persistent spell applied on an extended spell, 48 or 24 hrs?

[newguydude1]

When do “add-on” effects such as poison occur? For example, if an assassin delivers a death attack with a weapon bearing wyvern poison, does the poison take effect
first, thus potentially reducing the target’s Fortitude save against the death attack?
As a general guideline, whenever the rules don’t stipulate an order of operations for special effects (such as spells or special abilities), you should apply them in the order that’s most beneficial to the “controller” of the effect. In this case, the assassin is the “controller” of both the poison and the death attack, so he’d most likely choose for the poison to take effect first, and then the death attack.

so if a have an extended divine favor prepared, and i dmm persistent spell on it as i start casting extended divine favor, is it
persistent extended divine favor = setto24(doubleduration(divine favor))=24hrs
or is it
extended divine favor = doubleduration(setto24(divine favor))=48hrs?

the faq says the controller gets to order the stuff in the most beneficial way for him. so if i apply extend and persistent spell simultaneously then 100% its 48hrs.
but here, persistent spell is added after extend spell for sure, but does that matter? can i reorder the new metamagicked spell?

so like, do i get to decide the order at the last minute? so if i cast extended persistent divine favor, do i get to choose 24hrs or 48hrs right as a cast it?
or is the order decided in the order i apply the metamagic? so if i cast extended persistent divine favor, is it always 48hrs?

[Cruiser1]

the faq says the controller gets to order the stuff in the most beneficial way for him. so if i apply extend and persistent spell simultaneously then 100% its 48hrs.
Not necessarily. :smalltongue: A spell with (Extend + Persist) could have duration (24 hours + normalduration), in which case it doesn't really matter which order the feats get applied. There's even a precedent for this with (Empower + Maximize) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#maximizeSpell), which explicitly says it "gains the separate benefits of each feat" and gives damage equal to only (max + 1.5xoriginal damage) and not (max x 1.5).

Of course, one may argue that by RAW addition instead of multiplication only applies to those two specific metamagic feats, and all other metamagic feats should have their effects multiplied together (see "Mailman" caster builds). Perhaps RAI was for all feats to just add together, and certainly one may prefer the gentler ruling to reduce the effects of persistomancer abuse (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?280365-Priya-the-Prismatic-Priestess-Buffs-Across-the-Spectrum). As usual, ask your DM! :smallwink:

[PairO'Dice Lost]

so like, do i get to decide the order at the last minute? so if i cast extended persistent divine favor, do i get to choose 24hrs or 48hrs right as a cast it?
or is the order decided in the order i apply the metamagic? so if i cast extended persistent divine favor, is it always 48hrs?

Yes, you can decide which version is "most beneficial" for you, so you could indeed Extend it first and then Persist it so the final duration is 24 hours, though since that's the same end result as just Persisting it I can't think of a reason why you'd want to do it that way.


Not necessarily. :smalltongue: A spell with (Extend + Persist) could have duration (24 hours + normalduration), in which case it doesn't really matter which order the feats get applied. There's even a precedent for this with (Empower + Maximize) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#maximizeSpell), which explicitly says it "gains the separate benefits of each feat" and gives damage equal to only (max + 1.5xoriginal damage) and not (max x 1.5).

Of course, one may argue that by RAW addition instead of multiplication only applies to those two specific metamagic feats, and all other metamagic feats should have their effects multiplied together (see "Mailman" caster builds). Perhaps RAI was for all feats to just add together, and certainly one may prefer the gentler ruling to reduce the effects of persistomancer abuse (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?280365-Priya-the-Prismatic-Priestess-Buffs-Across-the-Spectrum). As usual, ask your DM! :smallwink:

Maximize+Empower would in fact be an "anti-precedent" for that, since Maximize and Empower not fully stacking is only a clause in Maximize and thus is an exception to the normal rules rather than the default case.

It's indisputable RAW that only Maximize and Empower interact in a way that isn't completely cumulative, because aside from that clause (A) there's a paragraph on applying multiple metamagic feats to a single spell in the explanation of the [Metamagic] descriptor, and it doesn't say anything about feats not stacking normally; (B) the D&D rules about doubling only adding +100% of the base effect instead of actually doubling only applies to abstract quantities, whereas things like time (Extend, Persist, Delay) and distance (Enlarge, Widen, Reach) are real-world quantities that multiply normally; and (C) if only applying to the base effect were the general rule then you'd have tons of weird and clunky interactions (e.g. Twinned Widened spells that had two different areas, one normal and one widened) that are never once mentioned in the rules.

