Looking for feedback on Overland Travel / Exploration rules

[ZZTRaider]

Hi everyone.

Hoping for some feedback on some overland travel and exploration rules I've been working on, including some changes to rests. In particular, I want to make sure that the rules make sense, seem balanced (particularly with DCs), and seem like a reasonably enjoyable framework for a hexcrawl and kingdom building campaign.

For context, these rules will be paired with some changes to some class features and backgrounds (like Ranger's Natural Explorer and the Outlander feature) so that all meshes a bit better, but I want to make sure the base rules are solid before I go tweaking that stuff.

I haven't done a pass to try to make sure everything matches the way official 5e content words things, but if someone feels so inclined to point out issues with that, feel free.

Here's the Google Doc (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Lg9VorV6sN98t-j4jwSOp4RwWRCJthxcUnmIVWB3YXA/edit?usp=sharing). Thanks!

[Emongnome777]

Full disclosure, I read some, skimmed some. I do like seeing the "exploration pillar" fleshed out, there isn't enough in the rules. And I like how it's laid out overall, but a few things caught my eye:

It's possible to get lost on a highway or road? Even moving pretty fast, seems these should be automatic.
Is "Fisherman's Kit" and "Field Dressing Kit" (and others I've missed) new tools that require proficiency?
It does get a little cumbersome to wade through the tables to see how many fish you caught / people you feed / how long your food lasts. There's verisimilitude, then there's being a little over the top. And a single casting of Goodberry removes all these table rolls.
You seem to have changed the rest rules, extending the short and long rest durations, akin to the gritty variant in the DMG. I'm not a fan, and I would think new rules creation would use the "standard" rules, and add support for the variant rules separately for those that prefer that.
If you're modifying how the outlander feature and ranger class features work, I'd like to see how they change to support these rules.

Guess it was mostly negative, but a great deal is quite useful. I like the bulk of the movement rules. I know this isn't about combat, but adding in rules / tables (yeah, more tables) to include encounters that aren't necessarily combat (wild animals, swarms of insects, localized natural phenomena, etc.) could create exciting events during the exploration.

[ZZTRaider]

Full disclosure, I read some, skimmed some. I do like seeing the "exploration pillar" fleshed out, there isn't enough in the rules. And I like how it's laid out overall, but a few things caught my eye:
Hey, no worries, it's definitely a lot of stuff, so I can't blame you for skimming. Just glad for feedback at all.


It's possible to get lost on a highway or road? Even moving pretty fast, seems these should be automatic.
I could probably use a section about how getting lost works in those sorts of cases. Highways, it should definitely be trivial to follow the highway until it ends (which may well reorient you), but a failed Navigation check might mean you lose track of things like, "Is this where we're supposed to leave the road to get to the Keep we're trying to visit?" or "How far have we traveled? How much further is our destination on this road?". On roads, which I'm envisioning as dirt, you might have hit a patch in particularly poor repair and lost track of which bit was actually the road, and which bit was a side trail. Or maybe you just took the wrong fork or made a wrong turn at a crossroad.

That said, the intent is that it should be relatively rare to get completely lost on a highway or road unless you're moving quickly in poor conditions.


Is "Fisherman's Kit" and "Field Dressing Kit" (and others I've missed) new tools that require proficiency?
They are new tools, yeah. Just having the Fisherman's Kit is enough to make a fishing roll, though you do need proficiency to get the increased yield from the net. Field Dressing Kit isn't terribly useful without proficiency, though. The campaign I'm planning to use this in has the option for players to take plenty of downtime, so they'll have the chance to seek training in extra tools.


It does get a little cumbersome to wade through the tables to see how many fish you caught / people you feed / how long your food lasts. There's verisimilitude, then there's being a little over the top. And a single casting of Goodberry removes all these table rolls.
That's totally fair, it may be too much. My hope was mostly to get some sense differentiation between the options, both in terms of what skills are supported and what the results are. I think I actually lost a bit of that in simplifying down to what it is now. Hunting is the worst offender here... I'll have to think on how to cut the table and just reduce it to something you can remember.

