[Guide] A Wizard's Guide to Fighting

[aadu]

I've been thinking a lot about the new Bladesinger and how to run it effectively in melee.

Well here's a 36 page guide for it (https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vQ0hmoGnHxfxvkpON2ChI0DE93DVKOtF5J4XaXYCQHhTWPTFT 2lz2ciFb6QcvZTclOPls1XFJbu0c5o/pub)

Here's a URL if you want to comment on it. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1663YIl2YO89nPtJ8B5k_b-vBs_1HHEjvzxfu5aWt3Sg/edit?usp=sharing)

Become the ultimate spell blade without giving up any spell progression.

I've never written a DnD guide before but I've loved reading some of the guides posted here so I figured I'd contribute as well.

[Ir0ns0ul]

I wasn’t able to comment in the link you provided, but one quick thing that I noticed after playing a melee dedicated Bladesinger was that Mirror Image wasn’t really so effective in contrast with a consistent AC. My images were taking hits that my big AC would simply ignore, especially after Shield.

I know that there is the Concentration conflict, specially against Shadow Blade, but man... when I casted PFE&G or Blur, honestly, I was nearly untouchable... AC 20 (DEX 18, INT 16) + being attacked at disadvantage felt so broken that I was kind of not using those spells all the time to not trivialize some encounters.

In the end of the day, when I had an easy fight, I casted Shadow Blade. During tough / boss fights, I was casting PFE&G/Blur all the time. When my DM got tired of my nimble elvish spellblade dodging all AC attacks, he tried to put some fiends to give some control pressure on us, but he forgot that PFE&G prevents Charm, Frighten and possession. My Paladin buddy got jealous.

Unfortunately the table ended up earlier due schedule issues, and I wasn’t able to play during level 5+ in order to test Haste or upcasted Shadow Blade, but from levels 2-4, PFE&G/Blur were my bread & butter.

[aadu]

I wasn’t able to comment in the link you provided, but one quick thing that I noticed after playing a melee dedicated Bladesinger was that Mirror Image wasn’t really so effective in contrast with a consistent AC. My images were taking hits that my big AC would simply ignore, especially after Shield.

I know that there is the Concentration conflict, specially against Shadow Blade, but man... when I casted PFE&G or Blur, honestly, I was nearly untouchable... AC 20 (DEX 18, INT 16) + being attacked at disadvantage felt so broken that I was kind of not using those spells all the time to not trivialize some encounters.

In the end of the day, when I had an easy fight, I casted Shadow Blade. During tough / boss fights, I was casting PFE&G/Blur all the time. When my DM got tired of my nimble elvish spellblade dodging all AC attacks, he tried to put some fiends to give some control pressure on us, but he forgot that PFE&G prevents Charm, Frighten and possession. My Paladin buddy got jealous.

Unfortunately the table ended up earlier due schedule issues, and I wasn’t able to play during level 5+ in order to test Haste or upcasted Shadow Blade, but from levels 2-4, PFE&G/Blur were my bread & butter.

Good point, I think it's more of a hassle to get the mirror image running at the start of combat. Its definitely a consistent spelll.

[Bilbron]

I've been thinking a lot about the new Bladesinger and how to run it effectively in melee.

Well here's a 36 page guide for it (https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vQ0hmoGnHxfxvkpON2ChI0DE93DVKOtF5J4XaXYCQHhTWPTFT 2lz2ciFb6QcvZTclOPls1XFJbu0c5o/pub)

Here's a URL if you want to comment on it. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1663YIl2YO89nPtJ8B5k_b-vBs_1HHEjvzxfu5aWt3Sg/edit?usp=sharing)

Become the ultimate spell blade without giving up any spell progression.

I've never written a DnD guide before but I've loved reading some of the guides posted here so I figured I'd contribute as well.
Just opened it and man, that's a lot of work! I look forward to giving this a look... too bad I wasn't able to take a gander at it before I finished my Bladesinger video series, as I can see already that you're offering a nuanced take.

[Ir0ns0ul]

Good point, I think it's more of a hassle to get the mirror image running at the start of combat. Its definitely a consistent spelll.

I agree. I mean, it’s another defensive stage gate that the enemies must surpass to hit you. But both PFE&G and Blur are often underrated spells that went really well with my Bladesinger — at least before Tasha’s, hehe.

[aadu]

Just opened it and man, that's a lot of work! I look forward to giving this a look... too bad I wasn't able to take a gander at it before I finished my Bladesinger video series, as I can see already that you're offering a nuanced take.

Hey thanks! I listened to your Bladesinger guide on a drive I had the other day. Was great! Thanks for taking a look.

[MaxWilson]

I have to say, the guide lost me as soon as I saw that Spirit Shroud got rated Gold ("a rare rating that denotes something that is so good that you must take it, or you can't call yourself optimized.") at level 5, with only this text as justification:


Notes on Choices
Here comes the big gun. Spirit Shroud from TCE boosts this damage by a lot. Two weapon fighting with this enabled is our best damage tool at this level. It gets a lot better next level but its still better than a level 3 shadow blade. Spirit Shroud also lets us take advantage of +1 weapons which we’ll be getting at this level.

If you’re fighting in lots of darkness shadowblade might be better due to the advantage it gives you.

Notes on Combat
Get spirit shroud up and get in there, proccing it with both shortswords as often as possible. +1 Rapier with Booming Blade is a solid option as well.


Just, no. +2d8 potential damage per turn (and some slowdown and healing prevention), starting on round 2 unless pre-cast, is not "something so good you must take it or you cannot call yourself optimized." Even when it "gets a lot better next level" and goes up to 3d8 damage, it's still not remotely mandatory, and it competes with other uses of concentration.

