Paladin Fighter Multiclass

[Albert]

Hello,

I've got a level 6 Oath of Vengeance Paladin who just leveled up to 7 and I'm thinking of taking 3 levels of Fighter Battlemaster (6/3 Paladin Fighter).

I've read elsewhere that Fighter Paladin isn't considered a very optimal multiclass, but just looking at the fighter abilities I'm not sure why this is the case? With the Superior Technique addition from Tasha's Cauldron a Battlemaster will have 5 Superiority Dice combined with Action Surge by level 3. All on a short rest no less. That combined with 5 Divine Smites+1 Hunter's Mark per long rest seems like a killer combo, especially because you can Maneuver, Smite and Action Surge all on the same turn.

The main problem seems to stem from the fact that I'll delay the number of smites I get until later, but I kind of wonder if this even matters. With good resource management you can use the Fighter powers all day long until the end of the day/dungeon/battlefield at which point you'll have your entire, unblemished Paladin arsenal ready to go (and maybe even your fighter kit if you've short rested). That seems pretty scary to me.

Also things like riposte, menacing attack and trip attack seem really great to augment raw damage.

Does anyone have any thoughts? Is it really more optimal to go Warlock or Sorcerer for multiclassing? Or is sticking with Paladin just better? Thanks!

[Bullman]

Here's my five cents.

Multiclassing is usually done to get more flexibility, but the trade-off is that you lose some power. What paladin tends to lack most is long distance damage. This can be countered by dipping into sorcerer or warlock for at-will ranged damage in the form of cantrips. They also get a few more spell slots to blast or SMITE the heretics. Cantrips scale on the character level, and not on the class level which makes this a viable strategy (IIRC, haven't played so much). Cantrips are also based on your secondary skill (in STR builds) which makes them even better for ranged than a bow.

Your build seems to focus more on the sustained melee damage. Taking fighter to get the short rest goodies might be a good idea to get to the end of adventuring day with more resources left to kick the BBEGs ass.

So it all comes down to your preferences. If you feel like you need ranged damage to engage fleeing targets and get a little more nova potential on the side, dip into sorcerer or warlock. If you want to have more options in melee combat and save long rest resources on long days, dip into fighter. If you feel like you don't need any of those, then consider staying with the single-class paladin.

[MrCharlie]

The main concerns here are delaying paladin features and delaying ability scores/feats, and both should be treated as a real concern. My general advice is that, if you are using point buy, you want to get to 20 in your attack stat first because to hit is too important and often such a crucial edge for player characters-monster AC is low and your to hit numbers are high. Also, feats are generally very powerful, and you always get more feats from a single class unless you go exactly 12 into your main class and eight into fighter. Some classes like feats more, but with Tasha's that is less true-generally everyone can find something to spend a feat on.

Otherwise, you want to choose a break point. Levels 5, 6, 11, and 15 are good ones, as they either get you extra attack, CHA saving throws, improved divine smite, or your last non-capstone sacred oath feature. 12 is also decent because it's a feat. If you expect the game to continue to 20, then I'd consider going to paladin 11 or 12 first, but again, 6 is also a wonderful place to break off for a while.

The reason why Fighter/Paladin is usually panned, by the way, is because there isn't much synergy and paladin has super synergistic multiclasses like Sorcerer and hexblade-and further, fighter requires 3 levels to get much worthwhile out of it. People either like small dips or synergistic ones.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Is the benefit worth the trade off of the things you are going to miss out on or delay?
I wouldn't rate the 7th level Vengeance ability very high, so no concern there. As you say an issue is the additional smites, but the spells you could cast are likewise a factor. I'd say Haste is a bit of a loss, but that is countered to some extent by the Action Surge, the Maneuvers, and the fact you still have Hunter's Mark as your concentration spell. Further down the track, the 10th level Aura of Courage our group has found to be a game changer in some encounters in tier 3; without something like this if your group is fighting a dragon or something else with a fear aura, there's a good chance half of the party is running. Then you potentially have a mess.
Maybe Improved Smite is also countered by the Fighter abilities.
And depending how long you are playing, the 4th level spells need to be considered. A flying steed might be a need more than a want depending on the campaign.

[MrStabby]

The main concerns here are delaying paladin features and delaying ability scores/feats, and both should be treated as a real concern. My general advice is that, if you are using point buy, you want to get to 20 in your attack stat first because to hit is too important and often such a crucial edge for player characters-monster AC is low and your to hit numbers are high. Also, feats are generally very powerful, and you always get more feats from a single class unless you go exactly 12 into your main class and eight into fighter. Some classes like feats more, but with Tasha's that is less true-generally everyone can find something to spend a feat on.