[newguydude1]

Yes, you can decide which version is "most beneficial" for you, so you could indeed Extend it first and then Persist it so the final duration is 24 hours, though since that's the same end result as just Persisting it I can't think of a reason why you'd want to do it that way.

ok so just to be clear, your saying that even if persistent spell is the last metamagic to be added, like maybe even 10 hours after you applied extend spell to divine favor, you can make it 48 hours or 24 hours if i choose to do so?

so the order of operations is what i want it to be and not the order i applied it to the spell?

you dont have a rule citation somewhere or an example somewhere that supports this do you? that would make my life a lot easier.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

ok so just to be clear, your saying that even if persistent spell is the last metamagic to be added, like maybe even 10 hours after you applied extend spell to divine favor, you can make it 48 hours or 24 hours if i choose to do so?

Nope, that's a completely different scenario than the example one where you're applying both feats at casting time, and something that's not actually possible to achieve. The only thing that can apply metamagic to an already-cast spell is the Incantatrix's Metamagic Effect class feature, and divine favor isn't an Effect spell and so isn't a valid target for that.

Even if that were something you could do through some sort of homebrew, though, applying the feats that way isn't possible because in that case you're not applying multiple effects at the same time, so the order of operations is specified (namely, the most recent one takes precedence) so the "whichever order is most beneficial" clause doesn't apply. You'd be applying Persistent Spell to an extended divine favor and so would overwrite the extended divine favor's duration with a duration of 24 hours as per Persistent Spell.

[newguydude1]

Nope, that's a completely different scenario than the example one where you're applying both feats at casting time, and something that's not actually possible to achieve.

no its not. 1st post says dmm. divine metamagic, which is applied at cast. preparing spells is applied at the start of the day.
i prepare an extended divine favor
then 10 hours later i use dmm to apply persistent spell on it as i cast the extended divine favor.
when i do, is the duration 24 hrs because im persisting an "extended divine favor" to 24hrs, 48 hrs because i can somehow squeeze in persistent spell before the already applied extend spell, or can i choose right at casting?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

no its not. 1st post says dmm. divine metamagic, which is applied at cast. preparing spells is applied at the start of the day.
i prepare an extended divine favor
then 10 hours later i use dmm to apply persistent spell on it as i cast the extended divine favor.
when i do, is the duration 24 hrs because im persisting an "extended divine favor" to 24hrs, 48 hrs because i can somehow squeeze in persistent spell before the already applied extend spell, or can i choose right at casting?

Ah, it wasn't obvious that the "10 hours later" bit was referring to DMM.

It doesn't matter whether one feat is applied when you prepare the spell and one is applied via DMM, the relevant part is that at the time you actually cast the spell the final effect is an extended persistent divine favor, and in that case you can, as noted, choose the order in which you apply them and can make the duration either 24 hours (Extended -> Persistent) or 48 hours (Persistent -> Extended).

[gogogome]

Ah, it wasn't obvious that the "10 hours later" bit was referring to DMM.

It doesn't matter whether one feat is applied when you prepare the spell and one is applied via DMM, the relevant part is that at the time you actually cast the spell the final effect is an extended persistent divine favor, and in that case you can, as noted, choose the order in which you apply them and can make the duration either 24 hours (Extended -> Persistent) or 48 hours (Persistent -> Extended).

The concern here is, do we treat "extended divine favor" as a single spell? If so then persisting an "extended divine favor" results in 24 hours. You are suggesting that you are adding persistent spell to "divine favor" and not "extended divine favor".

Do you happen to have something to backup your argument? Seems like the rules are mum on this one and its up to the DM to decide.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

The concern here is, do we treat "extended divine favor" as a single spell? If so then persisting an "extended divine favor" results in 24 hours. You are suggesting that you are adding persistent spell to "divine favor" and not "extended divine favor".

No, I'm suggesting that you're adding both Extend and Persist to divine favor at the same time and you can apply them in either order you wish, exactly as the "most beneficial" clause states. It just so happens that applying Extend before Persist has no distinguishable mechanical effect, in the same way that applying Energy Substitution (Cold) to cone of cold has no distinguishable mechanical effect: it's entirely legal, but also entirely pointless (and, as I mentioned above, I don't know why you'd ever want to do that, but if you ever did, you can).

