D&D 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Showdown Series: Tasha's Summoning Spells

[Bilbron]

How do you feel about the new suite of Summon spells from Tasha's Cauldron of Everything? Personally, I love them! But which one do I like the best? Watch to find out!

Note: Ack, was looking at D&D Wiki again and it said no Fly speed on Summon Elemental (gotta stop using this!!!), but now I look at Tasha's and it does get a Fly and Burrow speed. So it's better than I said here, but still not all that great IMO!

13:31

https://youtu.be/Xwev08g61M8

[Meichrob7]

Oh this Seems like it’ll be a joy to watch. I do love the showdown series.

Edit: I mostly agree with the video. The conjure X spells are all pretty directly comparable since they all have the same base foundation, so it’s pretty simple to just evaluate the areas where the differ.

I will say it may have been worth briefly touching on and judging them based a little more off the classes that get them. You did that for conjure celestial in reference to clerics not having much competition for fifth level slots, which I mostly agree with but would point out some good lower level spells will benefit from being upcast to fifth, but I think it could have been relevant for some other spells as well.

If you’re making a summoner then any spell on the Druid list has to be looked at through the lenses of “this player is probably picking circle of Shepard so how does this benefit from that?”.

You admittedly do clarify multiple times that you’re looking at them mostly in a vacuum so maybe it was a conscious choice to leave the class discussion out, but personally I think it’s pretty relevant.

[Bilbron]

Oh this Seems like it’ll be a joy to watch. I do love the showdown series.

Edit: I mostly agree with the video. The conjure X spells are all pretty directly comparable since they all have the same base foundation, so it’s pretty simple to just evaluate the areas where the differ.

I will say it may have been worth briefly touching on and judging them based a little more off the classes that get them. You did that for conjure celestial in reference to clerics not having much competition for fifth level slots, which I mostly agree with but would point out some good lower level spells will benefit from being upcast to fifth, but I think it could have been relevant for some other spells as well.

If you’re making a summoner then any spell on the Druid list has to be looked at through the lenses of “this player is probably picking circle of Shepard so how does this benefit from that?”.

You admittedly do clarify multiple times that you’re looking at them mostly in a vacuum so maybe it was a conscious choice to leave the class discussion out, but personally I think it’s pretty relevant.Fair points... my defense is that this would have made the video longer, plus I'm not super familiar with Druids so it would have been a lot more work on my end in terms of researching and all that. I'm a bit more familiar with Clerics so know how bad their 5th level spells are. I'll definitely get to videos about Druids one of these days and I'll try to work in these nuances then.

Thanks again for your engagement and feedback!

[MaxWilson]

Summon Shadowspawn: according to my copy of Tasha's, the Dreadful Scream affects all creatures within 30' of the spawn, not 10'. That is much, much better, good enough to justify casting Summon Shadowspawn all by itself, especially at 3rd level. It's a bigger area than Fear (which is just a 30' cone, not a 65' diameter) and you get a free tank out of it too, especially if you pick the Despair variant to slow enemy movement to a crawl.

Fourth level is indeed a sweet spot, but there are exceptions: as noted above, Summon Shadowspawn works well at 3rd level, and Summon Beast is a worthwhile cheap 2nd level spell slot for a Druid to use as a scout (or scouting buddy for a familiar) or advantage-granter or cheap meatshield, etc. And sixth-level slots are often not amazing, especially for e.g. clerics, and I'd probably consider casting Summon Celestial VI. Potentially I'd even consider Summon Aberration/Undead VI as a wizard in lieu of Conjure Elemental, especially if I want damage more than tanking or Mass Suggestion.

