involuntary magic effects in Stickworld that have not allowed a save, Familicide most notoriously.
We don't know if Familicide allowed a save.

Edit: A more direct example is Teleportation Circle does not allow a save.

[ManuelSacha]

Redcloak's amazing deduction skills kinda scared me a bit, at first.
He's so close to the solution, that I started worrying for the MitD, thinking he might be in trouble.
Then again... is he?
Can Redcloak and/or Xykon be a threat to the MitD?
Because, if they can hurt him but they can't kill him, by finding out about his ruse, they would accomplish only two things.
The MitD would leave Team Evil (and either side with O-Chul's side or just leave) and Xykon will know that they wasted time.
But that last thing is not an issue anymore.
Stalling them has worked. The OotS is here.
And even if they found a way to figure out which entrances they didn't cover (unlikely)... it wouldn't change anything.

[mjasghar]

Just reviewing again - seems from the looks on panel 6 that their might still be some bad blood between Roy and Durkon, which is to be expected but nice artistic touch I think.

I think it’s just a grim set to his mouth because they’re getting ready
Minrah has a similar expression

[dancrilis]

I think it’s just a grim set to his mouth because they’re getting ready
Minrah has a similar expression

It is more the eyebrows that I am noticing.

For instance Durkon's expression here (panel 8) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1218.html) is very similiar (not exactly the same) but without the eyebrows, and in theory he was getting ready there also.

The Giant seems to use eyebrows (and other eye related lines) to convey a lot of emotion - and he included them on Durkon and Roy on panel 6 but on nobody else.

Now maybe I am seeing author intention that is not present and it is unlikely to ever be spelled out 'they were frowning at each other' but my thinking is we have not heard the last of Durkon's venture into diplomacy and the is The Giant is including a subtle hint here to that discussion.

[bunsen_h]

Wait... why is everyone talking about the Order possibly being plane shifted or teleported (and the evidence against this)? I thought the function of the Entrance Trap was obvious: You get teleported if you step through it while it's active. The corridor with the yellowish floor, where the Order is currently located, is the one actually inside the mountain, the one actually behind the door. So the Order didn't go anywhere. They are exactly where they think they are. The corridor with the dark(er) green floor, matching the first few meters behind the entrance, isn't actually inside the mountain - it's in a different location, and you get teleported to that location when you pass through the active trap. Also, the active trap makes you see this remote location when looking in from the entrance, rather than seeing what is actually there (the yellowish floor).

Is it possible that rather than a teleport or a portal, the trap does some other kind of "spatial manipulation to connect regions of multidimensional stone" that doesn't permit a save, and is generally non-obvious to a high-level lich and cleric? Such that the properties of the multidimensional stone don't interfere with people being within range of Telepathic Bond?

[danielxcutter]

I suppose a portal-type would work. Probably not Gate since that explicitly only opens up to another plane and I don’t think Serini had enough resources to make several dozen demiplanes.

[ReaderAt2046]

In mechanic terms, it is in fact unlikely, if not flat out “rocks fall everyone dies” levels of impossible for the Order to take on Xykon even now because of the sheer number of their options that he’s immune to. In Start of Darkness we’ve seen he has a ring that makes him immune to positive energy(so no Heal bombs), he’s got an item that makes him immune to fire and as a lich he’s also immune to cold and electricity damage, undead can’t be sneak attacked and he has so much DR Haley or Belkar would have trouble so much scratching him. Oh, and he has Boots of Free Movement so the Hand spells don’t work and throwing him into a Gate isn’t an option either.

Roy might be able to pull a Spellsplinter Maneuver once at the climax, but if my suspicions are correct and it works similarly to Mage Slayer or the like then only narrative causality would make it work; even Durkula was able to cast through it once and Xykon’s much stronger.

And this is all before the rest of Team Evil. It’s why I’m betting that Xykon gets taken out by somebody Bull Rushing him into a rift and getting eaten by the Snarl; because there is practically no way for him to lose otherwise.

If this was an actual game and I saw his stats, I’d call BS.

Remember, Xykon is an epic-level (i.e. level 21 minimum) PC build with a +4 LA template and full appropriate wealth. That means he's a minimum of six (effective) levels higher than the sub-epic OOTS PCs. That is not a fight that is supposed to be winnable by standard CR rules.

[WanderingMist]

Why must this particular effect require a save? There are involuntary magic effects in Stickworld that have not allowed a save, Familicide most notoriously. Why can't this hypothetical Teleportation effect operate similarly?

We don't know if Familicide allowed a save. Remember, V used Disjunction on the Dragon's Anti-Magic Field without a second thought, and that only has a 1% chance per caster level of working on those.

It is more the eyebrows that I am noticing.

For instance Durkon's expression here (panel 8) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1218.html) is very similar (not exactly the same) but without the eyebrows, and in theory he was getting ready there also.

The Giant seems to use eyebrows (and other eye related lines) to convey a lot of emotion - and he included them on Durkon and Roy on panel 6 but on nobody else.

Now maybe I am seeing author intention that is not present and it is unlikely to ever be spelled out 'they were frowning at each other' but my thinking is we have not heard the last of Durkon's venture into diplomacy and the is The Giant is including a subtle hint here to that discussion.

All Durkon did there was one Heal spell, and he had the eyebrows when he was looking back to see if Team Evil was following them yet, but not when he turned back to Roy.

[dancrilis]

All Durkon did there was one Heal spell, and he had the eyebrows when he was looking back to see if Team Evil was following them yet, but not when he turned back to Roy.

Yes - effectively eyebrows can be used when The Giant wants to get across feeling without dialogue.

[Petrocorus]

Roy:
-Soon: the Lawful Good leader of his party, mostly mêlée-oriented.
-Shoulderpad Guy: mostly by process of elimination, but seems mêlée oriented at least.
-Nale: leader of his group, Lawful(?) Evil, moulded by his adversarial relationship with his father, tries to kill his brother (Roy is haunted by failing to save his), self-centered (Roy has trouble paying attention to people who aren't related to his problems).

Haley:
-Girard: Sneaky-type second-in-command with a stormy relationship with his leader.
-Jacinda: Sneaky-type (not much to go on with).
-Sabine: Sneaky-type second-in-command.

Elan:
-Serini: most good-natured member of the team, wishes everyone would just get along.
-Tarquin: Literally just older Elan but older, a control-freak and mêlée-based.
-Thog: childish member of the team.

Vaarsuvius:
-Dorukan: Wizard best mentality, magic solves everything mentality.
-Laurin: Magic user who favors a "more firepower" approach to combat.
-Zz'dtri: taciturn (vs loquacious) elf wizard.

Durkon:
-Lirian: Divine caster.
-Malack: a cleric very devoted to his deity and friends
-Hilgya: Dwarf cleric of an ennemy god, takes Durkon's exact opposite attitude when it comes to dwarfdom.

Belkar:
-Kraagor: mostly elimination, mêlée-based and seems toenjoy fighting.
-Miron: lackadaisical, greedy, cruel (is willing to torture somebody to no-apprent gain, at least).
-Yikyik: Scaly Belkar.
I disagree with several of this associations.
We could categorize them by their D&D In Combat party role, or by their TVTropes Five-Man Band roles, and we would get different grouping.
There are clearly similarities between the members of each party, and the thing is you can find similarities between one member f a team and several members of another team. Tarquin for instance is the party leader (apparently) and the big melee fighter of his team, just like Roy, but has an outlook like Elan, and a morality closer to Belkar.