[gogogome]

No, I'm suggesting that you're adding both Extend and Persist to divine favor at the same time and you can apply them in either order you wish, exactly as the "most beneficial" clause states. It just so happens that applying Extend before Persist has no distinguishable mechanical effect, in the same way that applying Energy Substitution (Cold) to cone of cold has no distinguishable mechanical effect: it's entirely legal, but also entirely pointless (and, as I mentioned above, I don't know why you'd ever want to do that, but if you ever did, you can).

Persistent Ocular Spell. This can only happen if you apply Ocular Spell first.

According to your interpretation, you can't ever have Persistent Ocular Spell, because when you persist a spell, your saying it applies directly to the spell in question unmodified by other metamagic until the final moment of casting.

Am I correct?

[KillianHawkeye]

It seems like using Divine Metamagic to add more metamagic to a spell that you already prepared with some metamagic on it is akin to using divine energy to hack your spell when you're in the middle of casting it.

As such, you should be able to add in the new metamagic effect in between the spell and the existing metamagic, or put it at the end, whichever way you want.

[Darg]

"Most beneficial order" is only a guideline put forth by the FAQ. Logically speaking a prepared spell is that spell. So a prepared extended Divine Favor is the spell "Extended Divine Favor." Using DMM to persist that applies afterward to make it 24 hours. Then again, you could just DMM as you prepare the spell and then the order doesn't even matter. Of course I'm always on the side of reducing the power of persistent spell and incorporating minimum caster levels to prevent DMM abuse.

[newguydude1]

"Most beneficial order" is only a guideline put forth by the FAQ. Logically speaking a prepared spell is that spell. So a prepared extended Divine Favor is the spell "Extended Divine Favor." Using DMM to persist that applies afterward to make it 24 hours. Then again, you could just DMM as you prepare the spell and then the order doesn't even matter. Of course I'm always on the side of reducing the power of persistent spell and incorporating minimum caster levels to prevent DMM abuse.

you cant dmm while you prepare. it has to be a spell your casting.

[Darg]

you cant dmm while you prepare. it has to be a spell your casting.


As a free action, you can take the energy from turning or rebuking undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat to spells that you know. You must spend one turn or rebuke attempt, plus an additional attempt for each level increase in the metamagic feat you’re using. For example, Jozan the cleric could sacrifice three turn attempts to empower a holy smite he’s casting. Because you’re using positive or negative energy to augment your spells, the spell slot for the spell doesn’t change.

Where does it say that? DMM can be used at anytime during the process of preparing to casting.

[gogogome]

Where does it say that? DMM can be used at anytime during the process of preparing to casting.

He probably has it confused with Illumian's naenhoon.


Naenhoon: Twice per day, the illumian can spend one or more turn or rebuke undead attempts as a swift action to add a metamagic effect to a spell she is casting,

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

RAW on Extend Spell (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#extendSpell):

"An extended spell lasts twice as long as normal."

Normal for the spell is its published duration.

Apply Extend first, then Persistent: normal duration x2 gets replaced by 24-hour duration.

Apply Persistent first, then Extend: normal duration replaced by 24-hour duration, which gets replaced by normal duration x2.

[Darg]

Normal for what?


Normal for the spell is its published duration.

Except that's not normal for a persisted spell. A persisted spell has a normal duration of 24 hours which is its published duration. Nothing says that the effects of multiple Metamagic happen simultaneously; so applying an order to it isn't against RAW.

That said, your interpretation is just as valid as ours so there isn't a wrong in either case. It's all about having fun and 24 hours is strong enough as it is, but 48 hours isn't all that much stronger. If it's a big deal, simply require a minimum caster as appropriate. You have the RAW that you cast the spell as a higher level spell when you apply metamagic. You also have the RAW that a spellcaster needs to be able to cast the spell at the caster level that the class gains access to the spell level. This tones down the persistomancy cheese and doesn't remove the feat's value.

[Gruftzwerg]

Normal for what?



Except that's not normal for a persisted spell. A persisted spell has a normal duration of 24 hours which is its published duration. Nothing says that the effects of multiple Metamagic happen simultaneously; so applying an order to it isn't against RAW.

