Game Structures

[Sparky McDibben]

Hey all,

I'm prepping a Western-themed campaign, and I'm trying to make some of the awesome things about Westerns into something that feels awesome at the table. Has anyone encountered game structures for the following, or that can be adapted for them:


Quickdraw Gunslinger Duels
Jumping / Running On Top of A Moving Train
Gambling (Poker / Blackjack)
Horsebreaking
Horse Chases / Races


Thanks!

[MaxWilson]

Hey all,

I'm prepping a Western-themed campaign, and I'm trying to make some of the awesome things about Westerns into something that feels awesome at the table. Has anyone encountered game structures for the following, or that can be adapted for them:


Quickdraw Gunslinger Duels
Jumping / Running On Top of A Moving Train
Gambling (Poker / Blackjack)
Horsebreaking
Horse Chases / Races


Thanks!

The only one I've got anything useful to say about is #1, Quickdraw Gunslinger Duels. Remember that these exist only for legal reasons--if you saw the other guy going for his gun first, you can plead self-defense and avoid a murder conviction. Accordingly there's not that much need for them in 5E, where you can realistically just absorb the first round of attacks, but if you don't want to allow that you can just use a normal "everybody declares, then everybody acts" initiative system, i.e. allow both parties to decide to attack (or ready actions to attack when attacked, which amounts to the same thing unless you're a stickler for the Extra Attack technicality which doesn't really exist anyway in a concurrent initiative system because there are no separate turns) and roll initiative if necessary.

I guess I do have something to say about Poker. The fun of Poker in a narrative is playing out the hands, so I'd actually deal out Poker hands to everyone playing, and then use opposed Insight (or Gaming/Poker) checks to see if you are able to exploit or conceal the value of your hand. That is, being good at Poker means you will lose small on your weak hands and win big on your good hands, but it won't actually change how often you get a good hand (except a little, in draw poker). Therefore, the procedure to use at the table is: deal out a hand to everyone (DM playing NPCs if necessary), make everyone roll Insight or Gaming checks, then simply let everyone peek at the hand of everyone who rolled 2 or more worse than them, and then place bets as normal. I.e. the gaming structure is use here is Poker, plus ability checks.

[Cicciograna]

I just came up, on the spur of the moment, with these poker rules, see if you like them. They haven't been playtested or anything, so take them with a grain of salt.

Poker

Materials needed for each player:

2d20 per player
an extra d20 for advantage
an extra d20 to roll skill checks
two cups


The regular hand
At the beginning of the hand, each player takes one of the cups, drops 1d20 in it, shakes the cup and uses it to roll the dice, leaving the cup over the die. They can take a sneak peek at their outcome, hiding it from the other players. This is their starting hand.
They can then raise, call or drop, depending on the die result. If there are other players playing, and they all call, everybody drops the other d20 in the other cup, shakes it and rolls. The players uncover both the cups and tally the amount of the two dice. If any player has proficiency in Gaming set (playing cards), they add their proficiency bonus to their score. The highest score wins the hand.

Optional actions
These take place between the first and the second roll. If a player has proficiency in both the appropriate skill and Gaming set (playing cards), she rolls these checks with advantage.

Bluffing: the player uses her body language to communicate her opponents that her hand is different from what it really is. Simulate this with a roll of Charisma (Deception) or Charisma (Intimidate), against an opposed roll of Wisdom (Insight) from each other player. If the bluffing player beats more than half of her opponents, she can roll her second hand with advantage. If she beats ALL the other players, she rolls with advantage and adds her Charisma modifier to her final result.
If her check can't beat more than half the other players, nothing happens. If she loses against all the other players, she rolls her second hand with disadvantage.
Bluffing can be done only once per hand.

Cheating:

Sneak peek: the player tries to take a sneak peek at another player's cards. She rolls an opposed Dexterity (Perception) check against Wisdom (Perception) of the chosen player. If she wins the contested check, she adds her Dexterity bonus to her final score, but only against the player she cheated. If she loses the check by less than 5, she merely fails to see the hand of the opposing player; if she loses by 5 or more, she is caught in the act, and the player on the receiving hand of the bluff can call him out on this (or not, his choice). A player can attempt as many sneak peeks she wants against any players, but once she succeeds against one, she doesn't get any additional bonus against that player.