[aadu]

I have to say, the guide lost me as soon as I saw that Spirit Shroud got rated Gold ("a rare rating that denotes something that is so good that you must take it, or you can't call yourself optimized.") at level 5, with only this text as justification:


Notes on Choices
Here comes the big gun. Spirit Shroud from TCE boosts this damage by a lot. Two weapon fighting with this enabled is our best damage tool at this level. It gets a lot better next level but its still better than a level 3 shadow blade. Spirit Shroud also lets us take advantage of +1 weapons which we’ll be getting at this level.

If you’re fighting in lots of darkness shadowblade might be better due to the advantage it gives you.

Notes on Combat
Get spirit shroud up and get in there, proccing it with both shortswords as often as possible. +1 Rapier with Booming Blade is a solid option as well.


Just, no. +2d8 potential damage per turn (and some slowdown and healing prevention), starting on round 2 unless pre-cast, is not "something so good you must take it or you cannot call yourself optimized." Even when it "gets a lot better next level" and goes up to 3d8 damage, it's still not remotely mandatory, and it competes with other uses of concentration.

I strongly disagree. It is the consistently highest damage use of your spell slots for much of the game.

Its not as strong defensively but you can get it running in round one (BA casting) and its a huge damage buff.

As I mentioned in the guide: if you don't have access to magic weapons or you are fighting in dim light or darkness then it loses to shadow blade.

Here's my damage calc spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1K3Ly2JzJrXIFf6CAks6bjCS-hESVsVCroys2hS_c1Ic/edit?usp=sharing

I would call it gold, if you don't take it you're leaving damage on the table and its a big reason why this BS build was able to beat the EK build on the DPR front for a few levels.

[MaxWilson]

I strongly disagree. It is the consistently highest damage use of your spell slots for much of the game.

(A) Its not as strong defensively but you can get it running in round one (BA casting) and its a huge damage buff.

As I mentioned in the guide: if you don't have access to magic weapons or you are fighting in dim light or darkness then it loses to shadow blade.

Here's my damage calc spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1K3Ly2JzJrXIFf6CAks6bjCS-hESVsVCroys2hS_c1Ic/edit?usp=sharing

I would call it gold, if you don't take it you're leaving damage on the table and its a big reason why this BS build was able to beat the EK build on the DPR front for a few levels.

(A) If you spend your bonus action on round 1 activating Spirit Shroud instead of Blade Song, then when round 2 arrives you are still just a squishy little wizard without even Con save proficiency, and if you used round #1 to do anything except hide out of range of the monsters you are likely to lose that Spirit Shroud again.

I could sort of see Spirit Shroud being attractive at higher levels once you have plenty of 5th+ level spell slots, but at level 5? Come on. One well-placed Fireball at the right time is going to do more damage than a whole day's worth of Spirit Shrouding in melee, and isn't that what gishing is all about, casting appropriate spells at the appropriate time? Even something like first-level Fog Cloud is likely to add about the same amount of damage as Spirit Shroud III at level 5, due to the way Booming Blade damage works: it's +2d8 either way. Greater Invisibility will add even more, plus gives you advantage and disadvantage to your enemies, and of course something like Summon Greater Demon can more than double your damage output per round for as long as the demon remains alive and pointed at your enemies. Once you get 5th level slots at level 9, Spirit Shroud starts giving you 4d8 or 6d8 per round and starts to be mildly useful, and if you gave it a gold rating then I might think you were overhyping it but you'd still have a point. But at level 5?! Spirit Shroud is anything but gold at that point.

Anyway, I didn't come here to argue with you, but want you to know that the way the guide overhypes Spirit Shroud is problematic for its credibility. You might want to consider toning it down to some color of blue or blue.

[aadu]

(A) If you spend your bonus action on round 1 activating Spirit Shroud instead of Blade Song, then when round 2 arrives you are still just a squishy little wizard without even Con save proficiency, and if you used round #1 to do anything except hide out of range of the monsters you are likely to lose that Spirit Shroud again.

I could sort of see Spirit Shroud being attractive at higher levels once you have plenty of 5th+ level spell slots, but at level 5? Come on. One well-placed Fireball at the right time is going to do more damage than a whole day's worth of Spirit Shrouding in melee, and isn't that what gishing is all about, casting appropriate spells at the appropriate time? Even something like first-level Fog Cloud is likely to add about the same amount of damage as Spirit Shroud III at level 5, due to the way Booming Blade damage works: it's +2d8 either way. Greater Invisibility will add even more, plus gives you advantage and disadvantage to your enemies, and of course something like Summon Greater Demon can more than double your damage output per round for as long as the demon remains alive and pointed at your enemies. Once you get 5th level slots at level 9, Spirit Shroud starts giving you 4d8 or 6d8 per round and starts to be mildly useful, and if you gave it a gold rating then I might think you were overhyping it but you'd still have a point. But at level 5?! Spirit Shroud is anything but gold at that point.

Anyway, I didn't come here to argue with you, but want you to know that the way the guide overhypes Spirit Shroud is problematic for its credibility. You might want to consider toning it down to some color of blue or blue.

A couple things here, I totally agree that combat effectiveness wise you can do a lot better as a wizard by casting fireball and I make the point in the guide at level 5 that a rapier booming blade is solid as well. This build choosing very definitively not to take spells like fireball though.

I might see "gishing" differently than you but this build is very focused on how to buff myself as a melee combatant.

The gold rating for spirit shroud comes from my excitement for the new spell and desire to make sure that readers realize how good it is as well as its unparalleled consistency to round out the DPR measurements for this build.

There's often times better options with lower use, higher level slots but I've found that, without situational assumptions, like having an extra round to prepare for combat, or fighting in dim light, spirit shroud is the best choice at the majority of levels.

