how to make synthetic rubies at 4th level?

[newguydude1]

i need 500gp of rubies at level 4 to cast persistent suffer the flesh twice to jack up my caster level to 7 (first sacrifice 4 con to make my cl 6, second sacrifice 6 con for cl7 since they dont stack).

now the problem is that my dm loves to throw me into robinson crusoe type campaigns. so if he throws me into one of these campaigns again, i need a way to get rubies.

ive been doing a hell of a lot of research on synthetic rubies and aluminum.
aluminum oxide melted with a tiny amount of chromium oxide = ruby.

aluminum is the most common metal on earth. clay has aluminum (with silicon not oxide).

so how would a 4th level wizard make synthetic rubies? using medieval level of stuff and magic. anyone know? anyone have a degree in chemistry that can help me?

locate object is obviously gonna be huge, but i cant use it to acquire rubies because natural rubies are rare.

melting of aluminum oxide is gonna be achieved by throwing orbs of lightning at it since lightning is 50000 degrees. it seems like charcoal forges cant get hot enough to melt aluminum oxide without something called "flux", which afaik are chemical reagents.

i know that bauxite is the best way to get aluminum oxide, but is bauxite everywhere? i looked it up and seems like you need specific mining locations like australia.



if you havent noticed, ive tried to tackle this problem by using blood component from tainted sorcerer or maho-tsukai, im still brainstorming that angle, but if i could find a way to source rubies all on my own then it would make my life a hell of a lot easier. because there doesnt seem to be a raw way of getting taint on you without high level (sm iii for taint elemental) or terrain obstacles (abyssal blackgrass, blood rock) or stuff like that. even learning maho-tsukai spells requires spell research.



i thought about vow of poverty but i cant see it working without breaking immersion. your supposed to swear an oath to a deity or powerful celestial so this needs to happen in my background story which i dont like because i like my background stories to be orphan abandoned somewhere then mistreated then ran away.

retraining vow of poverty out seems.... wtf. like can you swear an oath and then just reneg it?

and im using fell animate because its like the only way a solo wizard can survive and undead creation is super evil in d&d even if it doesnt have the evil tag. theres an entry in either bovd or boed that says creation undead = super evil no matter what.

[Saintheart]

Can you buy a scroll or two of Fabricate? 1 cubic foot of rock turned into a cubic foot of rubies ought to deal with the problem.

[newguydude1]

Can you buy a scroll or two of Fabricate? 1 cubic foot of rock turned into a cubic foot of rubies ought to deal with the problem.

if i could buy a scroll of fabricate i could buy the 500gp of rubies i need!

robinson crusoe setting. if you dont know what that is, its basically stranded on an island with absolutely nothing whatsoever, no technology, no equipment, nothing. gotta go all tarzan and become king of the jungle and hunt food to survive and make everything from weapons, shelter, bed, etc. yourself.

[Asmotherion]

A fireball, a 3rd level fire spell can (according to the spell description) melt various metals. The one with the highest melting point among them is Copper, at 1085oC.

To form a ruby, you need temperatures of 900oC. Thus, I believe that, a 3rd level or above fire spell (preferably the fireball spell itself, as it is indesputable that it does so) would produce the necessary temperature, as long as you have a crussible filled with Aluminium Oxide and Chromium Oxide to target. They must be mixed at a rate of 99% Aluminium oxide to 1% Chromium Oxide.

And that, ladyes and gentlemen is how you make a ruby.

Hint: there are ways to cast spells above your level, and I'd give you a complete list, but I'm tired right now, so I suggest you google it instead...

[newguydude1]

A fireball, a 3rd level fire spell can (according to the spell description) melt various metals. The one with the highest melting point among them is Copper, at 1085oC.

To form a ruby, you need temperatures of 900oC. Thus, I believe that, a 3rd level or above fire spell (preferably the fireball spell itself, as it is indesputable that it does so) would produce the necessary temperature, as long as you have a crussible filled with Aluminium Oxide and Chromium Oxide to target. They must be mixed at a rate of 99% Aluminium oxide to 1% Chromium Oxide.

And that, ladyes and gentlemen is how you make a ruby.

Hint: there are ways to cast spells above your level, and I'd give you a complete list, but I'm tired right now, so I suggest you google it instead...

aluminum oxide melting point is 2,072°C
coal forge maximum temp is 1'927°C

how do you source aluminum oxide and chromium oxide. if they can be found at all its gonna be in some kind of ore form, maybe bauxite, but clay is far more common.

[Fouredged Sword]

You can't synthesize a ruby in your backyard using scraps. It's not that simple. A ruby is aluminum oxide, but so are sapphires. What you will get is a clear stone that's likely useless for your needs or most likely some misscolored rock so full of inclusions it's barely a gem.

No, I would focus instead on getting access to a market the DM will struggle to take away from you. The best way to manage this for a 4th level wizard is not to use a spell, but rather your familiar. Get a raven familiar and a ring of sustenance and simply send the bird out to go buy you what you need. It can't carry much, but you can send it out as many times as you need to when the cards are down and you are trapped on an island.

Later you are going to want to upgrade to a system that cannot be subverted. I personally like a lesser planer bound succubus secretary for my evil wizard day to day needs. They can greater teleport at will, allowing them to pop into a shop on the other side of the world and back with up to 50lbs of merchandise with no issue.