I'm definitely aware of the Goodberry problem. Back in Pathfinder (and presumably 3.5e), it enhanced freshly picked berries, while in 5e, it just creates them from nothing. It's still a Transmutation spell, though, so that doesn't make any sense. My plan is to change it back to requiring freshly picked berries, which you can acquire on any successful Foraging check, as long as the terrain makes sense for you to find berries. So if you are willing to spend the spell slot, a single turn spent Foraging should cover the party for a day, freeing up actions for other things you might want to do.

I guess the real question is, from your reading, does it feel valuable to potentially spend resources to do things other than obtain food?


You seem to have changed the rest rules, extending the short and long rest durations, akin to the gritty variant in the DMG. I'm not a fan, and I would think new rules creation would use the "standard" rules, and add support for the variant rules separately for those that prefer that.
Fair enough, that section may not be for everyone. In my case, I have a specific campaign I'm writing this for, so I'm not terribly concerned about listing parts as optional or variants. Primary gameplay is going to be going out into unknown territory that isn't mapped or inhabited by anyone the party is aware of (until they meet some of the local populace and potentially start trading with them for information). I'm trying to essentially slow down the "encounter day" to match what's realistically going to be about 1 encounter per in game day, to limit novaing every encounter and allow short rest classes an opportunity to shine. I've played in this sort of campaign before, and it definitely gets a little screwy when you can reasonably bet that there won't be any more encounters until you can recover all your resources, so there's no reason not to blow all of your highest level spells to wreck everything.

Interestingly, the Adventures in Middle Earth supplements for 5e don't actually allow a long rest at all when in the wild. I didn't want to go quite that far with it, so I added in the scaling bit based on the relative safety of the area.


If you're modifying how the outlander feature and ranger class features work, I'd like to see how they change to support these rules.
Not starting on those sorts of changes until I'm pretty sure I've mostly got these basic mechanics down, but I can share the direction I'm thinking for those.

For Outlander, my rough idea is to allow the Gather Food action as bonus action. Like in combat, you only get one bonus action per turn, but it's in addition to your normal action. Essentially, you're good enough at it that you can do it while doing something else. Maybe increase the yield a bit, too?

For Ranger, I think the two big things are getting Navigate as a bonus action very early, and then potentially getting an entire second action around 10 or 11. That may need to be limited to once per day or something. Probably also pull a bit from Pathfinder/3.5e and give them bonuses to tracking, like advantage while at a slow pace, ignore the normal disadvantage at a normal pace, and then allow tracking at disadvantage at a fast pace.

Basically, the idea is to remove the bits where the PHB makes it so you outright ignore some aspect of exploration and overland movement, then replace them with something that makes you better at it while still engaging with the system. That probably means giving more smaller things. If you've got any neat ideas based on what you've read, I'd love to hear them.


Guess it was mostly negative, but a great deal is quite useful. I like the bulk of the movement rules. I know this isn't about combat, but adding in rules / tables (yeah, more tables) to include encounters that aren't necessarily combat (wild animals, swarms of insects, localized natural phenomena, etc.) could create exciting events during the exploration.
All feedback is helpful, I think, so thanks! Commenting on the bit you had a negative reaction to lets me know where things might chafe for my players, so I can try to adjust that before things start.

My plan is for each hex to have an encounter table, which will include the obvious creatures (with a chance for just finding tracks or other evidence of their presence, or stumbling across their lair), but also natural hazards appropriate for the terrain. I also want to work out something based on the old reaction rolls from early editions of D&D, so not every encounter necessarily ends up meaning combat. A similar table of ephemeral super low stakes stuff could be interesting, too. An obvious thing would be an entry where you accidentally put your bedroll on an ant hill that you missed, and now you're a little uncomfortable and a bunch of your stuff is covered in ants. I'd want to add some positive stuff like that, too, though, and I'm not immediately coming up with something. I'll have to think on it more.

[Emongnome777]

ok, I've read through it some more. Let me list some observations for the Movement section here.

