devils can be raised as zombies right?

[newguydude1]

i know that 95% of the time a demons body doesnt leave a corpse so it cant be raised as a zombie. but devils

A devil slain in the Nine Hells stays dead. A devil slain outside Baator devolves into a puddle of foamy, stinking ooze over a period of 3 to 9 minutes. This residual soul essence registers as both magical and evil. Any mortal ingesting it must make a successful DC 20 Fortitude save or become sickened for 2d4 hours.

i can turn it into a zombie right if i turn it into a zombie right after its death right? and the resulting zombie wont devolve into a puddle of foamy stinking ooze right?

[Silent Alarm]

Yes, you can raise a Devil, or any Outsider for that matter, as a Zombie, or even a Skeleton if you so desire.

[gogogome]

Libris Mortis has a Vrock zombie and a Hound Archon zombie so yes, outsiders can become zombies.

I couldn't find a devil zombie yet, still looking.


Yes, you can raise a Devil, or any Outsider for that matter, as a Zombie, or even a Skeleton if you so desire.

The issue here is that you still need an intact body. Demons for example do not leave an intact body 95% of the time.

[magicalmagicman]

The issue here is that you still need an intact body. Demons for example do not leave an intact body 95% of the time.

For Fell Animate, I think specific trumps general

Any living creature that could normally be raised as a zombie and that does not possess more than double your Hit Dice, when slain outright by a fell animated spell, rises as a zombie under your control at the beginning of your next action.

So regardless of what normally happens to a demon or devil corpse, it will raise as a zombie 100% of the time.
I'd say even a Balor's death throes won't stop it from rising as a Skeletal Balor.

Maybe also Fell Animate Disintegrate? Because the current state of the corpse is irrelevant as long as the creature can be normally raised as a zombie, and it has been slain outright by a Disintegrate.

[Silent Alarm]

The issue here is that you still need an intact body. Demons for example do not leave an intact body 95% of the time.
The zombie template does not check if the creature being animated has an intact body, only that it has a skeletal system. The spell animate dead targets a "corpse", which Devils evidently leave behind for 3 to 9 minutes, therefore, yes you can animate devils, demons, angels, or any other type of outsider as a zombie or a skeleton IF they have a skeletal system.

[gogogome]

The zombie template does not check if the creature being animated has an intact body, only that it has a skeletal system. The spell animate dead targets a "corpse", which Devils evidently leave behind for 3 to 9 minutes, therefore, yes you can animate devils, demons, angels, or any other type of outsider as a zombie or a skeleton IF they have a skeletal system.

Demons don't leave a corpse or a skeleton behind 95% of the time. When they die, they could turn into a puddle, explode, split into a bunch of mini versions of itself that kill each other, get zapped by lightning and get disintegrated, etc.

[Arcane_Secrets]

Demons don't leave a corpse or a skeleton behind 95% of the time. When they die, they could turn into a puddle, explode, split into a bunch of mini versions of itself that kill each other, get zapped by lightning and get disintegrated, etc.

Has anyone tried statting the split into mini versions of themselves version of demon death? I think that'd be interesting.

[icefractal]

Outsiders being capable of becoming undead at all is pretty weird in terms of the D&D cosmology. Zombie / Skeleton isn't as weird as a Ghost would be (that one's not possible). But even then, it kind of clashes with the "an outsider's body and soul are the same thing."

Really, Outsiders being basically living creatures with normal physiology is somewhat odd itself. Although I get the gameplay reasons for that - "welcome to Planescape ... rogues should probably just kill themselves now" doesn't sound fun.

[newguydude1]

For Fell Animate, I think specific trumps general


So regardless of what normally happens to a demon or devil corpse, it will raise as a zombie 100% of the time.
I'd say even a Balor's death throes won't stop it from rising as a Skeletal Balor.

Maybe also Fell Animate Disintegrate? Because the current state of the corpse is irrelevant as long as the creature can be normally raised as a zombie, and it has been slain outright by a Disintegrate.

do you guys agree with this? eligible target dying to fell animate = zombie 100% of the time regardless of what happens to the body?

