Question about the phrenic template

[skeeter_dan]

I'm DMing an Eberron campaign that has gone from 1st level all the way up to 15th so far. This section of the campaign has a psionic flavour as they go up against the Inspired and I wanted to throw a unique psionic monster at them protecting an ancient temple, so I thought I'd add the phrenic template to an iconic monster: the bulette.

I've always had a soft spot for the ol' land shark and I wanted to make it big and bad, so I advanced it all the way to 27 HD to make it gargantuan and added a couple feats like Snatch and Rend to give it some more physical attacks. But when I got to the psi-like abilities granted by the phrenic template, I had to pause.

The phrenic template says:


Manifester level is equal to the creature’s HD.

That makes the manifester level 27 for the 27 HD bulette. The rules for psi-like abilities say the following:


When a creature uses a psi-like ability, the power is manifested as if the creature had spent a number of power points equal to its manifester level, which may augment the power to improve its damage or save DC.

Nowhere in the SRD or in any of the power descriptions does it give any limit in terms of how high a manifester level can go or limit how many power points can be spent to augment a power other than manifester level, at least not that I can find.

In other words, my phrenic bulette is going to manifest all of its psi-like abilities as if it had used 27 power points. That means when it uses the 1st-level power mind thrust —


For every additional power point you spend, this powerÂ’s damage increases by 1d10 points. For each extra 2d10 points of damage, this power’s save DC increases by 1.

— is it going to do 27d10 damage with a Will save increased by 13? Is that correct?

It also means for defensive precognition, it can increase its AC and saves by +9?


You gain a +1 insight bonus to AC and on all saving throws...For every 3 additional power points you spend, the insight bonus gained increases by 1.

A manifester level of 27 also gives some pretty hefty bonuses to several other powers and gives the phrenic bulette power resistance 37 (10+HD), which will give the psion in my party a headache.

Am I doing this right? Does the phrenic template actually mean a 27 HD creature has a manifester level of 27 and is able to augment all of its psi-like abilities to this degree?

[satorian]

Maybe an epic creature is too much to throw at a level 15 party?

A bulette is normally CR7. Even if you just add the Titanic template instead of advancing (easier than advancing), it becomes CR20 off the bat. Add phrenic, and you're up to CR22. Epic. Stronger than a pit fiend. Is that your goal?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Yes, you're doing the calculations right, as far as I can tell.

Plus, you'd have to add lots of feats to it, which, given it's phrenic, should include some psionic feats.

It's just a little tough for most mid-level parties.

I think you should probably reduce the HD to a more reasonable level; if you want it to be really large so the scene plays out the way you want it to, try changing its psi-like abilities around, and include expansion for up to +2 size categories. That means a Large bulette would be Gargantuan, but without quite as large of a Strength bump.

[The Glyphstone]

Maybe an epic creature is too much to throw at a level 15 party?

A bulette is normally CR7. Even if you just add the Titanic template instead of advancing (easier than advancing), it becomes CR20 off the bat. Add phrenic, and you're up to CR22. Epic. Stronger than a pit fiend. Is that your goal?

This would be CR17, not epic. +18 Hit Dice to a Magical Beast at +1/3CR per HD is +6, making the Gargantuan 27-HD Bulette CR15, then +2 for Phrenic.


@OP: Yes, you did the math right. Challenge Rating is a loose guideline at best, because it can create absurd things like this.

[skeeter_dan]

This would be CR17, not epic. +18 Hit Dice to a Magical Beast at +1/3CR per HD is +6, making the Gargantuan 27-HD Bulette CR15, then +2 for Phrenic.


@OP: Yes, you did the math right. Challenge Rating is a loose guideline at best, because it can create absurd things like this.

Yeah, I had it at CR 17. Good to know I'm not off my rocker. Guess I'll tone down the HD to keep it from getting too ridiculous.

Thanks, folks!

[Kayblis]

Yes, you're correct in your math. This is exactly how psi-like abilities work. You can also choose how to spend the augment points if you have more than one option, so you could drop Defensive Precognition as a Swift action in exchange for reducing the total bonus by 2(6 PP less).

This is a case of getting the most out of your investment - you're raising the creature's HD for very cheap(3 HD per CR), well into epic HDs which is normal, and then applying a template that scales beautifully with HD. An intelligent Undead or an Animal would also see this absurd benefit, because they usually have tons of HD in relation to CR. The Phrenic template is one very strong DM tool exactly for that.

[Anthrowhale]

In this particular case, it's not clear to me that CR17 is a bad value. CR17 monsters are supposed to be a "very challenging" encounter for a level 15 party, quite possibly resulting in character death.

Note though that the 27d10 DC with a DC 23 Will save for zero is [mind-affecting] when Mind Blank may be available and potentially in use and when characters routinely recover from death.

[tyckspoon]

Note though that the 27d10 DC with a DC 23 Will save for zero is [mind-affecting] when Mind Blank may be available and potentially in use and when characters routinely recover from death.

Mind Blank will defang almost every nasty thing the Phrenic template can do - the only offensive ability that isn't mind affecting is Energy Current, and that is.. Not great (largely due to eating your turns maintaining concentration.) The other abilities are all defensive, and while fighting a 27 HD critter with huge extra AC and save bonuses isnt fun it's also not really outside the scope of that level.. But if you dont have the Mind Affecting immunity you get to deal with several rounds of party wide save or loses and area nukes first.

[Dragonexx]

Personally, rather than using HD to determine caster level i'd prefer to go by CR. It's a much more accurate gauge of a creatures strength.