would summoning a lemure qualify you for tainted sorcerer?

[newguydude1]

Special: Must have learned the basics of taint magic from a tainted sorcerer of at least 4th level, or must have summoned a demon or devil to gain instruction.

i dont want to use fiendish summoning specialist except as an absolute last resort because it requires dm negotiation.

anyways summon monster ii summons a lemure. devil. done. i summoned a devil to gain instruction.

now the problem here is that lemures are explicitly unable to communicate. its in their stat block (mindless) and fluff description.


Lemures are mindless and cannot communicate, but they are sensitive to telepathic messages from other devils, typically obeying a devil’s mental commands.

so....

i mean "to gain instruction" can be interpreted as you studying a creature right? if you study a creature, you can get the know how to do something right?
also if im being pedantic, i just need to summon a devil in an attempt to gain instruction, i dont actually have to gain instruction from the devil do i? the sentence structure, the action i need to perform is summon a devil, and "to gain instruction" is just my reason for something, has absolutely nothing to do with what i need to do right?
or a third interpretation, simply summoning the devil results in gaining instruction.

or is this all just me being unreasonable, and i need to grab fiendish summoning specialist and add a mane to sm ii's list?

has to be smi or smii because smiii is too late for what im trying to do.

[Venger]

Your reading is reasonable and correct. If your gm's allowing tainted sorcerer in the first place, somehow I can't see them caring about this kind of thing.

[gogogome]

simply summoning the devil results in gaining instruction..

This is how I read it. In my opinion the requirement entry is telling you that simply summoning a devil results in gaining instruction.

[Vaern]

has to be smi or smii because smiii is too late for what im trying to do.

Can't you just buy a scroll of smiii and make the fact that lemures can't communicate a complete non-issue? The class doesn't require the ability to summon a devil or demon, only that you do somehow.

[newguydude1]

Can't you just buy a scroll of smiii and make the fact that lemures can't communicate a complete non-issue? The class doesn't require the ability to summon a devil or demon, only that you do somehow.

to do what i plan to do i need a 250gp ruby. but i dont like the fact that if im in a campaign that doesnt have a magic shop or an expensive jewelry store, im screwed, so grabbing tainted sorcerer is my backup plan in such scenarios.

now i just need to figure out a way to acquire taint that isnt dependent on location or specific items... but that's a discussion for my other thread i made.
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?623488-taint-prc-requirements-and-obtaining-taint

[sreservoir]

A campaign that "doesn't have a magic shop" simply does not function correctly in 3.5e unless the GM is very careful with handing out treasure. Rather than this whole runaround around getting specific material components, you should consider seriously talking through your expectations for the campaign with your group and what adjustments might need to be made to accommodate them.

They way you're going about things, you're just going to wind up in an interpretation disagreement 10 minutes in that none of you will budge on and nobody's going to come out of that happy.

[ShurikVch]

How about the Sacrifice rules from the Book of Vile Darkness?
Check result 35 results in appearance of Evil outsider which would serve for 1 hour/character's HD, 40 - grants 1-time Limited Wish, and 50 - Wish...

[Crake]

To gain instruction means to be taught. Lemures are literally mindless. They cannot teach you anything. I would say the minimum devil requirement would be at least an imp (or, y'know, anything that isn't mindless), and it would need to be summoned for a decent amount of time, not just for a couple rounds from a Summon Monster spell, as that's nowhere near enough time to organize lessons.


How about the Sacrifice rules from the Book of Vile Darkness?
Check result 35 results in appearance of Evil outsider which would serve for 1 hour/character's HD, 40 - grants 1-time Limited Wish, and 50 - Wish...

Yeah, actually, sacrifice rules would be perfect for this.

[redking]

i mean "to gain instruction" can be interpreted as you studying a creature right? if you study a creature, you can get the know how to do something right?

Right. That's why Harvard university uses cockroaches to teach (instruct) their courses.

[newguydude1]

To gain instruction means to be taught. Lemures are literally mindless. They cannot teach you anything. I would say the minimum devil requirement would be at least an imp (or, y'know, anything that isn't mindless), and it would need to be summoned for a decent amount of time, not just for a couple rounds from a Summon Monster spell, as that's nowhere near enough time to organize lessons.



Yeah, actually, sacrifice rules would be perfect for this.

venger says you gain the instruction just from the act of summoning a devil.


A campaign that "doesn't have a magic shop" simply does not function correctly in 3.5e unless the GM is very careful with handing out treasure. Rather than this whole runaround around getting specific material components, you should consider seriously talking through your expectations for the campaign with your group and what adjustments might need to be made to accommodate them.

They way you're going about things, you're just going to wind up in an interpretation disagreement 10 minutes in that none of you will budge on and nobody's going to come out of that happy.

i made plenty of no wealth characters so it does work and i like it because it removes a layer of complexity i didnt want to bother with anyway. spellcasters are op even when naked.


How about the Sacrifice rules from the Book of Vile Darkness?
Check result 35 results in appearance of Evil outsider which would serve for 1 hour/character's HD, 40 - grants 1-time Limited Wish, and 50 - Wish...

if im gonna be part of some evil deity church might as well say i gained instruction from a mentor in my backstory.

