The Seldarine across worlds

[schreier]

I know that the Seldarine pantheon is in both Faerun and Oerth ... Are they the same? Would it be reasonable for them to communicate with followers about things going on in the other realm if their followers were in danger (warning forgotten realms elves about oerth realms under attack for example?) I don't think there are any canon examples, but figured I'd ask for people's thoughts.

[PattThe]

Well that depends on the status of the Elven high god, Corellon Larethian. It could be argued that they are an Overgod who travels across countless crystal spheres, likely influencing the elven race to invade worlds that are deemed suitable for them. Elves are aliens that arrive alongside many other cosmically omnipresent races and cause problems for any material plane they come across.

[Saint-Just]

Well that depends on the status of the Elven high god, Corellon Larethian. It could be argued that they are an Overgod who travels across countless crystal spheres, likely influencing the elven race to invade worlds that are deemed suitable for them. Elves are aliens that arrive alongside many other cosmically omnipresent races and cause problems for any material plane they come across.

No, Corellon Larethian is not an Overgod. Overgod (overdeity) is a pretty specific term meaning: Divine rank 21+, not answering prayers, not empowering priests, not dependent on worship, in general they sit there and do nothing. AFAIK there is only 2 known examples of overgods: Ao and the Highgod. They both manage a single crystal sphere and within it they can mess with "normal" gods any way they want, but they do nothing outside of it.

Now, to the OP's question: I am not sure. There are examples of gods which are more powerful (have more divine ranks, are the greater deity instead of intermediate) within a specific crystal sphere so it's not a simple "delegation"

I do not have access to the Faiths and Pantheons ATM but it in beginning it talks how normally matters concerning one sphere/setting should not affect matters outside of it. It gives an example of two gods being sworn enemies because of a specific event in the Forgotten Realms but says it should not affect relationships between those two gods outside of Forgotten Realms. So I would think that a "normal" world-ending threat which are dime a dozen in the FR should not cause any of the gods to call for reinforcements. Maybe something truly apocalyptic and out of control (like things which happen whenever redaction changes) would be big enough to ignore that rule, but normally - whatever happens in Forgotten Realms stays in Forgotten Realms (and the same is true for other crystal spheres).

[Clistenes]

there is only 2 known examples of overgods: Ao and the Highgod.

Three, if you count Tellene's Creator as one.

Four, if you count Praemus of Praemal.

[PattThe]

No, Corellon Larethian is not an Overgod. Overgod (overdeity) is a pretty specific term meaning: Divine rank 21+, not answering prayers, not empowering priests, not dependent on worship, in general they sit there and do nothing. AFAIK there is only 2 known examples of overgods: Ao and the Highgod. They both manage a single crystal sphere and within it they can mess with "normal" gods any way they want, but they do nothing outside of it.

Now, to the OP's question: I am not sure. There are examples of gods which are more powerful (have more divine ranks, are the greater deity instead of intermediate) within a specific crystal sphere so it's not a simple "delegation"

I do not have access to the Faiths and Pantheons ATM but it in beginning it talks how normally matters concerning one sphere/setting should not affect matters outside of it. It gives an example of two gods being sworn enemies because of a specific event in the Forgotten Realms but says it should not affect relationships between those two gods outside of Forgotten Realms. So I would think that a "normal" world-ending threat which are dime a dozen in the FR should not cause any of the gods to call for reinforcements. Maybe something truly apocalyptic and out of control (like things which happen whenever redaction changes) would be big enough to ignore that rule, but normally - whatever happens in Forgotten Realms stays in Forgotten Realms (and the same is true for other crystal spheres).

Isn't there a whole ecology of the overgods? Isn't the neogi creator entity a giant cosmic phlogiston slug that craps out countless crystal spheres by the hour?

Corellon's elves are as much an inevitable nuisance plaguing each d&d world (regardless of divine backstories for a given reality) in their own mysterious time-****ery way akin to how the illithid empire always survives past the future and into the past. Elven gods are what best goes for divinity but are far more complex than some given pantheon of a specific cluster of material planes. imo. The "it's just ao and that's it" theory makes it all so trivial and ignores many different genres of nonsense d&d enjoys. Where's the far realm's immense uniqueness factor inti a cut and dry structure of power?

[hamishspence]

No, Corellon Larethian is not an Overgod. Overgod (overdeity) is a pretty specific term meaning: Divine rank 21+, not answering prayers, not empowering priests, not dependent on worship, in general they sit there and do nothing. AFAIK there is only 2 known examples of overgods: Ao and the Highgod. They both manage a single crystal sphere and within it they can mess with "normal" gods any way they want, but they do nothing outside of it.

