Assuming I'm understanding how True Resurrection works [Mild Spoilers, I guess]

[redcodekevin]

OK, so I went through http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm already to check for the way it works. If I understand correctly, since you don't need a body a new body will be created for the resurrected person, right?
So... If Durkon casts True resurrection for Roy over the sea, Roy would be having a new body, won't he?
What would be happening then to the Mark of Justice on the Belkster? They would be apart more than a mile, won't they?




Isn't it strange my whole post is written in questions?

[tirsales]

Seems to be correct - though Durkon would need to be a lvl17 cleric to cast "True Ressurection" - and, at least before the time hop - he seemed more like lvl13

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Several people have mentioned "Gentle Repose" as a possibility of extending Roy's "Best if revived by" date. Not sure where Haley would be able to get said spell, but if a low level cleric were also trapped in the city... Somehow I doubt every man, woman and child made it to the docks.

Some ran for the hills, some ran for the docks, some hid, and some were captured. If Haley made a raid on the P.O.W. stockade, she might have a bit more help than just Belkar...

[chibibar]

Yes... They can bring Roy back BUT if they use "True Resurrection" Then Haley and Belkar will truly be alone in AC. ALSO Belkar's mark WILL activate ;)

[Dunamin]

Durkon would be casting Resurrection to bring back Roy (the 7th level spell that clerics get at 13th level), not True Resurrection (the 9th level spell that clerics get at 17th level).

The point you bring up is interesting but probably moot: To cast Resurrection Durkon needs a piece of Roy, and getting his hands on that would likely be in the company of the missing OOTS members.

[redcodekevin]

To cast Resurrection Durkon needs a piece of Roy, and getting his hands on that would likely be in the company of the missing OOTS members.

Exactly that's the point why I said True Resurrection, which according to the description only needs the caster to know or be desribed the peson who is to be resurrected. So Durkon basically can concentrate on Roy (or describe him to the other cleric) and Roy should be true-resurrected as expected.

I don't know if it was discussed before, but we really don't know if the mark expired when Roy died. Right?

[Dunamin]

But why should True Ressurection be relevant at all?

Durkon can't cast it and the order doesn't seem to be on good terms with any clerics who are capable. Rounding up cash for 25000 gp worth of diamonds is also a great deal more difficult than 10k.

[factotum]

I agree with Dunamin. Durkon can't cast the spell and they can't afford the diamonds to cast it even if he COULD. In any case, even if he somehow did that, they'd still have to rescue Haley and Belkar from Azure City--Roy would definitely insist on it, and I'm pretty sure Durkon and Elan would be of like mind.

[Quazer Games]

Not to mention that Roy probably won't WANT to be true ressurected if it means activating the mark of justice. Remember, :roy: still has a choice in the matter.

[sihnfahl]

I agree with Dunamin. Durkon can't cast the spell and they can't afford the diamonds to cast it even if he COULD. In any case, even if he somehow did that, they'd still have to rescue Haley and Belkar from Azure City--Roy would definitely insist on it, and I'm pretty sure Durkon and Elan would be of like mind.
Plus, there's the whole dilemma that Durkon would be in.

If he SOMEHOW gets 25k in loot (while he's tooling around with Hinjo, to boot!), what would be his priority? Immediately bring back Roy, who could be dead for another hundred years safely, or help feed the folks who fled AC and didn't unload in the countries they visited? Not to mention help repair the ships...

[redcodekevin]

Hey guys, just one point I seem to not be clear on:
I'm in no way saying that it will happen or that it's the onnly way Rich can pull it up. The post was on the hypothetic case they were able to cast True Resurrection and what that will cause on the MoJ Belkar wears, not plot-defining discussion. I know for a fact it'll be pretty difficult to cast resurrection and that makes True resurrection even more dificult, so I don't htink is under discussion if it will happen or not, it'll most certainly not, and I'm aware of that.

I just wanted to point out that no matter that Belkar still carries Roy's bones, the MoJ would trigger if he was true-resurrected more than a mile away.

[chibibar]

I always wonder what happen to the original body if True Resurrection was used. As a DM, I would make the original body go "poof" since it would cause problem with zombified the body after the person is resurrected :)

[Jayabalard]

But why should True Ressurection be relevant at all?