Ace in the sleeve: the player tries to palm cards, take an ace out of her sleeve, take more cards than required or any trick like this. She rolls an opposed Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check against Wisdom (Perception) or Intelligence (Sleight of Hand) of all the other players. If she beats more than half of her opponents, she rolls her second hand with advantage AND adds her Dexterity modifier to the final score. If she beats ALL the other players, she rolls with advantage, adds her Dex modifier and adds her proficiency bonus to her second hand (possibly adding it twice, if she already added it).
If her check loses against half of her opponents, she fumbles her cheating: she rolls her second hand with disadvantage, but she doesn't get caught. If she loses against all of her opponents, they catch her in the act and deal with her accordingly.

The sucker: a common trope of the Western movies is the sucker, some poor slob playing poker against a group of people that are there just to separate him from his money. This trick can be done only if there are more than two players at the table, and if two of them have agreed to dupe the sucker. If the players can arrange this against an opponent, they roll their first hand with advantage, and add the number of players involved in the trick to their final score. At the end of each hand, the sucker can roll an Intelligence check against a single Charisma (Deception) + number of participants, rolled by whomever wants to roll it, to understand he's being duped. If he succeeds, he reacts accordingly, but otherwise the game goes on.


These rules are clearly not perfect, and they don't sample out all the shades and phases of Poker, but in a pinch they give players a modicum of agency, reward their capabilities and can make for a fun experience. Again, take them with a grain of salt, and if you want to change anything, go for it.

[Amechra]

Are you married to using 5e for this? If not, there are plenty of RPGs built around letting you play in a Western.

[Sorinth]

Most of it is just skill checks. So for duels it's an initiative check to see who goes first, for horsebreaking it's a series of animal handling checks where you need to succeed say 3 times before reaching 3 failures. There are already chase rules that work fine even when mounted, just keep in mind the horse would be making the checks.

For jumping/running on top of a moving train it's probably a mix of athletics/acrobatics skill checks. I'd do something like jumping from wagon to wagon is a DC 10 Athletics check. If you fail you make a Dex saving throw to catch yourself. If you succeed you are hanging on the edge of the train and your turn immediately ends, if you fail you fall off the train. Additionally at the end of each turn where you are standing, i.e not prone, you must make a DC 15 acrobatics check. Failure means you fall prone, and if the total is 5 or less then you fall off the train.

For gambling the simplest is an opposed skill check using gaming set proficiency and presumably intelligence. But you could expand it into a series of checks/actions.
So for Poker everyone rolls a d20 in secret and adds their Int + Proficiency (If they are proficient in the game). That's the value of their hand.
In sequence everyone takes an action until everyone has either folded or taken 2 actions. The list of actions are:

Study. Make an Insight check against a player's Deception, success allows you to see what they rolled.
Bluff. Roll another d20 in secret. You reveal to the table either one of your rolls (The value of your hand doesn't change).
Raise. Everyone still in the game must ante up again or fold.
Cheat. Make a Sleight of Hand check against everyone's (Including on-lookers) passive perception. On success roll a d20 you may use that value for your hand if you want.
Fold. You drop out of the round.

[Littlemike137]

There are already some great poker ideas here but I thought I’d toss in one more: liars dice. It’s the game the pirates play in Pirates of the Caribbean, and is pretty simple to learn. Everyone gets 5 dice, and a cup, roll the dice in the cup and hide them from the other players. Then, one person starts the bidding by saying, for example, five 2s, saying that they think there are five 2s showing on all the dice under the cups. The next guy can then change the bid either by raising the number of dice, to something like eight 2s, or he can change the value of the dice, like five 4s. You have to go up, either in number or value of dice, but you can go down in one if you raise the other. When someone thinks that the bid is wrong, they call, and everyone shows their dice. If the bid was correct, the person who called the bid is forced to pay the bidder a set amount, and vice versa if the call was correct. The play then restarts. The only other rule is that 1s are wild and count towards the number of any value of dice. The upside to this method is that it only uses d6s, which your players probably already have loads of, so you don’t need anything other than some paper cups, or some other opaque receptacle.

[Sparky McDibben]

The only one I've got anything useful to say about is #1, Quickdraw Gunslinger Duels. Remember that these exist only for legal reasons--if you saw the other guy going for his gun first, you can plead self-defense and avoid a murder conviction. Accordingly there's not that much need for them in 5E, where you can realistically just absorb the first round of attacks, but if you don't want to allow that you can just use a normal "everybody declares, then everybody acts" initiative system, i.e. allow both parties to decide to attack (or ready actions to attack when attacked, which amounts to the same thing unless you're a stickler for the Extra Attack technicality which doesn't really exist anyway in a concurrent initiative system because there are no separate turns) and roll initiative if necessary.

