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Cyclone231
2007-11-05, 01:51 PM
The title says it all: how do you make an effective character who fights unarmed and only lightly armored?

Esp. an effective character who remains effective during both the lower and higher levels?

EDIT: And isn't an arcane caster, obviously.

VerdugoExplode
2007-11-05, 01:56 PM
1 word, Swordsage.

More words, the use of maneuvers means that while a weapon might be beneficial it isn't always necessary as many maneuvers simply add damage to make a normally ho-hum unarmed attack something to be feared, the use of the unarmed combat feat in the book of nine swords means you will at least be doing a decent amount of damage with said fists as well as the usual magic items that can be obtained to do the same.

SoD
2007-11-05, 01:57 PM
Easy-monk, max dex. That's what I'd suggest for it, and, in this case, minimal armour=no armour.

Arakune
2007-11-05, 01:59 PM
Badly. Sorry, this game are not made for martial artist style warriors unless you buy ToB.

cupkeyk
2007-11-05, 02:04 PM
Monk 4 Half Orc Paragon 3 Fighter 1 Bear warrior 5 Warshaper 4 War Hulk 3

They can't hit you if they are all dead.

PlatinumJester
2007-11-05, 02:04 PM
Maybe be a Warforged and take Mithral Body feat.

playswithfire
2007-11-05, 02:12 PM
monk, swordsage, several prestige classes (fist of the forest, most of the ones that stack with monk abilities, drunken master, others I can't think of right now; oh, or you can use Monastic Training and Tashalatora with War Mind)

Monk 6/War Mind 5 is pretty fun;
greater flurry (9/9/9/4) to two adjacent enemies, but using the two feats to do it is a bit unpleasant (and may get more complicated to have the Know(psionics) and power points, but that's doable)

skywalker
2007-11-05, 05:01 PM
monk, swordsage, several prestige classes (fist of the forest, most of the ones that stack with monk abilities, drunken master, others I can't think of right now; oh, or you can use Monastic Training and Tashalatora with War Mind)

Monk 6/War Mind 5 is pretty fun;
greater flurry (9/9/9/4) to two adjacent enemies, but using the two feats to do it is a bit unpleasant (and may get more complicated to have the Know(psionics) and power points, but that's doable)

Fist of the Forest just turns you into a slutty elf(have you seen the picture next to the class description?!).

I recommend, as others, swordsage. There's a variant in the Tome of Battle that suggests giving the swordsage the monk's unarmed strike progression, but taking his light armor proficiency. I recommend against this variant, because it puts you right back in the MAD quandry the monk was in in the first place(and as a swordsage, you're already treading dangerously close to MAD).

New question: What do you consider "minimal" armor?

Frosty
2007-11-05, 05:05 PM
Where is Fist of the Forest from? and hey, maybe the pic goes with the whole "minimal armor" thing.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-11-05, 05:11 PM
The title says it all: how do you make an effective character who fights unarmed and only lightly armored?

Esp. an effective character who remains effective during both the lower and higher levels?

EDIT: And isn't an arcane caster, obviously.

Swordsage. Use the Unarmed Swordsage progression. Or use a non-arcane caster (divine, psionic, artificer... take your pick). Done and done.

Tengu
2007-11-05, 05:12 PM
Apart from the already mentioned Unarmed Swordsage variant, you can also be a Psychic Warrior who uses Claws of the Beast (and maybe Bite of the Wolf too) and the Psionic Fist feat tree for offense, and Inertial Armor (and maybe Force Screen) for defense - it's all in the SRD, too. Such a character would be pretty powerful, and mostly independent from any equipment.

Seffbasilisk
2007-11-05, 05:17 PM
Ninja 2/Rogue X/Invisible Blade 5.

Ask your DM to ignore the errata, and see if you can get Class Defense Bonus varient. Perhaps a homebrew feat allowing sudden strike and sneak attack progression to stack rogue and ninja levels for.

Pironious
2007-11-05, 05:19 PM
Badly. Sorry, this game are not made for martial artist style warriors unless you buy ToB.

Or Book of Exalted Deeds :smallwink: Mmm... Vow of Poverty.


Perhaps a homebrew feat allowing sudden strike and sneak attack progression to stack rogue and ninja levels for.