Remember, Xykon is an epic-level (i.e. level 21 minimum) PC build with a +4 LA template and full appropriate wealth. That means he's a minimum of six (effective) levels higher than the sub-epic OOTS PCs. That is not a fight that is supposed to be winnable by standard CR rules.
Level doesn't directly translate into CR.

[hroþila]

I disagree with several of this associations.
We could categorize them by their D&D In Combat party role, or by their TVTropes Five-Man Band roles, and we would get different grouping.
There are clearly similarities between the members of each party, and the thing is you can find similarities between one member f a team and several members of another team. Tarquin for instance is the party leader (apparently) and the big melee fighter of his team, just like Roy, but has an outlook like Elan, and a morality closer to Belkar.
You're absolutely right, but then again, that is the point, isn't it? The evil opposites thing wasn't that good of a fit in the first place, and Nale would have been able to spin reality the same way for it to apply at least as well to any Evil party he had put together.

[Fyraltari]

I disagree with several of this associations.
We could categorize them by their D&D In Combat party role, or by their TVTropes Five-Man Band roles, and we would get different grouping.
Which is why I went by both to get them with whoever they have more in common.

There are clearly similarities between the members of each party, and the thing is you can find similarities between one member f a team and several members of another team. Tarquin for instance is the party leader (apparently) and the big melee fighter of his team, just like Roy, but has an outlook like Elan, and a morality closer to Belkar.
According to the Giant, Tarquin isn't the leader of the Vector Legion. His morals are pretty different from Belkar, too. Belkar is all Id, doing whatever he feels like at any given moment not caring for others in the slightest. Tarquin is a control freak who wants to be the center of attention at all time.

Edit:

You're absolutely right, but then again, that is the point, isn't it? The evil opposites thing wasn't that good of a fit in the first place, and Nale would have been able to spin reality the same way for it to apply at least as well to any Evil party he had put together.
Yup.

[Saint-Just]

Level doesn't directly translate into CR.

You probably meant to say level adjustment doesn't translate into CR, which is true. Because levels in any PC class do translate into CR on 1:1 basis. So we are still looking at 21+ from character levels and 2 more from template.

As usual that doesn't mean that any creature with CR of 23 is incredibly hard for the party as presented, but power and defences of Xykon has been already addressed above without reference to his CR.

[Ghosty]

If Familicide allowed a save, wouldn't one of Girard's group have rolled a 20?

Also, narratively, the spell is counterproductive if it allowed a save. Let's kill everybody who could have conceivably been related to an enemy of mine, so I can be safe...except for 5 percent of that vast pool of entities, all of whom now are titanically pissed off at me, for really good reason.

[ebarde]

I think Tarquin is more akin to their PR guy while Shoulderpads is more of the battlefield leader

[dancrilis]

If Familicide allowed a save, wouldn't one of Girard's group have rolled a 20?

Also, narratively, the spell is counterproductive if it allowed a save. Let's kill everybody who could have conceivably been related to an enemy of mine, so I can be safe...except for 5 percent of that vast pool of entities, all of whom now are titanically pissed off at me, for really good reason.

Spells can still kill you if you pass your save.

[arverst_aegnar]

If Familicide allowed a save, wouldn't one of Girard's group have rolled a 20?

Also, narratively, the spell is counterproductive if it allowed a save. Let's kill everybody who could have conceivably been related to an enemy of mine, so I can be safe...except for 5 percent of that vast pool of entities, all of whom now are titanically pissed off at me, for really good reason.

Haha.

It occurs to me that a key weakness of Familicide as a defense is that someone doesn't need to be related to your target, or one of their relations, to be motivated to avenge or resurrect them. It's ... i don't think ironic is the word, but interesting that Girard's defense had the exact same weakness (dependence on blood relations), which made it all the more effective against him.

Very natural, considering the narrative purpose of Familicide, and that its narrative purpose is its only purpose, but i hadn't noticed that particular element before.

[drazen]

We don't know if Familicide allowed a save. Remember, V used Disjunction on the Dragon's Anti-Magic Field without a second thought, and that only has a 1% chance per caster level of working on those.


Spliced V had a level estimate of something ridiculous like 66 or 78 if I recall.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Also I think Xykon might be having actual fun here. It turns out Kraagor’s tomb, an infinitely regenerating dungeon, has been his true hope ever sincehe lost the joy of coffee.
I wonder if they could just leave him here and stop worrying.
I mean, Xykon’s only wanted to take over the world because that’s just what villains do this whole time. But he’s actually happy here! This is the first time we’ve seen him enjoy himself for over a day at most!
Once the Order sorts out the whole "one Gate barely holding a reality-slaying monster at bay" thing, they can leave Xykon here to dungeon-delve to his heart's content.
Unless Roy wants to do something about that blood oath I guess.



Nope, it is confirmation that the Monster in the Darkness marked a random door as "already seen".
Fyraltari was presumably referring to Oona's comment about "having new monsters behind a door," which Redcloak described as "regenerating," which makes it sound like the monsters are either being generated magically or trolls.



*Hell parties that suspiciously resonnate with each other:
Soon/Shoulderpad Guy?/Roy/Nale
Girard/Jacinda/Haley/Sabine
Serini/Tarquin/Elan/Thog
Dorukan/Laurin/Vaarsuvius/Zz'dtri
Lirian/Malack/Durkon/Hilgya
Kraagor/Miron/Belkar/Yikyik
There are a certain number of roles that need to be filled, and only so many ways to fill each. Combine with characterization needs—both in terms of how each character's personality needs to fit their role in some regard (whether it's embracing it a la Thog or rejecting it a la Roy) and in terms of intra-party dynamics—and this level of similarity isn't all very surprising...especially when you consider both rough fits (e.g. Hilgya and Malack, or the leaders we know anything about) and the fairly obscure characters (e.g. half of the wizards and the leader we don't know anything about)

Also, one of those six was initially constructed in deliberate opposition to another, which makes the set as a whole lot more cohesive than it would be otherwise.

Imagine that the Stick, Scribble, and Sinister parties were each 1 cohesive with each other. (Yes, quantifying something like that is kinda silly.) The average cohesion would be (3*1)/3=1. Obviously.

Now imagine that we add the Linear party, saying that it also has 1 cohesive with the Scribble and Sinister parties, but 7 with the Stick party. There are six ways to compare two of these four parties, five of which have a cohesion value of 1 and one with a cohesion value of 7. The average would be (7+[5*1])/6=2.

Obviously, if we were to assign such similarity/cohesion values to all six sets of parties the results wouldn't be that extreme, but extreme numbers make it easier to see what the eff this crazy guy is talking about.




...
So all of the dungeons that Team Evil cleared, are not actually located inside the mountain. They are places that Team Evil got teleported to. The Gate isn't at the end of any of the dungeons because the dungeons are not what is actually behind the doors. The first people to see what is actually behind one of the doors are the Order.
...
An interesting idea. It doesn't work well with the saves most teleportation spells allow (even if Team Evil didn't have demigodlike saves, they'd roll a 20 eventually), but it's neat.



First of all TIL that "sus" precedes Among Us.
Reminds me of Something Witty Entertainment lamenting that everyone thought their use of "sus" in SAOA episode 15 was an Among Us reference, even though they wrote the script months before Among Us was really a thing.