You reference bonus actions under "The overland turn" and "actions", but I don't see any specific activities that say they can be done as a bonus action under their listing anywhere in the document.

Under Navigation: Whenever you take the Travel or Explore movement action, the group must make a Navigation (check?) to avoid becoming lost. Each hex will have a Navigation DC determined by the terrain, local conditions, and movement pace. If no characters take the Navigate action, the DM rolls a flat 1d20 against the DC.
What kind of check is this? You have tables to calculate the DC, but nothing about what ability scores / skill bonuses / tool proficiencies you get to use here.
What are the rewards for a successful check / consequences of a failed check? Do you make a check every turn? Does this matter if you are exploring a hex (since you basically learn the layout after 24 miles in the hex)? So after 24 hours of being lost in a hex, do you "learn" the terrain and can continue?
Consider removing the pace from the Navigation DC modifiers from the table. They are in the text below and should modify the proficiency check instead of the DC (IMO). Also, since they are +/- 4, consider advantage / disadvantage, as it's frequently used in 5e.

Since highway, road and trail are considered terrains, I would've assumed all the others are "Trackless", so the modifier seems out of place. Consider making the abundance of highways and roads as modifiers to the terrain, perhaps? I'd think frozen tundra would have a higher DC since I envision it as being fairly unremarkable and hard to identify landmarks to keep from getting lost.

The navigation tables otherwise looked fine.

The travel speeds look fine as well, though crossing a river would slow me down more than 3/4 rate. A creek or stream? Yeah, but a "river" would require a boat or make it 1/2 (consistent with swim rules).

Forced march and movement actions look fine.

I'm skipping ahead, but regarding the rest variant, my issues with gritty realism came about in the context of a dungeon crawl, where there's the typical 4-6 daily combat encounters. Overland travel (with 1-2 encounters per day max) totally makes sense combined with the rest variants you proposed.

I'll post on the other sections later.

[ZZTRaider]

Thanks for the extra feedback! Sorry for the delay in response -- I've been dealing with a failing hard drive this weekend.


You reference bonus actions under "The overland turn" and "actions", but I don't see any specific activities that say they can be done as a bonus action under their listing anywhere in the document.
Yep. As mentioned in my previous post, the idea is that some backgrounds and classes will get the ability to perform some of the listed actions as bonus actions, but nothing is a bonus action by default.


Under Navigation: Whenever you take the Travel or Explore movement action, the group must make a Navigation (check?) to avoid becoming lost. Each hex will have a Navigation DC determined by the terrain, local conditions, and movement pace. If no characters take the Navigate action, the DM rolls a flat 1d20 against the DC.
What kind of check is this? You have tables to calculate the DC, but nothing about what ability scores / skill bonuses / tool proficiencies you get to use here.
Good catch. Text fixed up to say:
"Whenever you take the Travel or Explore movement actions, the group must make a Navigation check to avoid becoming lost. This is a Wisdom (Survival) check taken as part of the Navigate action, as described in the Actions While Moving section. Each hex will have a Navigation DC determined by the terrain, local conditions, and movement pace. If no characters take the Navigate action, the DM rolls a flat 1d20 against the DC."


What are the rewards for a successful check / consequences of a failed check? Do you make a check every turn? Does this matter if you are exploring a hex (since you basically learn the layout after 24 miles in the hex)? So after 24 hours of being lost in a hex, do you "learn" the terrain and can continue?
Won't get to it tonight, but I've written down that I need to add a section about what it means to get lost.


Consider removing the pace from the Navigation DC modifiers from the table. They are in the text below and should modify the proficiency check instead of the DC (IMO). Also, since they are +/- 4, consider advantage / disadvantage, as it's frequently used in 5e.
Thought about it, but I think that makes the table less useful as a quick reference without them, and I don't want people to have to read the table to understand the full effects of each pace. I think there's a gain in usability through the duplication.

Avoiding advantage/disadvantage here was also a very intentional choice, as it provides the same effect without negating the potential for abilities or circumstances that grant them. I suppose that does make it a bit less 5e-like, but I'm fine with it. I should probably add a Help action, though.


