Spell points sorcerer questions...

[samcifer]

Is a sorcerer using spell pts better, worse or just different from one using spell slots? What if they mc into warlock? How would that work? For reference, I'm thinking of a blaster sorc who uses spell like Fireball and Scorching Ray.

How about the new subclasses with a larger spell list?

[Mastikator]

You can convert sorcery points into spell slots and wise versa, but it's a lossy process. 1 level 1 slot becomes 1 sorcery points, the reverse costs 2 points for 1 level 1 slot.
Use spell slots first for spells, use sorcery points on metamagic or subclass features. Only convert as a last resort IMO.

[samcifer]

You can convert sorcery points into spell slots and wise versa, but it's a lossy process. 1 level 1 slot becomes 1 sorcery points, the reverse costs 2 points for 1 level 1 slot.
Use spell slots first for spells, use sorcery points on metamagic or subclass features. Only convert as a last resort IMO.

Not sorcerer pts. I mean the spell pts. variation in the dungeon masters guide.

[moonfly7]

You can convert sorcery points into spell slots and wise versa, but it's a lossy process. 1 level 1 slot becomes 1 sorcery points, the reverse costs 2 points for 1 level 1 slot.
Use spell slots first for spells, use sorcery points on metamagic or subclass features. Only convert as a last resort IMO.

He's asking about the Spell points variant in the DMG which replaces spell slots with spell points.
I'm currently playing with a sorcerer whose doing just that and so far he's just as good as any other caster on the team, no better, no worse. And we have a light cleric and a Blade singer wizard both of which and all 3 are pretty good at damage spells. Personally I think it's perfectly balanced(as all things should be).

[Kane0]

I like Spell points on the sorcerer (and only the sorcerer), as they give the sorcerer back some flavor-appropriate uniqueness that was taken from them when all casters became 'spontaneous' (as in didn't need to fill specific spell slots with spells to prepare them). Changing Metamagic from feats to Sorc-specific abilities is neat but I think isn't enough on its own to justify the Sorcerer.

But I don't just give the Sorc DMG Spell Points and call it a day. Because Sorcery points exist, and are both abbreviated to SP, and both are used to power spellcasting, and both are long-rest based I merge the pools. This removes the net resource loss from transferring between the two, but also effectively increases your ability to SPAM. I counteract this by taking away the [Sorcerer level] number of SP that Sorcery Points and instead use [Cha bonus] points, which you regain [Prof bonus] at the end of a short rest. This increases your ability to use expensive Metamagic options in Tier one, reduces your 5-minute adventuring day payload AND provides the Sorc a much needed Short-rest mechanic without neutering your ability to mix and match casting with Metamagic.

Now, regarding Multiclassing I take the simplest approach. Spell slots, spell points or pact magic slots can all be used for any spell you know/have prepared, but if you want to apply Metamagic to a spell it must be cast as a sorcerer spell using Spell Points. So for example a Sorlock can extend Armor of Agathys but must cast it using Spell Points to do so. This is easy to remember because the cost of using Metamagic is always in SP, so when you use SP you have to pay the whole cost in SP and cannot mix in a slot as well.

If the Sorc got a bundle of extra spells I would probably reign back some of this as they become as versatile in spell breadth as other casters, probably once they surpass about the 20 spells known mark.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I use a Sorcerer with spell point, the sorcery point pool is sperate to make it still cost a bonus action so I won't be too strong.

I also have two levels in the warlock class and convert the slots to sorcery points and from sorcery points to spell points.

It add versatility that make the sorcerer feel more sorcery.

[TheUser]

Sorcery Points and specifically the Font of Magic feature act as virtual spell points but with a tax. Do you think maybe WotC did that for a reason?

While it may be popular, spell points is wildly overpowered on a Sorcerer as you hit level 5 and start shelling out more level 3 spells than other casters can dream of. The difference only becomes more extreme as you gain levels.

I tried spell points thinking it would be a good fit for sorcerers and it ended up being a staggering power difference between myself and the other casters in the group. It's nuts. Font of Magic was implemented with slot synthesis tax for a reason and even with that tax it's still decent.

[Habber_Dasher]

Sorcery Points and specifically the Font of Magic feature act as virtual spell points but with a tax. Do you think maybe WotC did that for a reason?