Remember, Xykon is an epic-level (i.e. level 21 minimum) PC build with a +4 LA template and full appropriate wealth. That means he's a minimum of six (effective) levels higher than the sub-epic OOTS PCs. That is not a fight that is supposed to be winnable by standard CR rules.
That's not how level adjustment works.

A human level 21* sorcerer would have an ECL of 21 (meaning they gain XP and whatnot as a 21st-level character, since they are one) and a CR of 21. The lich template's +4 LA means that a human lich with 21 levels of sorcerer would have an ECL of 25 (gaining XP more slowly than a 21st-level character), but the template only increases CR by 2, for a CR of 23. The level adjustment is higher than the CR adjustment because many lich abilities are (theoretically) more useful to a PC than a monster.

I'm of the opinion that maximized energy drain (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html) was probably cast with a 12th-level spell slot rather than a 9th-level one and an invisible metamagic rod, but that would require him to take Improved Spell Capacity three times, for a total of four known Epic feats, requiring at least 26 levels of sorcerer (21st and 24th level, plus bonus feats at 23rd and 26th (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/classProgressions.htm#epicSorcerer)). But most people consider that a few levels too much, as if a 21st-level lich is a more suitable opponent for a mid/high-level party.

Anyways, I think a more likely ECL/CR for Xykon would be 30/28.



Spliced V had a level estimate of something ridiculous like 66 or 78 if I recall.
Were all of their levels added together? I assumed that V just used the caster level of whichever individual spirit they got a given spell from.

[spruce56]

It is good to see Xykon again, he is a very entertaining big-bad. I know he's been in a few strips recently, but this group, Xykon, RC, Oona and Greywind play off each other nicely. They're just really good villains and I love this comic :smallredface:

[hroþila]

Also, narratively, the spell is counterproductive if it allowed a save. Let's kill everybody who could have conceivably been related to an enemy of mine, so I can be safe...except for 5 percent of that vast pool of entities, all of whom now are titanically pissed off at me, for really good reason.
That's only assuming that the actual purpose of the spell (both why Haerta researched it and why V cast it) was to kill all your enemies so you'd be safe from retribution, but there's reason to question that. Even without a save, the spell completely fails to do that: non-blood relations of all kinds are spared. Tarquin for example survived and would potentially (if he was a different person) have been perfectly capable of seeking revenge for Penelope. Friends are entirely unaffected, no matter how close. Simply put, the spell can't do what V claimed they wanted it to do (ensure safety by preventing revenge).

The only purpose that makes sense in practice is disproportionate retribution, and I think the comic makes it clear that this was V's actual motivation ("This—and no less—is the price of threatening my family"). All that stuff about protecting their family and ensuring it wouldn't happen again was just a rationalization.

[Fyraltari]

The only purpose that makes sense in practice is disproportionate retribution, and I think the comic makes it clear that this was V's actual motivation ("This—and no less—is the price of threatening my family"). All that stuff about protecting their family and ensuring it wouldn't happen again was just a rationalization.

Honestly I think the real purpose of the spell is to do as much destruction as you can because you can, as an ego thing.

That reminds me of the answer the villain of the French audio show Adoprixtoxis gave when asked why he blew up a planet when he didn't need to do that: "I had a brand new space station. I wanted to see how powerful it could be. When you buy a brand new sport car, it's not to drive at 50 km/h, you want to see what it's got under the hood, don't you?"

[Thermophille]

We don't know if Familicide allowed a save.


So, save partially negates? Die if you fail the save, and deal 10d6 damage if you succeed?

It would make sense then for all of Girard's family to have died than, since it's reasonable that the 5% who rolled a nat 20 on their save couldn't take the damage. Of course, that means that 5% of the dragons targeted would have probably survived, but as someone else mentioned, I don't think V was actually worried about that bit.

Of course, that raises the question of what spell level that was... She was the strongest of 3 epic-level spellcasters, but I don't know enough about 3.5 epic rules to say more. Though, if she's level 25 (for sake of argument), the other two were level 22, and Varsavius was level 15, that puts the total ECL at 84, or 84% chance to break the antimagic field.

[ebarde]

I feel like familicide seems way too drastic to allow for a save, but idk. I mean, V was pretty sure it would and that Black Dragon's whole lineage even though dragons tend to have really good saves.

[Goblin_Priest]

I have to admit, this strip makes me feel sympathy for Redcloak. As the only one on Team Evil with a functioning brain cell, he reminds me of the kid with glasses who always did all the work on group projects in school.

Well, okay, Grayview may be reasonably intelligent, but he seems to be applying that more to Russian novel style quips than to solving the problem at hand.

Respectfully,

Brian P.


He has behaved quite intelligently when dwarves was hiding, and I do not see how he could demonstrate his intelligence in other strips. I hope you don't expect him to think for Xykon and\or Oona?


I'm honestly starting to think Oona knows something is up and just doesn't care. Like, I don't think she wouldn't notice that the monsters shouldn't be respawning since she's so familiar with the dungeon.

Oona and Greyview probably don't care all that much. They've been repeatedly shown saying how much they don't care. Oona is specifically there to make sure TE doesn't succeed too much at clearing the dungeons. Greyview's just doing what he's told, with no apparent ambition or aspiration of his own. Neither are sufficiently motivated to think too hard about what's going on, they are just content to tag along and kill stuff.


Agree with your last---though I think I'd have flipped the table and left before then, Settlers of Catan-style. Still fun to read and discuss, obviously.

Sunburst, Disintegrate, Undeath to Death, Destruction (?), Durkon's Hammer, Roy's Sword, the Paladins Smiting Evil if they ever show up again. The Order doesn't lack for things to cause damage to Xykon. The question, obviously, is how to do enough damage to turn him off before he totally mows down their team. It's a tall order.

On another point, I don't think killing RedCloak is a reasonable possibility. Thor et al, need a 9th level spell from that quiddity. RedCloak is it for that possibility. Kill him and Rez him---assuming he even comes back, or that he's killed in a manner where Rez is possible---and will he lose enough XP to drop below 17th Level?

Given the number of dungeons that have been cleared, and the fact that Xykon is gaining XP, I think it fairly likely that Redcloak might now be at least level 18. And if slain and called for a resurrect, I doubt TDO will go "yo, it's chill, you can just hang around here".

[bunsen_h]

Hypothesis: Ordinarily, the "trap" for each doorway maintains a spatial congruence within the multidimensional stone, connecting the entrance to a dungeon full of high-level monsters. This isn't a trap in the normal sense; there isn't a saving throw, and it isn't affecting beings who pass by -- it's affecting the dungeon.

Disabling the "trap" as Haley has done, using the skills of a rogue, changes the congruence, connecting to a different route within the multidimensional stone. We'll see what that contains.

Disabling the "trap" by brute force, such as by turning off all of the magic, either connects you to something like the Tomb of Horrors (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomb_of_Horrors) or sets you up in some closed dimensional pocket. Or causes multiple dimensions of stone to merge, with you in the middle with no magic. Oops.

[Ruck]

It doesn't. "Suss" does, but it means something different.

This "suss" is the form Psychronia used.

Also, "sus" as slang is something I've heard before Among Us.

