Whip it, whip it good - Can we make the whip a damage weapon?

[Mobius Twist]

I envisioned a completely ridiculous concept of a ringmaster/lion tamer fighting with a whip and a chair (instead of a shield).

My goal: Make a character that can meaningfully contribute from Tier 1 through Tier 3, hopefully as a combination of tank and damage dealer. Keep the enemies at bay, whip them into submission, or whoop their butts, as the situation calls for it.

Classes
Hexblade/Blade Pact provides the necessary tools and makes a streamlined SAD build easy.
Potentially throwing away the Blade pact for an early combat assistant from Pact of the Chain that then can be buffed with advanced invocations is an option.

Fighter with the Dueling fighting style can add a bit of damage to the otherwise lackluster d4.
Couple that with Battle Master for periodic damage/utility buffs would also be cool.

Feats
This would lack the "can't move past me" cheese of PAM+Sentinel, but Sentinel on its own is still reasonable with the Reach quality.
Having enough Dex to qualify for Defensive Duelist can be stylistic, but not damagy.
Slasher is a new favorite right off the bat, which coincidentally pairs with Fighter-Champion nicely.

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What am I missing? Is there a good multi-classing point into a martial class that would make up for killing short the warlock progression? Is Whip meant to be a niche weapon not worth all this trouble?

[gorfnab]

Spell Sniper feat + Booming Blade spell

[Sherlockpwns]

There are lots of ways to make a whip work. I mean people get scared of the d4, but it’s literally 2 dmg per attack less than a sword.

That said what makes it unique is finesse and reach and one handed, so to get it to do something nothing else can you would aim for dex build + shield + some reason to want to be 10ft away.

These are the most obvious combos, many can be combined or need to be combined.

Spell sniper and BB as above. This can be done as a feat and is kind of the biggest deal.

Monk Kensei (so the d4 doesn’t matter as much, but the lack of shield is annoying. You could dual wield whips though. )

Any rogue for sneak damage. ( you’ll need a way to get shield and whip prof)

Paladins for reach smite, which is the only 10ft smite with a shield combo.

Of course any sword and board combo works too, just trading 2 dmg per hit for reach, so a warlock is fine. A fighter is fine. Etc.

If I were building one with the whole lion taming in mind I’d consider if I wanted an actual lion as part of the schtick.

You could go for the new Tasha Beastmaster, taking an earth companion in the form of a lion. Grab your whip, a chair shield, take dueling at 2 and spell sniper at 4 if you want to do the BB thing. The only odd thing about going with BB is you really don’t need the extra attack at 5, so it’s very possible to detour at 4 into rogue for sneak dmg (made easier by having a lion companion) and other sneaky things. Or really practically any class. You may want to come back to leveling Beast Master eventually to give your companion more than 20hp, but maybe you just use it as a sacrifice at later levels and focus on other things. Oh and you don’t need to take BB at all really. Two attacks plus a lion is still quite good.

My last suggestion is to consider the new slasher feat. Could be interesting!

Anyway, whips are fun. Don’t avoid them!

[Konradhelt]

I use a whip on my hexblade 1/swashbuckler 5, go into mêlée and strike with booming blade, move 5ft back and prepare my haste action for an extra sneak. If the monster wants to engage they tricker booming blade DoT. And it fits with your ringmaster with SAD Cha.

And it doesn't require feats, so you are still free to do a lot of other things depending on what you wanna specialise in 😊

[Unoriginal]

New options from the Tasha's let you select any one weapon as your Monk weapon, provided you're proficient with it, and it also let you swap your racial weapon proficiency.

So (for example) you could have a Dwarf or an Elf who makes 2 attacks for 1d6/1d8/1d10+DEXorSTRmod with a whip, without spending a feat, should you go Monk.

[ScoutTrooper]

Could ask the DM if Armorer's Handbook (https://www.dmsguild.com/product/300395/The-Armorers-Handbook-Equipment-Upgrade-and-Rune-Magic-System) could be utilized for the table and their world. It has options and mechanics that allow mundane weapons to be upgraded.

[Waazraath]

My build voor optimization throwdown #8 was a whip build: https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24743054&postcount=14

Don't think it works with Tasha's version of Booming Blade though (but for this, I consider it entirely optional rules :))

[JellyPooga]

Barbarian/Rogue fulfils the criteria here very well. I've had success with it and a ton of fun in actual play.