[Zanos]

Demons don't leave a corpse or a skeleton behind 95% of the time. When they die, they could turn into a puddle, explode, split into a bunch of mini versions of itself that kill each other, get zapped by lightning and get disintegrated, etc.
I believe FCI says you can use dimensional anchor to prevent this.

[ShurikVch]

Really, Outsiders being basically living creatures with normal physiology is somewhat odd itself. Although I get the gameplay reasons for that - "welcome to Planescape ... rogues should probably just kill themselves now" doesn't sound fun.
What's you mean? :smallconfused:
How, exactly, Outsider's physiology affects Rogue's ability to open locks?
Steal stuff?
Detect, disable, and install traps?
Bluff and intimidate?
Use magical devices?

[Segev]

What's you mean? :smallconfused:
How, exactly, Outsider's physiology affects Rogue's ability to open locks?
Steal stuff?
Detect, disable, and install traps?
Bluff and intimidate?
Use magical devices?

It nerfs rogues’ primary combat capability. You may as well say that monsters that radiate AMFs don’t stop wizards from buffing the party outside of combat, and therefore don’t screw over wizards if they’re the primary thing you encounter.

[ShurikVch]

It nerfs rogues’ primary combat capability. You may as well say that monsters that radiate AMFs don’t stop wizards from buffing the party outside of combat, and therefore don’t screw over wizards if they’re the primary thing you encounter.
Lion share of Planescape's fame came on 2E era
2E Rogue wasn't a combat class at all

[sleepyphoenixx]

do you guys agree with this? eligible target dying to fell animate = zombie 100% of the time regardless of what happens to the body?

No.

Any living creature that could normally be raised as a zombie
You need a body to be able to raise a creature as a zombie because the normal way to do so is Animate Dead, not the zombie template (that's just the mechanical effect).
So if you Fell Animate Disintegrate something you've just wasted 3 spell levels and get the ridicule of all the competent necromancers instead of a zombie minion. :smalltongue:

Same for Balors or similar creatures. If it explodes or otherwise disappears (instantly) when killed you can't normally raise it as a zombie, so you can't Fell Animate it either.
Something that takes several minutes for the corpse to disappear would work though.

Basically my thought process is a simple "could you cast Animate Dead on this after killing it?". If the answer is "no" for whatever reason you can't Fell Animate it either.

[Segev]

Lion share of Planescape's fame came on 2E era
2E Rogue wasn't a combat class at all

Backstab was still their primary combat contribution.

[ShurikVch]

Backstab was still their primary combat contribution.
No, it wasn't: 2E Rogue THAC0 progression is equal to 3E BAB ½ - chance Rogue just wouldn't hit was enormous
Sure, Backstab gave +4 to hit, but let's not forget:

To use this ability, the thief must be behind his victim and the victim must be unaware that the thief intends to attack him. If an enemy sees the thief, hears him approach from a blind side, or is warned by another, he is not caught unaware, and the backstab is handled like a normal attack (although bonuses for a rear attack still apply).
How good was the chances to actually use it?
Thus - nah, using magical devices was clearly a better contribution...

[Silent Alarm]

Demons don't leave a corpse or a skeleton behind 95% of the time. When they die, they could turn into a puddle, explode, split into a bunch of mini versions of itself that kill each other, get zapped by lightning and get disintegrated, etc.
That is an interesting house rule you've established, but unfortunately Fell Animate doesn't care about the final condition of the dead body so long as it has:

Killed a creature
Is an applicable target for the Zombie template.

Both of which a Demon can very well meet the requirements for.


You need a body to be able to raise a creature as a zombie because the normal way to do so is Animate Dead, not the zombie template (that's just the mechanical effect).
Your "thought process" is wrong because this is not Animate Dead. This is the Fell Animate Disintegrate, which in addition to potentially killing the target, also will animate them as a Zombie if they are dead. Use whatever lore justification you need to make it happen, but the end result is the same: The dead creature is now animated as a Zombie.


do you guys agree with this? eligible target dying to fell animate = zombie 100% of the time regardless of what happens to the body?
There is nothing to interpret, this is exactly what happens every time you kill something with a Fell Animate spell provided it is an eligible target for the Zombie template. It does not need a whole corpse as the metamagic does not reference Animate Dead, or Create Undead.