[mjasghar]

The various groups are variations on each role
Malak was pure caster - practically a specialist priest, Hilgya is an attack caster (flame strikes), Durkon is heal/buff and then melee
Nale and Elan combine casting and unarmoured melee in different ways - sorc/fighter versus Bard. Ironically Elan is more optimised by taking a prestige class to up his melee whilst mainly being a support bard
Thog is a pure barbarian type who dumped Int - ironically this contrasts with Roy who used those extra feats to make himself a better fighter.
Sabine is a special case in that she has outsider casting abilities. It is worth noting that Haley is actually mirroring her by branching into using magical items.
The rest have appeared too rarely to be definitive about their methodology

[theinsulabot]

Haley is truly a heroine, you go elan, unintentionally seduce the strongest woman in all OOTS!

[facw]

unintentionally seduce the strongest woman in all OOTS!
Laurin Shattersmith? She does seem like she would appreciate respect for female adventurers, but I'm not sure it would seduce her...

[theinsulabot]

Laurin Shattersmith? She does seem like she would appreciate respect for female adventurers, but I'm not sure it would seduce her...

She was a juliateer when she was younger. You know a well rolled “I happen to think independent women are sexy” roll would be right in her strike zone!

[danielxcutter]

Re: Xykon CR - Xykon is already at minimum CR 23 and likely even higher than that; unless going into rather unlikely scenarios it’s entirely possible for him to be at like CR 28+. Even if CR isn’t always 100% accurate I’ve already pointed out how absurdly resistant Xykon is to pretty much everything the Order can throw at him and that’s not even including the rest of Team Evil.

[dancrilis]

So, save partially negates? Die if you fail the save, and deal 10d6 damage if you succeed?

Using the Slay Seed for instance you could have a spell that does 100d4 negative levels on a failed save - so unless your opponent has over 100 HD they will die unless they have protections from such an attack, you could also slap on a dispelling effect to remove there protections and a similiarly overpowered damage affect in case they are naturally immune to negative levels.
This would be fairly over the top but it could be stated up, creating it so that it doesn't allow a save I am not sure is possible (probably is but I am not seeing it).

A different example - if Vaarsuvius hits a level 1 commoner with disintegrate then whether the commoner passes the save or not they are likely a pile of ash, Epic spells can (in theory) do that to much more powerful beings.



Of course, that raises the question of what spell level that was... She was the strongest of 3 epic-level spellcasters, but I don't know enough about 3.5 epic rules to say more. Though, if she's level 25 (for sake of argument), the other two were level 22, and Varsavius was level 15, that puts the total ECL at 84, or 84% chance to break the antimagic field.
We don't know how the soul splice works caster level might be added together like that and leave a ~15% change of the disjunction failing, or each soul could still be fairly distinct and spells would be cast at the epic casters singular caster level, my personal take is that The Gaint has houseruled that the 9th level spell merely beats the 6th level spell no roll needed and so it doesn't matter.

[Lemarc]

Laurin Shattersmith? She does seem like she would appreciate respect for female adventurers, but I'm not sure it would seduce her...

In fairness it's not at all certain that Laurin Shattersmith exists anymore (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html).

[danielxcutter]

Didn’t the Giant say something about not sticking closely to the rules when doing Familicide or something? To cast that as a full-round action without burning tons of XP and hit points would put that in something like at least triple digits.

[Shining Wrath]

The primary "evil opposite" trope was Elan versus Nale. For comic effect, ZZ'dtri versus Vaarsuvious, and Thog versus Roy, and so on - but those pairings were secondary to the Giant's tale, IMNHO. The narrative was "Elan raised by mom, turns out Elan; Nale raised by Tarquin, turns out Nale", and Tarquin's inability to deal with his lack of control of either.

IIRC Nale actually set out to assemble an evil opposites team - and therefore, the degree to which the Linear Guild was a true "opposite" is in part a measure of Nale's competence. Is anyone here going to stand up for Nale as competent? Enjoys sound of crickets

[dancrilis]

IIRC Nale actually set out to assemble an evil opposites team - and therefore, the degree to which the Linear Guild was a true "opposite" is in part a measure of Nale's competence. Is anyone here going to stand up for Nale as competent? Enjoys sound of crickets
In fairness if Eugene hadn't prodded Roy with prophecy then his initial plan would have worked, his plan at Cliffport did work, his plan in Azure city almost worked except for the unexpected arrival of Elan and Thog - and even then might have worked except that Vaarsuvius thought that Haley might have some restraints (although he was likely lucky they couldn't dispel his magic), he operated under Tarquin's nose for a decent while despite an active bounty out on him and involving Tarquin's wife in his plans in a city with a lot of precautions against interlopers.

Not a bad run really.

[danielxcutter]

The primary "evil opposite" trope was Elan versus Nale. For comic effect, ZZ'dtri versus Vaarsuvious, and Thog versus Roy, and so on - but those pairings were secondary to the Giant's tale, IMNHO. The narrative was "Elan raised by mom, turns out Elan; Nale raised by Tarquin, turns out Nale", and Tarquin's inability to deal with his lack of control of either.

IIRC Nale actually set out to assemble an evil opposites team - and therefore, the degree to which the Linear Guild was a true "opposite" is in part a measure of Nale's competence. Is anyone here going to stand up for Nale as competent? Enjoys sound of crickets

He certainly did manage to slay Malack and he's not entirely incompetent. I think the better word might be ineffectual; adventurers of their level aren't really that common, so if Nale hadn't been so obsessed with his brother and getting out of the shadow of his father he might have been rather more of a threat.

Speaking of which, I do not believe it exonerates him in the slightest, but I think I can see why living with Tarquin made Nale so obsessed with getting recognition.

[Riftwolf]

Laurin Shattersmith?

You misspelled 'Haerta'

[Ghosty]

You misspelled 'Haerta'

Did she ever get scooped back up in a bonus strip?

[Fyraltari]

You misspelled 'Haerta'

I'm afraid it's actually spelled T-I-A-M-A-T.

[dancrilis]

...strongest woman in all OOTS!

Laurin Shattersmith?

You misspelled 'Haerta'

I'm afraid it's actually spelled T-I-A-M-A-T.

None of those three are actually in the Order of the Stick - there is an argument for Vaarsuvius (depending on how you intrepret some of the Giant's comments over the years) and an argument for Minrah (depending on if she counts as a member of the Order - but I believe The Giant has said she is not).
Even if you include those two there is little to indicate that they are have a higher strength score then Haley.

If you want to go with Laurin and Tiamat when there is nothing to indicate they have a higher strength score then Haley either, and Haerta likely has a strength score of 0.

[Peelee]

None of those three are actually in the Order of the Stick

So you're coming to the defense of the weakest woman in OOTS, then?

[dancrilis]

So you're coming to the defense of the weakest woman in OOTS, then?

Technically I suppose I am coming to the defence of the strongest woman in the Order of the Stick (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0235.html).

[Cazero]

If you want to go with Laurin and Tiamat when there is nothing to indicate they have a higher strenght score then Haley either, and Haerta likely has a strenght score of 0.
You might have a point about Laurin, but Tiamat is the queen of all dragons and a goddess, so you're looking at a STR score of at least 40. I doubt Haley is even close to that.

[Fyraltari]

Haley is truly a heroine, you go elan, unintentionally seduce the strongest woman in all OOTS!


None of those three are actually in the Order of the Stick
They are indeed not. But they are indeed in OOTS.

[dancrilis]

They are indeed not. But they are indeed in OOTS.

The Order of the Stick is both the name of the party and the name of the comic - so not sure what you mean by OOTS.
https://i.giantitp.com/comics/Comics_Head_OOTS.gif

[Goblin_Priest]

Re: Xykon CR - Xykon is already at minimum CR 23 and likely even higher than that; unless going into rather unlikely scenarios it’s entirely possible for him to be at like CR 28+. Even if CR isn’t always 100% accurate I’ve already pointed out how absurdly resistant Xykon is to pretty much everything the Order can throw at him and that’s not even including the rest of Team Evil.