This is also assuming you're playing at a table that has access to magic items. If not, then it gets a lot worse.

I think you might also be bothered by the rating at 5th level. I agree with you that if you're playing a 5th level one-shot, spirit shroud is probably just blue. It doesn't get you much extra damage right at level 5, but for this build overall, I'll keep it at gold.

Now that thinking about level 5 more in particular I might even delay the spirit shroud pickup a level or 2, I was very focused on trying to keep up with EK's extra attack right at level 5, which is a bit of a lost cause.

[MaxWilson]

I think you might also be bothered by the rating at 5th level. I agree with you that if you're playing a 5th level one-shot, spirit shroud is probably just blue. It doesn't get you much extra damage right at level 5, but for this build overall, I'll keep it at gold.

Now that thinking about level 5 more in particular I might even delay the spirit shroud pickup a level or 2, I was very focused on trying to keep up with EK's extra attack right at level 5, which is a bit of a lost cause.

You have little reason to be casting Spirit Shroud until level 9ish at the earliest. At level 5, it's too expensive for too little value; at level 7, it's less expensive but Greater Invisibility is better, and even at level 9ish where Spirit Shroud starts offering some real value, a round 1 (Blade Song + Pyrotechnics) followed by round 2 (Summon Greater Demon: Chasme) is competitive or better with a round 1 (Spirit Shroud V + attack) followed by round 2 (Blade Song + attack). The advantage to round 1 Spirit Shroud V is that your round 1 DPR is larger (you can attack instead of just making opportunity attacks), and that matters especially in easy fight, but in dangerous fights the Chasme's enormous damage + blindsight + heavy obscurement is hard to beat, particularly if you're an Alert or Fighting Style: Blindsight Bladesinger yourself. However, if you do a round 1 Spirit Shroud you're very squishy and have only +2ish to concentration saves, and 5th level spell slots are expensive so squishy is bad.

[Dork_Forge]

You have little reason to be casting Spirit Shroud until level 9ish at the earliest. At level 5, it's too expensive for too little value; at level 7, it's less expensive but Greater Invisibility is better, and even at level 9ish where Spirit Shroud starts offering some real value, a round 1 (Blade Song + Pyrotechnics) followed by round 2 (Summon Greater Demon: Chasme) is competitive or better with a round 1 (Spirit Shroud V + attack) followed by round 2 (Blade Song + attack). The advantage to round 1 Spirit Shroud V is that your round 1 DPR is larger (you can attack instead of just making opportunity attacks), and that matters especially in easy fight, but in dangerous fights the Chasme's enormous damage + blindsight + heavy obscurement is hard to beat, particularly if you're an Alert or Fighting Style: Blindsight Bladesinger yourself. However, if you do a round 1 Spirit Shroud you're very squishy and have only +2ish to concentration saves, and 5th level spell slots are expensive so squishy is bad.

I think you are coming from a fundamentally different place, the purpose seems to be to play the Bladesinger as a Gish, not a Wizard that can do melee if they want to (the conventional way and I share the OP's sentiments in the introduction, that bothers me and isn't the point of the subclass).

Summoning a demon isn't making you a better melee participant, it's minionmancy.

Personally I would try and break dependence on spells like this since the bonus action competition makes play frustrating unless combats are longer, but since the Tasha's version has few Bladesong uses that may not be a problem anymore.

You seem to have a concern that not Bladesinging on round 1 leaves you squishy and liable to just lose concentration on Spirit Shroud, you think favourably of Greater Invisibility I assume because it imposes disadvantage against most creatures. This can be remedied fairly easily, just use a whip.

The reach property means that against a lot (most?) creatures you can hit and run since you were never inside their reach to begin with and Spirit Shroud presumably works within 10ft to allow it to be reach compatible. The d4 isn't really an issue outside of die fright, the focus should be on additional dice and static bumps where possible anyway since primary weapon die size matters so little. The only downside to the whip really is that it isn't natively TWF friendly, so grabbing DW would be in order and tbh recommended anyway. The +1 AC goes towards mitigating the combats you won't have Bladesong in and down the line you can grab the style via the feat (or a dip if not sticking single class) to bump round by round damage fairly significantly.

[Vegan Squirrel]

Quick question: why are you assuming +1 weapons by 5th level? Is this an AL equipment thing? 5th level just feels pretty early to assume magic weapons, to me.

[MaxWilson]

You seem to have a concern that not Bladesinging on round 1 leaves you squishy and liable to just lose concentration on Spirit Shroud, you think favourably of Greater Invisibility I assume because it imposes disadvantage against most creatures. This can be remedied fairly easily, just use a whip.

The reach property means that against a lot (most?) creatures you can hit and run since you were never inside their reach to begin with and Spirit Shroud presumably works within 10ft to allow it to be reach compatible. The d4 isn't really an issue outside of die fright, the focus should be on additional dice and static bumps where possible anyway since primary weapon die size matters so little. The only downside to the whip really is that it isn't natively TWF friendly, so grabbing DW would be in order and tbh recommended anyway. The +1 AC goes towards mitigating the combats you won't have Bladesong in and down the line you can grab the style via the feat (or a dip if not sticking single class) to bump round by round damage fairly significantly.

If you're not Bladesinging or investing in movement via feats/spells, then using a whip doesn't really help. Unless monsters were kind enough to conveniently end their turns exactly 10' away from you, you'll have to burn some movement getting closer to them in order to hit them with your whip, which means that's movement you won't be able to burn getting out of their reach afterwards. A monster which is 15' away from you when you start your turn will be 35' away from you when you end your turn (advance 5' to 10', attack, retreat 25'), which means it can hit you back. Yes, yes, special circumstances can change this (allies blocking the monsters' path, etc.), but still... you're slow-ish for a melee kiter and you're squishy even with Shield. And your damage is mediocre because you're not getting any Booming Blade/Greenflame Blade riders from 10' away, which means that the d4+3ish (whip) +d8 (Spirit Shroud) damage from your whip is all you're getting per attack. Why was doing this ~12ish HP of damage on round 1 so urgent that you couldn't Bladesong + some other spell like Hypnotic Pattern/Fear/Greater Invisibility instead?