[Vaern]

aluminum oxide melting point is 2,072°C
coal forge maximum temp is 1'927°C

how do you source aluminum oxide and chromium oxide. if they can be found at all its gonna be in some kind of ore form, maybe bauxite, but clay is far more common.
Raging Flame, druid/sorc/wiz 1, Spell Compendium, causes fire within the area to burn twice as hot for half as long. That should close the gap easily, though it only functions for a minute.

[Asmotherion]

You can't synthesize a ruby in your backyard using scraps. It's not that simple. A ruby is aluminum oxide, but so are sapphires. What you will get is a clear stone that's likely useless for your needs or most likely some misscolored rock so full of inclusions it's barely a gem.

No, I would focus instead on getting access to a market the DM will struggle to take away from you. The best way to manage this for a 4th level wizard is not to use a spell, but rather your familiar. Get a raven familiar and a ring of sustenance and simply send the bird out to go buy you what you need. It can't carry much, but you can send it out as many times as you need to when the cards are down and you are trapped on an island.

Later you are going to want to upgrade to a system that cannot be subverted. I personally like a lesser planer bound succubus secretary for my evil wizard day to day needs. They can greater teleport at will, allowing them to pop into a shop on the other side of the world and back with up to 50lbs of merchandise with no issue.

This guy did it though. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLV1pPvTpIw) I figure, if a guy can replicte it with modern technology, replicating it via magic would be a piece of cake. After all, D&D may be a medieval-inspired set of settings in most cases, but it's technological level via Magic implements many technologies that our level of technology cannot replicate (teleportation, telekinesis, anti gravity on a massive level). I assume most modern tools can be safely replicated via magic (for example an Arc Welder for a Lightning Spell, or high enough level Fire Spell).

Also, as demonstrated in the Video, the key to obtain a Ruby and not a clear gem is to have a mix of 1% Chromium Oxide for 99% Aluminium oxide.

[gijoemike]

Bauxite is a rock that is the world's primary source of aluminum. If you have found aluminum there is a very high chance you are actually mining bauxite.

magic is chaotic. Fires can burn up to X degrees and flash melt metal. But no where does it say the caster controls the exact temp. Modern science controls temp, humidity, purity, plus a dozen other variables.

You say you need to inc your caster level. What is your actual goal? There may be an easier way to achieve it given you don't have normal wealth or market access. What is the rest of your build?


Also, the familiar may have trouble finding the island if it has to travel really far. IIRC, Telepathy is limited.

[DwarvenWarCorgi]

A fireball, a 3rd level fire spell can (according to the spell description) melt various metals. The one with the highest melting point among them is Copper, at 1085oC.

To form a ruby, you need temperatures of 900oC. Thus, I believe that, a 3rd level or above fire spell (preferably the fireball spell itself, as it is indesputable that it does so) would produce the necessary temperature, as long as you have a crussible filled with Aluminium Oxide and Chromium Oxide to target. They must be mixed at a rate of 99% Aluminium oxide to 1% Chromium Oxide.

And that, ladyes and gentlemen is how you make a ruby.

Hint: there are ways to cast spells above your level, and I'd give you a complete list, but I'm tired right now, so I suggest you google it instead...

Friend of mine works for a company that builds the cores of furnaces that produce synthetic emeralds.. I'm not sure on rubies, but I know emeralds take weeks at temps over 1k C to "grow".

Isn't there a conversion table for material components to XP sacrifice in some 3.5 book?

I'm also pretty sure there's a spell that let's you Detect gemstones. (Edit Treasure Scent from SpC, so some chance involved, but better than nothing)

[newguydude1]

You say you need to inc your caster level. What is your actual goal? There may be an easier way to achieve it given you don't have normal wealth or market access. What is the rest of your build?

get mirror mephit by level 4 instead of level 7. last time i did a mirror mephit build i did not enjoy levels 5-6, so once i found out its possible to skip levels 5-6 i'm jumping at the chance.

build is wiz3/dreadnecro1
1 spell mastery
w1 extend spell
f1 persistent spell
f1 practiced spellcaster
3 improved familiar

only feat i can spare is spell mastery.


Bauxite is a rock that is the world's primary source of aluminum. If you have found aluminum there is a very high chance you are actually mining bauxite.

clay is everywhere and clay has aluminim. is bauxite everywhere?


magic is chaotic. Fires can burn up to X degrees and flash melt metal. But no where does it say the caster controls the exact temp. Modern science controls temp, humidity, purity, plus a dozen other variables.

lightning is lightning. orb of lightning is gonna be hot enough no matter how brief to melt anything. so just gotta repeatedly pelt it across days.


Also, the familiar may have trouble finding the island if it has to travel really far. IIRC, Telepathy is limited.

how are you getting a ring of sustenance in the first place


This guy did it though. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLV1pPvTpIw) I figure, if a guy can replicte it with modern technology, replicating it via magic would be a piece of cake. After all, D&D may be a medieval-inspired set of settings in most cases, but it's technological level via Magic implements many technologies that our level of technology cannot replicate (teleportation, telekinesis, anti gravity on a massive level). I assume most modern tools can be safely replicated via magic (for example an Arc Welder for a Lightning Spell, or high enough level Fire Spell).

Also, as demonstrated in the Video, the key to obtain a Ruby and not a clear gem is to have a mix of 1% Chromium Oxide for 99% Aluminium oxide.

i saw the video but the main problem here is how do you obtain the aluminum and chromium oxides.


Isn't there a conversion table for material components to XP sacrifice in some 3.5 book?

you need vow of poverty to do that. im not taking vow of poverty because it requires a ritual in front of a deity or a powerful celestial. if i can do that id rather just say "i received training from a tainted sorcerer and he tainted me before the campaign" and enter tainted sorcerer at level 3. using backstory to qualify for stuff is kinda cheap imo.