Wait.. what? They naturally stack. Stacking rogue and ninja levels to both makes something ridiculously broken. A level 20 character with +20d6 damage? :smallconfused:

Tengu
2007-11-05, 05:40 PM
Or Book of Exalted Deeds :smallwink: Mmm... Vow of Poverty.
Unless your DM thinks that low-magic is hip and edgy and is stingy on the loot, VoP is actually weaker than magic items of the corresponding WBL, apart from very low levels.



Wait.. what? They naturally stack. Stacking rogue and ninja levels to both makes something ridiculously broken. A level 20 character with +20d6 damage? :smallconfused:

Not as broken as a Leap Attack/Shock Trooper Frenzied Berserker charger with pounce. Or stuff full casters that can do for at least 5 levels before.

skywalker
2007-11-05, 05:42 PM
Or Book of Exalted Deeds :smallwink: Mmm... Vow of Poverty.

Vow of Poverty is a bad choice if you're trying to do combat. Magic bonuses to AC are good.



Wait.. what? They naturally stack. Stacking rogue and ninja levels to both makes something ridiculously broken. A level 20 character with +20d6 damage? :smallconfused:

A 20th level wizard does this much with a delayed blast fireball, or cone of cold, etc. It's not about the dice, it's about the static damage.

Fist of the Forest is in Complete Champion.

In my opinion, you should play a normal swordsage with Improved Unarmed Strike and Superior Unarmed Strike, or see about a way to get the monk's damage progression without losing your armor proficiency, and wear a mithral chain shirt. That's pretty minimal, IMO. But having armor you can enchant is cheaper than having to boost your wis all the time. On the other hand, you could take insightful strike from Book of Exalted Deeds to reduce your strength dependence somewhat and give you another reason to focus on wisdom.

That's just my two cents tho, I'm a novice optimizer and rules lawyer. I just know where everything is. Oh, I've also played a swordsage, and I can attest, they are really fun.

EDIT: Somewhat ninja-ed by Tengu, the things we both said, he said better.

Temp
2007-11-05, 05:53 PM
Or Book of Exalted Deeds Mmm... Vow of Poverty.
Don't let the big list of stuff fool you, VoP's rubbish.

Here's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59707) the most civil and rational thread on the subject I could find (many aren't for some reason). Realize this thread is long dead, so don't add anything to it.

mostlyharmful
2007-11-05, 05:59 PM
werewolf/Barb2/Warshaper4/Thayan Gladiator x. Not the most powerful of builds but lots of fun in a ragin' crazy off the wall kinda way.

Thinker
2007-11-05, 06:45 PM
Wait.. what? They naturally stack. Stacking rogue and ninja levels to both makes something ridiculously broken. A level 20 character with +20d6 damage? :smallconfused:

3.5 is the average amount of damage on a d6. 20 * 3.5 = 70 damage per attack against a flatfooted opponent. That doesn't seem incredibly impressive.

Goumindong
2007-11-05, 06:58 PM
High dex, improved unarmed strike duskblade would also work. Run him into Jade Phenoix Mage for more fun.

Mr. Moogle
2007-11-05, 07:05 PM
Viva La Monk

deadseashoals
2007-11-05, 07:18 PM
Druid 20 :smallwink:

Dode
2007-11-05, 08:05 PM
Rogue
Druid
Swordsage
Duskblade

Townopolis
2007-11-05, 08:37 PM
Some people have suggested a swordsage but not taking the unarmed variant. Instead taking improved unarmed strike and greater unarmed strike and keeping your armor proficiency.

Wouldn't it be more economical to take the variant and take light armor proficiency as a feat? Net gain of 1 feat and higher damage if you're medium.

Temp
2007-11-05, 08:40 PM
Wouldn't it be more economical to take the variant and take light armor proficiency as a feat? Net gain of 1 feat and higher damage if you're medium.More economical? Yes. More likely to be approved by the DM? No.

kemmotar
2007-11-05, 08:51 PM
a monk/swordsage build is best i think. Currently my level 11 char has 52 ac and dishes out almost as much damage as the barbarian:smalltongue: (he is an uber charger too!!)