So anyway, with no Bladesong and a whip, instead of being able to kite a lot/most creatures, you wind up only being able to kite ones with under 30' move. (You can indeed help yourself a bit by Longstridering but it doesn't help with squishiness--and is kiting really in the spirit of gishing anyway? That's more like a regular mage tactic.)

If you really are spending your bonus action round 1 on something other than Bladesong, you have no reason not to be wearing medium/heavy armor and wielding a shield. (Artificer 1/Bladesinger X is justifiable, or just playing a Tortle.) You'll be less MAD and less squishy. In practical terms, you have no reason to be a Bladesinger at all unless you are leveraging that Extra Attack somehow for grappling/proning or you are desperate for that extra d8+3ish (7.5) damage on top of your cantrip.

TL;DR I can't take the idea of round 2 Bladesong seriously. You might as well not even be a Bladesinger at that point, just an armored wizard.

[Hael]

Honestly, most DMs are going to houserule that you can cast a ba spell as an action.
That’s one of those silly technicalities that was likely never intended by WoTC.

Having said that, I also don’t think shroud is super worth for low lvl, simply bc of the spell slot opportunity cost.

But... Bladesingers are designed to Gish. If you play them as summoners, controllers or fireball artists, you might be playing them optimally (bc yes spells are better than melee), but then you should have optimally been a different subclass in the first place. Moreover, it’s precisely tier 2 where bladesingers most optimally Gish (they now have enough bladesongs to enter melee and their martial utility is still relatively competitive with spells and hasn’t yet been completely outclassed).

[Mr Adventurer]

Honestly, most DMs are going to houserule that you can cast a ba spell as an action.

I mean, you say that, but what are the other implications of changing the Bonus Action rules, apart from making life easier for spellcasters? Can you set them out? Because without knowing them, I'm going to default to my position of "spellcasters don't need any more bones thrown to them, they are already the most powerful".

[MaxWilson]

But... Bladesingers are designed to Gish. If you play them as summoners, controllers or fireball artists, you might be playing them optimally (bc yes spells are better than melee), but then you should have optimally been a different subclass in the first place. Moreover, it’s precisely tier 2 where bladesingers most optimally Gish (they now have enough bladesongs to enter melee and their martial utility is still relatively competitive with spells and hasn’t yet been completely outclassed).

The difference between a fighter and a gish lies precisely in their ability to place a well-timed Fireball or summoned demon at the point of most impact. The classic AD&D fighter/mage may not Fireball as often as a pure mage, nor fight as well as a pure Fighter, but unlike a pure Fighter he is unfazed when outnumbered by a dozen orcs precisely because he can chuck a Fireball or summon a demon to gain the upper hand, and then finish off the bad guys with his sword. And unlike a pure mage, he doesn't need to chuck a Fireball when there are only a couple of orcs--he's already got the upper hand in that case.

If you're not going to take advantage of spells you should have just been a Fighter in the first place, not a Bladesinger.

[shipiaozi]

Caster-based gish simply don't work in 5e, all these caster subclass with extra attacks are "caster with better cantrip", not a viable physic DPS.
Spirit Shroud is a very weak spell, as other self-buff spells like Tasha’s otherworldly guise, a waste of concentration and spell slots.

[Hael]

I mean, you say that, but what are the other implications of changing the Bonus Action rules, apart from making life easier for spellcasters? Can you set them out? Because without knowing them, I'm going to default to my position of "spellcasters don't need any more bones thrown to them, they are already the most powerful".

It's not just bones to spellcasters, its just a general notion that actions are something that takes most of your time, and bonus actions are something that can be done quickly as an extra. But if you can do something quickly, then you can also take your time doing it. So eg in our group, a barbarian can Rage as an action. It just streamlines action economy, wastes less time, is more logical, and doesn't really have any glaring balance problems. I mean the whole point of being able to cast spells as a bonus action is as an action economy *buff* not viceversa.

Anyway, i'm aware that Crawford has ruled against this, but most people think this is silly.

[Hael]

he classic AD&D fighter/mage may not Fireball as often as a pure mage, nor fight as well as a pure Fighter, but unlike a pure Fighter he is unfazed when outnumbered by a dozen orcs precisely because he can chuck a Fireball or summon a demon to gain the upper hand, and then finish off the bad guys with his sword.
If you're not going to take advantage of spells you should have just been a Fighter in the first place, not a Bladesinger.

Yes so indeed, thats very much the Add conceptualization of a Gish. Believe me, I played many F/M/T and Clams/Pams. There is also the more recent 3.5/Pathfinder points of view, where you have gishes that are more martial than martial. Where you can death stack them with buffs, send them into melee, and through a use of resources can maintain and sometimes improve on martial territory for at least a little while.

And despite what was said above, there are indeed gishes (eg the bladesinger) but also a few others as well as multiclasses, that can do that sort of thing for at least a few levels as well. As the guide nicely shows, dpr and defensive numbers can be quite competitive with fighter classes.

[Mr Adventurer]

It's not just bones to spellcasters, its just a general notion that actions are something that takes most of your time, and bonus actions are something that can be done quickly as an extra. But if you can do something quickly, then you can also take your time doing it.

I understand the "common sense" rationale, that much is obvious. I'm looking for the mechanical implications. But thanks anyway.