We constantly see Xykon getting his ass handed to him. Destroyed at the start, nearly destroyed in the Throne Room. Then, at the very least, frequently receiving damage. From Roy, Darth V, Durkon, and so on.

Does he have a lot of resistances? Sure. Not immune to everything, though. Stuff like disintegrate still work, spells specific against undead, spells that are even stronger against undead, spells that deal sonic damage, acid damage. They have DR, but still only gets the sorcerer's d4 HP if I remember correctly. And even with epic levels, most spells cap at 10dX damage, or 20dX for the better ones, plus taxing epic spell slots if you are empowering them or such. As a sorcerer, he's also quite limited in his selection.

He's certainly powerful. But this whole "so strong he's invincible"? I'm not buying it.

[dancrilis]

They have DR, but still only gets the sorcerer's d4 HP if I remember correctly.



Lich

Hit Dice
Increase all current and future Hit Dice to d12s.
Source. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm)

But yes not invincible (although we don't know how many items he is protected from - some you listed might not work).

[Saint-Just]

They have DR, but still only gets the sorcerer's d4 HP if I remember correctly. And even with epic levels, most spells cap at 10dX damage, or 20dX for the better ones, plus taxing epic spell slots if you are empowering them or such. As a sorcerer, he's also quite limited in his selection.

He's certainly powerful. But this whole "so strong he's invincible"? I'm not buying it.

Undead, including liches exchange their dAny for for d12, so he has about thrice HP of a sorcerer his level.

Xykon is definitely not invincible, but I think people have sucessfully argued that he is significantly stronger than OotS. They will definitely be able to leave a scratch on him, many deep scratches, but killing him would require significant out-of-the-left-field tactics, or ridiculous luck, or some plot-driven unique circumstances (like the first Gate).

[Fyraltari]

The Order of the Stick is both the name of the party and the name of the comic - so not sure what you mean by OOTS.
https://i.giantitp.com/comics/Comics_Head_OOTS.gif

That's my point. You read "OOTS" as meaning the group when theinsulabot's post could as easily be read as referencing the comic. More easily actually, since "in all" is a bit much when talking about six people.

[Clistenes]

Xykon has a point... why should a powerful murderous psycho not become a dungeon delving adventurer? You get to horribly murder lots of creatures and loot their stuff, and people will still like you!

Yeah, brainy villains may enjoy the whole "making plans" thing, but Xykon would probably have lived a happier and more fulfilling life as a dungeon-delving adventurous murderhobo than he did as a miscreant...

[Fyraltari]

Xykon has a point... why should a powerful murderous psycho not become a dungeon delving adventurer?

I mean a cursary glance at the dungeon-delving adventuring profession indicates that most do.

[Alcore]

People saying that the telepathic link still working rules out the Order being in another dimension are missing the fact that the Giant will only abide by that rule if it's not a bother.

It also means that, even if, they are in another dimension they still count as being in this one. Official rules are scarce but overlapping dimensions is a thing in a few modules...

[Mordae]

It also means that, even if, they are in another dimension they still count as being in this one. Official rules are scarce but overlapping dimensions is a thing in a few modules...

You mean, multiple coterminous dimensions (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html)?

[ebarde]

Clearly this is a set-up to a Xykon redemption arc when he realizes his true passion in life is adventuring, and he joins the Order!

[dancrilis]

Clearly this is a set-up to a Xykon redemption arc when he realizes his true passion in life is adventuring, and he joins the Order!

He even supports Durkon here by pointing out how far the goblin people have come.

[danielxcutter]

Undead, including liches exchange their dAny for for d12, so he has about thrice HP of a sorcerer his level.

Xykon is definitely not invincible, but I think people have sucessfully argued that he is significantly stronger than OotS. They will definitely be able to leave a scratch on him, many deep scratches, but killing him would require significant out-of-the-left-field tactics, or ridiculous luck, or some plot-driven unique circumstances (like the first Gate).

Nitpick: he loses his Con score so the hit point difference can be made up with an Amulet of Health and stuff, but considering Xykon was like Venerable or something when he turned into a Lich he probably does have more HP than when he was alive, I dunno.

Also yeah that’s why I’m betting all my quatloos that Xykon gets shoved into a Rift and gets destroyed by the Snarl. It would be appropriate for the first encounter to end with him being thrown through a Gate as well as the last one, wouldn’t it?

[Thermophille]

Nitpick: he loses his Con score so the hit point difference can be made up with an Amulet of Health and stuff, but considering Xykon was like Venerable or something when he turned into a Lich he probably does have more HP than when he was alive, I dunno.

Also yeah that’s why I’m betting all my quatloos that Xykon gets shoved into a Rift and gets destroyed by the Snarl. It would be appropriate for the first encounter to end with him being thrown through a Gate as well as the last one, wouldn’t it?

I thought undead used their Cha modifier for hp, like in Pathfinder? Well, if not, that makes Xykon much more beatable.

Nah, if he got zapped out of reality, it would waste the forshadowing for his astral fortress. The Giant probably won't do much with the thing, but he's gotta do something, since Thor mentioned it specifically.

[danielxcutter]

I thought undead used their Cha modifier for hp, like in Pathfinder? Well, if not, that makes Xykon much more beatable.

Undead and constructs don't have a Con score and thus no bonus hit points. This has the unfortunate side effect of many undead monsters having way too much HD to rebuke while still being strong enough to contribute in a fight.


Nah, if he got zapped out of reality, it would waste the forshadowing for his astral fortress. The Giant probably won't do much with the thing, but he's gotta do something, since Thor mentioned it specifically.

Also what astral fortress - Redcloak has Xykon's phylactery, so it's totally irrelevant now.

[Thermophille]

This has the unfortunate side effect of many undead monsters having way too much HD to rebuke while still being strong enough to contribute in a fight.

Well, I guess it makes sense why they changed that bit in Pathfinder.




Also what astral fortress - Redcloak has Xykon's phylactery, so it's totally irrelevant now.

I dunno, if that were the case, I don't think it would have ever been mentioned again. Checkov's gun and all that.

[Peelee]

I dunno, if that were the case, I don't think it would have ever been mentioned again. Checkov's gun and all that.

Checkov's gun was a first-act placement. Xykon's fortress exists solely so he can think his phylactery is safe. Except for that sole reason, it is completely immaterial to the story.

[ebarde]

Maybe the Astral Fortress could get some other use, like the battlefield for a boss fight later down the line. I think that whatever threat Redcloak pulls using Xykon's phylactery is what's gonna matter more at the end, I think he might have some type of dead man's trigger thing going on somehow, although not sure on what that set-up would require.

[locksmith of lo]

or the sudden realization that he has been had, if he is destroyed and does not start to regenerate in his fortress. i think xykon gets destroyed, regenerates his head, his pylactery gets destroyed, and he is stuck as just a skull for colour commentary for a while before finally being finished off. :smallwink:

[ebarde]

What about a portal 2 situation and he's a begruding teammate cause he's just a defenseless head

[chrestomancy]

Just thinking about dungeon design and the restocking of monsters (wild speculation here). We don't know much yet - if that rune line is across the entrance of every door, or just this one. It could be this is the one and only secret route to Serini's dungeon control room. It could also be that every mini-dungeon has a permanent portal, and each also has a "straight through" path like the Order has just taken. But that's basically three ends of corridors - could there be a fourth end, so instead of one way in with two possible destinations, it's two corridors spliced together in the middle?