[Segev]

No, it wasn't: 2E Rogue THAC0 progression is equal to 3E BAB ½ - chance Rogue just wouldn't hit was enormous
Sure, Backstab gave +4 to hit, but let's not forget:

How good was the chances to actually use it?
Thus - nah, using magical devices was clearly a better contribution...

+4 was huge in 2E.

And like 5e, they were expected to be using it as their primary attack strategy, maneuvering to gain the backstab position or forcing the enemy to focus on preventing it to the detriment of avoiding the fighter.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Your "thought process" is wrong because this is not Animate Dead. This is the Fell Animate Disintegrate, which in addition to potentially killing the target, also will animate them as a Zombie if they are dead. Use whatever lore justification you need to make it happen, but the end result is the same: The dead creature is now animated as a Zombie.

Do you have anything to back that up? Because otherwise it's just wishful thinking.

You certainly can't normally raise a disintegrated corpse as a zombie.
And that's a requirement for Fell Animate to work, straight from the feat text.

[Remuko]

Do you have anything to back that up? Because otherwise it's just wishful thinking.

You certainly can't normally raise a disintegrated corpse as a zombie.
And that's a requirement for Fell Animate to work, straight from the feat text.

its down to interpretation. i dont take being disintegrated as "normally". normally would be "if this creature died in a mundane way could it be a zombie?" thats "normally" to me (and probably to others who disagree with you).

[gogogome]

That is an interesting house rule you've established, but unfortunately Fell Animate doesn't care about the final condition of the dead body so long as it has:

Killed a creature
Is an applicable target for the Zombie template.

Both of which a Demon can very well meet the requirements for.

Why don't you review Fiendish Codex I, or do a simple google search, before accusing me of passing house rules off as RAW.

[Vaern]

do you guys agree with this? eligible target dying to fell animate = zombie 100% of the time regardless of what happens to the body?
I'd disagree with it. It says it has that effect on a creature that could normally be raised as a zombie. If you wouldn't be able to cast animate dead on it then fell animate wouldn't work. Fell animate's zombification doesn't occur until the beginning of your next action, while the effect of disintegrate is instantaneous. It wouldn't animate the target instead of disintegrating it; it would simply disintegrate the target and then attempt to animate a corpse that no longer exists.

[Lo'Tek]

Outsiders being capable of becoming undead at all is pretty weird in terms of the D&D cosmology
Demons don't leave a corpse
my opinion, too: an outsiders body on the material plane is a mere projection of the actual being onto the material plane created by magic. If destroyed they do not leave corpses in the sense useable by necromancy, not even if one can reduce the timing to an "on kill" effect. However there can be variations of this: summoning a specific outsider could have included a humanoid sacrifice and defeating the outsider could leave the mutilated corpse of that sacrifice. Such cases often include the body horror transformation being undone, but might not. Other plausible in-campaign lore for leaving a fiend-like prime material body, that has natural weapons, extreme strength, armor class and hitpoints, could for example be a devil that ate its victims and thereby grew its material form. Note this is not a general indicator: a devil eating does not necessarily imply it has a material non-explanar body. Devils killed on their native plane might qualify for the acquisition of usable corpses, but could as well be ruled to dissolve into the plane of which they are formed, or necromancy might not even work as expected on that plane (see manual of the planes). A DM might consider limiting the strength and natural armor class of the resulting template stacked creature below mechanically applying the template, reasoning that the living fiends power was partially magic and has dissipated, so the corpse has lower attributes then the base creature. Same goes for any immunity, especially those to non-magic weapons.