So eg in our group, a barbarian can Rage as an action. It just streamlines action economy, wastes less time, is more logical, and doesn't really have any glaring balance problems.

That's interesting. What other bonus actions have you seen doubled up? Have Clerics been making two attacks with their Spiritual Weapon for example?


I mean the whole point of being able to cast spells as a bonus action is as an action economy *buff* not viceversa.

I don't see how this is relevant. It's patently clear that being able to cast a spell as both a bonus action and as an action is an improvement in comparison to only being able to do it one of those ways.


Anyway, i'm aware that Crawford has ruled against this, but most people think this is silly.

... you've spoken to them?

[Hael]

That's interesting. What other bonus actions have you seen doubled up? Have Clerics been making two attacks with their Spiritual Weapon for example?


I don't want to derail this thread any further, but the situation comes up so rarely that I don't believe we've ever seen that scenario. Double spiritual weapon is so marginal a difference compared to sw + toll the dead (or attack action) that its never come up. It would be probably a feature more than a bug for Mordenkainens sword (which is godawful), but maybe a bit op for the new Tasha 9th lvl spell. You could simply houserule double the same action away anyway (which would make sense for things like doubling of ba pet actions)

Where it does come up, is in certain relatively esoteric multiclassing builds, which have clashy bonus action features. So eg a bladesinger and a barbarian. Since almost none of those builds are ever what you would call OP, its always simply made sense to houserule the problem away.

[Bobthewizard]

Nice job. I do think you need to make your DPR calculations based on 6 combats per day. Maybe this could be done as an additional analysis, because nova is important too, but so is sustainability. Your guide seems to always assume bladesong is up and you can use your highest level spells. The bladesinger's offense and defense both suffer during combats they can't use those resources while the EK can mostly maintain its higher levels throughout the day. In tough campaigns, those blade singer resources won't be available for every fight.

I like the analysis though. It's interesting and well written.

[Gignere]

I don't want to derail this thread any further, but the situation comes up so rarely that I don't believe we've ever seen that scenario. Double spiritual weapon is so marginal a difference compared to sw + toll the dead (or attack action) that its never come up. It would be probably a feature more than a bug for Mordenkainens sword (which is godawful), but maybe a bit op for the new Tasha 9th lvl spell. You could simply houserule double the same action away anyway (which would make sense for things like doubling of ba pet actions)

Where it does come up, is in certain relatively esoteric multiclassing builds, which have clashy bonus action features. So eg a bladesinger and a barbarian. Since almost none of those builds are ever what you would call OP, its always simply made sense to houserule the problem away.

I think an AT / BS which is a top notch multiclass would be made even stronger with your house rules. Biggest limitations to the rogue / BS is the BA clog and your house rule will nearly eliminate it.

[aadu]

Nice job. I do think you need to make your DPR calculations based on 6 combats per day. Maybe this could be done as an additional analysis, because nova is important too, but so is sustainability. Your guide seems to always assume bladesong is up and you can use your highest level spells. The bladesinger's offense and defense both suffer during combats they can't use those resources while the EK can mostly maintain its higher levels throughout the day. In tough campaigns, those blade singer resources won't be available for every fight.

I like the analysis though. It's interesting and well written.

Thanks! Yeah, I wrote it for myself first and my my tables usually have 3-4 combats with 1-2 SR's a day. I tried to be fair about the different abilities. I've subtracted the bonus action attack damage for 30% of attacks and the EK got a 10% damage boost per Action Surge they have access too. Though its still viable in grittier campaigns Bladesinger does get worse with longer days.

[Gignere]

Thanks! Yeah, I wrote it for myself first and my my tables usually have 3-4 combats with 1-2 SR's a day. I tried to be fair about the different abilities. I've subtracted the bonus action attack damage for 30% of attacks and the EK got a 10% damage boost per Action Surge they have access too. Though its still viable in grittier campaigns Bladesinger does get worse with longer days.

Nah you don’t have 6 combats a day, when the DMG mentions 6-8 encounters a day 2-4 of those are combat and 2-4 are exploratory and/or social encounters. I mean yeah if you have a bunch of murder hobos the social encounters can also turn into combat encounters but it is not usual to have 6-8 of all combat encounters.

[Unoriginal]

Thanks! Yeah, I wrote it for myself first and my my tables usually have 3-4 combats with 1-2 SR's a day. I tried to be fair about the different abilities. I've subtracted the bonus action attack damage for 30% of attacks and the EK got a 10% damage boost per Action Surge they have access too. Though its still viable in grittier campaigns Bladesinger does get worse with longer days.


Nah you don’t have 6 combats a day, when the DMG mentions 6-8 encounters a day 2-4 of those are combat and 2-4 are exploratory and/or social encounters. I mean yeah if you have a bunch of murder hobos the social encounters can also turn into combat encounters but it is not usual to have 6-8 of all combat encounters.

The DMG never mention 6-8 encounters to mean "you will/should have 6-8 encounters a day", they just say "in our experience a party will run out of ressources after 6-8 Medium encounters".

[Bilbron]

Honestly, most DMs are going to houserule that you can cast a ba spell as an action.
That’s one of those silly technicalities that was likely never intended by WoTC.

Having said that, I also don’t think shroud is super worth for low lvl, simply bc of the spell slot opportunity cost.

But... Bladesingers are designed to Gish. If you play them as summoners, controllers or fireball artists, you might be playing them optimally (bc yes spells are better than melee), but then you should have optimally been a different subclass in the first place. Moreover, it’s precisely tier 2 where bladesingers most optimally Gish (they now have enough bladesongs to enter melee and their martial utility is still relatively competitive with spells and hasn’t yet been completely outclassed).
Do they? I'm surprised by that... seems to me that this would break the action economy and a powergamer would blow that hole wide open in a way that I'd think few DMs appreciate.