AO does a little meddling with mortals in the novels, but not much. Mostly Elminster (in book 2 of the Shadow of the Avatar series) and once, Shield of Innocence (paladin in the War in Tethyr novel).

[Biggus]

I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere that deities who exist in different worlds are not the same, they're separate aspects of that being. I'll see if I can find a reference.

[Saint-Just]

Isn't there a whole ecology of the overgods? Isn't the neogi creator entity a giant cosmic phlogiston slug that craps out countless crystal spheres by the hour?

Corellon's elves are as much an inevitable nuisance plaguing each d&d world (regardless of divine backstories for a given reality) in their own mysterious time-****ery way akin to how the illithid empire always survives past the future and into the past. Elven gods are what best goes for divinity but are far more complex than some given pantheon of a specific cluster of material planes. imo. The "it's just ao and that's it" theory makes it all so trivial and ignores many different genres of nonsense d&d enjoys. Where's the far realm's immense uniqueness factor inti a cut and dry structure of power?

I haven't denied a possibility of more overgods, maybe even an overgod in each crystal sphere, I merely said "known". And Corellon is not an overgod because he behaves nothing like an overgod. The word overgod has been reasonably strictly defined.

As far as "many different genres of nonsense" go I do not try to use cut and dry structure of powers. There may have been Serpents of Law. There are archfiends. There are draedens. Some of Elder Evils are not easy to define in usual terms. There is Lady of Pain. As you said there is a Far Realm and whatever happens there and sometimes intersects with the Great Wheel. But Corellon is a god (because, really, every source says he is a god) and he is not an overgod because "They are beyond the ken of mortals and care nothing for worshipers. They do not grant spells, do not answer prayers, and do not respond to queries" does not describe him.

What makes Corellon so different from many other (multisphere, racial, greater) deities? Or all of them are overgods too?

[Spiderswims]

In Spelljammer/Planescape lore: There are three types of Pantheons. Single Sphere, Multi Sphere, and No Sphere.

Single Sphere Pantheons are connected, born, created, tied, and part of a single sphere. The pantheon keeps all of it's power and influence in the single sphere. And branches out slowly to the rest of the spheres of the Prime. Most of the "official" campaign worlds have Single Sphere Pantheons: The Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance and Grayhawk are the best know examples. A handful of deities of each might have worshipers in another Sphere or two, but not too many; and not the whole pantheon. They are also typically scattered across the Planes, with no Planular home.

Multi sphere Pantheons are based firmly in the Outer Planes, and typically have a Planular home where most, if not all, the Pantheon lives. They are connected to a huge number of Spheres, though mostly with a foothold or other light touch. Most races, at least the races found in many Spheres across the Prime, have pantheons that are Multi Sphere. If the race is found in any great numbers in a Sphere, the Multi Sphere Racial Pantheon has at least tired to get them as worshipers: and most races follow them. The Outer Sphere Pantheon is the exact same on each world....most of the time. Though each Sphere does add a bit of Local Flavor. The Outer Sphere Pantheon Mythology is the same in all the Spheres: Like Collerlian created the elf race from drops of his blood. But each adds local myths on top of and around the main ones. Also each Sphere has it's own lesser deities and ascended local heroes. So a hundred elves from a hundred different Spheres would all know the basic elf blood creation story, but each might have slightly different details and spin.

Answer: Yes. As the Multi Sphere Pantheon Deity on the Outer Plane...might...know what is happening on each world they and Pantheon have worshipers on: they could freely tell someone on any world. Plenty would tell stories of other worlds if the story is 'good' or 'useful'. Though they might not say the story is 'real and from another world', and just tell it like a pure fiction story.

Though there is no know example of something like an elf kingdom on world one under attack and an elf god summoning ten armies from ten other worlds to help in real time.

An Overgod is specifically a "god like being" that is in charge and total control of a single Crystal Sphere. Officially, there are only two mentioned often: Ao and the HighGod.

Collerlian, Mordian, and such are Creator Gods: They created their Pantheon, Race and such. They are not Overgods.

[schreier]

This topic makes me think about the Mulhorandi pantheon. Supposedly Ptah and Horus and Isis were here on earth, but traveled to Faerun when Ao let them. I wonder if any of the other pantheons were here in the d&d version of the world. We know that the three wizards met with Ed Greenwood, right? Those are the two known crossovers from the world to here that I know of

[ShurikVch]

From the Faiths and Pantheons:

Immigrant deities are those who were worshiped on other worlds and on other planes before their followers entered Toril via portals and other means. Once a deity is accepted into the pantheons of Toril, there is no difference between the two groups, since each immigrant deity has a local aspect, independent of other world-based aspects he or she might possess. For example, although Labelas Enoreth and Clangeddin Silverbeard battled each other during the Time of Troubles on the isle of Ruathym, any enmity stemming from that clash does not extend to other worlds. Likewise, Lolth in some other world differs from Lolth in Faerûn. If in some other world adventurers sought out Lolth in her lair and slew her, her local aspect would be unaffected.