Lastly note that the zombie template states that creatures with more than 10 Hit Dice can’t be made into a zombie with the animate dead spell, and by extension the fell animate feat. Any zombie listed in some rule book that has far more hit dice is designed as an antagonistic creature and their creation is not done with easily accessible standard magic, but requires special non standard fluff. High level player necromancers may get access to such abilities in-campaign, but players should be aware that the resulting undead followers might be vetoed for balancing reasons if presented at any other table.

[magicalmagicman]

and by extension the fell animate feat.

You're sneaking in house rules and trying to pass them off as RAW here.

[Lo'Tek]

You're sneaking in house rules and trying to pass them off as RAW here.

It was my understanding that fell animate works like animate dead, if that is wrong, i am sorry.
Edit: Looked it up, yeah Fell Animate has its own limit: "Any living creature that could normally be raised as a zombie and that does not possess more than double your Hit Dice," ... always with the specials in the splat books *sigh*

[magicalmagicman]

It was my understanding that fell animate works like animate dead, if that is wrong, i am sorry.
Edit: Looked it up, yeah Fell Animate has its own limit: "Any living creature that could normally be raised as a zombie and that does not possess more than double your Hit Dice," ... always with the specials in the splat books *sigh*

Fell Animate doesn't require a corpse either, technically anyway. It only needs to kill a creature that is a valid target for the zombie template. So an argument can be made that disintegrating a corpse slain by fell animate doesn't stop it from becoming a zombie.

I don't buy this though. A pile of dust can't "rise as a zombie". But if we're only using RAW I might be wrong.

[ShurikVch]

+4 was huge in 2E.
Well, firstly: don't you forget about how hard it was to actually use it?
If there was more that a single enemy, simple "Watch out!.." shout - and no Backstab for the Rogue
And, even in the case of a single enemy, - the enemy could just back into the wall, thus becoming unavailable for backstabbing

And secondly: even with those +4, Rogue was barely better than unbuffed Priest (mere 1 difference in Rogue's favor)


And like 5e
Wait a minute...
Is there some Planescape stuff for 5E?


they were expected to be using it as their primary attack strategy, maneuvering to gain the backstab position or forcing the enemy to focus on preventing it to the detriment of avoiding the fighter.
I found it hard to believe considering both how bad 2E Rogue's THAC0 was, and how little Rogue's hp pool was: not just Backstab had sizable chance to not hit (20th-level Rogue need roll 11+ to hit a Red Dragon), but one good attack from a monster - and Rogue goes to the afterlife
AFAIK, Rogue's best combat contribution in the earlier editions was: to threw a most expensive gem into Acererak in the Tomb of Horrors

Also, there is the Rogue variant (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) without Sneak Attack

[ezekielraiden]

Pretty sure that if raising fiends as zombies were a viable strategy, it would have made the rounds through the optimization guides at some point. I mean, being able to get outsiders as permanently obedient servants is a pretty sweet deal!

So yeah. I'm inclined to say no off-the-cuff, simply because 20 years of optimization discussion didn't find it. Might be a bit lazy of an argument, I admit, but I've seen how thorough most of the optimizers out there can get. It's a very simple idea. If it were doable, I'm pretty sure someone would have made a big stink about it at some point.

[magicalmagicman]

Pretty sure that if raising fiends as zombies were a viable strategy, it would have made the rounds through the optimization guides at some point. I mean, being able to get outsiders as permanently obedient servants is a pretty sweet deal!

So yeah. I'm inclined to say no off-the-cuff, simply because 20 years of optimization discussion didn't find it. Might be a bit lazy of an argument, I admit, but I've seen how thorough most of the optimizers out there can get. It's a very simple idea. If it were doable, I'm pretty sure someone would have made a big stink about it at some point.

Libris Mortis has zombie Hound Archons and Vrocks.

[Blue Jay]

Fell Animate doesn't require a corpse either, technically anyway. It only needs to kill a creature that is a valid target for the zombie template.