I'm also pretty sure there's a spell that let's you Detect gemstones. (Edit Treasure Scent from SpC, so some chance involved, but better than nothing)

its too high level, and i think locate object is much, much better.


Raging Flame, druid/sorc/wiz 1, Spell Compendium, causes fire within the area to burn twice as hot for half as long. That should close the gap easily, though it only functions for a minute.

awesome! perfect! now i only need to figure out how to source aluminum oxide and chromium oxide.

[magicalmagicman]

I checked out all the extraction methods, and they all involve some form of acid. So I think your out of luck. And I'm not sure any d&d setting knows about electrolysis yet.

[Asmotherion]

I checked out all the extraction methods, and they all involve some form of acid. So I think your out of luck. And I'm not sure any d&d setting knows about electrolysis yet.

Would not be above the technology in Eberron or the Spelljammer settings. Other than that, I do believe an Average Wizard has access to knowlage on chemistry and other sciences, and mostly used magic instead of tools to apply the technology. It's just that the knowlatge is not shared with the rest of the public.

I figure a properly used Major Creation can be used to refine the materials to a fine powder. The metals themselves... it does get trickyer, but Locate Object and Detect Metal and Minerals together with Summon Monster for something with a burrow speed can give you the means to find a vein of both materials.

All of those may be spells of various levels, but hey, you can always find scrolls or hire casters to get them casted early. Finally a Legend Lore could give some places known to contain the material, so you can have a more precise lead than "just cast the spell every so often, and hope it checks out".

Ultimatelly, if your DM does not want you to have rubies, you won't. This is just a suggestion so that both your DM can have his "scarce, hard to find resources" without impeding your abilities.

[OracleofWuffing]

Also, as demonstrated in the Video, the key to obtain a Ruby and not a clear gem is to have a mix of 1% Chromium Oxide for 99% Aluminium oxide.
This is kinda lawyer-y, but a number of places when I'm googling on Rubies indicate that a ruby is red-colored Corundum. If you stick strictly enough to that definition, you don't need the Chromium Oxide, a clear gem is good enough- just Prestidigitation the clear gem red and get your spell cast within the hour. So, just focusing on Corundum, that appears in metamorphic and igneous rocks, so... Perhaps the question is how to mine at 4th level?

[InvisibleBison]

Have you confirmed that chemistry works the same way in your DM's world as it does in ours? Because all the ingenious applications of real-world chemistry aren't going to help you if it turns out a ruby is made out a precise mixture of elemental earth and elemental fire.

[newguydude1]

Have you confirmed that chemistry works the same way in your DM's world as it does in ours? Because all the ingenious applications of real-world chemistry aren't going to help you if it turns out a ruby is made out a precise mixture of elemental earth and elemental fire.

it does. however i do need to justify how my character came upon this knowledge if it even is possible.

[magicalmagicman]

Grab Planar Familiar instead of Improved Familiar
At level 5 grab an earth elemental familiar
Have it traverse the entire underground and get you your rubies
Dismiss it
Wait a year and a day
Get your Mirror Mephit Familiar.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

it does. however i do need to justify how my character came upon this knowledge if it even is possible.Ranks in Knowledge: Applied Chemistry. Even Knowledge: Geology might work, if you had enough ranks.


Grab Planar Familiar instead of Improved Familiar
At level 5 grab an earth elemental familiar
Have it traverse the entire underground and get you your rubies
Dismiss it
Wait a year and a day
Get your Mirror Mephit Familiar.Or go changeling wizard and wait 1 level for your earth elemental familiar to turn into a mirror mephit.

[newguydude1]

Or go changeling wizard and wait 1 level for your earth elemental familiar to turn into a mirror mephit.

how does that work

[MaxiDuRaritry]

how does that workChangeling wizard racial levels for morphic familiar. 5th level gives your familiar the ability to become any other type of familiar you can possibly have as a full-round action. No, not polymorph. It actually becomes the new form, along with all the racial abilities and everything. So Improved Familiar grants a flubton of new forms, Planar Familiar gives quite a few good options, Draconic Familiar is REALLY nice, and levels in spell sovereign give ALL spells as living spells up to 4th level (if you finish out the class). And maybe a dip in arcane hierophant for any animal companion you can eat.

[newguydude1]

Changeling wizard racial levels for morphic familiar. 5th level gives your familiar the ability to become any other type of familiar you can possibly have as a standard action. No, not polymorph. It actually becomes the new form, along with all the racial abilities and everything. So Improved Familiar grants a flubton of new forms, Planar Familiar gives quite a few good options, Draconic Familiar is REALLY nice, and levels in spell sovereign give ALL spells as living spells up to 4th level (if you finish out the class). And maybe a dip in arcane hierophant for any animal companion you can eat.

where is source material i wanna look it up and read it in depth. where is changeling racial wizard level?

heres me crossing my fingers its not webcontent or dragon magazine.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

where is source material i wanna look it up and read it in depth. where is changeling racial wizard level?

heres me crossing my fingers its not webcontent or dragon magazine.Races of Eberron.

[newguydude1]

Races of Eberron.

yeah found it. loving this. you mightve just solved all of my goddamn problems here. oh my god lol.

thanks a lot man. like a lot. just gotta verify it does work as you say so but wow. way to go.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

yeah found it. loving this. you mightve just solved all of my goddamn problems here. oh my god lol.

thanks a lot man. like a lot. just gotta verify it does work as you say so but wow. way to go.I got it slightly wrong. The familiar uses a full-round action, not a standard action. But other than that...