Otherwise, you want to choose a break point. Levels 5, 6, 11, and 15 are good ones, as they either get you extra attack, CHA saving throws, improved divine smite, or your last non-capstone sacred oath feature. 12 is also decent because it's a feat. If you expect the game to continue to 20, then I'd consider going to paladin 11 or 12 first, but again, 6 is also a wonderful place to break off for a while.

The reason why Fighter/Paladin is usually panned, by the way, is because there isn't much synergy and paladin has super synergistic multiclasses like Sorcerer and hexblade-and further, fighter requires 3 levels to get much worthwhile out of it. People either like small dips or synergistic ones.

I wouldn't agree that there isn't much synergy.

To me, a lack of synergy is if you were to take fighter bard where spellcasting and the attack action are competing for your turn. Fighter/Paldin still resolves round the attack action so it isn't that bad.


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To me, the problem is that the extra 3 levels of Paladin are generally just that damn good. Paladin levels bring more spell slots, more spells known and, more lay on hands as well as awesome class abilities. 3 levels in fighter will also cost you an ASI which is something a paladin can really benefit from.

I mean, its not crazy and I am not saying manouvres are not good or action surge etc. isn't good... but is it worth losing out on 4th or 5th level spells for? Improved divine smite? Begger/better auras?

Often there is a trade off between flexability and raw power with multiclass representing the former an single class the latter. In this case, as Paladin is so flexible by itself, able to fill so many different roles at high level, it is a bit reversed. You double down on hitting people with something pointy, but as you still get better at that with more levels in Paladin, it feels like you are trading flexability for not that much in return.

[Necrosnoop110]

Multiclassing is usually done to get more flexibility, but the trade-off is that you lose some power.
Don't mean to derail the thread but why do so many people think multi-classing in 5e is OP munchkin power-gaming craziness? I can't understand it myself.

[MrStabby]

Don't mean to derail the thread but why do so many people think multi-classing in 5e is OP munchkin power-gaming craziness? I can't understand it myself.

I think its the gap between what multiclassing can do and what in practice it does do.

Mostly, an MC you could do won't be that powerful. It is kind of the nature of replacing higher level abilities with lower level ones. Sometimes, rarely even, class abilities interact in a positive way to give disproportionate power. These are the multiclass characters that some powergamers actually play.

So yes, a ranger/wizard trades power for versatility. Sorcerer/Paladin gets both.

[Galithar]

You need to analyze what you get versus start you give up. I'm going to break this down as if the campaign ends at level 9 because it simplifies the analysis greatly.

So one level of fighter gains a fighting style and second wind. That's going to be something like +1 AC or +2 Damage on hit and just barely over 1d10 healing per short rest.
The trade is Relentless Avenger. Very situational ability. It gets better with PAM proccing AoO more often. And a second level spell slot.

Level 2 is Action Surge. An additional action per short rest. That could potentially double your damage for a round not too bad.
The trade is an ASI. That's a lot. It could up your to hit and damage, your HP, or be a feat. This is a very strong option.

Level 3 is maneuvers (potentially also eating an ASI to get the feat allowing more superiority die)
The trade is third level spells and 2 slots.


Breakdown: Fighter levels give you a bigger Nova potential that you can do less often.
Paladin gives you more sustain and slightly boosts your Nova potential, but adds 3 more smite attempts to the mix and access to some things like Haste which basically gives you 1/2 an action surge a round at the cost of a third level slot.


My vote would be very strongly to stay single classed unless you have a very specific thing you NEED to do well. For example, if your party uses a lot of Darkness or Fog Cloud. Blindfighting could be invaluable to you. (Note this could also be grabbed with your level 8 Paladin feat)

Once you extend beyond level 9 it tilts even more in favor of staying as a Paladin in my opinion.

Edit: If the campaign ended at level 7 I would say Leven 1 fighter is more valuable. Anything beyond that Fighter is a net loss in my book.

[da newt]

I was about to post pretty much exactly what Galithar did - side by side, level for level, this vs that, but he's already beat me to it.

What I would add is if you mostly use your spells for smites, it might be worth looking at Barb because a few levels gets you a bunch - rage, danger sense, reckless, and subclass (bear for example) ...