That said, your interpretation is just as valid as ours so there isn't a wrong in either case. It's all about having fun and 24 hours is strong enough as it is, but 48 hours isn't all that much stronger. If it's a big deal, simply require a minimum caster as appropriate. You have the RAW that you cast the spell as a higher level spell when you apply metamagic. You also have the RAW that a spellcaster needs to be able to cast the spell at the caster level that the class gains access to the spell level. This tones down the persistomancy cheese and doesn't remove the feat's value.

It all breaks down how you define "normal" duration. In 3.5 "normal" refers to unmodified/unchanged imho.

Further I would argue that a "persisted spell" isn't a "normal" spell since it is persisted. And "persistent" is not part of the normal spell name. Just because you prepared it that way or have a scroll of it doesn't change that.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Persistent Ocular Spell. This can only happen if you apply Ocular Spell first.

According to your interpretation, you can't ever have Persistent Ocular Spell, because when you persist a spell, your saying it applies directly to the spell in question unmodified by other metamagic until the final moment of casting.

Am I correct?

Did you perhaps read "you can apply them in either order" as "you can't apply them in either order"? Because your takeaway is the opposite of what my post was saying.

If you want to cast a Persistent Ocular spell, you apply Ocular first, Persistent second, done. Just like how if you want a 48-hour-duration spell you apply Persistent first and Extend second.


RAW on Extend Spell (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#extendSpell):

"An extended spell lasts twice as long as normal."


It all breaks down how you define "normal" duration. In 3.5 "normal" refers to unmodified/unchanged imho.

Further I would argue that a "persisted spell" isn't a "normal" spell since it is persisted. And "persistent" is not part of the normal spell name. Just because you prepared it that way or have a scroll of it doesn't change that.

In 3.5 parlance there's no specific definition of "normal," but in general it means "whatever things were like right before you did this thing" because spells/PrCs/templates/etc. only check for validity when you use/take them, otherwise you get cases like the Dragon Disciple's self-disqualification at level 10.

The spell stacking rules state that things always work as described unless otherwise noted, and multiple effects that manipulate a certain value all stack using normal math so long as they involve real-world values (the "two doublings = one tripling" crit math being a specific exception to that), so there's no reason to think that multiple individual metamagics would be applied to a base spell--and if that were the default (despite that not being stated or implied anywhere) then a bunch of cases like a Sculpted Widened spell would have undefined interactions.

[bean illus]

I'm of the opinion that a normal duration is a normal duration. Therefore, you can't really extend a persistent spell.

[Darg]

I'm of the opinion that a normal duration is a normal duration. Therefore, you can't really extend a persistent spell.

Which is perfectly fine, there simply isn't a RAW answer to the OPs question.

[Brackenlord]

Which is perfectly fine, there simply isn't a RAW answer to the OPs question.
This kind of answer should be a lot more prevalent, some RAW vs RAI discussions get so aggressively heated.

[Darg]

This kind of answer should be a lot more prevalent, some RAW vs RAI discussions get so aggressively heated.

It doesn't help that language isn't universal. Diction can dictate grammatical syntax and language is fluid. Meaning is easily added and taken away.

For one person there can only be one way to read something, but to some one else it could be perfectly valid to read it a different way. That's not including the fallability of the human mind.

It's simply hard to know when someone is wrong or has a different perspective or education.

[Gruftzwerg]

It doesn't help that language isn't universal. Diction can dictate grammatical syntax and language is fluid. Meaning is easily added and taken away.

For one person there can only be one way to read something, but to some one else it could be perfectly valid to read it a different way. That's not including the fallability of the human mind.

It's simply hard to know when someone is wrong or has a different perspective or education.

I've seen a linguistic expert talking about how all languages so far lack precision and thus leads to to much misunderstandings and miscommunication. After hearing his talk, I can say he is right. There are not only language barriers between different languages. It begins within the languages itself since they are so imperfect.

__________________________

Btw, IIRC in 3.5:
Unless it is explicitly mentioned you multiply only the unmodified base value (see Power Attack feat line).
The sole thing that comes to my mind where you are allowed to multiply the total altered values are "some" charge multipliers (dive attack, valorous weapon..).

I don't see any other instance (in 3.5) where "normal" would imply a modified stat. So the best result you could get would be 24h + extended "normal" time