Also, you're welcome.

[newguydude1]

I got it slightly wrong. The familiar uses a full-round action, not a standard action. But other than that...

Also, you're welcome.

yeah i think it works. it only takes a full-round action so i dont need persistent spell from illumian naenhoon. just a direct suffer the flesh and then full round action.

ill thank you again man, and magicalmagicman. ive been wanting to get onto the character building part of this whole endeavor for weeks now but couldnt until i solved this early mirror mephit without relying on shops problem.

"magical materials" to obtain a familiar is gonna be achieved either by casting arcane mark on 100gp of mundane materials therefore turning them magical, or by casting continual flame from yet more rubies (the only material component i use seem to be rubies. simulacrum, suffer the flesh, continual flame) to make em worth 100gp which is what everburning torches are worth. or actually since ill have 3rd level spells ill use ambrosia which is worth 200gp and its 100% magical cause it can be dispelled.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Item familiars are familiars, right...?

And a morphic familiar can turn into any available familiar...

[Fouredged Sword]

Item familiars are familiars, right...?

And a morphic familiar can turn into any available familiar...

It also plays interesting with Arcane Hierophant class. Your animal companion gets all the abilities your familiar would normally get, including the morphic familiar ability, allowing it to change into any creature you could pick from the entire animal companion list.

[Skysaber]

i know that bauxite is the best way to get aluminum oxide, but is bauxite everywhere? i looked it up and seems like you need specific mining locations like australia.

Bauxite makes up 6% of the Earth's crust. Bauxite is literally everywhere. There are just some sources that are more commercially viable than others. That's all.

Do you have access to Oriental Adventures material? There is a handy little spell named Call Earth...

Call Earth (OA: Rok p101), 0th Druid or Shugenja
Personal, Perm, calls 1D4+1 small stones into existence in the caster's hand. Can be of any non-gp mineral, including dirt. Can be rough version of any dictated shape, including stone tools and weapons of size Tiny or smaller (break on any natural 1 when used).

Do note that coal has no established D&D value. Nor do rare earths as used in electronics manufacture. So get yourself some Bauxite, some chromium oxide, what have you, even as you float on a raft in the center of the ocean.

And I happen to know there are feats out there that will let you choose your own 0th level druid spell to have as a 1/day SLA.

[newguydude1]

Bauxite makes up 6% of the Earth's crust. Bauxite is literally everywhere. There are just some sources that are more commercially viable than others. That's all.

Do you have access to Oriental Adventures material? There is a handy little spell named Call Earth...

Call Earth (OA: Rok p101), 0th Druid or Shugenja
Personal, Perm, calls 1D4+1 small stones into existence in the caster's hand. Can be of any non-gp mineral, including dirt. Can be rough version of any dictated shape, including stone tools and weapons of size Tiny or smaller (break on any natural 1 when used).

Do note that coal has no established D&D value. Nor do rare earths as used in electronics manufacture. So get yourself some Bauxite, some chromium oxide, what have you, even as you float on a raft in the center of the ocean.

And I happen to know there are feats out there that will let you choose your own 0th level druid spell to have as a 1/day SLA.

i cant find the spell. what is rok? oa is oriental adventures, but i cant find the spell in that book.

[Skysaber]

i cant find the spell. what is rok? oa is oriental adventures, but i cant find the spell in that book.

Oriental Adventures is a book, it is also a campaign setting, of which Rokugan is the base, and also the book you are after.

So, stepping a toe out into D20, as the book Oriental Adventures was licensed by WotC, but the rest of the series, well, it's debatable just how official. Opinions go either way.

Mostly the question doesn't even come up, as most of the material is so focused on the one setting. But this does get called out as a druid spell, and druids get access to their whole list, so...

It's possible? WotC literally hired the company to produce their Oriental Adventures setting. It's just that people who are inclined to ban things fairly often find this over one of their lines.

[Sam K]

Possible complication with this, depending on how tricky your GM tries to be:

Synthetic rubies may not be valuable. Most spell components require a specific GP worth of gems, and your synthetic rubies, while chemically rubies, may not have the GP value to qualify as a spell component. After all, they may be very low-grade rubies depending on the conditions you create them under. Based on the possible scenario described, a Robinson Crusoe type of setting probably wouldn't give you a sterile environment to make sure the materials are free from contamination. You may end up with a discolored crystal the size of an egg, huge by ruby standards, but so contaminated noone except a chemist would even recognize it as a ruby, thus making it rather useless.

If you're set on this, maybe make sure you have a suitable craft skill? Craft: Gem forging, if your DM will allow it?

[Fouredged Sword]

Also once you hit high enough level you can get any mundane items you want by planer binding a Rejkar. They are evil demon goats, but they have fabricate at will as an SLA so they can essentially will any mundane item into existence so long as it has a reasonable craft DC and is under 50 cubic feet in volume. Because it's a SLA they don't need material components and thus bypass the need for any base for the fabricate spell. They just will stuff into existence.

With the cold domain gained through planer touchstone you can rebuke one into your control and keep it as a pet. A helm of reverse alignment is a solid suggestion to prevent it from being the backstabby goat vizar that it is.

[newguydude1]

Possible complication with this, depending on how tricky your GM tries to be:

Synthetic rubies may not be valuable. Most spell components require a specific GP worth of gems, and your synthetic rubies, while chemically rubies, may not have the GP value to qualify as a spell component. After all, they may be very low-grade rubies depending on the conditions you create them under. Based on the possible scenario described, a Robinson Crusoe type of setting probably wouldn't give you a sterile environment to make sure the materials are free from contamination. You may end up with a discolored crystal the size of an egg, huge by ruby standards, but so contaminated noone except a chemist would even recognize it as a ruby, thus making it rather useless.