While it may be popular, spell points is wildly overpowered on a Sorcerer as you hit level 5 and start shelling out more level 3 spells than other casters can dream of. The difference only becomes more extreme as you gain levels.

Except they kind of through that out the window with the Aberrant Mind. Even if they can only cast particular spells with SP, the AM can get some pretty awesome spells on their psi list. That combined with the fact that they have so many spells known at early levels makes them one of the most powerful spell casters now in my mind.

[TheUser]

Except they kind of through that out the window with the Aberrant Mind. Even if they can only cast particular spells with SP, the AM can get some pretty awesome spells on their psi list. That combined with the fact that they have so many spells known at early levels makes them one of the most powerful spell casters now in my mind.

False equivalency much? An optional subclass that can font of magic 10 spells from 2 different schools tax free is equivalent to all spells from all schools for baseline sorcerers? There's a difference between a level 5 player casting 6 Tongues/Clairvoyance/Catnap/Enemies Abound in one adventuring day and 6 Fireball/Hypnotic Pattern/Dispel Magic/Counterspell/Fear/Haste/Lightning Bolts casts.

[Valmark]

It's a straight boost for almost any caster, sorcerers included until when you unlock multiple 6th and 7th level spells.

Before then you have your spell points and can use them to make spell slots of any level- after that "normal" casters can cast 2 6th level spells and 2 7th levels spells while "variant' casters only cast 1 6th and 1 7th level spells.

Interestingly enough you still get enough spell points that you would be able to cast those additional slots- meaning you have even more casting of level 5th or less spells.

Warlocks ignore the rule because they don't have Spellcasting, so multiclassing would give you Spell Points and Warlock Spell Slots.

As far as the sorcerer is concerned when compared to other casters... They have more or less the same boost that the others get over their normal version.

As far as the new subclasses are concerned... I don't think they alter this in any way? They get more spells known but don't get more spell slots. I think.

[samcifer]

It's a straight boost for almost any caster, sorcerers included until when you unlock multiple 6th and 7th level spells.

Before then you have your spell points and can use them to make spell slots of any level- after that "normal" casters can cast 2 6th level spells and 2 7th levels spells while "variant' casters only cast 1 6th and 1 7th level spells.

Interestingly enough you still get enough spell points that you would be able to cast those additional slots- meaning you have even more casting of level 5th or less spells.

Warlocks ignore the rule because they don't have Spellcasting, so multiclassing would give you Spell Points and Warlock Spell Slots.

As far as the sorcerer is concerned when compared to other casters... They have more or less the same boost that the others get over their normal version.

As far as the new subclasses are concerned... I don't think they alter this in any way? They get more spells known but don't get more spell slots. I think.

If I read the spell pt. variation rules correctly, a character with 5 levels of sorc and 2 of warlock would have 2 lv. 1 spell slots and 38 spell pts. as a 7th level character? Or would it only be 27 pts. for the 5 levels of sorcerer?

Also, would that allow me to have more 'technical' spell slots of a certain level, say 5 lvl. 3 slots per long rest since a lv. 3 spell slot costs 5 spell pts. (or 7 slots of lvl. 3 at 38 spell pts. as a lvl. 7 character)?

[Xoronis]

If I read the spell pt. variation rules correctly, a character with 5 levels of sorc and 2 of warlock would have 2 lv. 1 spell slots and 38 spell pts. as a 7th level character? Or would it only be 27 pts. for the 5 levels of sorcerer?

To address this question specifically, you'd only have 27 pts. The multiclassing rules specifically state that Pact Magic is calculated separately from other spellcasting abilities. So, even with using spell slots, Warlock slots are kept track of differently than everyone else.

[Valmark]

If I read the spell pt. variation rules correctly, a character with 5 levels of sorc and 2 of warlock would have 2 lv. 1 spell slots and 38 spell pts. as a 7th level character? Or would it only be 27 pts. for the 5 levels of sorcerer?

Also, would that allow me to have more 'technical' spell slots of a certain level, say 5 lvl. 3 slots per long rest since a lv. 3 spell slot costs 5 spell pts. (or 7 slots of lvl. 3 at 38 spell pts. as a lvl. 7 character)?