I still think you are overrating regeneration on Summon Aberration though. In a tough surprise fight, regeneration on a 40-60 HP chassis doesn't have time to matter--it's the equivalent of maybe 70 HP. Outside of a tough surprise fight where you don't have time to conjure an elemental, Conjure Elemental's higher HP (90 to 127), damage resistance, and special abilities are generally better, unless you're doing dozens of trivial fights where the slaad winds up having effectively 300+ HP--but when would that ever happen in actual play? (The fact that the elemental hangs around after your concentration is broken is both good and bad: good if you can exploit its continued presence on the battlefield as enemies continue to attack it while you now cast a different concentration spell, bad if it winds up attacking you instead. Call it a wash.)

So anyway, regeneration is great on a chassis with PC-class durability but on 40-60 HP summon it isn't great, at least not in the kinds of encounters I am imagining right now in my head/the kind I tend to create for 7th+ level PCs.

[Bilbron]

Summon Shadowspawn: according to my copy of Tasha's, the Dreadful Scream affects all creatures within 30' of the spawn, not 10'. That is much, much better, good enough to justify casting Summon Shadowspawn all by itself, especially at 3rd level. It's a bigger area than Fear (which is just a 30' cone, not a 65' diameter) and you get a free tank out of it too, especially if you pick the Despair variant to slow enemy movement to a crawl.

Fourth level is indeed a sweet spot, but there are exceptions: as noted above, Summon Shadowspawn works well at 3rd level, and Summon Beast is a worthwhile cheap 2nd level spell slot for a Druid to use as a scout (or scouting buddy for a familiar) or advantage-granter or cheap meatshield, etc. And sixth-level slots are often not amazing, especially for e.g. clerics, and I'd probably consider casting Summon Celestial VI. Potentially I'd even consider Summon Aberration/Undead VI as a wizard in lieu of Conjure Elemental, especially if I want damage more than tanking or Mass Suggestion.

I still think you are overrating regeneration on Summon Aberration though. In a tough surprise fight, regeneration on a 40-60 HP chassis doesn't have time to matter--it's the equivalent of maybe 70 HP. Outside of a tough surprise fight where you don't have time to conjure an elemental, Conjure Elemental's higher HP (90 to 127), damage resistance, and special abilities are generally better, unless you're doing dozens of trivial fights where the slaad winds up having effectively 300+ HP--but when would that ever happen in actual play? (The fact that the elemental hangs around after your concentration is broken is both good and bad: good if you can exploit its continued presence on the battlefield as enemies continue to attack it while you now cast a different concentration spell, bad if it winds up attacking you instead. Call it a wash.)

So anyway, regeneration is great on a chassis with PC-class durability but on 40-60 HP summon it isn't great, at least not in the kinds of encounters I am imagining right now in my head/the kind I tend to create for 7th+ level PCs.I think you have to use the Slaad form opportunistically and not throw it out there if it's just going to get chewed up in a round or two. In that case, I would opt for the Beholderkin and set up a defensive, obscured position to take advantage of its half-cover and letting it pump out ranged attacks under safer conditions.

I get that the Elemental is awesome if you have time to prep it... my opinion on its viability is certainly influenced by my own campaign where this spell is borderline useless as we never turn over lairs and are typically attacked while traveling.

Gah, I swear this is the last time I use D&D Wiki, it says 10' radius. It's certainly a lot better at 30', and I agree that this power alone makes a 3rd level Summon Shadowspawn make sense.

[MaxWilson]

I think you have to use the Slaad form opportunistically and not throw it out there if it's just going to get chewed up in a round or two. In that case, I would opt for the Beholderkin and set up a defensive, obscured position to take advantage of its half-cover and letting it pump out ranged attacks under safer conditions.

Gah, I swear this is the last time I use D&D Wiki, it says 10' radius. It's certainly a lot better at 30', and I agree that this power alone makes a 3rd level Summon Shadowspawn make sense.

Out of curiosity, what's the scenario that would be an ideal opportunity for the Slaad form, assuming you have both Summon Aberration and Conjure Elemental prepared?

