Challenge: Optimise Skill points in 3.5e.

[Asmotherion]

So, I have kind of a challenge for our forum.

I want to see how many skill points one could gather through optimisation.

Feel free to use any PrC as long as it's official, except from Magazines.

The Skill point total should be Sustainable (so, it's ok if it is through a spell, as long as it's duration is 24 hours or more, aka persisted).

There's not really a price. Just curious.

[Shadowquad]

Ok, here's what I propose:

Acquire limitless wealth by your favorite mean (e.g. Wall of Salt, buying ladders and selling 10 ft. poles, etc...)
Repeat the following steps :
Sit in the Otyugh Hole for one week
Dark Chaos Shuffle your newly acquired Iron Will into Open Minded


That's limitless skill points, at the rate of 5 per week, and a casting of Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos

[AvatarVecna]

The above is a bit fecetious but it's also essentially the correct answer. Whether via DCS or feat-replicating items or aging+awaken loops for NI Int or Illithid Savant shenanigans, the real limit on skill ranks is how hard you're willing to cheat. You're going to need to establish some ground rules for what counts.

[Doctor Despair]

For PO, I talk in this thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?622977-That-s-My-Horse!-Optimizing-When-Two-Become-One) about using your animal companion as a bank for floating skill ranks by level 11

[Thurbane]

Without infinite loop stuff, Changeling Rogue (sub levels)/Exemplar, max out Int, and take Open Minded as much as possible.

Are there any feats that give better returns on skill points? Maybe Nymph's Kiss as first available feat?

[Anthrowhale]

I asked a version of this with the extra constraint of spellcasting here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?579639-Skillful-Full-Casters).

[Twurps]

Without infinite loop stuff, Changeling Rogue (sub levels)/Exemplar, max out Int, and take Open Minded as much as possible.

Are there any feats that give better returns on skill points? Maybe Nymph's Kiss as first available feat?

That would have been my first 'go-to' response as well, but then I started doing the math:
Changeling rogue substitution levels give 10 skill points per level. Now I believe that RAW it would only be on the 3 levels you actually get to substitute anything. All other levels are 'just' +8.
(If a changeling rogue gets 10 points at every level, Changeling rogue 20 is probably the best way to go.)

So going changeling for this substitution level would yield only 6(3levels, including first)*2extra skill points for a total of 12. Going plain ol' boring human with +1 point per level actually beats that by level 20, AND we get a bonus feat for 'open minded' 1 more time.

Nymphs kiss would indeed be better at lvl 1, for another 20 extra points over 20 levels.
Exemplar would be a straight upgrade from rogue, because you can get 'open minded' as a bonus feat 3x over 10 levels. 1 level of Marshall could net us the required skill focus feat to qualify. Marshal loses us 4 skill points per level, but we save a feat-slot for open minded, so that's a net win of 1 point.
I don't think either rogue 10 or exemplar 10 have much to offer, so it's a toss-up which gets 10 levels, and which get 9. I'm ignoring multiclass penalties, as 'getting to 20 in good pace' isn't part of the challenge.

So that makes for:
Human: Rogue 9/10, Marshal 1, exemplar 9/10.
Feats: Nymps kiss (Human bonus)
skill focus diplomacy (Marshall 1)
Open minded 10x (7 regular feats, and 3 exemplar feats)

Total skill points: 19x10+1x6(levels)+50(open minded)=246 without INT mod bonus.

Ways to improve on this would be:
-Templates that boost int. We can drop 1 level without losing feats. so a +1 template would have to net us 10 points over 19 levels to be worth it. That's basically anything with a +2 int, so I'm sure there's something good out there. For a +2 we lose a feat(exemplar lvl9 bonus feat), so that would have to recover 25 skill points over 18 levels, putting us in +4 int territory.
-Any (prestige) classes with a bonus feat at lvl 1 (capable of selecting open minded) and at least 4 skill points per level? if we squeeze those in before lvl 10 that might also help, as long as the entry requirements don't include feats (or are limited to fighter bonus feats, which we could get via feat-rogue.)

[Anthrowhale]

...

Human Paragon 3 will improve on this.

Another strong contender is a primordial giant half giant which converts into a spellscale for the last level if there is no level buyoff.