If you're set on this, maybe make sure you have a suitable craft skill? Craft: Gem forging, if your DM will allow it?

quantity over quality. get a **** huge pile of crap rubies totaling 250gp.


Also once you hit high enough level you can get any mundane items you want by planer binding a Rejkar. They are evil demon goats, but they have fabricate at will as an SLA so they can essentially will any mundane item into existence so long as it has a reasonable craft DC and is under 50 cubic feet in volume. Because it's a SLA they don't need material components and thus bypass the need for any base for the fabricate spell. They just will stuff into existence.

With the cold domain gained through planer touchstone you can rebuke one into your control and keep it as a pet. A helm of reverse alignment is a solid suggestion to prevent it from being the backstabby goat vizar that it is.

you still gotta target something with the spell like ability.

[Fouredged Sword]

quantity over quality. get a **** huge pile of crap rubies totaling 250gp.



you still gotta target something with the spell like ability.
Yes, but when you remove the material component all you are left with is an area.

[Saint-Just]

"You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material". It's not under "material component" heading. Yes, without "material component" it's not a very clear what you should be targeting, but it's still would not qualify as the worst-phrased spell in D&D. Transmutation instead of Conjuration (Calling) rules out "I create thing in the area of less than", and "same material" rules out "I make rubies out of thin air"

[Asmotherion]

Have you confirmed that chemistry works the same way in your DM's world as it does in ours? Because all the ingenious applications of real-world chemistry aren't going to help you if it turns out a ruby is made out a precise mixture of elemental earth and elemental fire.

Technically true, but also, any DM who's going to argue "science doesn't work because magic" is not really a good DM to have. I'm ok if they get you to get the knowlage through Role Playing, but any world were you can rely on physics conforming to our worlds physiscs (gravity, fire is hot etc), it is only logical to assume science works the same way.

Also, there's a big differance between "this is part of the setting" and "I pulled this out of nowere specifically so that your idea won't work".

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Science always works, unless the universe at large has no actual rules and just...does whatever, however, whenever, with no rhyme or reason. So, basically The Far Realm.

If a world has rules, science can help you learn those rules.

Remember, "science" is not "the physics of our world." It's a set of rules that's used to learn how the universe works.

[Fouredged Sword]

Though to forestall an issue with your game I would like to advise you to consider why your DM is isolating you from resources like markets. They are the DM after all. You can come up with all the plans you like, they can simply say no. This is a problem that likely requires you to play the DM as much as play the rules. Thus considering what exactly your DM is doing and why becomes important. The solution may be as simple as talking to them ahead of time and attempting to play the game you are presented rather than the rules.

Are they trying to get you to plan ahead? If so they plans on how to circumvent the restriction are likely to be taken well. Be careful though, as your DM may stop any plan they feel allows you to circumvent the challenge as they see it - having to plan ahead what you spend your initial resources on. Tell them ahead of time about these plans so it doesn't seem like you are ass pulling.

Are they trying to artificially restrict player power? Some DM's like to do this. It's generally a **** idea, but if they have a monk in the party they are trying to throw a bone to by preventing the wizard from free use of their class features then any plan you have to circumvent this is going to go badly. Talk to your DM ahead of time and see if you can proactively work to give the lower tier classes more time to shine so the DM doesn't feel the need to kneecap your character.

Are they powertripping? Some DM's just like to do that. There is no fighting it. You ether deal with the DM power trips or find a new DM.

[unseenmage]

Science always works, unless the universe at large has no actual rules and just...does whatever, however, whenever, with no rhyme or reason. So, basically The Far Realm.

If a world has rules, science can help you learn those rules.

Remember, "science" is not "the physics of our world." It's a set of rules that's used to learn how the universe works.
And Faerun. Faerun deities just kind of turned off gunpowder.
Smoke powder still works though. For reasons I guess.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

And Faerun. Faerun deities just kind of turned off gunpowder.
Smoke powder still works though. For reasons I guess.That's because Faerun sucks.

I mean, we already knew this because of the stupid Wall of the Faithless, but still.

Man, if I ever isekai into Faerun, I'm unlocking my potential for magic (or psionics), then Gee Tee Eff Ohh'ing after leveling to epic ASAP (seriously, I can do it in like a week; or a few rounds, if Pazuzu is around) and then I'm hobomurderizing a number of the dumber deities (so, almost all of them). I'm leaving Mystra alone, though, because she's like the only decent one there.

[edit] I guess I can use a fast-time genesis to craft a fast-growing demiplane, barr it from deities, then transplant all of Faerun's mortal population there. Complete lack of worshipers should kill off the gods by itself, I think.

[newguydude1]

Though to forestall an issue with your game I would like to advise you to consider why your DM is isolating you from resources like markets. They are the DM after all. You can come up with all the plans you like, they can simply say no. This is a problem that likely requires you to play the DM as much as play the rules. Thus considering what exactly your DM is doing and why becomes important. The solution may be as simple as talking to them ahead of time and attempting to play the game you are presented rather than the rules.

Are they trying to get you to plan ahead? If so they plans on how to circumvent the restriction are likely to be taken well. Be careful though, as your DM may stop any plan they feel allows you to circumvent the challenge as they see it - having to plan ahead what you spend your initial resources on. Tell them ahead of time about these plans so it doesn't seem like you are ass pulling.