I think Summoning is quite thematically compatible with Bladesinger, it's now a two-person "dance" and Summoning provides flanking for all of those BS obsessed with attacks at advantage. I'm definitely into playing up the theme but it's also hard to make severely suboptimal choices pursuing it.

[Meichrob7]

I’ve said it once and I’ll say it a thousand times. Casting animate objects on a bunch of swords and having them fly around behind you and attack your target will always be the dream play style for bladesinging wizards.

It might not be mathematically the absolute best, but it’s certainly decent and is thematically one of the coolest things you can do in the whole game.

[MaxWilson]

Yes so indeed, thats very much the Add conceptualization of a Gish. Believe me, I played many F/M/T and Clams/Pams. There is also the more recent 3.5/Pathfinder points of view, where you have gishes that are more martial than martial. Where you can death stack them with buffs, send them into melee, and through a use of resources can maintain and sometimes improve on martial territory for at least a little while.

And despite what was said above, there are indeed gishes (eg the bladesinger) but also a few others as well as multiclasses, that can do that sort of thing for at least a few levels as well. As the guide nicely shows, dpr and defensive numbers can be quite competitive with fighter classes.

The guide deliberately assumes a fighter who isn't damage-optimized, using longsword + shield and taking ASIs instead of feats, and then uses as a baseline for comparison against a primarily damage-optimized Bladesinger. (The assumption that Action Surge is only a 10% DPR boost is questionable BTW.) Saying that the Bladesinger can keep up with "a fighter" isn't the same thing as showing that Bladesingers in general can keep up with Fighters in general. Compare that Spirit Shroud V-VII damage to e.g. a Sharpshooter Crossbow Expert Elven Accuracy Battlemaster using Tripping Attack and/or Precision Attack and Action Surging only against prone targets for tri-vantage for a more accurate best-DPR vs. best-DPR scenario.


I’ve said it once and I’ll say it a thousand times. Casting animate objects on a bunch of swords and having them fly around behind you and attack your target will always be the dream play style for bladesinging wizards.

It might not be mathematically the absolute best, but it’s certainly decent and is thematically one of the coolest things you can do in the whole game.

Yeah, that is pretty cool.

It's tough to spread the swords out so that they don't start in an illegal position (too many Tiny creatures in the same 5' volume) but if your DM is willing to overlook that, yes, THAT's how you compete with a Battlemaster. It is a bit awkward that you can't command them to attack on the same round you activate Bladesong but oh well, at least they can look cool on round 1, as well as soaking attacks and making opportunity attacks.

[Dork_Forge]

If you're not Bladesinging or investing in movement via feats/spells, then using a whip doesn't really help. Unless monsters were kind enough to conveniently end their turns exactly 10' away from you, you'll have to burn some movement getting closer to them in order to hit them with your whip, which means that's movement you won't be able to burn getting out of their reach afterwards. A monster which is 15' away from you when you start your turn will be 35' away from you when you end your turn (advance 5' to 10', attack, retreat 25'), which means it can hit you back. Yes, yes, special circumstances can change this (allies blocking the monsters' path, etc.), but still... you're slow-ish for a melee kiter and you're squishy even with Shield. And your damage is mediocre because you're not getting any Booming Blade/Greenflame Blade riders from 10' away, which means that the d4+3ish (whip) +d8 (Spirit Shroud) damage from your whip is all you're getting per attack. Why was doing this ~12ish HP of damage on round 1 so urgent that you couldn't Bladesong + some other spell like Hypnotic Pattern/Fear/Greater Invisibility instead?

So anyway, with no Bladesong and a whip, instead of being able to kite a lot/most creatures, you wind up only being able to kite ones with under 30' move. (You can indeed help yourself a bit by Longstridering but it doesn't help with squishiness--and is kiting really in the spirit of gishing anyway? That's more like a regular mage tactic.)

If you really are spending your bonus action round 1 on something other than Bladesong, you have no reason not to be wearing medium/heavy armor and wielding a shield. (Artificer 1/Bladesinger X is justifiable, or just playing a Tortle.) You'll be less MAD and less squishy. In practical terms, you have no reason to be a Bladesinger at all unless you are leveraging that Extra Attack somehow for grappling/proning or you are desperate for that extra d8+3ish (7.5) damage on top of your cantrip.

TL;DR I can't take the idea of round 2 Bladesong seriously. You might as well not even be a Bladesinger at that point, just an armored wizard.

On speed in melee for skirmishing: If you were to play a Bladesinger going for this style, why wouldn't you invest in your speed? You already proposed Longstrider which seems like a very capable patch, however you hardly need it. Races give you so many options for speed that this doesn't seem an issue at all though:

-There's two options now to start the game with a feat for grabbing Mobile
-There's four races that provide stock speed of 35'
-There's one race that gives a 40' stock speed
-There's two races that give bonus action speed bumps
-There's two races that hace 'other' speed features

Is skirmishing (you refer to it as kiting) no in the spirit of Gishing? I'd say that it in no way conflicts with it, casting actually enhances that style of play. To me Gishing is playing a melee role where you support that playstyle with magic, so casting Hypnotic Pattern etc. is directly against gishing to me if it is anything but opportunistic. If at any point your go to looks like a normal Wizard's go to, then you're probably playing more like a Wizard than a gish.

On Armor and Bladesong etc. Bladesong is incredibly limited now in Tiers 1 and 2, you can't assume that you'll be able to do it unless you'll be able to do it unless the standard for your table is a max of 2/3 combats per long rest. Having plans to not Bladesing or that don't involve doing it on round one is a good plan if anything, not abandoning being a Bladesinger. If you wear medium armor and a shield then you just loose the choice of Bladesinging if you had any available and were trying to save them.

