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clash
2020-12-09, 07:46 AM
So with all the talk about spells that are overpowered or underpowered for their level it got me thinking. Compared to what? Which spells really stand out as the gold standard for being perfectly in line with what the spell for that slot should look like? What are the best balanced spells that all other spells should aspire top be like?

MrStabby
2020-12-09, 08:50 AM
Cure wounds springs to mind. It is remarkable, clearly magical and sets appart the characters that can cast it. It is not that powerful but still sees play.

Spiritual weapon - its context is important as it gives clerics a second attack but has a cost in terms of spell slot, bonus action and the fact that the action cannot be used for a levelled spell.

Dissonent whispers - a great spell but lets the rest of the party shine as part of its greatness but not always useful.

Eyebite - a solid, playable level 6 spell that gives a lot of diverse options on use.

Heal - in combat healing isn't usually that strong but make the effect big enough and you get something about the right power

jojosskul
2020-12-09, 09:03 AM
The first one that jumps to mind for me is Levitate. For a level two spell it can serve a variety of uses. Negate an enemy melee by throwing them into the air, get yourself on top of that cliff, take a giant 500 lb rock and float it over a doorway and drop concentration to drop it on someones head.

It's well balanced because it does things that level 1 spells can't do. Catapault can move objects any direction, but they're limited to 5 lbs. Fly gives you the ability to actually FLY, which is extremely powerful but can't be used on objects. It's a good power level for 2nd level, but doesn't step on the toes of any higher level spells while still serving it's own purpose even at higher levels until it gets blown out of the water (appropriately) by the 5th level spell Telekinesis.

Eldariel
2020-12-09, 09:24 AM
Mirror Image is a solid defensive spell; the action cost is a bit painful but OTOH it's a Concentration-free defense buff that gives you extremely high miss chance against any level of offensive prowess. I think it's right around the right power level.

Misty Step too - while it's a strong spell, it's probably not too strong and miniteleportation is really cool (and it carries a very real cost in that you can't follow up with a leveled spell). It's a lot of fun and feels about appropriate for a level 3 Wizard.

Telekinesis is again about right and pretty cool. Lots of thematic awesome options (though the fact that it lacks rules for throwing stuff at people at the present is kinda downer compared to its earlier iterations) and it's strong, as befits a level 5 spell, but not too strong so as to overshadow most of its competition (like Wall of Force unfortunately does - whoever thought that Forcecage should be a level 5 spell without a costly component wasn't thinking things through).

Gignere
2020-12-09, 07:12 PM
Magic Missile damage is pretty strong at low levels but doesn’t scale well so you will be looking to replace it unless you are building for it. It is reliable, you know you won’t be wasting a spell slot because it hits automatically.

heavyfuel
2020-12-10, 11:20 AM
Honestly, I think most low level spells are decently balanced. Some I wish were a bit stronger or a bit weaker, obviously, but in general I think they nailed the balance.

Even "bangers" like Sleep. Yeah, it's crazy good if you're fighting Goblins, but it's completely useless if you're fighting Skeletons or Elves, so it evens out. Plus, no scaling to speak of, so it's useless by Tier 2 regardless of what you're fighting.

Magic Missile is great in circumstances where the enemy is low on HP and you must finish them off. Probably a bit too situational for my tastes, but I don't think it's bad pick.

I like these kinds of spells where they are amazing in the right circumstance but useless otherwise. It's literally my favorite thing about Casters.

Amnestic
2020-12-10, 12:32 PM
Magic Missile is great in circumstances where the enemy is low on HP and you must finish them off. Probably a bit too situational for my tastes, but I don't think it's bad pick.


MM is also very good at forcing concentration saves, since each bolt is a separate, guaranteed damage instance (unless they cast Shield).

I would like to call out Sleet Storm as a well balanced spell. 3rd level slot, good size radius, heavy obscurement, forces pseudo-concentration saves (that aren't actually concentration, it's a Constitution save - matters for Warcaster), difficult terrain and pushes people over? Just a good all around control tool, but it does zero damage and requires concentration and doesn't actually take away turns with stuns or incapacitates.

Bobthewizard
2020-12-10, 01:32 PM
So if I take out the overpowered spells, or at least the ones I would almost always take (this is my list, you might have your own. I'm just explaining how I got to my list below).

1st sleep, shield, healing word, goodberry
2nd suggestion, levitate, web, spiritual weapon, pass without trace
3rd hypnotic pattern, fear, conjure animals, spirit guardians, fireball, counterspell
4th polymorph, arcane eye
5th wall of force, animate objects
6th mass suggestion
7th forcecage

Then I would say the next tier of spells is likely about right:

1st absorb elements, magic missile, thunderwave, bless, faerie fire, fog cloud, grease
2nd invisibility, shatter, lesser restoration, misty step, mirror image, blindness, flaming sphere
3rd dispel magic, enemies abound, fly, thunderstep, lightning bolt, sleet storm
4th dimension door, banishment, otiluke’s sphere, confusion
5th wall of stone, bigby’s hand
6th ?
7th ?

This is all off the top of my head, so I’m sure I missed some.

MaxWilson
2020-12-10, 02:03 PM
So with all the talk about spells that are overpowered or underpowered for their level it got me thinking. Compared to what? Which spells really stand out as the gold standard for being perfectly in line with what the spell for that slot should look like? What are the best balanced spells that all other spells should aspire top be like?

There are spells which are balanced but boring (Cone of Cold, Confusion). I don't have much to say about them because they are unremarkable by design. But others are balanced in a more interesting way.

I think Haste is a good example of a spell with nice tradeoffs. When you first read it, it looks really strong, then you realize its limitations (only one extra attack, takes an action to cast, costs you more actions if you fail) and it looks really weak, then you learn how to leverage its other features (extra movement, free Hide or Disengage instead of attack, extra AC) and it looks like a niche but often quite good spell.

I think Summon Greater Demon has a very interesting type of balance: you're balancing risk vs. benefits, and trying to make sure you only pick a demon which is exactly strong enough to defeat the enemies you're tossing it at, without having much gas left in the tank to kill YOU afterward. With Summon Greater Demon, overkill is definitely bad. Don't use a Glabrezu to kill an Orog, pick something weaker like a Shadow Demon instead! I think that's a really cool and interesting form of balance.

In contrast, Conjure Elemental is both stronger and I think somewhat less well-balanced: there's more reward and the risk is less well-defined (is "hostile" just normal hostility where the elemental resents you and wants to go do its own thing, or is it going to take opportunity attacks to kamikaze you?). It also costs a 5th level slot and 1 minute to cast, plus a suitable elemental source (e.g. bonfire for Fire Elementals), so I don't think Conjure Elementals is poorly balanced (although Earth Elementals are poorly balanced, should be CR 7 probably, and the other elementals should perhaps be CR 6 as well), but I'm more eager to call out Summon Demon as better, more clever design.

To a certain extent I think Fear is also well-balanced, because it is powerful enough to tempt you to get up close so you can use its 30' cone well, but that also means that you're close enough for monsters to attack you if they make their save. I think that's a pretty cool balance method.

Find Familiar's balance is about trading time and spell component cost for utility. I think it's well-balanced in that respect, although the familiar list is not that well-balanced (owls are too dominant, should not have Flyby).

Protection From Evil* is a nice first-level spell. Niche but very useful against that niche, stays useful even in the late game. Well-balanced in my opinion. *I refuse to say "and Good" because the whole point is being protected from HARM, not Evil-the-alignment, and nobody wants to be protected from benefits ("Good")

[thinks] That's all I've got for now.