What if, when the "trap is set" (normal working), there's another entrance to the mini-dungeon located somewhere that dangerous high CR creatures live? That effectively, each mini-dungeon is a pitcher-plant style trap for monsters, where monsters can enter but not leave again. This would allow the dungeon to automatically restock itself. There would probably need to be some way to stop all these monsters from wandering out the doors and into the chasm, but that's probably true however the monsters are sourced.

I came up with that theory when considering how the order, from their newly-discovered tunnel, will interact should TE wander into the same door. I doubt TE will be able to see them, only the corridor into the dungeon. I also expect the order can still walk back across the line, effectively teleporting in from the perspective of TE.

[dancrilis]

We don't know much yet - if that rune line is across the entrance of every door, or just this one.

We don't know much but we do know that there is a rune line at more then merely this door, see here panel 7 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1219.html).

Seperately this might be looking bad for Belkar - if panel 6 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html) holds true then Roy could have him charge in the first round, thereby possibly not only triggering the trap but if Team Evil can't see the rest of the order leave him alone against them if the Order decide to not engage if they have time to rethink things.
I doubt Roy would do that - but will have to wait and see.

[danielxcutter]

We don't know much but we do know that there is a rune line at more then merely this door, see here panel 7 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1219.html).

Seperately this might be looking bad for Belkar - if panel 6 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html) holds true then Roy could have him charge in the first round, thereby possibly not only triggering the trap but if Team Evil can't see the rest of the order leave him alone against them if the Order decide to not engage if they have time to rethink things.
I doubt Roy would do that - but will have to wait and see.

Probably a different situation than the one considered, so different strategy.

[dancrilis]

Probably a different situation than the one considered, so different strategy.

But if the plan doesn''t involve them moving further into the complex then it seems like it would go as follows:
1. Team Evil opens the door.
2a. Order charges over the trap and engages.
or
2b. Team Evil dispel the protections they cast and begin to slaughter them at range.

Assuming that 2a is closer to the plan then 2b then Belkar charging and Roy moving to distrupt doesn't seem like that bad an opening.

Now maybe they do intend to move further into the complex in which case the trap is not relevant to the combat - but who knows at the moment.

[drazen]

Were all of their levels added together? I assumed that V just used the caster level of whichever individual spirit they got a given spell from.

Beats me, I'm not enough of a D&D expert to know. I'm familiar with basic RPG concepts from video games like Wizardry, but I'm mostly here for the story.

One of the splices was a sorcerer/archmage; did he cast as total level or just level of whichever class he was using?

My guess was that maybe there was some obtuse feat where V's casting was for total level rather than maximum class level, and that it just was silly broken when V's level was their own 13ish plus three 20+ epics.

Maybe I'm just dwelling too much on the fiends' "effective level" comment, but I took it to mean that whatever V did while spliced was going to be evaluated by game (world) mechanics at that absurdly high level.

[dancrilis]

Beats me, I'm not enough of a D&D expert to know. I'm familiar with basic RPG concepts from video games like Wizardry, but I'm mostly here for the story.

One of the splices was a sorcerer/archmage; did he cast as total level or just level of whichever class he was using?

My guess was that maybe there was some obtuse feat where V's casting was for total level rather than maximum class level, and that it just was silly broken when V's level was their own 13ish plus three 20+ epics.

Maybe I'm just dwelling too much on the fiends' "effective level" comment, but I took it to mean that whatever V did while spliced was going to be evaluated by game (world) mechanics at that absurdly high level.

Archmage stacks with Sorcerer but base classes don't stack like that.

So for instance a Wizard 20/Sorcerer 20/Cleric 20/Druid 20 is casting as a level 20 caster for any of their various classes (assuming no items, feats etc), they would have a character level of 80.
Meanwhile a Bard 20/Loremaster 10/Arcane Trickster 10 is casting as a level 40 character and is a level 40 character.

We don't know how the splice worked in relation to caster level but my assumption is that the souls acted as independent contractors loaning arcane power to the contractee rather then acting as if the contractee had gained all the levels naturally - and as such the wizard levels wouldn't stack (and the sorcerer archmage levels would also remain seperate).

[danielxcutter]

But if the plan doesn''t involve them moving further into the complex then it seems like it would go as follows:
1. Team Evil opens the door.
2a. Order charges over the trap and engages.
or
2b. Team Evil dispel the protections they cast and begin to slaughter them at range.

Assuming that 2a is closer to the plan then 2b then Belkar charging and Roy moving to distrupt doesn't seem like that bad an opening.

Now maybe they do intend to move further into the complex in which case the trap is not relevant to the combat - but who knows at the moment.

I very much doubt Roy would charge over an unspecified trap that the team specifically took pains to bypass just a few minutes ago. Maybe V would buy them a round with Forcecage or something, I dunno.


Beats me, I'm not enough of a D&D expert to know. I'm familiar with basic RPG concepts from video games like Wizardry, but I'm mostly here for the story.

One of the splices was a sorcerer/archmage; did he cast as total level or just level of whichever class he was using?

My guess was that maybe there was some obtuse feat where V's casting was for total level rather than maximum class level, and that it just was silly broken when V's level was their own 13ish plus three 20+ epics.

Maybe I'm just dwelling too much on the fiends' "effective level" comment, but I took it to mean that whatever V did while spliced was going to be evaluated by game (world) mechanics at that absurdly high level.

Oh, about that -


Archmage stacks with Sorcerer but base classes don't stack like that.

So for instance a Wizard 20/Sorcerer 20/Cleric 20/Druid 20 is casting as a level 20 caster for any of their various classes (assuming no items, feats etc), they would have a character level of 80.
Meanwhile a Bard 20/Loremaster 10/Arcane Trickster 10 is casting as a level 40 character and is a level 40 character.

We don't know how the splice worked in relation to caster level but my assumption is that the souls acted as independent contractors loaning arcane power to the contractee rather then acting as if the contractee had gained all the levels naturally - and as such the wizard levels wouldn't stack (and the sorcerer archmage levels would also remain seperate).

This, actually.

There's a similar example(if much weaker) in 3.5e already, look at this:


A hero of old, the paladin Prator bore this relic in many a valiant battle. The Shield of Prator is said to have disappeared when Prator fell in the Battle of the Three Hells, although it has reportedly surfaced briefly from time to time since then. This +5 large shield, emblazoned with the symbol of the sun, allows the wielder to cast spells as if she were a 20th-level paladin with a Wisdom score of 20. The spells gained are cumulative with any existing spells per day that the character might have, even if she's already a paladin.

(emphasis mine)

So basically, that except for how many levels the splices had and how high their casting stats were.

Also a lot of people get hung up that Darth Vaarsuvius must have a CL close to 100 to break the Anti-Magic Field with a Disjunction, but even one cast from a scroll at minimum caster level has a possibility to pop one. It's just that the chance isn't that high and V got lucky. I've seen stuff like that on TvTropes.

[Ghosty]

Maybe the Astral Fortress could get some other use, like the battlefield for a boss fight later down the line. I think that whatever threat Redcloak pulls using Xykon's phylactery is what's gonna matter more at the end, I think he might have some type of dead man's trigger thing going on somehow, although not sure on what that set-up would require.