Being a Tortle is a solid answer to the AC issue, I'm a fan of that race.

I'm curious how 2nd turn Bladesong turns into may as well not be a Bladesinger though, it's like you're equating doing something else first as may as well not do it at all.

[Thunderous Mojo]

The difference between a fighter and a gish lies precisely in their ability to place a well-timed Fireball or summoned demon at the point of most impact. The classic AD&D fighter/mage may not Fireball as often as a pure mage, nor fight as well as a pure Fighter, but unlike a pure Fighter he is unfazed when outnumbered by a dozen orcs precisely because he can chuck a Fireball or summon a demon to gain the upper hand, and then finish off the bad guys with his sword. And unlike a pure mage, he doesn't need to chuck a Fireball when there are only a couple of orcs--he's already got the upper hand in that case.


A minor AD&D quibble, the Fighter in this scenario is going to be 6th level.
The Fighter/ Magic - User is going be a F4/MU 5 split.

A 6th level Fighter could have Field Plate, and be double specialized in the short sword, or dagger. If your table used weapon speed factor, either weapon allowed you to get 1 to 2 attacks before your opponent could even attack.

If the Orcs were using pole arms, then it becomes 2 attacks before the Orcs can act, one attack simultaneous to the Orcs attacking, and this is before the two attacks per round the fighter gets for their level, (+1 attack if two dual wielding).

Each attack is at +3/+3 due to double weapon specialization, and if the fighter has exceptional Str....they have a +7 to hit, +10 damage before magic items are considered.

A Fireball took 3 segments to cast...so unless we are talking a tribe of Orcs, that 6th level fighter, (if they beat the Fighter/MU in initiative), might kill a warband in one turn.

My memory is hazy but I think Fighter 4/ Magic-User 5 was the height of that particular multi-class combo.

A single class Magic -User was 6th level. By the time the Fighter-Mage reaches 6th level as a Magic-User, the straight class Magic -User is 7th level, at least, and possibly 8th level.

The spell casting disparity becomes noticeable, (4th level spells ),and snowballs from there due to the way the XP charts worked.

The Fighter/Mage stops keeping up with the Magic-User.

(Going from memory here...so some details might be off)

[MaxWilson]

A minor AD&D quibble, the Fighter in this scenario is going to be 6th level.
The Fighter/ Magic - User is going be a F4/MU 5 split.

A 6th level Fighter could have Field Plate, and be double specialized in the short sword, or dagger. If your table used weapon speed factor, either weapon allowed you to get 1 to 2 attacks before your opponent could even attack.

If the Orcs were using pole arms, then it becomes 2 attacks before the Orcs can act, one attack simultaneous to the Orcs attacking, and this is before the two attacks per round the fighter gets for their level, (+1 attack if two dual wielding).

Each attack is at +3/+3 due to double weapon specialization, and if the fighter has exceptional Str....they have a +7 to hit, +10 damage before magic items are considered.

A Fireball took 3 segments to cast...so unless we are talking a tribe of Orcs, that 6th level fighter, (if they beat the Fighter/MU in initiative), might kill a warband in one turn.

My memory is hazy but I think Fighter 4/ Magic-User 5 was the height of that particular multi-class combo.

A single class Magic -User was 6th level. By the time the Fighter-Mage reaches 6th level as a Magic-User, the straight class Magic -User is 7th level, at least, and possibly 8th level.

The spell casting disparity becomes noticeable, (4th level spells ),and snowballs from there due to the way the XP charts worked.

The Fighter/Mage stops keeping up with the Magic-User.

(Going from memory here...so some details might be off)

I think you must be waaay off, and you're using some rules I've never heard of (double-specialization? is that from Unearthed Arcana? and extra attacks for polearms?) because by the rules I'm familiar with, even with weapon specialization you only get 1 attack in round 1, and 2 attacks in round 2. (Plus one more off-hand attack if you go the dual-wielding route route.) You don't get two attacks per round until level 13, and there's no way as a sixth-level Fighter you're killing a dozen orcs in one round.

And yeah, some of your details are off, e.g. the highest exceptional strength is 18/00 for +3 to hit, +6 to damage which with weapon specialization would give you +4 to hit, +8 to damage, not +7/+10.

Segments are not rounds.

[Klorox]

I think you must be waaay off, and you're using some rules I've never heard of (double-specialization? is that from Unearthed Arcana? and extra attacks for polearms?) because by the rules I'm familiar with, even with weapon specialization you only get 1 attack in round 1, and 2 attacks in round 2. (Plus one more off-hand attack if you go the dual-wielding route route.) You don't get two attacks per round until level 13, and there's no way as a sixth-level Fighter you're killing a dozen orcs in one round.

And yeah, some of your details are off, e.g. the highest exceptional strength is 18/00 for +3 to hit, +6 to damage which with weapon specialization would give you +4 to hit, +8 to damage, not +7/+10.

Segments are not rounds.

You're correct here.

If you could guarantee to be playing above levels 5 or 6, multiclass always ended up better than single classed characters in AD&D.

The only limitations on this were the level limit rules, but these were much less restrictive in AD&D 2e, and Dragon magazine suggested advancing beyond the level limits anyway, just by awarding half XP to these characters to slow things down.

[Thunderous Mojo]

So this is cut from AD&D Unearthed Arcana, pg 18
Double Specialization: A fighter or ranger may either initially or at a later time decide to gain double specialization in his or her chosen weapon. Only melee weapons, excluding pole arms and the two-handed sword, may be used in double specialization. Double specialization is taken in- stead of a proficiency “slot” whenever the character qualifies for a new weapon, and can only be taken in the weapon type that the character is already specialized in. Double specialization gives the wielder +3 to hit and +3 to damage with that specific weapon.