[Gruftzwerg]

If infinite loops are allowed, BoBaFeat (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?503665)

Void Disciple lvl 4 gives the Moment of Clarity ability, which can give someone temporary either a feat or skillranks (!).
With infinite loops, you get unlimited stats, ranks, feats, SLAs... you get the point ;)

[Bullet06320]

get one of these, adds ranks and int so more skill points per level going forward

The Codex Anathema (LoM p 214) grants an inherent +2 int/-2 wis, as well as 5 ranks Knowledge (dungeoneering) and 2 ranks each of Knowledge (arcana) and (the planes)

[bean illus]

The most skill points, or the most skill access?

The best skill access is through spells.
Chameleon has access to skill buffing spells on cleric/bard/ all list etc., and is littered with skill bonuses, and 'always on' ability buffs that will boost skill modifiers.

Factotum 3 grants Int mod to 12 skills, and stacks up to 100+ modifier. I'll stack marshal aura on there. Motivate Charisma for a secondary ability (14) +2 mod boost to 8 more important skills, which is easy to buff to +4 or +6 later, at 2 to 1 due to marshal.
(a + 6 item raises cha checks +3, and marshal doubles it to +6 in 8 cha skills = 48. You could choose to motivate Int for 17 skills, Str for 9, or Wis for 6 skills, as you wish. I chose cha because factotum boost str, dex, and int, but motivate wis is quite valid, too.)


Human, with 18 Int, able learner, nymphs kiss, extend spell, and know devo.


Rouge 1 = 56 ranks
Human Paragon 3: +2 Int = 30
Facto 3: brains over brawn = 39/ +60*

Level 8
Marshal 1: 22 Int, motivate Cha = 12/ +72/ (+16, +2 = 24/48**)
Cloistered Cleric 1: Zeal, Luck = 14
Chameleon 6: = 72

Level 16
Cham +1/7: +5 tome/Int 29 = 13/ +108/ (+16, +4 = 32/64)
Cham +3/10: = 39
Exemplar 1: Int 30 = 20

Total = 285 (&) +120/156* (&) 16, +6 = 40/80**

*facto bonuses, without and with magic item
** marshal bonuses, without and with magic item


With a +6 Cha item:

285 ranks
Every skill a class skill forever
All 17 Int skills + 13 mod
All 12 Str/Dex skills +13 mod
All 9 Cha skills +12 mod
All 6 Wis skills +5 mod
+3 1/day bonus any skill, 3/day
+50 magic any skill, from low level class spells and wands, which we craft
1/day Take 20
1/day reroll any
Skill mastery T10 in 11 skills
A handful (6-8?) of +4 bonuses
19 +2 skill synergy bonuses
5 open feats [General] (open minded?)
Full know devo, +5 attack and damage vs ... everything?
Chameleon spell access sweetness, which includes caster level 20, and divine power for BAB +20.


Know devo wants 138 points, but isn't getting it. We'll top it off at 16 ranks, and our +13 mod will make every roll of 2 a +4, and a roll of 7 for +5.
Total 6 x 16 = 96, remainder 285-96 = 189.

If you put one rank in 'everything' you'll dump about 39 more ranks. If you pick up 'all' the synergies you want, you might dump 32 on things other than know devo.

Some conservative views say skip this step, and max 9 skills. It's good advice. We're not gonna take it.
Cunning knowledge needs 1 rank. Add dex 14, cats grace, brains over brawn, and cunning insight for 1+2+2+3+13 = +21 to any brains over brawn skill for the slightest buff.
When it's time to swim, or heal, or appraise, a master skill monkey should swim, or heal, or appraise, and it shouldn't need a hassle for a check. We'll take 6 synergies, for 30 points, creating 12 +2 bonuses. That leaves 42-6-6= 30 skills at 1 rank each.


285 - 96 - 30 - 30 = 131 unassigned points.

The last 131 ranks are free to 'max' 6-7+ skills (many skills have ranks already). If you burn 5 feats on open minded, you have 156. Max 7 skills with 22 (they each have at least 1, already).

You've got 7 skills at max rank, 6 knowledges at 16 (+13=29), bonuses dripping out of your pores, and all the spells you'd want.