[Crake]

venger says you gain the instruction just from the act of summoning a devil.

Just because venger says it, that doesn't make it true. To instruction is "detailed information about how something should be done or operated." To gain instruction from a devil on how to become a tainted sorcerer is not something you can achieve by studying them. They need to instruct you, and that's not something a mindless peon can do.

[newguydude1]

Just because venger says it, that doesn't make it true. To instruction is "detailed information about how something should be done or operated." To gain instruction from a devil on how to become a tainted sorcerer is not something you can achieve by studying them. They need to instruct you, and that's not something a mindless peon can do.

its not studying them. its figuring out how to summon them.

if you figure out on your own how to build a car, and then actually build a car, you gained instruction on how to build cars by building your own car.

in this case building your own car gives you instruction on how to make a monster truck. not the same thing but similar enough that accomplishing one gives you the instruction to do the other.

[sreservoir]

if you figure out on your own how to build a car, and then actually build a car, you gained instruction on how to build cars by building your own car.

No, that doesn't seem quite right.

[Crake]

its not studying them. its figuring out how to summon them.

if you figure out on your own how to build a car, and then actually build a car, you gained instruction on how to build cars by building your own car.

in this case building your own car gives you instruction on how to make a monster truck. not the same thing but similar enough that accomplishing one gives you the instruction to do the other.

Except summoning a devil doesn't give you any instruction into becoming a tainted sorcerer. In your analogy, you're comparing building a car with building a house. The two are vastly different.

[newguydude1]

Except summoning a devil doesn't give you any instruction into becoming a tainted sorcerer. In your analogy, you're comparing building a car with building a house. The two are vastly different.

says who? evil outsiders are incarnations of taint. tainted sorcerer is embracing taint. perhaps summoning a creature of pure taint into the material plane is enough to know how to infuse your own body and soul with the very same taint.

if it was as different as a car and a house then it wouldnt be a prerequisite for tainted sorcerer in the first place.

[InvisibleBison]

says who? evil outsiders are incarnations of taint. tainted sorcerer is embracing taint. perhaps summoning a creature of pure taint into the material plane is enough to know how to infuse your own body and soul with the very same taint.

if it was as different as a car and a house then it wouldnt be a prerequisite for tainted sorcerer in the first place.

If merely summoning an evil outsider was sufficient to qualify for tainted sorcerer, wouldn't the requirement just say "Must have summoned an evil outsider"?

[Crake]

If merely summoning an evil outsider was sufficient to qualify for tainted sorcerer, wouldn't the requirement just say "Must have summoned an evil outsider"?

Yeah, it's pretty clear the requirement is that you need to be taught by them.

[newguydude1]

Yeah, it's pretty clear the requirement is that you need to be taught by them.


must have summoned a demon or devil to gain instruction.

it doesnt say "and must have received instructions from it"
it says summoning the devil results in you gaining instruction.

maybe changing the noun will help you understand sentence composition thingy iunno.
"you must have summoned a devil to gain my respect."
i summoned a devil. i got his respect. i dont need to do anything else to get his respect

"you must have summoned a devil to gain a connection to the infernal planes"
i summoned a devil. i got a connection to the infernal planes. i dont need to do anything else to get a connection to the infernal planes

"you must have summoned a devil to gain instruction"
i summoned a devil. i gained instruction. i dont need to do anything else to gain instruction.

[redking]

"you must have summoned a devil to gain instruction"
i summoned a devil. i gained instruction. i dont need to do anything else to gain instruction.

"Must have summoned a demon or devil to gain instruction" has very clear meaning in the English language. This isn't complicated at all. "Instruct" means "teach". You need to summon a devil that can teach you. A mindless lemure can't teach you anything.

[newguydude1]

"Must have summoned a demon or devil to gain instruction" has very clear meaning in the English language. This isn't complicated at all. "Instruct" means "teach". You need to summon a devil that can teach you. A mindless lemure can't teach you anything.

right. change the noun into a verb. that totally is what you should do.

instruction. detailed information telling how something should be done, operated, or assembled.
"always study the instructions supplied"

how do you gain detailed information telling how someone could become a tainted sorcerer? summon a devil.

[redking]

right. change the noun into a verb. that totally is what you should do.


how do you gain detailed information telling how someone could become a tainted sorcerer? summon a devil.

"teaching; education" is a definition of "instruction". The context is clear. {Scrubbed}There are plenty of vague sentences in D&D 3.5, and this isn't one of them.

[Lo'Tek]

It's semantic lawyering worthy of a deal with a devil to argue that summoning with the intend to gain instruction would be enough to fulfill the clause as written, even if the summoned creature is unable to provide the instruction.

However i find the rules intention quite obvious: the context establishes clearly that a teacher is needed, like a sorcerer who already practices blood magic taint sorcery. The alternative of summoning a devil to get forbidden magic / knowledge / power is a classic and stands as an example. The act of summoning is just a means to an end, the acquisition of knowledge from a knowledgeable source the actual point.

