Is Battlemaster/Rogue as powerful as it seems

[nickl_2000]

It seems like 3 levels into battlemaster can make a gigantic different in the Rogue's overall damage. Sure, you lose 2d6 sneak attack, but in return you can learn 3 maneuvers (brace, repost, and something else) that can be used 4 times per short rest. This can increase to 5 times per short rest with the maneuver fighting style.

So, 5 times per short rest you can sneak attack during someone else's turn thus increasing your overall damage by a large amount when you are looking at most combat being 3-4 rounds.

What am I missing?

[Dork_Forge]

It's a really strong multiclass, the tradeoff is that you need a 3 level dip to get there. Remember you're going to delay your Rogue progression significantly but don't get Battle Master until level 3 Fighter. There's some value for the Rogue in the first two levels but it really depends on what playstyle they're going for. Action Surge isn't of much benefit to a Rogue as other builds since it's still your turn, you could ready an attack I guess but that seems a ver lack lustre use of Action Surge.

If you're starting at higher level and can just slot it into your build then the trade off becomes a lot better.

[nickl_2000]

It's a really strong multiclass, the tradeoff is that you need a 3 level dip to get there. Remember you're going to delay your Rogue progression significantly but don't get Battle Master until level 3 Fighter. There's some value for the Rogue in the first two levels but it really depends on what playstyle they're going for. Action Surge isn't of much benefit to a Rogue as other builds since it's still your turn, you could ready an attack I guess but that seems a ver lack lustre use of Action Surge.

If you're starting at higher level and can just slot it into your build then the trade off becomes a lot better.

It's not entirely horrible since you can get the Fighting Style to give a Maneuver at level 1 as well, then you still get it once per short rest and shields/longbows (which is nothing to scoff at)

[RogueJK]

It's definitely strong, but there are some trade-offs:


1) Delay to your Rogue progression. You will want some of the later Rogue abilities ASAP, and waiting an extra 3-5 levels for Evasion, or Reliable Talent, or a cool subclass ability, can be tough. This is less of an issue on a Battlemaster with some Rogue levels, than on a Rogue with some Battlemaster levels.


2) Riposte takes up your Reaction, so that means you get the extra Sneak Attack, but then cannot utilize Uncanny Dodge that round. (Or other defensive Reactions like Scout's Skirmisher, Mastermind's Misdirection, or Arcane Trickster with Shield or Absorb Elements.)

This doesn't apply if you're only facing one enemy with one melee attack, because you can just Uncanny Dodge if they hit you or Riposte if they miss. But when dealing with an enemy with multiple attacks, or multiple enemies, you're faced with a choice between offense and defense, potentially inflicting extra damage but potentially taking extra damage. And melee Rogues are generally a bit squishy as it is.

Again, less of an issue on a Battlemaster with a few Rogue levels than otherwise.

[Dork_Forge]

It's not entirely horrible since you can get the Fighting Style to give a Maneuver at level 1 as well, then you still get it once per short rest and shields/longbows (which is nothing to scoff at)

To be honest I think I'd rather take any other style at the 1st level dip: straight damage boost with Dueling or TWF, accuracy with Archery, durability with Defense... A d6 maneuver once per short rest is not a great addition unless your table only usually has a single combat per short rest.

Shield are nice if you're going for a Rapier, but range and TWF on a Rogue are always tempting and sword and board isn't very compatable with a lot of Rogue subclasses.

Longbows are nice, but with the whole proficiency swapping stuff from Tasha's (if in play) not particularly difficult to get.

[Joe the Rat]

It's mostly about adding options.
Uncanny Dodge or Riposte, depending.
Take the miss, or Precision to squeeze a hit.
Trip for Easy Advantage.
etc.

So you have an intermittent 2/7 point damage deficit, to boost with a rare self-generated off-turn sneak, plus...
More HP, more armor and weapon options, including longbows, heavy crossbows (only one attack? who needs reloading?), and reach melee via whip.
A level 1 maneuver, or ride it out and take two-weapon fighting for +stat damage (reducing your per-turn deficit), Duelist for fixed damage, Defense for AC, etc)
Second Wind
Action Surge (to make up for a miss, or more likely to take advantage of the full range of action options for moving, disengaging, etc, depending on how your bonus got used)

I see it as a better later add on, or peppered between levels after 3 or so.