- Rage damage resistance, Shield + Med Armour proficiency, Uncanny Dodge, Evasion...it's all the Tank you can hope for.
- Rage damage boost plus Sneak Attack makes the Whip base damage largely irrelevant.
- The Whip itself, plus Sentinel gives you a remarkable range of control in confined spaces (i.e. most of them) and the off-turn Sneak Attacks are scary enough that you really do control that area.
- Cunning Action, Expertise in Athletics and the advantage on Strength checks from Rage makes manipulating heavy terrain very much an option in combat; double-down on the control that Whip+SA+Sentinel gives you.
- Cunning Action and increased speed lets you be where you need to be to do your job most efficiently.

It's not even that MAD; Dex 14 is all you need to max AC with medium armour, pump Str and Con as primaries and you can give lip service to your mental stat(s) of choice. My preferred archetypes are Wolf Totem Barbarian and Thief Rogue for maximum party assistance, basic athleticism and Use and Object as a bonus action, but I hear the argument for Bear Totem, Swashbuckler and even Arcane Trickster (while you can't "double-up" on using Rage and magic simultaneously, you can extend your utility both in and out of combat with spellcasting).

It's a build that works right out of the Core Books (though it can be enhanced with your choice of splat archetypes, of course) and remains one of the most entertaining 5ed characters I've ever had the pleasure of playing. It's a remarkably simple build, but one with layers of complexity in play. It's relatively resource-light (just watch when/how often you Rage), and it's very HP efficient (at peak performance, every HP counts as four), so it just keeps on giving throughout the adventuring day with low drain on party resources (i.e. healing spell/potions). Not only that, but it also has avenues for participation in non-combat spheres of play via Expertise (and later Reliable Talent); this build is no mere muscle-headed brute! No, he can also be any combination of a smooth, fast-talkin' faceman, a wary and cunning scout or even an erudite scholar in the natural sciences or perhaps the arcane arts, with the right backgrounds and skill choices.

[nickl_2000]

Given the rearranging stats/weapons options and the Monk Weapon option of Tasha's, you can make a pretty strong Way of the Spectral Self Monk.

Go Elf, Dwarf, or another race with racial martial weapons. Trade off one of the martial weapons for proficiency in the Whip. Make the Whip your dedicated weapon. Now the damage of the whip goes from 1d4 to your martial arts die.

Then you are going Way of the Spectral Self, this will allow your unarmed strikes with the Arms of the Astral Self to have reach meaning that you can land both the whip attacks and bonus action unarmed strikes from reach. Since you are a monk, you can hold the chair in the other hand without worrying about AC (wis + dex) and don't need armor.

[JackPhoenix]

Spell Sniper feat + Booming Blade spell

Doesn't work anymore.

[Sception]

Consider Conquest Paladin. The lion tamer with whip & chair/shield isn't /slaying/ the lions, they're cowing them, intimidating them into submission. This is well reflected by the conquest paladin's focus on frighten effects, and in particular their Aura of Conquest ability that immobilizes frightened enemies within the aura. This ability synergizes fantastically with reach weapons, since once trapped by the aura, the Conqueror can then attack the enemy freely while the enemy cannot respond unless they also have reach or ranged attack options. It doesn't matter so much if the paladin is dealing reduced damage at that point, since a trapped non-reach melee enemy isn't doing /any/ damage and can be defeated at leisure, particularly if they were originally frightened by Wrathful Smite which is exceedingly difficult to escape (burn an action for a wisdom check, not save - at disadvantage due to frighten - against spell DC), or the Fear spell, which is literally impossible to escape without breaking line of sight to the paladin, which the target can't do on their own due to being immobilized by the aura.

The down side of traditional reach weapons like halberd or glaive on the build is that Conquest Paladin is a tank/controller build that relies on concentration saves. They're going to and often even want to attract enemy attacks, so they're loathe to give up their shield.

Whip and Shield is thus a naturally attractive equipment set for Conquerors, and even Conquerors who typically fight with a long sword or the like are well served by keeping a whip as a backup option.


Even when looking primarily at damage output - after all, some enemies are immune to frighten and many more have strong enough wisdom saves that they might as well be immune, often forcing Conquerors into the single-target-damage focus typical of other paladins - Paladin in general is still an attractive option here, with access to in-class damage boosting options including the Dueling Combat style, Divine Smite, the Spirit Shrouds spell, and eventually Improved Divine Smite, which all work just as well on whips as on any other weapon, and make the base damage difference between whip and long sword equivalents relatively minor in the long term.

[ImproperJustice]

Pre-Tasha’s, I made a Trevor Belmont type character that was a Monster Slayer Revised Ranger.