More so the primary purpose of the rule is to prevent it from being picked up arbitrarily on a level up without fluffing it up.

Interpreting that rule as such I would rather expand the list of possible teachers to include yugoloth as well as certain books written in blood, then allow a mindless lemure to formally fulfill it. You might be able to "summon a lemure" but you can not "summon a lemure to gain instruction".


(do) i need to grab fiendish summoning specialist and add a mane to sm ii's list?
No, a mane isn't much better, it is the same in red. Like the lemure they are tortured souls, closer to petitioners then to actual fiends and only qualify as devil/demon due to being native to the lower planes. They barely understand simple concepts and can't speak. These are not the kind of creature anyone would summon to unlock the hidden secrets of the multiverse. The lowest fiends are mere tools you would summon to slow down an enemy or to experiment on.

Something could be constructed based on the later: a mane/lemure might crave blood and by studying that interaction one could reveal how blood is linked to life essence and how life essence can be exchanged with the planes of hell for power, thereby unlocking the blood magic taint sorcery skill of substituting blood for material components. Ironically such research is not typical for low level chars and could be argued to also require additional skills, so other alternatives may be more agreeable with your DM.

IMHO, if you go for fiendish summoning for the purpose of arcane power, then go all the way: summon an imp, make it your familiar, and if you want real power, use it to get your hands on a ritual that grants an audience with an Amnizu (hells bureaucrats), a Falxugon (temptation of mortals) or Paeliryon (information brokers) or the equivalent tanar-ri or yugoloth depending on your alignment of choice.


i dont want to ... require dm negotiation.
then i would highly recommend pursuing a path that "just works" both in story and game mechanics, instead of one that seems forced and must be defended on semantics. Power flows through the path of least resistance.


i dont want to use fiendish summoning specialist
If that is the case, the whole "summoning a demon/devil" thing might be the wrong approach altogether and an "evil cult" backstory the far better choice for you.

[gogogome]

Yeah, it's pretty clear the requirement is that you need to be taught by them.

The text is pretty clear that all you need to do is summon a demon or devil in order to gain instruction. If you're claiming the author of Tainted Sorcerer failed grammar in school then you need to prove that.

[Crake]

The text is pretty clear that all you need to do is summon a demon or devil in order to gain instruction. If you're claiming the author of Tainted Sorcerer failed grammar in school then you need to prove that.

As has been noted elsewhere in the thread one of the definitions of "Instruction" is "Teaching; Education". It's not the author that's failing at grammar, it's people willfully ignoring context clues that are telling you which definition of instruction to use, again also noted earlier in the thread, the fact that the first part of the special requirement is that you be taught by an existing tainted sorcerer. When you put 2 and 2 together, the definition of instruction that you're meant to use is crystal clear, and anyone claiming otherwise is squinting way too hard to justify a cheesy entry method.

[gogogome]

As has been noted elsewhere in the thread one of the definitions of "Instruction" is "Teaching; Education". It's not the author that's failing at grammar, it's people willfully ignoring context clues that are telling you which definition of instruction to use, again also noted earlier in the thread, the fact that the first part of the special requirement is that you be taught by an existing tainted sorcerer. When you put 2 and 2 together, the definition of instruction that you're meant to use is crystal clear, and anyone claiming otherwise is squinting way too hard to justify a cheesy entry method.

First, how is this "cheesy" when the entry requirement is simply saying your wizard teacher was a tainted sorcerer?

Second, you are the one squinting real hard and not reading the sentence properly.

Upon summoning a demon or devil you gain instruction. This is clear cut. This is how the English language works.
It does not say you must receive instruction. It says you gain it. Summoning a devil gives you instruction.
The text does not say "must have summoned a demon or devil and received instruction" which is required for your interpretation to work.

Post #18 fully explains what "to gain" means. It is not interchangeable with "received".

In one of those examples
"you must have summoned a devil and received respect." means something very different than "you must have summoned a devil to gain respect."
The first example has a 2nd additional prerequisite. The second example does not. It only has one prerequisite: summoning of the devil. If this is still confusing to you then I cannot help you without going into a lecture about grammar, which I am not willing to do at this time.

[newguydude1]

First, how is this "cheesy" when the entry requirement is simply saying your wizard teacher was a tainted sorcerer?

Second, you are the one squinting real hard and not reading the sentence properly.

Upon summoning a demon or devil you gain instruction. This is clear cut. This is how the English language works.
It does not say you must receive instruction. It says you gain it. Summoning a devil gives you instruction.
The text does not say "must have summoned a demon or devil and received instruction" which is required for your interpretation to work.

Post #18 fully explains what "to gain" means. It is not interchangeable with "received".

In one of those examples
"you must have summoned a devil and received respect." means something very different than "you must have summoned a devil to gain respect."
The first example has a 2nd additional prerequisite. The second example does not. It only has one prerequisite: summoning of the devil. If this is still confusing to you then I cannot help you without going into a lecture about grammar, which I am not willing to do at this time.

you dont have to use receive

"must have summoned a demon or devil and gained instruction"
is how crake is interpreting it. but like you said and gained and to gain are completely different definitions.