Anyway, you max out dexterity and wisdom. At level 2 swordsage you get wis to ac(unnamed bonus hurray!stacks with monk bonus) thus ac to wisdom twice + dexterity. Bracers of armor and necklace of natural armor. Then you get something that increases your attack roll. Also i recommend goliath as race (one size larger without penalties, woot!) superior unarmed strike and improved natural attack, now you increase your damage die three times. Monk's belt for added goodness. Also i mainly use burning blade maneuver for + damage. Get +5 gloves to enhance your attack roll(no other enhancements needed, unless you can afford them...teehee!) weapon focus(unarmed) choose as your discipline shadow hand(for another stackable +1) and choose some other shadow hand feats for + attack roll and damage. If you have any leftovers buy a cloak of resistance. Now you have riddiculous AC, saves a pretty good attack roll and lots of damage. Oh and maybe add feral template for +wis, str and +6 natural armor and save the money for the necklace to buy deflection!woots!

GeneralTacticus
2007-11-05, 10:16 PM
Regarding the Unarmed Swordsage - if you can afford a Mithral chain shirt from the start, you can laugh off the lack of armour proficiency, because it has ACP 0. Given that a Swordsage shouldn't be wearing any armour above light in any case, you're not really losing anything.

You're really only in trouble if you have to start at level 1, since you'll have neither armour nor a Wisdom bonus to AC. Higher than that, you should be fine. Hell, if you have a couple of spare feats after taking Improved Unarmed Strike and Adaptive Style, you can pick up Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade, use Dexterity for hit and damage on your unarmed strikes, and dump Strength altogether.

Jack Mann
2007-11-05, 10:29 PM
Fist of the Forest just turns you into a slutty elf(have you seen the picture next to the class description?!).

I recommend, as others, swordsage. There's a variant in the Tome of Battle that suggests giving the swordsage the monk's unarmed strike progression, but taking his light armor proficiency. I recommend against this variant, because it puts you right back in the MAD quandry the monk was in in the first place(and as a swordsage, you're already treading dangerously close to MAD).

New question: What do you consider "minimal" armor?

Unarmed swordsage still isn't quite as MAD as the monk. They can get away with lower strength, thanks to shadow blade and various maneuvers. And has been stated, you can still use a mithral chain shirt once it becomes available, since it has no armor check penalty.

Tengu
2007-11-05, 11:18 PM
Anyway, you max out dexterity and wisdom. At level 2 swordsage you get wis to ac(unnamed bonus hurray!stacks with monk bonus) thus ac to wisdom twice + dexterity.

I don't think if those are supposed to stack.

Goumindong
2007-11-05, 11:31 PM
Regarding the Unarmed Swordsage - if you can afford a Mithral chain shirt from the start, you can laugh off the lack of armour proficiency, because it has ACP 0. Given that a Swordsage shouldn't be wearing any armour above light in any case, you're not really losing anything.

You're really only in trouble if you have to start at level 1, since you'll have neither armour nor a Wisdom bonus to AC. Higher than that, you should be fine. Hell, if you have a couple of spare feats after taking Improved Unarmed Strike and Adaptive Style, you can pick up Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade, use Dexterity for hit and damage on your unarmed strikes, and dump Strength altogether.

Alternatly you can run weapon finesse and shadow blade on a monk as well, it just takes a bit longer to achieve it.

GeneralTacticus
2007-11-05, 11:44 PM
Well, yeah, you can do it, if you're prepared to spend two feats on Martial Study and Martial Stance so that you can have a Shadow Hand stance in the first place. This will take you exactly as long as it will to get a Swordsage there (except that a Swordsage has the option of delaying Adaptive Style if he wants to... or, hell, he can get by on manoeuvres for his damage until level 6), and the Swordsage will still be vastly more effective.

MisterSaturnine
2007-11-06, 12:03 AM
Hmm...if you had a Psychic Warrior with 18 Dex and 18 Wis, who took a one level dip into Monk and got Force Screen and Inertial Armor, that's an AC of 26 at 3rd level, unarmored.

Mostly saying this to myself--Tengu's basically said it already. Just putting the numbers together, I guess.

Cruiser1
2007-11-06, 01:35 AM
Where is Fist of the Forest from? and hey, maybe the pic goes with the whole "minimal armor" thing.
Fist of the Forest is from Complete Champion. As for its associated picture, you just have to decide if you want to look like this: :smallwink:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/completechampion_gallery/104775.jpg

WhiteHarness
2007-11-06, 01:43 PM
Why would you want to make an unarmoured character? That kind of thing is badly overdone and cliched nowadays anyway. Heavy armour is the New Hotness!