This topic makes me think about the Mulhorandi pantheon. Supposedly Ptah and Horus and Isis were here on earth, but traveled to Faerun when Ao let them. I wonder if any of the other pantheons were here in the d&d version of the world. We know that the three wizards met with Ed Greenwood, right? Those are the two known crossovers from the world to here that I know of
Well: Loviatar (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Loviatar) and Mielikki (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Mielikki), Oghma (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Oghma) and Silvanus (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Silvanus), Tyche (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Tyche), and Tyr (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Tyr) are all "Immigrant Deities"
Also, The City Beyond the Gate (https://adventurelookup.com/adventures/the-city-beyond-the-gate) adventure: D&D players traveling to modern London via Gate to retrieve the Mace of St. Cuthbert



The Outer Sphere Pantheon Mythology is the same in all the Spheres: Like Collerlian created the elf race from drops of his blood. But each adds local myths on top of and around the main ones. Also each Sphere has it's own lesser deities and ascended local heroes. So a hundred elves from a hundred different Spheres would all know the basic elf blood creation story, but each might have slightly different details and spin.
The funny thing there: apparently, this myth don't includes elves of Forgotten Realms - the first faerûnian elves (Green Elves) worshiped some Faerie gods (probably Titania and such) and don't knew anything about the Seldarine...

[schreier]

From the Faiths and Pantheons:




Well: Loviatar (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Loviatar) and Mielikki (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Mielikki), Oghma (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Oghma) and Silvanus (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Silvanus), Tyche (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Tyche), and Tyr (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Tyr) are all "Immigrant Deities"
Also, The City Beyond the Gate (https://adventurelookup.com/adventures/the-city-beyond-the-gate) adventure: D&D players traveling to modern London via Gate to retrieve the Mace of St. Cuthbert

The funny thing there: apparently, this myth don't includes elves of Forgotten Realms - the first faerûnian elves (Green Elves) worshiped some Faerie gods (probably Titania and such) and don't knew anything about the Seldarine...

I had to look up that Dragon Magazine adventure - it is set in London 1985, but I did not see a Greyhawk year referenced. I have been trying to gauge years across universes, which is probably a fruitless and effectively impossible endeavor, but fun to try.

Per this link:
https://dungeons.fandom.com/wiki/World_of_Greyhawk_Timeline
it looks like 576 CY = 1979 AD
It also seems like 585CY = 1992 AD and 591CY=1996AD

Eberron is 998YK, but has been stagnant basically. It looks like that would link to 2004, the year the game was published?

Here is a possible link between Dragonlance and Forgotten realms:
https://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?t=22942
From this we get 1361 DR corresponding to 358 AC

I know there is no canon answer, but it is fun to try like I said :)

[Tzardok]

I know that the Seldarine pantheon is in both Faerun and Oerth ... Are they the same? Would it be reasonable for them to communicate with followers about things going on in the other realm if their followers were in danger (warning forgotten realms elves about oerth realms under attack for example?) I don't think there are any canon examples, but figured I'd ask for people's thoughts.

That depends. In 2e/Planescape, there is a single cosmology (the Great Wheel), with all the different campaign settings on different worlds on the Material Plane. In that cosmology, the Seldarine are explicitely multi-setting gods. @Spiderswims' answer goes more in-depth here.

In 3.x on the other hand, the settings are assumed to be completely isolated, each with its own cosmology (the Great Wheel is here assumed to be Oerth's, while Faerûn got the Great Tree, Eberron the Great Orrery and so on). If your cosmology works like that, deities that appear in multiple settings are explicitely not identical (as seen in the description of Lolth in Faiths and Pantheons).

[hamishspence]

If your cosmology works like that, deities that appear in multiple settings are explicitely not identical (as seen in the description of Lolth in Faiths and Pantheons).

Not identical in stats, or even history, but still "the same deity".

page 41 F&P 3e:


"Most campaign worlds have their own pantheons, and rarely does the same deity appear in more than one world setting. One of the few exceptions to this rule is Lolth, who appears in both the core D&D pantheon and the Faerunian pantheon in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. Though her history differs between the two settings, she remains very much the same deity.

When such a situation occurs, the deity's statistics may vary slightly from one setting to another."