Since highway, road and trail are considered terrains, I would've assumed all the others are "Trackless", so the modifier seems out of place. Consider making the abundance of highways and roads as modifiers to the terrain, perhaps? I'd think frozen tundra would have a higher DC since I envision it as being fairly unremarkable and hard to identify landmarks to keep from getting lost.
Went back and clarified that my intent is those terrain DCs are for following a trail, road, or highway, and "trackless" means the hex is devoid of manmade trails of any sort. (Even if you're cutting across roads instead of following them, they can be useful for orienting yourself.)

Fair thought on Tundra. Bumped the DC up to 12.


The travel speeds look fine as well, though crossing a river would slow me down more than 3/4 rate. A creek or stream? Yeah, but a "river" would require a boat or make it 1/2 (consistent with swim rules).
I guess my thinking is that you're probably not taking the full 4 hours of a turn just to cross the river, so it averages out to 3/4 for the turn. Though I think it would be a very reasonable ruling that if the hex has a lot of rivers to cross, it may slow them down more considerably. And of course, a large enough river might outright require a boat.


I'm skipping ahead, but regarding the rest variant, my issues with gritty realism came about in the context of a dungeon crawl, where there's the typical 4-6 daily combat encounters. Overland travel (with 1-2 encounters per day max) totally makes sense combined with the rest variants you proposed.
Cool, I 'm glad you think it's sensible given the intended use.

[Emongnome777]

Sorry to hear your computer is giving you such a hard time. Please don't report me. :smalltongue:

On to actions!

Follow the Expert:
This seems like this is a general rule (does this apply to things below like hunting or foraging?) that maybe should be at the front. As for the Strength (Athletics) seems like it should be part of the movement section (traversing an area that requires climbing). So you have to expend your action to climb or equivalent?

Something else I noticed here, if you aren't proficient, but get help from someone proficient, you get a bigger bonus to your check than the one who's proficient. Seems off.

Gather Food:
This is a little confusing. Foraging and hunting seem like they should be under "Actions while Moving" and Fishing should be under "Actions while Camping". I assume you placed all the food gathering under its own header to have them all together, but for me, I could've followed it better if actions that take place as part of certain moves or during camping were grouped accordingly.

It would be easier for me to follow if the fishing yield was in "x creatures fed per day" instead of fish. I'd remove the part about the net, as that seems like it's included in the Fisherman's Kit.

Under foraging notes, does site mean hex? I'd assume if you were in a hex camping, you could get more food than that, but foraging is very dependent on the terrain. Maybe drop the penalty if you've explored the whole hex, or at least make it progress -1 every time you forage in that hex.

The hunting results table is way over-complicated. It doesn't need to be there, just make a roll for creatures fed and double it if you have a field dressing kit.

Avoid Notice:
Can you do Follow the Expert here?
I'd lay out what things can be group skill checks and what needs to be individual skill checks. I'd same most everything can be group skill checks just to simplify.

This is all I have time for, I'll get back on it later.

[ZZTRaider]

Sorry to hear your computer is giving you such a hard time. Please don't report me.
It was a bit of a pain, but everything appears to be in a solid state now.


Follow the Expert:
This seems like this is a general rule (does this apply to things below like hunting or foraging?) that maybe should be at the front. As for the Strength (Athletics) seems like it should be part of the movement section (traversing an area that requires climbing). So you have to expend your action to climb or equivalent?

Something else I noticed here, if you aren't proficient, but get help from someone proficient, you get a bigger bonus to your check than the one who's proficient. Seems off.

It's somewhat general, but still an action. I don't think I can really make it more up front without separating it from the actions. Did a bit of rewording there to try and make it read clearer that the climbing example does not take an action itself. The intent is essentially that some areas may need some skill check as part of normal movement (such as particularly difficult mountains), and this gives a way for characters that aren't great at that to get some help. Same for Avoid Notice.

As far as the bonus goes, I think that's a fair criticism. I wanted it to be useful even if you're already proficient, but this may well be too much. Changed it to simply give you advantage, as per the basic Help action.