Are they trying to artificially restrict player power? Some DM's like to do this. It's generally a **** idea, but if they have a monk in the party they are trying to throw a bone to by preventing the wizard from free use of their class features then any plan you have to circumvent this is going to go badly. Talk to your DM ahead of time and see if you can proactively work to give the lower tier classes more time to shine so the DM doesn't feel the need to kneecap your character.

Are they powertripping? Some DM's just like to do that. There is no fighting it. You ether deal with the DM power trips or find a new DM.

its both.
i want to create characters that dont rely on an entire nations supply chain
he wants to run robinson crusoe campaigns.

he approved of earth elemental grabbing rubies. because unlike summon monster these things last forever, and i can cast locate object on it which goes through the earth, just not lead. and its impossible to kill an earth elemental thats earth gliding 24/7.

[Asmotherion]

And Faerun. Faerun deities just kind of turned off gunpowder.
Smoke powder still works though. For reasons I guess.

First time I hear about it. Source?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Technically true, but also, any DM who's going to argue "science doesn't work because magic" is not really a good DM to have. I'm ok if they get you to get the knowlage through Role Playing, but any world were you can rely on physics conforming to our worlds physiscs (gravity, fire is hot etc), it is only logical to assume science works the same way.

Also, there's a big differance between "this is part of the setting" and "I pulled this out of nowere specifically so that your idea won't work".
D&D already runs on a bastardized version of the platonic elements, so being incompatible with our modern understanding of science is part of all the standard settings.

That aside, if his DM doesn't want him to do this all he has to do is enforce the separation of meta- and IC-knowledge.
Just because you, the player, can google how rubies are created doesn't mean your character can pull the knowledge out of thin air. Especially if he's stuck in a Robinson Crusoe situation.

Considering that knowledge:chemistry (or even the scientific method) isn't really a thing in any remotely standard D&D setting it could be argued that even the idea of synthetically creating gems is already metagaming.

If anything this sounds more like the realm of alchemy. Turning lead into gold is the classic, but turning quartz into more valuable gems would fit.
Not that D&D alchemy has rules for transmuting matter like that, but it'd be the go-to skill for this kind of thing from a medieval (in-character) understanding of the world.
If it's possible with alchemy (or at all) would then by up to your DM, but your character would have no way of knowing.

Either way it'd require research and resources, so i wouldn't consider it something you can just do when you're stuck on an uninhabited island.

[Asmotherion]

D&D already runs on a bastardized version of the platonic elements, so being incompatible with our modern understanding of science is part of all the standard settings.

That aside, if his DM doesn't want him to do this all he has to do is enforce the separation of meta- and IC-knowledge.
Just because you, the player, can google how rubies are created doesn't mean your character can pull the knowledge out of thin air. Especially if he's stuck in a Robinson Crusoe situation.

Considering that knowledge:chemistry (or even the scientific method) isn't really a thing in any remotely standard D&D setting it could be argued that even the idea of synthetically creating gems is already metagaming.

If anything this sounds more like the realm of alchemy. Turning lead into gold is the classic, but turning quartz into more valuable gems would fit.
Not that D&D alchemy has rules for transmuting matter like that, but it'd be the go-to skill for this kind of thing from a medieval (in-character) understanding of the world.
If it's possible with alchemy (or at all) would then by up to your DM, but your character would have no way of knowing.

Either way it'd require research and resources, so i wouldn't consider it something you can just do when you're stuck on an uninhabited island.

Hey, I partially agree, especially with the research part (as I said on my previous post).

I just think that, there needs to be a good lore reason for physics to work differently in a fictional setting, not just because "the DM said so". Accessability of the necessary knowlege is a different thing entirelly, and I would personally classify it as "alchemy".

[newguydude1]

physics in d&d is different than real life.
mirrors dont reflect light. mirrors open a window into another plane where another creature looks through the window at you and that creature happened to look like you and have the same abilities as you.

[unseenmage]

First time I hear about it. Source?

Apologies but its been too long and I do not remember.

Heres what Google spat out at me though. (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sageadvice.eu/2019/06/23/what-being-in-forgotten-realm-is-in-charge-of-making-sure-gunpowder-doesnt-work/amp/)

Appears to be Ed Greenwood discussing the idea and its origination.

[Asmotherion]

Apologies but its been too long and I do not remember.

Heres what Google spat out at me though. (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sageadvice.eu/2019/06/23/what-being-in-forgotten-realm-is-in-charge-of-making-sure-gunpowder-doesnt-work/amp/)

Appears to be Ed Greenwood discussing the idea and its origination.

Hmm, so according to Ed Greenwood's tweets, the Deity who tinkered with Gunpowder and other powerful explosives like Nitroglycerin in The Forgoten Realms is Gond, because many of his clerics were killed by either using it, or his enemies using it. The way it is phrased makes me believe that it works, it's just much less powerful than in our world.

For anyone else interested, it seems the source is a collection of articles across the Dragon Magazine. I leave this here for archiving purposes, in case anyone has the same question. I don't know which Dragon Magazine articles though.

Interesting. This is what I would describe as a Lore reason for it not working, btw.

[newguydude1]

ok guys i made progress!!!

theres a spell called clothiers closet. it requires 100gp gem as a material component. but get this, the spell makes nobles clothes. and nobles clothes are made with precious metals and gemstones. from extrapolation we can conclude that nobles clothes are 25gp of cloth and 50gp of gemstones/precious metals.

so in other words, the spell can be used to convert one type of gemstone into another at 50% efficiency.

so what is the easiest gemstone we can find or synthetically fabricate with 2nd level spells? at most 3rd level spells.