This is from the AD&D DMG, (Efreet cover), pg 66:
Simultaneous Initiative: When opponents in melee have tied for initiative, blows (attack routines included) occur simultaneously, except when both opponentsare using weapons. Each weapon has a speed factor, and in the case of otherwise simultaneous blows, the opponent with the weapon which has the lower speed factor will strike first. Thus, a blow from a fist occurs before a blow with a dagger (1 to 2),a dagger before a short sword (2to 3), a short sword prior to a hammer (3 to 4), and so on.
Weapon Speed Factor: This number is indicative of the wieldiness of any particular weapon, how long it takes to ready the weapon against an opponent, or how long it takes to recover and move it in its attack mode. A pike, for example, is a 13, as it must be lowered, grasped, and then held/thrust firmly. Such a weapon is not usable in dungeon settings, or anywhere else without masses of other pikes to support it. In the latter case, an opponent surviving the first attack from the bearer of the pike will likely be able to strike several times before recovery of the pike for a second thrust. This is further detailed below. A two-handed sword, with a 10 speed factor, likewise requires o lengthy readying time and recovery period after its attack due to its size and weight.
When weapon speed factor is the determinont of which opponent strikes first in a melee round, there is a chance that one opponent will be entitled to multiple attacks Compare the scare of the lower-factored weapon with that of the higher. If the difference is at least twice the factor of the lower, or 5 or more factors in any case, the opponent with the lower factored weapon is entitled to 2 attacks before the opponent with the higher weapon factor is entitled to any attack whatsoever. If the difference is 10 or greater, the opponent with the lower-factored weapon is entitled to 2 attacks before the opponent is allowed to attack, and 1 further attack at the same time the opponent with the higher-speed-factoredweopon finally is allowed to attack. Note that such speed factor considerationsare not ap- plicable when either closing or chorging to melee, but after on initial round of combat, or in cases where closing/charging was not necessary, the speed factor considerationsare applicable.

Segments added by spells were not rounds, but acted in a similar fashion to weapon speed. A Fireball is a 3 segment spell. A short sword has a weapon speed factor of 3. As I said, a 6th level Fighter, under the right rules modules, could kill an orc warband.

AD&D had so many rules that either where non-compatible, excessively detailed, or non-intelligible, that most games never ever attempted to use them all.

(We did run two campaigns with ALL Rules Enabled)



Ok, enough nostalgia..... (sorry for the memory trips)

[MaxWilson]

So this is cut from AD&D Unearthed Arcana, pg 18
Double Specialization: A fighter or ranger may either initially or at a later time decide to gain double specialization in his or her chosen weapon. Only melee weapons, excluding pole arms and the two-handed sword, may be used in double specialization. Double specialization is taken in- stead of a proficiency “slot” whenever the character qualifies for a new weapon, and can only be taken in the weapon type that the character is already specialized in. Double specialization gives the wielder +3 to hit and +3 to damage with that specific weapon.

This is from the AD&D DMG, (Efreet cover), pg 66:
Simultaneous Initiative: When opponents in melee have tied for initiative, blows (attack routines included) occur simultaneously, except when both opponentsare using weapons. Each weapon has a speed factor, and in the case of otherwise simultaneous blows, the opponent with the weapon which has the lower speed factor will strike first. Thus, a blow from a fist occurs before a blow with a dagger (1 to 2),a dagger before a short sword (2to 3), a short sword prior to a hammer (3 to 4), and so on.
Weapon Speed Factor: This number is indicative of the wieldiness of any particular weapon, how long it takes to ready the weapon against an opponent, or how long it takes to recover and move it in its attack mode. A pike, for example, is a 13, as it must be lowered, grasped, and then held/thrust firmly. Such a weapon is not usable in dungeon settings, or anywhere else without masses of other pikes to support it. In the latter case, an opponent surviving the first attack from the bearer of the pike will likely be able to strike several times before recovery of the pike for a second thrust. This is further detailed below. A two-handed sword, with a 10 speed factor, likewise requires o lengthy readying time and recovery period after its attack due to its size and weight.
When weapon speed factor is the determinont of which opponent strikes first in a melee round, there is a chance that one opponent will be entitled to multiple attacks Compare the scare of the lower-factored weapon with that of the higher. If the difference is at least twice the factor of the lower, or 5 or more factors in any case, the opponent with the lower factored weapon is entitled to 2 attacks before the opponent with the higher weapon factor is entitled to any attack whatsoever. If the difference is 10 or greater, the opponent with the lower-factored weapon is entitled to 2 attacks before the opponent is allowed to attack, and 1 further attack at the same time the opponent with the higher-speed-factoredweopon finally is allowed to attack. Note that such speed factor considerationsare not ap- plicable when either closing or chorging to melee, but after on initial round of combat, or in cases where closing/charging was not necessary, the speed factor considerationsare applicable.

Segments added by spells were not rounds, but acted in a similar fashion to weapon speed. A Fireball is a 3 segment spell. A short sword has a weapon speed factor of 3. As I said, a 6th level Fighter, under the right rules modules, could kill an orc warband.

AD&D had so many rules that either where non-compatible, excessively detailed, or non-intelligible, that most games never ever attempted to use them all.

(We did run two campaigns with ALL Rules Enabled)

Ok, enough nostalgia..... (sorry for the memory trips)

Ah, it is UA after all. I am not familiar with UA, and not very familiar with first edition.

I see how those rules can get you three-ish attacks in the time it would take to Fireball, but I don't see how they get you to a dozen.

(And BTW it's not like AD&D has ceased to exist as a game. It's not my first choice when teaching someone new how to TTRPG, but it is my third choice or so, whereas 5E would be sixth or lower due to its complexity.)