[Darthnazrael]

It's also worthwhile to push through to Fighter 5 for Extra Attack. Sure, you're not Sneak Attacking on both attacks, but you're not Sneak Attacking at all if you roll poorly and miss your single attack as a straight rogue. Doing this also makes your Action Surges better.

Other benefits, of course, are the additional armor and shield for most builds. A Fighting Style that didn't get mentioned above that really shines for Rogues is Thrown Weapon Fighting, which is basically essential for Soulknives, but also good with other Rogues.

[Dork_Forge]

It's also worthwhile to push through to Fighter 5 for Extra Attack. Sure, you're not Sneak Attacking on both attacks, but you're not Sneak Attacking at all if you roll poorly and miss your single attack as a straight rogue. Doing this also makes your Action Surges better.

Other benefits, of course, are the additional armor and shield for most builds. A Fighting Style that didn't get mentioned above that really shines for Rogues is Thrown Weapon Fighting, which is basically essential for Soulknives, but also good with other Rogues.

I'm curious, why do you think that it's essential for Soulknives? The added damage is nice, but that's about it, nice.

[Ali_face]

I played a Half-Elf "Iron Rogue" for awhile, and ended the campaign at 12th level with Battlemaster F6/ Swashbuckler R6. If the campaign had gone on any longer, I would have continued to focus on Rogue levels.

I really enjoyed the options available to the character, and the plethora of feats both classes get, let me really round him out.

Its not powerful in the same sense that a Coffeelock, or Scoradin are... but it was a versatile melee combatant with a ton of options every round that was also able to fill multiple roles inside and outside of combat as the party needed.

The off turn Sneak Attack with Riposte is real, and I enjoyed having either that or Uncanny Dodge as a reaction depending on whether they hit or missed me.

[Mr. Wonderful]

It seems like 3 levels into battlemaster can make a gigantic different in the Rogue's overall damage. Sure, you lose 2d6 sneak attack, but in return you can learn 3 maneuvers (brace, repost, and something else) that can be used 4 times per short rest. This can increase to 5 times per short rest with the maneuver fighting style.

So, 5 times per short rest you can sneak attack during someone else's turn thus increasing your overall damage by a large amount when you are looking at most combat being 3-4 rounds.

What am I missing?

I've always wanted to try Swashbuckler9/Battle Master11.

Cunning action, action surge, plenty of feats, multiple attacks, Riposte, sounds like fun!

[Darthnazrael]

I'm curious, why do you think that it's essential for Soulknives? The added damage is nice, but that's about it, nice.
Without Fighting Styles (preferably ThrWF and Dueling both), Soulknife damage is really lackluster. Sharpshooters and Blade Boomers will outpace them pretty handily otherwise.

And that's just assuming your DM has a very generous reading of Psychic Blades. Some interpret that you can't make a 2nd psychic blade to make an Extra Attack with, and pretty much any reading holds that you can't make OAs with Psychic Blades. ThrWF lets you draw and throw(/stab with) daggers in those scenarios.

[mistajames]

If Rogue takes 3 levels in Battlemaster, they can use tons of maneuvers to increase their DPR and CC! That's great! If Rogue takes 5 levels in Battlemaster, they get an ASI and Extra Attack! That's way more damage than another sneak attack die, and you can use it always! If Rogue takes 6 levels in Battlemaster, they get a bonus feat! CBE would probably add more damage than half a sneak attack die, what's the harm?

And before you know it, your "Rogue/Fighter" is actually a "Fighter/Rogue".

[nickl_2000]

I've got two PCs in my group (a fire based Wizard and a Warlock) who will be laying down fireballs soon. So, this is likely post evasion because otherwise that's scary.

[Dork_Forge]

Without Fighting Styles (preferably ThrWF and Dueling both), Soulknife damage is really lackluster. Sharpshooters and Blade Boomers will outpace them pretty handily otherwise.

And that's just assuming your DM has a very generous reading of Psychic Blades. Some interpret that you can't make a 2nd psychic blade to make an Extra Attack with, and pretty much any reading holds that you can't make OAs with Psychic Blades. ThrWF lets you draw and throw(/stab with) daggers in those scenarios.

Your damage is basically like any two weapon fighting Rogue, but better since it's inherently psychic and you automatically add your mod to the bonus attack.

