Is there a reason why the new Summon spells aren't core Sorcerer spells?

[Mr Adventurer]

So far as I can tell, none of the new Summon spells are on the Sorcerer spell list. A couple of them are on the subclass lists for the new subclasses in that book, but that's it. Is there a reason for this?

[jojosskul]

My guess is that WoTC considers a lack of summon spells part of the "class identity" of the Sorcerer. Before Tasha's they had none, and even though they had a couple of the new ones in UA it looks like they decided to not pull the trigger and make them part of the core sorcerer list.

I somewhat understand it, for a Sorcerer you're supposed to be pulling your power from within yourself. For the new subclasses, drawing on their inner wells of power to create Abberations or Constructs from nothing makes sense. The only other Sorcerer that gets something like a "summon" is shadow with the Hound of Ill Omen, and you could argue that they construct it using the shadow stuff that has suffused their soul/being.

And of course Divine Soul pseudo gets the Celestial Summon as an option, and already had the other options from the Cleric list. The logic behind that is likely that they pull on divine power within themselves, and the creatures they summon respond to that divine power no matter the source.

So I think we'll still see it pop up on class lists going forward, but given the lack of even Find Familiar on the core list I don't see Sorcerer getting a full summon on their core list anytime soon.

[Sception]

yeah, it seems to be a thematic thing, though if you go back and add subclass spell lists to the existing sorcerer subclasses, I could definitely see one or two of these summon spells showing up there. Summon Shadowspawn for shadow sorcerer at least.

[jojosskul]

yeah, it seems to be a thematic thing, though if you go back and add subclass spell lists to the existing sorcerer subclasses, I could definitely see one or two of these summon spells showing up there. Summon Shadowspawn for shadow sorcerer at least.

Absolutely. That and Summon Elemental limited to the Air and Water choices for Storm Sorcerer. Don't think any of the new summon spells thematically fit Dragon or Wild though.

[Sception]

Eh, I could see summon elemental working for dragon as an extension of the elemental subtheme of the class, since dragon sorcerer is probably the closest we'll get to a general elementalist sorcerer subclass. Or maybe not. Honestly either way on that one, imo.

[KorvinStarmast]

Summon Shadowspawn for shadow sorcerer at least. For sure. :smallsmile:

Summon Elemental limited to the Air and Water choices for Storm Sorcerer. Brilliant idea, concur. :smallsmile:

[RSP]

Possibly also due to Extended Metamagic: in a sense, you get double the summons for 1 SP; if the devs believe summons are significantly limited by the hour duration, rather than just HPs/Conc.

Though, I’ll add the prior posts linking it to flavor are just as likely, if not more so, the reason.

[Monster Manuel]

Could a sorcerer Twin one of the new summoning spells? How are they worded in terms of target? I'm away from book at the moment, but I guess, in theory, they only effect a single target (the creature summoned). I'm sure it doesn't work this way, but if it did, that would explain why they don't want Sorcerers casting them...

[Amdy_vill]

Sorcerer "Aren't Summoners" by WotC. Summoning is part of the identity of Druids, wizards, and some bards, warlocks, and clerics. it's just part of the design language of 5e. there is a section of the dmg talking about how the spell lists are completely changeable if you don't like things.

[RogueJK]

Could a sorcerer Twin one of the new summoning spells?

No. Twinned Spell requires a spell that targets 1 creature. Summoning spells don't target a creature. They target a point in space.

[MrCharlie]

No. Twinned Spell requires a spell that targets 1 creature. Summoning spells don't target a creature. They target a point in space.
Same reason you can't twin the magic weapon buff spell lines (elemental, magic, holy)-they target one object, but objects aren't creatures.

[Darthnazrael]

I could also see Summon Fey for Wild Magic.

[dreast]

Absolutely. That and Summon Elemental limited to the Air and Water choices for Storm Sorcerer. Don't think any of the new summon spells thematically fit Dragon or Wild though.

I would move mountains to make my DM let me summon a slaad with my wild sorcerer. Mind, he gets his 3 fiend warlock levels from Chourst, so...

[MaxWilson]

I would move mountains to make my DM let me summon a slaad with my wild sorcerer. Mind, he gets his 3 fiend warlock levels from Chourst, so...

You got me to google "Chourst", which reminds me how much more I like Exploring Eberron's take on what it means for Slaad to be Chaotic Neutral than I do the LOLRandom Chaotic Neutral described on the Greyhawk Wiki entry for Chourst: https://greyhawkonline.com/greyhawkwiki/index.php?title=Chourst They're still chaotic, arguably insane, and often dangerous to be around, but they're distinctly different from Chaotic Evil per se and they are believable potential allies for the PCs.

I love the continuously-changing governments and the occasional excessive zeal for evangelizing the perfection of the Slaad form by "altruistically" spreading Chaos Phage to the whole universe... so much potential for amusing-to-the-evil-DM drama as previously-introduced Slaad NPCs are re-cast with new motivations and social positions in each new regime as it comes along. E.g. the helpful paladin-ish Grey Slaad from the Anti-Tyranny League who helped the PCs defeat a mind flayer incursion is now a crusader for The Glorious Union of Perfected Flesh earnestly trying to convert them into beautiful Slaads like himself via Chaos Phage, for their own good of course...

[Gyor]

My guess is that WoTC considers a lack of summon spells part of the "class identity" of the Sorcerer. Before Tasha's they had none, and even though they had a couple of the new ones in UA it looks like they decided to not pull the trigger and make them part of the core sorcerer list.

I somewhat understand it, for a Sorcerer you're supposed to be pulling your power from within yourself. For the new subclasses, drawing on their inner wells of power to create Abberations or Constructs from nothing makes sense. The only other Sorcerer that gets something like a "summon" is shadow with the Hound of Ill Omen, and you could argue that they construct it using the shadow stuff that has suffused their soul/being.

And of course Divine Soul pseudo gets the Celestial Summon as an option, and already had the other options from the Cleric list. The logic behind that is likely that they pull on divine power within themselves, and the creatures they summon respond to that divine power no matter the source.

So I think we'll still see it pop up on class lists going forward, but given the lack of even Find Familiar on the core list I don't see Sorcerer getting a full summon on their core list anytime soon.

I like the idea that creatures that the Sorcerer summons ARE an avatar of their Sorcerer spark, so a Divine Soul Sorcerer casting Summon Celestial is just manifesting their divine sorcerer spark, the spark itself is the "Spirit". This doesn't apply to Gate or Planar Ally, which summon a preexisting creature, not summon a "spirit" into material form.

[JackPhoenix]

I like the idea that creatures that the Sorcerer summons ARE an avatar of their Sorcerer spark, so a Divine Soul Sorcerer casting Summon Celestial is just manifesting their divine sorcerer spark, the spark itself is the "Spirit". This doesn't apply to Gate or Planar Ally, which summon a preexisting creature, not summon a "spirit" into material form.

Keith Baker mentioned something similar in Exploring Eberron. Faithful of the Blood of Vol... clerics too, but DS sorcerer is a great fit for the religion... don't interact with extraplanar creatures and draw their power from within themselves. Their summoned creatures originate from their "divine spark" (as their faith dictates) rather than being summoned (or sent by a god, in the case of Planar Ally) from different plane.

[Gyor]

Keith Baker mentioned something similar in Exploring Eberron. Faithful of the Blood of Vol... clerics too, but DS sorcerer is a great fit for the religion... don't interact with extraplanar creatures and draw their power from within themselves. Their summoned creatures originate from their "divine spark" (as their faith dictates) rather than being summoned (or sent by a god, in the case of Planar Ally) from different plane.

Perfect I love that.