You did make me put in some thought about using it with Gather Food, though, and I think it's pretty weird in that case. I looked over the actions again, and I think Avoid Notice is probably the only action that really makes a ton of sense here, so I've limited this to movement and Avoid Notice, and added a new Help action where you give the "lead" character advantage instead.


Gather Food:
This is a little confusing. Foraging and hunting seem like they should be under "Actions while Moving" and Fishing should be under "Actions while Camping". I assume you placed all the food gathering under its own header to have them all together, but for me, I could've followed it better if actions that take place as part of certain moves or during camping were grouped accordingly.

It would be easier for me to follow if the fishing yield was in "x creatures fed per day" instead of fish. I'd remove the part about the net, as that seems like it's included in the Fisherman's Kit.

Under foraging notes, does site mean hex? I'd assume if you were in a hex camping, you could get more food than that, but foraging is very dependent on the terrain. Maybe drop the penalty if you've explored the whole hex, or at least make it progress -1 every time you forage in that hex.

The hunting results table is way over-complicated. It doesn't need to be there, just make a roll for creatures fed and double it if you have a field dressing kit.

It's a little weird to split up without having to repeat the DC table. Notably, Hunting can be performed whether you're moving or camping.

I changed the wording of Fishing, as suggested.

For Foraging, I literally mean a camp site. A hex is nearly 125 square miles, which is a huge area. But, if you're camping in the same spot for a several days (while taking a rest, for example), you're going to exhaust what's close by pretty quickly. Of course, Hunting and Fishing don't tend to have this problem. Changed the wording to "While Camping, you take a -5 penalty for each time someone in the group Forages at the same site within a week. Traveling to another location, even within the same hex, resets this penalty." Hopefully that'll make it more clear.

Agreed, the Hunting results table is too much. I don't mind a little complexity, but needing to refer to a table just seems like unnecessary difficulty. I still want to make Hunting a bit different, though, and my intent was to give it a small chance of significantly higher yields than other methods. I've gone ahead and removed the table in favor of "exploding" d4s, limited to one explosion for every 5 you exceed the DC. As suggested, Field Dressing Kit allows you to double your yield. What are your thoughts on that?


Avoid Notice:
Can you do Follow the Expert here?
I'd lay out what things can be group skill checks and what needs to be individual skill checks. I'd same most everything can be group skill checks just to simplify.

Yep, Avoid Notice is specifically something you can Follow the Expert with. This is a group check (and Avoid Notice fails if not everyone in the group is doing it), but things like Follow the Expert can affect your individual roll, contributing to overall success.

[Emongnome777]

Sorry, haven't been back here for quite a while. I'm glad some of my random comments are helpful. I don't expect you to agree with everything, of course. So long as the end result is something that is fun for your group, it's all good.

I didn't have much else to comment on. The rest was pretty solid and straight forward. I think I got a little confused a bit about the actions while moving and why they are different from the movement category.

About the only other thing I'd say is about the map making:


Map the Area
While Exploring an area that has already been fully explored, you create a map of the area for future use. Make an Intelligence (Cartographer’s Kit) check against the Navigation DC of the hex. On success, you create an accurate map of the area. When you can use this map while performing the Navigate action, you gain a bonus to your check equal to 2 + 1 for every 5 your Intelligence (Cartographer’s Kit) check exceeds the Navigation DC. Maps can also be valuable to sell in settlements.

My only concern here is that you may need to track the quality of a map. A map of hex A has a +4 attached to it, while a map of hex B has only a +2, for instance. Seems like a little too much bookkeeping. I assume purchased maps grant the same bonus (at least ones that are accurate). A base +2 to a navigation check while using an accurate map (compared to not having a map) seems small, but I don't have a good idea of a "better" bonus, so it's whatever suits you. Speaking of accurate ones, does the cartographer know if they made the navigation DC or not when drawing a map? Can they do a "redo" if they fail the check?

At this point, I'm interested to see how it works for you in playtesting. It isn't for everybody, but in the right campaign, these are a nice way to codify travel and exploration. Well done.