For tier one there's no real competition here, after that the Sharpshooters need to contend with the penalty (Rogues don't make good SS builds to begin with, since they lack extra attack and rely on hitting once a round to get their central damage feature off), so let's compare directly to blade boomers (I'm not counting the rider in this, because there's no reason to assume it or a reasonable rate per number of attacks to assume. I'm also ignoring Sneak because it should be equal for both Rogues):

At level 5 (when the cantrip actually adds damage):

Soulknife: 1d6+1d4+8= 14

Boomer: 2d8+4=13

At level 8 (bumping Dex on both)

Soulknife: 1d6+1d4+10=16

Boomer: 2d8+5=14

So for basically the entire most played level range the Soul knife actually has an edge in just numbers, but also carry the edge in damage type and ability to switch hit.

At level 11 (BB damage bump, assuming Fighting Initiate (Thrown and Dueling respectively) at 10th ASI)

Soulknife: 1d6+1d4+14=18

Boomer: 3d8+7=20.5

So it's here we've had the breakpoint for a BB Rogue to break ahead, and it's not by much. It's hard to make a straight comparison against a nonsubclass Rogue, but the only subclasses that really add damage that I can think of are Phantom (against another target) and Arcane Trickster (if they use Shadowblade, which has it's own costs and limitations). One thing of note here though is that accuracy wise the Soulknife can add to a d10 to their to hit on a miss.

The next tier break will bump up the boomer damage another 4.5, but it's not a bad showing for the Soulknife and if they do grab Dueling and Thrown, then they keep up until tier 4.

[Gignere]

Your damage is basically like any two weapon fighting Rogue, but better since it's inherently psychic and you automatically add your mod to the bonus attack.

For tier one there's no real competition here, after that the Sharpshooters need to contend with the penalty (Rogues don't make good SS builds to begin with, since they lack extra attack and rely on hitting once a round to get their central damage feature off), so let's compare directly to blade boomers (I'm not counting the rider in this, because there's no reason to assume it or a reasonable rate per number of attacks to assume. I'm also ignoring Sneak because it should be equal for both Rogues):

At level 5 (when the cantrip actually adds damage):

Soulknife: 1d6+1d4+8= 14

Boomer: 2d8+4=13

At level 8 (bumping Dex on both)

Soulknife: 1d6+1d4+10=16

Boomer: 2d8+5=14

So for basically the entire most played level range the Soul knife actually has an edge in just numbers, but also carry the edge in damage type and ability to switch hit.

At level 11 (BB damage bump, assuming Fighting Initiate (Thrown and Dueling respectively) at 10th ASI)

Soulknife: 1d6+1d4+14=18

Boomer: 3d8+7=20.5

So it's here we've had the breakpoint for a BB Rogue to break ahead, and it's not by much. It's hard to make a straight comparison against a nonsubclass Rogue, but the only subclasses that really add damage that I can think of are Phantom (against another target) and Arcane Trickster (if they use Shadowblade, which has it's own costs and limitations). One thing of note here though is that accuracy wise the Soulknife can add to a d10 to their to hit on a miss.

The next tier break will bump up the boomer damage another 4.5, but it's not a bad showing for the Soulknife and if they do grab Dueling and Thrown, then they keep up until tier 4.

What if the boomer gets sentinel for off turn sneaks? I don’t think the soul knife can do that at all.

[stoutstien]

Has 5e been out long enough for there to be classic combos? If so this is one of them. I have one player who had one at the table within a month of the PHB coming out.

Fighter/rogue have a lot of synergy and multiple breaking points that all work equally well just for different reasons. They both have lackluster progression after lv 10-11 so while there nothing wrong with a single class character in either one the flexibility of mixing the two is always tempting.

[da newt]

BM Rogue is a nice combo, but it isn't OP. There are a bunch of ways to build an effective melee rogue with different strengths/weaknesses. You end up with a well rounded PC but one that's not as focused as a straight Rogue or Combatant.

Riposte is a great way to get an off turn attack and with BM you can increase your AC and HP quite a bit too. If your table allows for frequent short rests, then you can burn through Superiority Dice freely during most encounters. Of note, Riposte uses your reaction as does Uncanny Dodge and Evasion.

The real question for me with a BM/Rogue build is how many levels of each, and in what order. Is going beyond BM 3 worth it? For 3 more lvls you get 2 ASI and a second attack every round ...

Also, what feats/ASI and what Rogue subclass?

BTW if your table allows the Revenant Blade feat, it's superior to DW feat and 2WFS.