What Xoronis said, 27 pts. (And 2 lv.1 warlock slots).

And yes- you could use them all on lv. 3 slots and get 5 instead of... 2 I think a caster has at that level? Or any other combination.

[Kane0]

There's a difference between a level 5 player casting 6 Tongues/Clairvoyance/Catnap/Enemies Abound in one adventuring day and 6 Fireball/Hypnotic Pattern/Dispel Magic/Counterspell/Fear/Haste/Lightning Bolts casts.

In theory all spells of a given level are supposed to be equivalent, which is why they are split into levels.
In theory.

The bonus spells are restricted by school but you can also swap using multiple class lists

Theres also the AM’s straight-from-SP casting of certain spells which further blurs the line between slots and SP and the Font of Magic Tax.

But yeah, when you go spell points you tend to end up spamming your favorite spell a bunch until you run dry, which is what a stock sorc can do anyways just without the bonus action cost and conversion tax.

Edit: I should have mentioned above that when i use the modded sorc above that merges SP pools I take away the Font of Magic slot conversion mechanic, because you have no spell slots to convert and only functions for MC cheese.

[samcifer]

In theory all spells of a given level are supposed to be equivalent, which is why they are split into levels.
In theory.

The bonus spells are restricted by school but you can also swap using multiple class lists

Theres also the AM’s straight-from-SP casting of certain spells which further blurs the line between slots and SP and the Font of Magic Tax.

But yeah, when you go spell points you tend to end up spamming your favorite spell a bunch until you run dry, which is what a stock sorc can do anyways just without the bonus action cost and conversion tax.

Edit: I should have mentioned above that when i use the modded sorc above that merges SP pools I take away the Font of Magic slot conversion mechanic, because you have no spell slots to convert and only functions for MC cheese.

My only issue with spell slots into sorcery pts. and back into spell slots is that you end up using more sorcery pts. to create a spell slot than spell pts. because you have to spend more sorc. pts. than spell pts. to create a spell slot when trying to convert lower slots into higher ones using sorcery pts.. :(

For example, the cost to create a spell slot of lvl. 3 is 5 pts. for both sorcery pts. and spell pts., but changing lower slots only gives you the level of the slot as sorc. pts., 2 for lvl.2 and 1 for lvl. 1, meaning that you'll have to cash in 2 lv. 2 and a lvl. 1 just to get an extra lvl. 3 slot. Seems like it's not worth the cost to me, and going the spell pts. route is better if you want more slots of lvl.s 3 thru 5.

[Kane0]

My only issue with spell slots into sorcery pts. and back into spell slots is that you end up using more sorcery pts. to create a spell slot than spell pts. because you have to spend more sorc. pts. than spell pts. to create a spell slot when trying to convert lower slots into higher ones using sorcery pts.. :(

For example, the cost to create a spell slot of lvl. 3 is 5 pts. for both sorcery pts. and spell pts., but changing lower slots only gives you the level of the slot as sorc. pts., 2 for lvl.2 and 1 for lvl. 1, meaning that you'll have to cash in 2 lv. 2 and a lvl. 1 just to get an extra lvl. 3 slot. Seems like it's not worth the cost to me, and going the spell pts. route is better if you want more slots of lvl.s 3 thru 5.

Yeah thats the conversion tax, and i dont like it either. I find it odd that a player can go back and forth between this magic spellfuel and that magicspellfuel and in doing so run out of both without actually doing any magic. More of a game mechanic than class fantasy

[Habber_Dasher]

False equivalency much? An optional subclass that can font of magic 10 spells from 2 different schools tax free is equivalent to all spells from all schools for baseline sorcerers? There's a difference between a level 5 player casting 6 Tongues/Clairvoyance/Catnap/Enemies Abound in one adventuring day and 6 Fireball/Hypnotic Pattern/Dispel Magic/Counterspell/Fear/Haste/Lightning Bolts casts.

I wasn't trying to say they were equivalent. They're obviously not. The argument I was trying to make was that even the Aberrant Mind's restricted version of spell point casting is still very powerful.