01-25 4d4 gp 10 gp Banded, eye, or moss agate; azurite; blue quartz; hematite; lapis lazuli; malachite; obsidian; rhodochrosite; tiger eye turquoise; freshwater (irregular) pearl
26-50 2d4 × 10 gp 50 gp Bloodstone; carnelian; chalcedony; chrysoprase; citrine; iolite, jasper; moonstone; onyx; peridot; rock crystal (clear quartz); sard; sardonyx; rose, smoky, or star rose quartz; zircon
51-70 4d4 × 10 gp 100 gp Amber; amethyst; chrysoberyl; coral; red or brown-green garnet; jade; jet; white, golden, pink, or silver pearl; red spinel, red-brown or deep green spinel; tourmaline
71-90 2d4 × 100 gp 500 gp Alexandrite; aquamarine; violet garnet; black pearl; deep blue spinel; golden yellow topaz
91-99 4d4 × 100 gp 1,000 gp Emerald; white, black, or fire opal; blue sapphire; fiery yellow or rich purple corundum; blue or black star sapphire; star ruby
100 2d4 × 1,000 gp 5,000 gp Clearest bright green emerald; blue-white, canary, pink, brown, or blue diamond; jacinth

list of gemstones from the d20srd.
if my copy paste of the table hurts your eyes
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/treasure.htm

[shaikujin]

ok guys i made progress!!!

theres a spell called clothiers closet. it requires 100gp gem as a material component. but get this, the spell makes nobles clothes. and nobles clothes are made with precious metals and gemstones. from extrapolation we can conclude that nobles clothes are 25gp of cloth and 50gp of gemstones/precious metals.

so in other words, the spell can be used to convert one type of gemstone into another at 50% efficiency.

so what is the easiest gemstone we can find or synthetically fabricate with 2nd level spells? at most 3rd level spells.

01-25 4d4 gp 10 gp Banded, eye, or moss agate; azurite; blue quartz; hematite; lapis lazuli; malachite; obsidian; rhodochrosite; tiger eye turquoise; freshwater (irregular) pearl
26-50 2d4 × 10 gp 50 gp Bloodstone; carnelian; chalcedony; chrysoprase; citrine; iolite, jasper; moonstone; onyx; peridot; rock crystal (clear quartz); sard; sardonyx; rose, smoky, or star rose quartz; zircon
51-70 4d4 × 10 gp 100 gp Amber; amethyst; chrysoberyl; coral; red or brown-green garnet; jade; jet; white, golden, pink, or silver pearl; red spinel, red-brown or deep green spinel; tourmaline
71-90 2d4 × 100 gp 500 gp Alexandrite; aquamarine; violet garnet; black pearl; deep blue spinel; golden yellow topaz
91-99 4d4 × 100 gp 1,000 gp Emerald; white, black, or fire opal; blue sapphire; fiery yellow or rich purple corundum; blue or black star sapphire; star ruby
100 2d4 × 1,000 gp 5,000 gp Clearest bright green emerald; blue-white, canary, pink, brown, or blue diamond; jacinth

list of gemstones from the d20srd.
if my copy paste of the table hurts your eyes
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/treasure.htm

Best bet since you are on an island would be coral and pearls. Harvest them from the sea. Profession (Pearl Diver) may help if you want to simulate the amount of GP earned using D&D rules (half your Profession check result in gold pieces per week).

You can get amber from trees, or obsidian if there's volcanic glass around.

Or take Profession (Miner) and just use it to simulate how much GP worth of various precious metal you can mine from the island.



Semi cheating route:
Use Craft (Alchemy) to make Shapesand. Shapesand is from Sandstorm. DC to craft Shapesand is 25.
Craft 500 GP worth of Shapesand, then shape it into an equivalent worth of rubies. Shapesand can serve as a normal item of the same sort you shaped it into. Since you are shaping 500 gp of Shapesand into the same value of 500 gp worth of rubies, you probably won't get a book thrown at you.


Full cheese route:
Shapesand as well, but use the equivalent of Shapesand in weight to shape into a ruby instead. The gems are normally considered so light that they are not given any weight. A 100 gp ruby weighs 0, a 500 gp ruby also weighs 0.
Shape a minute amount of Shapesand (as in zero lb) into a 500 gp ruby.

Or let's just take it that a gem weighs 1 gp, which is 1/50th of a pound.
Shape 1/50th pound of Shapesand into a 500 gp ruby.

Going this route will probably result in the DMG being thrown at you...



Even if you don't use it for making rubies, Shapesand would be useful in any case in a Robinson Crusoe campaign. You can shape it into any items/tools you need.

[newguydude1]

Semi cheating route:
Use Craft (Alchemy) to make Shapesand. Shapesand is from Sandstorm. DC to craft Shapesand is 25.
Craft 500 GP worth of Shapesand, then shape it into an equivalent worth of rubies. Shapesand can serve as a normal item of the same sort you shaped it into. Since you are shaping 500 gp of Shapesand into the same value of 500 gp worth of rubies, you probably won't get a book thrown at you.


Full cheese route:
Shapesand as well, but use the equivalent of Shapesand in weight to shape into a ruby instead. The gems are normally considered so light that they are not given any weight. A 100 gp ruby weighs 0, a 500 gp ruby also weighs 0.
Shape a minute amount of Shapesand (as in zero lb) into a 500 gp ruby.