Durkon can't cast it and the order doesn't seem to be on good terms with any clerics who are capable. Rounding up cash for 25000 gp worth of diamonds is also a great deal more difficult than 10k.It's relevant because a sufficiently high enough level Durkon can cast it, and we don't yet know everything that happened in the last ~4months. Certainly 4 months ago Durkon couldn't cast it... that doesn't mean that he cannot currently cast it. Same goes with the other clerics that are capable bit, and the diamonds as well

on a side note, I wonder if these (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0123.html) were lost... since they're just described as gemstones, who knows whether they might be diamonds or not.

[sihnfahl]

It's relevant because a sufficiently high enough level Durkon can cast it, and we don't yet know everything that happened in the last ~4months. Certainly 4 months ago Durkon couldn't cast it... that doesn't mean that he cannot currently cast it. Same goes with the other clerics that are capable bit, and the diamonds as well
Well, from the looks of things, it seems Durkon and Elan have been travelling with Hinjo in his quest to get help from the nearby countries, feed the survivors of AC, and keep the boats afloat, not adventuring.


on a side note, I wonder if these (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0123.html) were lost... since they're just described as gemstones, who knows whether they might be diamonds or not.
Given this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0286.html) strip, their are either not gems or they're gems whose worth are not 5k combined.

[Dunamin]

It's relevant because a sufficiently high enough level Durkon can cast it, and we don't yet know everything that happened in the last ~4months. Certainly 4 months ago Durkon couldn't cast it... that doesn't mean that he cannot currently cast it. Same goes with the other clerics that are capable bit, and the diamonds as well
I seriously doubt that in only three and a half months Durkon has earned the required experience to obtain level 9th spells. Collaborated speculation on game mechanics put him at level 13 – that’s at least 45000 XP to what you’re proposing!

We're talking about power beyond Redcloak here, the top tier in core spellcasting – the same level of might as the Miracle spell. I very much doubt Rich would make such an extreme decision at this point.

[Jasdoif]

Thing is, Roy and Belkar have been separated by more then just a mile for months now: They've been on different planes. If the particular condition is tied to Roy's body, then that will still be there if Roy was true resurrected over the sea. A mark of justice would have no way of determining that Roy has a new body.

[chibibar]

Thing is, Roy and Belkar have been separated by more then just a mile for months now: They've been on different planes. If the particular condition is tied to Roy's body, then that will still be there if Roy was true resurrected over the sea. A mark of justice would have no way of determining that Roy has a new body.

True... Assuming it doesn't destroy the 1st body. There isn't any rules regarding that issue. It is up to the GM. If I was the GM, I would say the original body would be auto destroy since there ARE rules about turning a body into a zombie "trapped" the soul and prevent resurrection and such.

[Jasdoif]

True... Assuming it doesn't destroy the 1st body. There isn't any rules regarding that issue.Why would you think it could cause the original body to just disappear/vaporize? The spell certainly doesn't state that it does, and it would require a rule of some sort to have such an effect.

[chibibar]

Why would you think it could cause the original body to just disappear/vaporize? The spell certainly doesn't state that it does, and it would require a rule of some sort to have such an effect.

True... but then a paradox could happen...

Lets say that Roy was true resurrection (somehow) and Roy got a new body. Roy's old body still exist. Xykon reanimate it as a zombie. TECHNICALLY all Xykon needs is a body (from the comic) so does the zombie exist? Does it retain the memory of Roy (if any) or skill of Roy?

Are we gonna pull a Star Trek:TNG Riker's double/clone? What if the new Roy die, does it prevent future resurrection? Since normally a zombie body prevents resurrection.

For me, to prevent all kind of this type of issue. I, the DM, would cause the original body to ash and thus prevent such paradox.

[Jasdoif]

Lets say that Roy was true resurrection (somehow) and Roy got a new body. Roy's old body still exist. Xykon reanimate it as a zombie. TECHNICALLY all Xykon needs is a body (from the comic) so does the zombie exist? Does it retain the memory of Roy (if any) or skill of Roy?Zombies don't have memories or skills, no. :smalltongue:


Are we gonna pull a Star Trek:TNG Riker's double/clone? What if the new Roy die, does it prevent future resurrection? Since normally a zombie body prevents resurrection.The interesting thing here, is that raise dead targets the corpse you're "using", as does resurrection. (So does true resurrection, but I have to assume the "no body" option is an exception since you're definitely not able to deliver the touch spell to an unavailable corpse). I don't think it'd be a problem.