Hunger of Hadar isn't quite as good as hypnotic pattern, but it's still a great battlefield control spell. You can still use your regular slots to cast fireball/counterspell/ whatever and still have 2-3 HoHs on top of that. That will see you through most adventuring days. It just gets better as you level up. Polymorph and Dimensions Door are probably the best 4th level spells, but neither are something I necessarily want to cast in every combat. Being able to cast Evard's black tentacles or summon aberration, two very versatile spells, while saving your precious 4th level slots is amazing. And I can think of few 5th level spells that would be better for spamming than telekinesis or synaptic static.

Anyway, yes I agree, spell point casting is overpowered. As it is, I think the Aberrant Mind's weaker version makes it one of the most powerful spell casters.

[Kane0]

While it may be popular, spell points is wildly overpowered on a Sorcerer as you hit level 5 and start shelling out more level 3 spells than other casters can dream of. The difference only becomes more extreme as you gain levels.
I got curious, and ran some numbers because I got bored at work.

Say we have some level 5 characters; a wizard, a stock sorc, a DMG spell point sorc and a spell point sorc sharing their two SP pools to negate any conversion loss. They like to open combat with a main gun, a 3rd level spell, then follow up with a 1st or 2nd before mop-up time using cantrips. I will assume at least one short rest during the day.
The Wizard can do this three times per day with some lower level slots extra
The stock Sorc can do this twice per day, once more by burning SP for an extra 3rd level slot and maybe once more again by burning some spare spell slots
The DMG SP Sorc can do this three times per day, and once more by burning SP for an extra 3rd level spell
The SP-sharing Sorc can do this four times per day with 4 SP left over.

Okay, so maybe hyperbolic as stated above but you can indeed get in more 3rd level spells than other casters by foregoing lower level spells.

But let's take a look at level 15. Now we're opening combat with a 5th level spell then following up with a 3rd, again with at least one short rest.

The wizard can do this four three times per day with change including both higher level slots
The stock Sorc can do this twice per day with change including higher level slots, and twice more by burning both Sorc points and some low level spell slots
The DMG SP sorc can do this seven times per day with all sorcery points and 10 spell points remaining, enough for a single 6th or 7th level spell
The SP-sharing sorc can do this nine times per day with one single SP/SP left over.

Here we can see what TheUser is talking about. Spell Points lets you dump the same spell combo double to triple the number of times a slot-user can. Obviously if you go all the way this means you can't also use metamagic or cast other spells but this is a phantom cost as you don't actually lose your ability to do so at any point up until you run dry, unlike a slot caster.

So there you go, be armed with that knowledge however it may suit you.

[TheUser]

I got curious, and ran some numbers because I got bored at work.

Say we have some level 5 characters; a wizard, a stock sorc, a DMG spell point sorc and a spell point sorc sharing their two SP pools to negate any conversion loss. They like to open combat with a main gun, a 3rd level spell, then follow up with a 1st or 2nd before mop-up time using cantrips. I will assume at least one short rest during the day.
The Wizard can do this three times per day with some lower level slots extra
The stock Sorc can do this twice per day, once more by burning SP for an extra 3rd level slot and maybe once more again by burning some spare spell slots
The DMG SP Sorc can do this three times per day, and once more by burning SP for an extra 3rd level spell
The SP-sharing Sorc can do this four times per day with 4 SP left over.

Okay, so maybe hyperbolic as stated above but you can indeed get in more 3rd level spells than other casters by foregoing lower level spells.

But let's take a look at level 15. Now we're opening combat with a 5th level spell then following up with a 3rd, again with at least one short rest.

The wizard can do this four three times per day with change including both higher level slots
The stock Sorc can do this twice per day with change including higher level slots, and twice more by burning both Sorc points and some low level spell slots
The DMG SP sorc can do this seven times per day with all sorcery points and 10 spell points remaining, enough for a single 6th or 7th level spell
The SP-sharing sorc can do this nine times per day with one single SP/SP left over.

Here we can see what TheUser is talking about. Spell Points lets you dump the same spell combo double to triple the number of times a slot-user can. Obviously if you go all the way this means you can't also use metamagic or cast other spells but this is a phantom cost as you don't actually lose your ability to do so at any point up until you run dry, unlike a slot caster.

So there you go, be armed with that knowledge however it may suit you.