This build hits 50-100 in 'every' skill, all day

The weakness seems to be in wisdom skills that happen repeatedly. Listen and spot, primarily, but also sense motive. You're probably leaning towards maxing all 3 of them, anyway.

Worse case? A series of survival checks, with only one rank? We've used cunning inspiration, and want to save our T 20, and our free reroll. We'd rather not burn surge of fortune. We have a 12 wis, and a +6 wis competence from chameleon. Total +6 mod on survival. Time to cast improvisation, for 40 floating luck bonus 'skill points'.

On the magic side, we can use extend spell and wands to make things easy, but it works without it.

Combining guidance, divine insight, and improvisation total +45 without a sweat, for two cleric 2, and one bard 1 spells. It's available all skills, all day through wands and spells.

Surge of fortune cleric 5 is a T20 on any skill.
With max ranks, hide 23 + dex 2, buff 2, BoB 13, and magic +65, = 85 all day, T105 possible.

[Twurps]

Human Paragon 3 will improve on this.

Agreed, I got ninja'd by your link so didn't realize until after posting.
Another thing that just occured to me: if we're disregarding infinite loops and 'dark chaos' shuffling shenanigans, would this be a situation where Vow of poverty could actually be usefull? (I know, I must be insane, I'll get myself checked into a mental institution shortly, but hear me out first)

With magical (non permanent) bonusses to INT not counting towards bonus skill points, we're left with what? tomes? they cap out at +5.
Vow of poverty has a boost of +8 to one stat. (and though it is an enhancement bonus, it's not derived from spells or magic items, and thus isn't explicitly excluded. I'd say that makes them permanent enough to be included, although I'm not aware of any direct quote of the sort). The first (modest) +2 kicks in as early as lvl7, which is earlier than a tome of +2 is affordable. Vow of poverty offers exalted feats, of which 'nymphs kiss' is one, and can be taken right at lvl1: so it can all be done with a net investment of just 1 feat at lvl1.

[noob]

You cap in term of skill points once you maxed all the skills for your hit dice: at that point you should start increasing hd.

[Asmotherion]

The above is a bit fecetious but it's also essentially the correct answer. Whether via DCS or feat-replicating items or aging+awaken loops for NI Int or Illithid Savant shenanigans, the real limit on skill ranks is how hard you're willing to cheat. You're going to need to establish some ground rules for what counts.

True enough, though I was also initially interested in seeing what other loopholes are out there.

But, here, some ground rules:

A) No infinite loops; Anything causing an infinite loop will be assumed to repeat only 1 instance for purposes of calculation.

B) The main focus it to make the largest pool of skill points total. The total bonus of any particular skill is irrelevant for the purposes of this thread.

C) I'd like to see a skill point total at levels 6/12/20 and the sweet spot of the build.

[ShurikVch]

Two questions:

Firstly, how about the Darklight Wizard?
This class from Kingdoms of Kalamar stated as PrC, but in fact - it wipes away all your class progressions and leave you as a 1st-level Darklight Wizard
Thus, you can again get the skill points from 20 levels of class progressions, and from increased Int every 4 levels
(Note: transition into Darklight Wizard removes your class levels, but leaves ability scores, feats, and skill ranks intact)

And secondly - I know you said "No NI loops", but there's two "corner cases":
Elixir of Eternity (minor artifact) prevents death from old age, and gives +1 Int every 200 years (but -1 to all physical ability scores every 100 years)
Unspeakable Oath spell (Call of Cthulhu d20) - among the things you may get is +1 Int 1/year (or at level ups); the catch - if your PC is ever drained to Cha 0, they would become an Evil NPC (with the Chosen of Hastur template)

[Doctor Despair]

And secondly - I know you said "No NI loops", but there's two "corner cases":
Elixir of Eternity (minor artifact) prevents death from old age, and gives +1 Int every 200 years (but -1 to all physical ability scores every 100 years)


How does that interact with characters immune to the penalties of aging, such as Dragonwrought Kobolds (or just dragons)?

[Maat Mons]

How do you feel about Bardic Knack? It gives you ranks in all skills equal to half your Bard level, sort of. I'm not sure how many different Craft, Knowledge (local), Perform, and Profession skills exist, but it's probably a lot.