Just how tough is Xykon's Phylactery? It looks like RC put many of the protective spells on it, if not most of them. Xykon has the fake, which only has RC's abjurations on it, and it doesn't look like X can tell the difference (through using Detect Magic on it, or some other divination) Did X put a protective spell on the Phylactery that RC can't undo?

Assuming all of the protective spells are gone, how resistant is the Phylactery to, I dunno, Disintegrate?

[danielxcutter]

Just how tough is Xykon's Phylactery? It looks like RC put many of the protective spells on it, if not most of them. Xykon has the fake, which only has RC's abjurations on it, and it doesn't look like X can tell the difference (through using Detect Magic on it, or some other divination) Did X put a protective spell on the Phylactery that RC can't undo?

Assuming all of the protective spells are gone, how resistant is the Phylactery to, I dunno, Disintegrate?

As phylacteries are not allowed to be made out of magic items, the answer would be "not at all".

[KorvinStarmast]

Laurin Shattersmith? She does seem like she would appreciate respect for female adventurers, but I'm not sure it would seduce her... Uh, they are already in a romantic and intimate relationship. Not a seduce move by a bard, but Rich (the author) playing with words and default gender attachments/inferences.
You are reading Durkon's eyebrows as the same as Vaarsuvius's and Minrah's? Fair enough to each their own, I am seeing a difference. If you go back to panel three, Roy has the same eyebrows to Belkar, no drama.

[dancrilis]

If you go back to panel three, roy has the same eyebrows to Belkar, no drama.

He does yes - and if Durkon hadn't been frowning back I likely would have overlooked it as 'Roy is annoyed by the situation in general and has been frowning a bit more then I normally notice', but Durkon last strip had an 'OK?!' after Roy indirectly reprimanded him and this strip where it seems to me they are frowning at each other.

[understatement]

I've never gotten the "final fight at astral fortress" theories.

How would the Order even get there? V can't cast Conjuration or Necromancy, so even if they hit level 17 they can't exactly cast astral projection or Gate. Durkon's not hitting 17 anytime soon either.

And b) only five entities alive know where the fortress' coordinates are: Xykon, Redcloak, MiTD, Jirix, and the roaches. Only two of them have indicated being able to planar travel to an accurate location.

And there wouldn't be reason to go there. Xykon has no need of retreating to his fortress, because that would only give away where his phylactery is.

[Ghosty]

As phylacteries are not allowed to be made out of magic items, the answer would be "not at all".

Sounds good for RC then.

Are metamagic feats that would raise a spill's memorization level above 9, (like Xykon's infamous Maximized Energy Drain) only available to Epic characters? I.e., when would a character be able to cast a '10th level' spell like Quickened Disintegrate?

[KorvinStarmast]

Saves are optional in these situations. A DM setting a teleportation trap in a dungeon isn't going to worry about whether it fits the PHB spell, much less so a webcomic writer. Bingo.

If it is a permanent Gate then it would transport anyone who walked through it without a save {snip} ... a more direct example is Teleportation Circle does not allow a save. Ah, nice to know how 3.x treats that.

Also yeah that’s why I’m betting all my quatloos that Xykon gets shoved into a Rift and gets destroyed by the Snarl. It would be appropriate for the first encounter to end with him being thrown through a Gate as well as the last one, wouldn’t it? That's what I think, but as that might be too predictable, I think Rich will come up with a variation.
... and he is stuck as just a skull for colour commentary for a while before finally being finished off. :smallwink: The Rose Bowl parade will be coming soon, maybe they need Xykon as a color commentator.

I've never gotten the "final fight at astral fortress" theories.

How would the Order even get there? V can't cast Conjuration or Necromancy, so even if they hit level 17 they can't exactly cast astral projection or Gate. Durkon's not hitting 17 anytime soon either.

And b) only five entities alive know where the fortress' coordinates are: Xykon, Redcloak, MiTD, Jirix, and the roaches. Only two of them have indicated being able to planar travel to an accurate location.

And there wouldn't be reason to go there. Xykon has no need of retreating to his fortress, because that would only give away where his phylactery is. I feel similarly. The trouble is Thor mentioned it and then told Durkon not to notice it if the topic comes up. That plants the seed of "we'll see the fortress somewhere in book seven" as a reasonable expectation.

[dancrilis]

Sounds good for RC then.

Are metamagic feats that would raise a spill's memorization level above 9, (like Xykon's infamous Maximized Energy Drain) only available to Epic characters? I.e., when would a character be able to cast a '10th level' spell like Quickened Disintegrate?

10th level spell slots are Epic only as I understand it - but there are ways around needing a 10th level spell slot.

But I would be dubious about 'phylacteries are not allowed to be made out of magic items' as in some DnD material where phylacteries are magic items - but Xykon's probably isn't.

[Thermophille]

Checkov's gun was a first-act placement. Xykon's fortress exists solely so he can think his phylactery is safe. Except for that sole reason, it is completely immaterial to the story.

Hmm, maybe. I still think there might be more to it, considering that it received direct foreshadowing (say Redcloak 'accidentally' lets the location slip to distract the order after they smite Xykon), but it may just be that.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I've never gotten the "final fight at astral fortress" theories.

How would the Order even get there? V can't cast Conjuration or Necromancy, so even if they hit level 17 they can't exactly cast astral projection or Gate. Durkon's not hitting 17 anytime soon either.

And b) only five entities alive know where the fortress' coordinates are: Xykon, Redcloak, MiTD, Jirix, and the roaches. Only two of them have indicated being able to planar travel to an accurate location.

And there wouldn't be reason to go there. Xykon has no need of retreating to his fortress, because that would only give away where his phylactery is.

Plane Shift is on the standard cleric list. As shown when Durkon was sent to fetch V from the Semi-Elemental Plane of Ranch Dressing.

[bunsen_h]

Also what astral fortress - Redcloak has Xykon's phylactery, so it's totally irrelevant now.

I think that the astral fortress will serve as a distraction for Xykon. Someone can trip an alarm there and Xykon will want to rush off and find out what's going on. Nobody is supposed to be able to find the place; nobody but Redcloak is even supposed to know it exists. He hid his "phylactery" there so it would be safe, and somebody messing around out there is the kind of thing that is going to strike fear into his paranoid little lack-of-heart.

EDIT: Add MitD and Jirix to the tiny list of those who know about the fortress.

[understatement]

Plane Shift is on the standard cleric list. As shown when Durkon was sent to fetch V from the Semi-Elemental Plane of Ranch Dressing.

I see - but I don't think Plane Shift allows for direct coordinates? If the Order goes to the plane they'll likely be hundreds of miles off from the fortress.

Not to mention that the Order wouldn't have reason to go to the fortress, since they believe the phylactery is still with Redcloak.

[dancrilis]

I see - but I don't think Plane Shift allows for direct coordinates? If the Order goes to the plane they'll likely be hundreds of miles off from the fortress.

Not to mention that the Order wouldn't have reason to go to the fortress, since they believe the phylactery is still with Redcloak.

Technically Xykon could let it slip that he has hidden his phylactery in a secret location (maybe after Redcloak's holy symbol is destroyed), Durkon could put two and two together and let Roy know what Thor said and then Roy could spend the rest of his life searching for Xykon's astral fortress in an attempt to finally destroy him - only to die of old age and found out that he had resolved the blood oath decades ago.

There would be some dark humour in that.