The ridiculous output comes online way before level 15. Let's look at level 9 and imagine that the Sorcerer saves some level 1 spells for shield and absorb elements.

How many level 5 spells can a sorcerer shell out with spell points?

Well, without any sorcery point conversion the sorcerer shells out SEVEN level 5 spells! If they forgo 1 of those 5th level spells they have 4 shields/absorb elements.

To a standard wizard's...2 (that includes arcane recovery).

It looks somewhat manageable at level 5 but as early as level 7 it goes right off the rails with six level 4 spells (again compared to the wizard's 2 with Arcane Recovery) and that's without dipping into sorcery points.

It can also be just as offbalancing going the other way; instead of being limited to shield 4x a day before needing to eat higher level slots they can just shell out 10 of them effortlessly....

[Kane0]

You’re not wrong, but if we’re talking only casting highest level spells as much as possible I feel warlock would be a better comparison than wizard.

[Valmark]

I'm kind of confused on what's the point of comparing a SP (Spell Points) sorcerer to a standard wizard. Or any other standard caster for the matter that isn't a sorcerer (what was asked).

Spell Points are a power boost besides a specific detail- so obviously the standard wizard is going to fall behind in number of high level spell slots thrown (high level relative to your current level). Just like the standard sorcerer.

(Ditto for the SP-sharing sorcerer homebrew Kane0 mentioned, though that one is more dependant on the party and players because it needs short rests).
Speaking of which, I'm kinda confused by that comparison. The homebrewed sorcerer should have a third of the DMG sorcerer's resources (I haven't actually understood wether it's sorcery points or spell points that key off of Cha bonus) and a short rest shouldn't give you back enough to equal the DMG one at 15th level. Which is what happened there.

[RSP]

I like using the SP variant for Sorc (and only Sorc). I feel the class is unnecessarily taxed on their Sorc Points: all their abilities runoff this one resource. Using the SP variant is a little more efficient than doing slots with Flexible Casting.

For the most part, a PC Sorc can already exchange all their lower spell slots into highest slots available using Flexible Casting. This just allows a slight bump in effectiveness.

In my opinion, the Sorc class is a bit behind other full casters (all of whom get at least one other ability that runs off different resources while getting the same amount of casting - Ritual Casting, Inspiration, Wild Shape; not to mention Prof and whatnot), so making their one resource a bit more efficient is fine in helping get them balanced.

[samcifer]

What if I had 2 levels of bard and 5 of sorc on a lvl. 7 character? Would that give me the 38 spell pts.? What if those 2 levels were in paladin instead of bard?

[Valmark]

What if I had 2 levels of bard and 5 of sorc on a lvl. 7 character? Would that give me the 38 spell pts.? What if those 2 levels were in paladin instead of bard?

2 bard + 5 sorcerer would give 38 pts, yes.
2 paladin + 5 sorcerer would give 32 because paladins count half their level according to the multiclass rules.

[RSP]

What if I had 2 levels of bard and 5 of sorc on a lvl. 7 character? Would that give me the 38 spell pts.? What if those 2 levels were in paladin instead of bard?

If this is regarding only “Sorc Only SPs”, I think there’s a few ways it could be handled:

- So long as main class is Sorc, it’s all SPs (I’m not a huge fan of this)
- Multiclassing removes the SP variant
- The classes total together to figure the SP total, how her, the non-Sorc classes get their spell slots locked in (can still be swapped via Flexible Casting). So, for the 2 Bard/5 Sorc, you’d have SPs as a 7th level caster, but you’d subtract the cost of those 4 first level slots, and have those as slots

[Kane0]

If this is regarding only “Sorc Only SPs”, I think there’s a few ways it could be handled:

- So long as main class is Sorc, it’s all SPs (I’m not a huge fan of this)
- Multiclassing removes the SP variant
- The classes total together to figure the SP total, how her, the non-Sorc classes get their spell slots locked in (can still be swapped via Flexible Casting). So, for the 2 Bard/5 Sorc, you’d have SPs as a 7th level caster, but you’d subtract the cost of those 4 first level slots, and have those as slots

Or D) Spell points are always separate from other casting just like pact magic is.

[Vogie]

First of all, if you actually read the DMG Spell point variant, anyone who uses it is actually capped at one 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level spell - you simply don't get to spam them, and by switching to that variant, a high-level sorc actually loses a 6th and 7th level spell.