I guess I do have something to say about Poker. (snip)

This is useful feedback - how does one make a gunslinger duel feel deadly at 20th level? I'm currently thinking about making revolvers do 1d10 + Dex damage (this isn't set in stone, but let's roll with it). A rogue using Steady Aim (TCoE) who wins initiative could potentially do 1d10 + 10d6 + 5 (5.5 + 35 + 5) = 45 points of damage. But a fighter with Action Surge could do 8*(1d10 + 5) = 84 points of damage. Unless you're shooting a wizard, that's not enough to kill a 20th level character. That's a good note to call out, Mr. Wilson. I did some digging and I wondered about using the iaijutsu mechanics from Rokugan, but that's all I've found for "fast draw" mechanics. The issue I have with the poker solution (which is a good solution - no need to reinvent the wheel) is that this is a single-player campaign, so having me play two or three hands of poker isn't going to feel tense so much as boring, I think. Still, thanks for the feedback!


I just came up, on the spur of the moment, with these poker rules, see if you like them. They haven't been playtested or anything, so take them with a grain of salt.
(snip)

So I like the "Gambling Maneuvers" here. This is good stuff. I think I might skinny some of this down (I only have one player), but it's all eminently usable. Thanks!


Are you married to using 5e for this? If not, there are plenty of RPGs built around letting you play in a Western.

Unfortunately, yes. This is a one-on-one game with my wife. She likes 5e mechanics and doesn't want to learn a whole new system, so my calls of "Let's try Deadlands!" have fallen on somewhat deaf ears. :)


Most of it is just skill checks. So for duels it's an initiative check to see who goes first, for horsebreaking it's a series of animal handling checks where you need to succeed say 3 times before reaching 3 failures. There are already chase rules that work fine even when mounted, just keep in mind the horse would be making the checks.

For jumping/running on top of a moving train it's probably a mix of athletics/acrobatics skill checks. I'd do something like jumping from wagon to wagon is a DC 10 Athletics check. If you fail you make a Dex saving throw to catch yourself. If you succeed you are hanging on the edge of the train and your turn immediately ends, if you fail you fall off the train. Additionally at the end of each turn where you are standing, i.e not prone, you must make a DC 15 acrobatics check. Failure means you fall prone, and if the total is 5 or less then you fall off the train.

For gambling the simplest is an opposed skill check using gaming set proficiency and presumably intelligence. But you could expand it into a series of checks/actions.
So for Poker everyone rolls a d20 in secret and adds their Int + Proficiency (If they are proficient in the game). That's the value of their hand.
In sequence everyone takes an action until everyone has either folded or taken 2 actions. The list of actions are:

Study. Make an Insight check against a player's Deception, success allows you to see what they rolled.
Bluff. Roll another d20 in secret. You reveal to the table either one of your rolls (The value of your hand doesn't change).
Raise. Everyone still in the game must ante up again or fold.
Cheat. Make a Sleight of Hand check against everyone's (Including on-lookers) passive perception. On success roll a d20 you may use that value for your hand if you want.
Fold. You drop out of the round.


So, this poker system is simple enough I think I can actually implement this in a one-on-one game. Thanks! What you say about the skill checks is probably true, but it also feels kind of boring? Like, breaking a horse is a process. Rolling a series of Animal Handling checks accurately models that, but it lacks drama. I'm looking for a structure; something that gives players choices and agency, something that then takes those choices and models consequences for them. It doesn't have to be big and grand and complicated (Alas, 3rd edition, I knew ye well). Maybe I'll start with something like this:


Find a horse (stealing it from a corral? In a herd? From a murdered enemy?)
Get on the horse (Lasso it - maybe a "whip" attack? - then climb on - Athletics or Acrobatics check?
Stay on the horse (Con check? Dex save?)
Calm the horse down (Animal Handling check)


Then maybe deal with fallout - if you're stealing a horse, you've got to outrun the owner. If you're getting it from a herd, you need to avoid a stampede situation, etc. But this is still just a series of rolls. I like your ideas about multiple failure states, though. That's gold - what if I let even failures in the initial checks succeed at a cost - you find a ****ty horse, or it takes you ages to get on the horse, or you make a lot of noise - but also it imposes a penalty to the "Stay on the Horse" check? So therefore, making choices to give yourself advantage or even avoid rolling entirely becomes imperative. OK, this is something I can work with. Thanks for the inspiration, Sorinth!


There are already some great poker ideas here but I thought I’d toss in one more: liars dice. (snip)

Yep, love that game in Red Dead Redemption. Problem is it takes up a ton of table time and my player got confused by the rules. But it's a good call and I think I'll try to simplify with some game mechanics.