[Thermophille]

I find that one less likely, since we're only guessing that the fortress will be brought up again due to narrative cues, rather than logical sequence of events. Therefore, anything that happens with the fortress will be constructed to help drive forward the narrative, not stagnate it.

[Riftwolf]

I find it more likely that the Order will whomp on Xykon, destroy his body, then RCs holy symbol saying "Redcloak, you got some 'splaining to do..."

[Rogar Demonblud]

I see - but I don't think Plane Shift allows for direct coordinates? If the Order goes to the plane they'll likely be hundreds of miles off from the fortress.

Not to mention that the Order wouldn't have reason to go to the fortress, since they believe the phylactery is still with Redcloak.

Actually, the Order doesn't know what is the phylactery, let alone where it is. So if they take out Xykon they are stymied for the 'what next' step. Redcloak could easily then 'let slip' about the Astral Plane fortress to distract the heroes while continuing with the Plan.

As for finding it, well, the Plane is timeless and allows you to move freely simply by thinking about where you want to go. It'd take a little time to get there, true, but it is doable. Not to mention that since the Astral is not the Prime the figurative hands of the various deities are less tied.

I don't think we'll go there, but it is doable on a few levels.

[UnintensifiedFa]

It doesn't. "Suss" does, but it means something different.

Actually "Sus" has it's origins in earlier social deduction games meaning exactly what it does in Among Us. My biggest example would be "Town of Salem" where it's often used as the "Sheriff" role to say whether or not the target investigated at night was a member of the Mafia, but you can go back to almost any online social deduction games and Sus will probably have been used as slang for suspicious far longer than Among us has been outl.

[understatement]

Actually, the Order doesn't know what is the phylactery, let alone where it is. So if they take out Xykon they are stymied for the 'what next' step. Redcloak could easily then 'let slip' about the Astral Plane fortress to distract the heroes while continuing with the Plan.

As for finding it, well, the Plane is timeless and allows you to move freely simply by thinking about where you want to go. It'd take a little time to get there, true, but it is doable. Not to mention that since the Astral is not the Prime the figurative hands of the various deities are less tied.

I don't think we'll go there, but it is doable on a few levels.

OK, I didn't know that about the Astral Plane. Thanks.

But I think the Order does know where the phylactery is - right around Redcloak's neck (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0887.html). They don't know about the sewer fake switcheroo.

[Grey Watcher]

Actually, the Order doesn't know what is the phylactery...

I think they do, actually, thanks to O-Chul. Between Vaarsuvius and Blackwing almost throwing it into the Rift and the fact that, in the Pyramid Dream Montage, Roy is throwing Redcloak's holy symbol (complete with Xykon's angry eyes) into a volcano or something, it seems pretty obvious they know that the phylactery is also Redcloak's holy symbol.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Point. I had forgotten that they'd learned that they'd learned that. Time for a reread over the Winter Break, I guess.

[BarakDeathBlade]

Archmage stacks with Sorcerer but base classes don't stack like that.

So for instance a Wizard 20/Sorcerer 20/Cleric 20/Druid 20 is casting as a level 20 caster for any of their various classes (assuming no items, feats etc), they would have a character level of 80.
Meanwhile a Bard 20/Loremaster 10/Arcane Trickster 10 is casting as a level 40 character and is a level 40 character.

We don't know how the splice worked in relation to caster level but my assumption is that the souls acted as independent contractors loaning arcane power to the contractee rather then acting as if the contractee had gained all the levels naturally - and as such the wizard levels wouldn't stack (and the sorcerer archmage levels would also remain seperate).

Just my $.02, but in 639, Haera appears behind V casting Familicide.

In 643 Ganonron appears behind V casting Epic Teleport. Sure, it doesn't happen in 650 when she Epic Teleports into Xycon's tower in Azure City, but that was a busy panel.

I read it as, the spliced soul is casting the spell out of their own slots. If they cast a spell, it's cast by that soul's caster level. If V casts Disintegrate (well, it was the spell you requested...) it's at V's caster level.

I also think we care about this far more than the Giant does at this point, but that's my position.

[WanderingMist]

Just my $.02, but in 639, Haera appears behind V casting Familicide.

In 643 Ganonron appears behind V casting Epic Teleport. Sure, it doesn't happen in 650 when she Epic Teleports into Xycon's tower in Azure City, but that was a busy panel.

I read it as, the spliced soul is casting the spell out of their own slots. If they cast a spell, it's cast by that soul's caster level. If V casts Disintegrate (well, it was the spell you requested...) it's at V's caster level.

I also think we care about this far more than the Giant does at this point, but that's my position.

See, the thing about that is, Disjunction worked and V wasn't worried about it failing in the slightest. I doubt that whoever's spell it was had a higher level than 30, and even that is a big, big stretch. Even given all V's arrogance and power-tripping, they would not have risked losing their power for a 30% chance at success where failure meant a fate worse than death. My assumption is that while the souls give V access to the spells, as shown by specific souls using specific spells, V's effective caster level is effectively equivalent to all 4 of them added up, which, even at the lowest, would be 70-something. Given the comments that Haerta was the most powerful, she was probably mid-late twenties (25-27), while the others were early-mid (20-23), giving V's ECL a boost somewhere between 65 and 73.

[danielxcutter]

See, the thing about that is, Disjunction worked and V wasn't worried about it failing in the slightest. I doubt that whoever's spell it was had a higher level than 30, and even that is a big, big stretch. Even given all V's arrogance and power-tripping, they would not have risked losing their power for a 30% chance at success where failure meant a fate worse than death. My assumption is that while the souls give V access to the spells, as shown by specific souls using specific spells, V's effective caster level is effectively equivalent to all 4 of them added up, which, even at the lowest, would be 70-something. Given the comments that Haerta was the most powerful, she was probably mid-late twenties (25-27), while the others were early-mid (20-23), giving V's ECL a boost somewhere between 65 and 73.

Losing your casting through Disjunction only happens if you use it on an artifact, so no.

[Bilbo Baggins]

Losing your casting through Disjunction only happens if you use it on an artifact, so no.

The "losing their power" referred to what would have happened if V hadn't managed to destroy the anti-magic field. (Just like what happened to V back on the island.)

[danielxcutter]

The "losing their power" referred to what would have happened if V hadn't managed to destroy the anti-magic field. (Just like what happened to V back on the island.)

Okay fair, but did V even have other options? 99% of the spells in this game wouldn't be able to reach into an AMF anyways.

[Kornaki]

They could have gated some sort of monster in that was more capable of hand to hand combat.

[danielxcutter]

They could have gated some sort of monster in that was more capable of hand to hand combat.

First of all you'd need a ridiculous CL to Gate in something that can go toe-to-toe with an ancient black dragon(probably with class levels in Sorcerer) in an AMF. Second, and even more importantly, V was focused on their arcane power, which is why they even went with the deal in the first place instead of going with the "cut off your head to contact Master" plan and summoning creatures kind of goes against that.

[mjasghar]

Technically Xykon could let it slip that he has hidden his phylactery in a secret location (maybe after Redcloak's holy symbol is destroyed), Durkon could put two and two together and let Roy know what Thor said and then Roy could spend the rest of his life searching for Xykon's astral fortress in an attempt to finally destroy him - only to die of old age and found out that he had resolved the blood oath decades ago.

There would be some dark humour in that.

You don’t age on the astral
However that would mean Roy could never return to the material as time would catch up
On the other hand he could live there with Celia happily