Secondly, I would only allow it if the player isn't actively trying to min-max to the character. A Combined-Pool Spell Point Sorcerer (CPSPS) could, indeed, just spam the BEST SPELLS EV-AR to the detriment of the DM's ability to properly balance encounters and adventuring days. That's just turning the Sorcerer into a hyper-aggressive wizard. I'd also lock that player out of multiclassing into other spellcasting classes - the appeal of spell points is flexibility, not raw power. And the accidental "dip 2 levels into warlock to get the sorc level 20 feature" is just not cool.

However, ideally, the CPSPS is more aggressively using Metamagic abilities than the RAW Sorcerer BECAUSE they have a much larger pool of them. Something like 2-sp quicken spell metamagic seems like it's a huge investment when you have all of 5 spell points per long rest, for example. However, that 2-sp quicken out of a pool of 32 seems like nothing. (level 5 sorcs have 4/3/2/- spell slots, which would be 8+9+10 spell points, plus 5 sorc points for being level 5, total of 32).

So, in the hands of a player who wants to really enjoy the metamagic, a CPSPS would work fine. In the hands of a "Level 5 means 6 Fireballs, lol" player, it's dumb and overpowered.

[Asmerv]

Well, without any sorcery point conversion the sorcerer shells out SEVEN level 5 spells! If they forgo 1 of those 5th level spells they have 4 shields/absorb elements.

To a standard wizard's...2 (that includes arcane recovery).

It looks somewhat manageable at level 5 but as early as level 7 it goes right off the rails with six level 4 spells (again compared to the wizard's 2 with Arcane Recovery) and that's without dipping into sorcery points.


But they can already cast six 5th level spells at level 9 through font of magic and have some SP/1st level spells left over. Is upping that to seven really that game breaking?

Again, they can already cast five 6th level spells at level 7. Is five really that much worse than six?

I think I most agree with the point Kane0 made - this lossy conversion from one spellfuel to other spellfuel feels strange especially given the class fantasy, and I particularly dislike the bonus action economy penalty.

Not to say TheUser doesn't have a point, but that can easily be fixed by slightly lowering the total points available after switching to spell points and merging with sorcery points. That way you can still only output a similar number of high level spells, but you can decide spontaneously how to best spend your resources in the moment rather than 'oh I need a level 4 slot, let me spend two turns cannibalizing some lower level slots and finally making a 4th level slot on turn three. Oh wait combat is over'

[Kane0]

First of all, if you actually read the DMG Spell point variant, anyone who uses it is actually capped at one 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level spell - you simply don't get to spam them, and by switching to that variant, a high-level sorc actually loses a 6th and 7th level spell.

Secondly, I would only allow it if the player isn't actively trying to min-max to the character. A Combined-Pool Spell Point Sorcerer (CPSPS) could, indeed, just spam the BEST SPELLS EV-AR to the detriment of the DM's ability to properly balance encounters and adventuring days. That's just turning the Sorcerer into a hyper-aggressive wizard. I'd also lock that player out of multiclassing into other spellcasting classes - the appeal of spell points is flexibility, not raw power. And the accidental "dip 2 levels into warlock to get the sorc level 20 feature" is just not cool.

However, ideally, the CPSPS is more aggressively using Metamagic abilities than the RAW Sorcerer BECAUSE they have a much larger pool of them. Something like 2-sp quicken spell metamagic seems like it's a huge investment when you have all of 5 spell points per long rest, for example. However, that 2-sp quicken out of a pool of 32 seems like nothing. (level 5 sorcs have 4/3/2/- spell slots, which would be 8+9+10 spell points, plus 5 sorc points for being level 5, total of 32).

So, in the hands of a player who wants to really enjoy the metamagic, a CPSPS would work fine. In the hands of a "Level 5 means 6 Fireballs, lol" player, it's dumb and overpowered.

Do note that this only matters at level 19 and 20

More or less agreed on MCing, though i prefer to just have SP not stack with other casting methods of casting instead of disabling it entirely.

And that would be like a long rest counterpart to the warlock (who gets about the same casting with two short rests per long), except MM instead of Invocations.