Or let's just take it that a gem weighs 1 gp, which is 1/50th of a pound.
Shape 1/50th pound of Shapesand into a 500 gp ruby.

Going this route will probably result in the DMG being thrown at you...



Even if you don't use it for making rubies, Shapesand would be useful in any case in a Robinson Crusoe campaign. You can shape it into any items/tools you need.

how are you getting the raw materials (34gp) to make the shapesand with?
also "alchemical equipment is difficult or impossible to come by in some places"
so you cant even craft it.

[shaikujin]

how are you getting the raw materials (34gp) to make the shapesand with?
also "alchemical equipment is difficult or impossible to come by in some places"
so you cant even craft it.

What type of raw materials required for each alchemical item is not stated.
But since shapesand is a type of soil, use mining to get the equivalent of 34 gp worth of raw materials.

As for the lab, there is this section if you look at the alchemical lab -
Without this lab, a character with the Craft (alchemy) skill is assumed to have enough tools to use the skill but not enough to get the +2 bonus that the lab provides.


It just means you do not get the +2 bonus. Assume you have enough coconut shells to serve as beakers, branches to serve as tongs etc.

If you want to go further, you can also craft masterwork tools to grant a +2 bonus in place of the lab. Eg magnifying lenses from clear resin that you grind smooth, sifts made from coconut husk fibers to strain finer sand/soil required as raw materials etc.

[Fouredged Sword]

What type of raw materials required for each alchemical item is not stated.
But since shapesand is a type of soil, use mining to get the equivalent of 34 gp worth of raw materials.

As for the lab, there is this section if you look at the alchemical lab -
Without this lab, a character with the Craft (alchemy) skill is assumed to have enough tools to use the skill but not enough to get the +2 bonus that the lab provides.


It just means you do not get the +2 bonus. Assume you have enough coconut shells to serve as beakers, branches to serve as tongs etc.

If you want to go further, you can also craft masterwork tools to grant a +2 bonus in place of the lab. Eg magnifying lenses from clear resin that you grind smooth, sifts made from coconut husk fibers to strain finer sand/soil required as raw materials etc.

Or you could do the normal thing and always carry a small amount of shapesand. You can use shapesand to form a mundane item like an alchemical lab and then use it to make more shapesand.

[newguydude1]

What type of raw materials required for each alchemical item is not stated.
But since shapesand is a type of soil, use mining to get the equivalent of 34 gp worth of raw materials.

if its not stated im out of luck.
psychoreactive soil from limbo. yeah i dont think you can get stuff that can turn things into psychoreactive things anywhere.

major creation however seems to be able to create shapesand. might be something there for something else, but this seems like a dead end for this scenario.

[shaikujin]

if its not stated im out of luck.
psychoreactive soil from limbo. yeah i dont think you can get stuff that can turn things into psychoreactive things anywhere.

major creation however seems to be able to create shapesand. might be something there for something else, but this seems like a dead end for this scenario.

Psychoreactive soil from limbo is the naturally occurring stuff. If you have access to that, there's no need to craft it.

Where I am going with this is using alchemy to turn normal soil and raw materials you can find on your island suitable enough to be synthesized into shapesand. Of course, DM might still say you need to at least have soil from limbo, if that's the case, then this idea won't fly.

Healer's Balm for example doesn't say what raw materials are required either. You use alchemy to synthesize 4 gp worth of raw materials into the balm. But DM might say you need to at least find 4gp worth of plants with healing properties as raw materials.


Did you start buck naked and have to craft your own clothes and shoes? How is that simulated?

Do you have any item that qualifies you to take the ancestral relic feat? That might be another way. Sacrifice what you can mine, or make mastercraft quarterstaves to be sacrificed to the relic. Give it 1 charge of the spell you wish to cast. Then sacrifice more items and econfigure it the next day with properties worth the same gp value.

[newguydude1]

Did you start buck naked and have to craft your own clothes and shoes? How is that simulated?

by not crafting my own clothes and shoes. theres a lot of things you can do with spells. honestly i found a trick that makes this thread irrelevant. but who knows where these things lead. something here might make me ditch my current strategy.

so anyways i hate waiting until level 7 to get a mirror mephit (with a few house rules that nerf it. only 1 simulacrum and its cr is less than or equal to my ecl). the island is fiend infested and i found it very hard to survive until level 7.

even at level 6 when i get animate weapon with persistent sonorous hum and get a colossal animated object as a minion, a single babau spamming dispel magic ended that strategy.

so the purpose of this thread was to get access to suffer the flesh to get the mirror mephit at level 4 or 5. 4 if im going illumian with persistent suffer the flesh. 5 if i'm going changeling with the substitution level that lets me transform my familiar in 1 round.

for levels 1 to 3 or 4 ive been using fell animate with metamagic cost reducers on my animal companion (familiar acf from unearthed arcana) to make a zombie army but zombies are horrible against fiends.

then i found the racial emulation feat for changelings, which says changelings assume the form of the creature when they use minor change shape. so now i use assume supernatural ability: call ruin elemental and use with minor change shape into a ruin chanter with it to get a ruin elemental (cr10 creature) at level 3. level 3 because i need 20 knowledge nature to know of the ruin chanter's existence, which requires me to be level 2. so after learning about ruin chanter via ancient knowledge spell (ivory is obtained from murdering my animal companions over and over for their teeth, and food) i grab the feat at level 3 and boom. ruin elemental. haven't played him in my dms campaign yet but i think its gonna go extremely well. its a cr10 creature in cr 3 environment, but since im soloing this its actually higher than cr3.