For me, to prevent all kind of this type of issue. I, the DM, would cause the original body to ash and thus prevent such paradox.Now, if we still wanted to go down that route...I'd say it'd be easier to just make the corpse not attached to any particular individual, it's simply a mass of dead flesh. It can't be raised, though it can be animated. It remains an object, however; and so the mark would still register it.



All this has got me thinking, though...we've yet to see Belkar since the battle at Azure City, and Roy's description of the curse (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0295.html) might mean its effects aren't immediately apparent. It's possible the curse has already activated, during the time Roy's been up in Celestia.

[Chronos]

Given this strip, their are either not gems or they're gems whose worth are not 5k combined.That strip tells us nothing about the Order's wealth, since it's Vaarsuvius saying it. The only person who knows how much wealth the Order has is Haley, since she's (to put it kindly) the party's treasurer. Of course, she also has most of the order's wealth on her person, in her various bags of holding, making True Resurrection even less likely.

[Hranat]

I don't know, mark of justice doesn't work like that. It goes into effect right away.

[geekyhedgehog]

she doesn't keep it all, she just saves up her fair share.

[Wych]

The link you posted seems to suggest that True Ressurection works like Raise Dead, which is a touch range spell. It sounds a bit vague to me as that wouldn't work if there is no body or piece of body to touch. Could very well be up to the DM how they want to handle it, if bodies going poof aren't your cup of tea then how does a completely random cave in that precisely smashes the body into non-existence?

[sihnfahl]

The link you posted seems to suggest that True Ressurection works like Raise Dead, which is a touch range spell. It sounds a bit vague to me as that wouldn't work if there is no body or piece of body to touch. Could very well be up to the DM how they want to handle it, if bodies going poof aren't your cup of tea then how does a completely random cave in that precisely smashes the body into non-existence?

This part. What's vague?

This spell can even bring back creatures whose bodies have been destroyed, provided that you unambiguously identify the deceased in some fashion (reciting the deceased’s time and place of birth or death is the most common method).
As long as the Cleric can focus on the person in some way, they can bring them back (provided their body hasn't been used to create an Undead monster).

[Kish]

she doesn't keep it all, she just saves up her fair share.
Which is nearly all the treasure in the party. Just ask her.

[sihnfahl]

Which is nearly all the treasure in the party. Just ask her.
Actually, if you ask her, she's holding a good bit of the other partymember's gold for them. After all, in her bags, they weigh nothing. If the other partymembers are carrying them, it's a pound per 50 coins.

She's saving them encumbrance!

[Calulithrar]

The Mark of justice activates(among other things) depending on relative position. I am willing to bet that it has already started

In addition I should think that in the relatively high power ootsverse at least one spell caster was level 17 or higher before the battle. Afterwards though well who knows?

[Justin_Bacon]

The point you bring up is interesting but probably moot: To cast Resurrection Durkon needs a piece of Roy, and getting his hands on that would likely be in the company of the missing OOTS members.

And this is why you should always give a vial of your blood to the party cleric.

... what?

Justin Alexander
http://www.thealexandrian.net

[chibibar]

now the only reason I would say the original body would turn to ash BECAUSE the of the raise dead spell. You need the original body to do so. While the body is fresh (confer the rules for the requirement) the body cause be either raise dead, resurrection or true resurrection. The reason most would go with raise dead because it is the cheapest and lowest compare to the other two BUT the other higher spell do have some extra benefits (auto regenerate or not having the need of a whole intact body etc etc)

Our original argument of Haley's shot to Roy's family Jewel was an issue for a while but the rule of raise dead would return the body to the living to the state BEFORE death :) (I think that is right)

So anyways... if we don't have the raise dead spell, then yes. I would consider the body just to be a dead flesh and Belkar's mark would activate IF the rules states that Belkar needs to be near Roy's body.... not Roy's spirit.

[Kish]

And this is why you should always give a vial of your blood to the party cleric.
Wouldn't work. It has to have been part of your body when you died.