Well, if you want to be absolutely pedantic, the exact wording of the feat is "Any living creature that could normally be raised as a zombie..." Applying the zombie template is not the same as raising a zombie. Applying the template is an out-of-character process for generating a zombie's stats. Raising a zombie is an in-character process that has extra requirements and is beholden to situation-specific details like the condition of the remains. So, I don't think being a hypothetically valid target for the zombie template is enough: it also has to meet the requirements of some "normal" in-character process of raising zombies. And I don't think a disintegrated corpse can ever meet those requirements.

-----

As for the outsider zombie discussion, the "soul and body are one unit" principle for outsiders has been handled inconsistently across source books, so I think it'll just be up to your DM to decide which RAW answer they want to adhere to. For example, there are rules that allow fiends to separate their "essence" from their bodies and possess someone else's body; which is clearly not consistent with their purported non-dual nature.

Also, I don't think the rules about fiends' bodies dissolving or vanishing upon death are in the core rule books, but in the fiendish codices, so I'm not sure how we're supposed to adjudicate contradictions. In its introduction, Fiendish Codex I declares itself the definitive source for demonic lore, and it says that future books will defer to it on the subject; so I suppose that means any previous source that conflicts with it (possibly including things like the vrock zombie in Libris Mortis) should be treated as deprecated. But then, it also includes a story about someone who "inexplicably" kept and dissected a dretch's body after its death, so who knows, really?

So personally, I think it's entirely open to DM discretion.

[Lo'Tek]

Libris Mortis has zombie Hound Archons and Vrocks.
... as sample undeads under a chapter header that makes it very clear these are inspirational ressources for constructing your own campaign or setting. Those stats might as well be for some zombie-vrocks that circle above the necropolis of an undead god deep in the lower layers of the abyss.

[magicalmagicman]

Well, if you want to be absolutely pedantic, the exact wording of the feat is "Any living creature that could normally be raised as a zombie..." Applying the zombie template is not the same as raising a zombie. Applying the template is an out-of-character process for generating a zombie's stats. Raising a zombie is an in-character process that has extra requirements and is beholden to situation-specific details like the condition of the remains. So, I don't think being a hypothetically valid target for the zombie template is enough: it also has to meet the requirements of some "normal" in-character process of raising zombies. And I don't think a disintegrated corpse can ever meet those requirements.

The pedantic argument is that the corpse is not a "living creature" therefore it is entirely irrelevant to the metamagic feat.
Living creature is slain by Fell Animate.
The corpse is never mentioned in the feat description.
So as long as you slay the living creature with Fell Animate it rises as a zombie next turn.


As for the outsider zombie discussion, the "soul and body are one unit" principle for outsiders has been handled inconsistently across source books, so I think it'll just be up to your DM to decide which RAW answer they want to adhere to. For example, there are rules that allow fiends to separate their "essence" from their bodies and possess someone else's body; which is clearly not consistent with their purported non-dual nature.

Also, I don't think the rules about fiends' bodies dissolving or vanishing upon death are in the core rule books, but in the fiendish codices, so I'm not sure how we're supposed to adjudicate contradictions. In its introduction, Fiendish Codex I declares itself the definitive source for demonic lore, and it says that future books will defer to it on the subject; so I suppose that means any previous source that conflicts with it (possibly including things like the vrock zombie in Libris Mortis) should be treated as deprecated. But then, it also includes a story about someone who "inexplicably" kept and dissected a dretch's body after its death, so who knows, really?

So personally, I think it's entirely open to DM discretion.

We have an official Vrock zombie stat block so it's clear that outsiders can be zombies. As long as they have a skeletal system. Exoskeletal system is up for debate.


... as sample undeads under a chapter header that makes it very clear these are inspirational ressources for constructing your own campaign or setting. Those stats might as well be for some zombie-vrocks that circle above the necropolis of an undead god deep in the lower layers of the abyss.

I don't understand your point. WotC showed that vrocks are valid creatures for the zombie template.

[hamishspence]

And Fiendish Codex 1's Demonic Death Throes table states that a small percentage of demons do leave usable corpses after death - so no problems with the "dissected dretch" or the vrock zombies existing.