Max Dex at 9th level, +2 weapon with Greater Favored Enemy (Fiends and Undead) and Slayer’s Prey was something like:
1d4+11+1d6 2x round when slaying favored monsters.
Having reach from the whip kept me out of trouble, and if the fight went on long enough I would get a Zephyr Strike in there.
I was tempted to use Hunter’s Mark but it was too fiddly with the subclass feature and usually used Prot. from Evil instead for the defensive benefits.

[Zwordsman]

Spell Sniper feat + Booming Blade spell

I used to do this with green flame blade and my alchemist; but the new wording on the new eratta on GFB/BB prevents it from working (range is self now; despite the listed 5ft in description).
So ask GM first.

but that was what I had done in the past with my Alchemist! Green Flame Blade + Alchemical SAvant + UA Poisoner, i basically made a decently effective non multi attack melee skirmisher

I sort of want to make a Fighter-multiclass something with smite, who uses Two WEapon fighting, the fighting styles and the feat to just two whip crazy good.

[Sherlockpwns]

I used to do this with green flame blade and my alchemist; but the new wording on the new eratta on GFB/BB prevents it from working (range is self now; despite the listed 5ft in description).
So ask GM first.

but that was what I had done in the past with my Alchemist! Green Flame Blade + Alchemical SAvant + UA Poisoner, i basically made a decently effective non multi attack melee skirmisher

I sort of want to make a Fighter-multiclass something with smite, who uses Two WEapon fighting, the fighting styles and the feat to just two whip crazy good.

Pretty sure that is a paladin 2, fighter x :). Probably an EK for some extra smite?

The real question is if you go dex or just str in plate.

I suppose my build would be

Fighter 2, style two weapon
Fighter 3, ek
Fighter 4, dual wielding- whips are now fully online!
Paladin 2, style defense (now you have the same ac as someone with a shield!)
Fighter 6, maybe defensive duelist if you go dex, sentinel if you go str?
Fighter 8 and beyond, asi.
Maybe add 1-2 more paladin levels for the spells, subclass, and another asi.

Smites would be limited, but you are still dishing out decent damage with decent ac.

[kazaryu]

I use a whip on my hexblade 1/swashbuckler 5, go into mêlée and strike with booming blade, move 5ft back and prepare my haste action for an extra sneak. If the monster wants to engage they tricker booming blade DoT. And it fits with your ringmaster with SAD Cha.

And it doesn't require feats, so you are still free to do a lot of other things depending on what you wanna specialise in 😊

unfortuantely, you can't 'ready' the hasted action. the 'ready' action isn't one of the options. you'd have to use the hasted action to attack, and then ready BB after stepping back. (obviously this is RaW. play however y'all want)

[Konradhelt]

Agreed, sorry for the phrasing - You attack with your haste action and ready your normal action to attack. I haven't prioritized warcaster, so I can't ready BB, therefore I step back to attack with sneak attack only, the BB reach attack wouldn't be possible even with spell sniper as I understand it now with Tasha's?

[Quietus]

I used to do this with green flame blade and my alchemist; but the new wording on the new eratta on GFB/BB prevents it from working (range is self now; despite the listed 5ft in description).
So ask GM first.

Tiny bit of pedantry, the range of self (5 feet) isn't the problem; Spell Sniper can still modify that. Sage Advice has clarified that the bladetrips are still valid for Warcaster, and that you're not targetting yourself, you're just using yourself as the origination point, effectively. The 5 ft listed in the description is 100% of the issue; Spell Sniper can alter the spell's listed range, as a mechanical feature, but doesn't touch spell descriptions.

[Galithar]

Tiny bit of pedantry, the range of self (5 feet) isn't the problem; Spell Sniper can still modify that. Sage Advice has clarified that the bladetrips are still valid for Warcaster, and that you're not targetting yourself, you're just using yourself as the origination point, effectively. The 5 ft listed in the description is 100% of the issue; Spell Sniper can alter the spell's listed range, as a mechanical feature, but doesn't touch spell descriptions.

I'm also betting that most non AL DMs will allow the combo still. I know that I am.

[JackPhoenix]

Tiny bit of pedantry, the range of self (5 feet) isn't the problem; Spell Sniper can still modify that. Sage Advice has clarified that the bladetrips are still valid for Warcaster, and that you're not targetting yourself, you're just using yourself as the origination point, effectively. The 5 ft listed in the description is 100% of the issue; Spell Sniper can alter the spell's listed range, as a mechanical feature, but doesn't touch spell descriptions.

Yep. It's similar to trying to combine Distant spell metamagic and Counterspell. You can technically double Counterspell's range, but the trigger for the reaction is still seeing a creature within 60' cast a spell, which means the double range is pointless.