[Zanos]

And Fiendish Codex 1's Demonic Death Throes table states that a small percentage of demons do leave usable corpses after death - so no problems with the "dissected dretch" or the vrock zombies existing.
As I already mentioned in this thread, and double checked, Dimensonial Anchor explicitly prevents the weird death throes from consuming the corpse.

[Silent Alarm]

Do you have anything to back that up? Because otherwise it's just wishful thinking.

You certainly can't normally raise a disintegrated corpse as a zombie.
And that's a requirement for Fell Animate to work, straight from the feat text.

Wrong. Fell Animate does not even require a corpse being left behind for it to function. The feat does exactly what it says, how it says it does, regardless of the state of the now dead enemy. My source? Actually reading the feat:




You can alter a spell that deals damage to foes. Any living creature that could normally be raised as a zombie and that does not possess more than double your Hit Dice, when slain outright by a fell animated spell, rises as a zombie under your control at the beginning of your next action. Even if you kill several creatures with a single fell animated spell, you can't create more Hit Dice of undead than twice your caster level. The standard rules for controlling undead (see animate dead, page 198 of the Player's Handbook) apply to newly created undead gained through this metamagic feat. A fell animated spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell's actual level.
It's okay to admit that you maybe misremembered what the feat did, or maybe you've never actually read it in your entire life. But don't pretend that your house rules are actual rules to the game and then when presented with actual evidence to the contrary, throw a tantrum.


Why don't you review Fiendish Codex I, or do a simple google search, before accusing me of passing house rules off as RAW.
Why would I actually read or open up Fiendish Codex I when we are talking about a feat from Libra Mortis? Ridiculous. Furthermore, others have refuted this point repeatedly throughout this thread.


Fell Animate doesn't require a corpse either, technically anyway. It only needs to kill a creature that is a valid target for the zombie template. So an argument can be made that disintegrating a corpse slain by fell animate doesn't stop it from becoming a zombie.
Full stop right here. There is no argument, no debate, no question to the contrary that if a spell modified by Fell Animate kills a creature, it is then animated as a Zombie (presuming it has a skeleton).

[Blue Jay]

The pedantic argument is that the corpse is not a "living creature" therefore it is entirely irrelevant to the metamagic feat.

This is just a deliberately obtuse reading of the text. The feat makes clear reference to the creature only rising after it's been slain, so this reading is obviously just wrong.


Living creature is slain by Fell Animate.
The corpse is never mentioned in the feat description.
So as long as you slay the living creature with Fell Animate it rises as a zombie next turn.

Well, I think the idea you're espousing is certainly one possible interpretation of the text; but your argument for it is quite a bit weaker than the alternative. The text of the feat stipulates that the creature must be eligible to be raised by "normal" means. To you and Silent Alarm, this means that any creature that is a valid target for the zombie template is eligible. But, from where I sit, there's more to raising a creature than just applying the zombie template. Some creatures that are valid targets for the zombie template still can't be raised. Creatures that have been slain by a disintegrate spell are a primary example of that.

So, I think it's more reasonable to say that Fell Animate does not animate a disintegrated corpse. It's supported by a very straightforward reading of the text, and by a glitch-free outcome when you apply it in-game. So, I think RAW and RAI both align behind this interpretation.


We have an official Vrock zombie stat block so it's clear that outsiders can be zombies. As long as they have a skeletal system. Exoskeletal system is up for debate.

I think we can all agree that an appeal to a stat block isn't the most convincing argument in a rules debate. The official stat blocks are notoriously full of errors and rules violations, so if your argument relies on extrapolating from a stat block, it's on pretty shaky ground.

Also, as I mentioned before, Fiendish Codex I declares itself the definitive source on demons, and claims to override the information in any earlier publication that conflicts with it. Since the vrock zombie is from an earlier publication, it may very well be one of those bits of information that Fiendish Codex I overrides. So again, the existence of that vrock zombie stat block is not particularly strong evidence that demons can be animated as zombies.