[Bilbron]

Out of curiosity, what's the scenario that would be an ideal opportunity for the Slaad form, assuming you have both Summon Aberration and Conjure Elemental prepared?Your Elemental dies in combat and you need a combat cast to keep a Summon on the field. Or you're attacked while traveling and not prepared for extended combat. And while I generally prefer having a Beholderkin, I sometimes feel the need to support our Paladin on the front line as he's our only real option there (though I now have a Shield Guardian so I'll probably send him out there with Polymorph to buffer his HP).

But I also don't prep Conjure Elemental. I find it more efficient to prep just one Summon given the tightness of preps, and I want a combat cast. And I actually don't have 5th level spells yet, lol, but strongly prefer Wall of Force, Wall of Stone, and Transmute Rock (killer no concentration control for Underdark). I may squeeze it in though, we'll see.

[stoutstien]

Out of curiosity, what's the scenario that would be an ideal opportunity for the Slaad form, assuming you have both Summon Aberration and Conjure Elemental prepared?

Entirely table dependant, but I do regularly use NPCs that have some form of hp recovery so the health regain prevention rider was something a few of my players are excited about.

[MaxWilson]

Your Elemental dies in combat and you need a combat cast to keep a Summon on the field. Or you're attacked while traveling and not prepared for extended combat.

In that scenario, Summon Shadowspawn looks better to me, since the Slaad's regen won't have time to be relevant but the Despair Spirit's speed reduction and Fear will. (And Summon Shadowspawn is significantly cheaper if you're using PHB spell slots instead of DMG spell points.)


Entirely table dependant, but I do regularly use NPCs that have some form of hp recovery so the health regain prevention rider was something a few of my players are excited about.

I could see that.

[Bilbron]

In that scenario, Summon Shadowspawn looks better to me, since the Slaad's regen won't have time to be relevant but the Despair Spirit's speed reduction and Fear will. (And Summon Shadowspawn is significantly cheaper if you're using PHB spell slots instead of DMG spell points.)But outside of that scenario, SS never gives me a ranged or flying option, SA gives me both in the same beholderkin, and that's the option I most prefer.

[MaxWilson]

But outside of that scenario, SS never gives me a ranged or flying option, SA gives me both in the same beholderkin, and that's the option I most prefer.

So it's mostly about the versatility, and avoiding having to prep multiple summoning spells, and not really about the Slaad's regeneration per se? I can see that as a justifiable choice, if your main goal is to add to your DPR instead of to add a party tank.

Just want to be clear how much weight that regen really has in your thinking, because from what I've heard you say before it seems like you value it highly, but from what you're saying here it sounds like it's more about the beholderkin.

[Bilbron]

So it's mostly about the versatility, and avoiding having to prep multiple summoning spells, and not really about the Slaad's regeneration per se? I can see that as a justifiable choice, if your main goal is to add to your DPR instead of to add a party tank.

Just want to be clear how much weight that regen really has in your thinking, because from what I've heard you say before it seems like you value it highly, but from what you're saying here it sounds like it's more about the beholderkin.

Yeah, pretty much. I think it's the best melee combatant as well, since none of the other Tasha's Summons have that regen so are even squishier, and feel compelled to point that out, but it's not my preferred playstyle. It's literally the only Flying Ranged option available to wizards (except Summon Fiend which I dislike for other reasons), and I need that.

[MaxWilson]

Yeah, pretty much. I think it's the best melee combatant as well, since none of the other Tasha's Summons have that regen so are even squishier, and feel compelled to point that out, but it's not my preferred playstyle. It's literally the only Flying Ranged option available to wizards (except Summon Fiend which I dislike for other reasons), and I need that.

I have a somewhat different opinion.

When it comes to melee I'd rather have a Shadowspawn than a Slaad. Fear imposes disadvantage and restricts movement, which does more to reduce enemy DPR than 5 HP of regen does, and that 20' speed penalty on Despair spirit is great for the party if you want it to tank, while bonus action Hide on the Fear spirit (in dim light or darkness) actually isn't terrible for avoiding monster attacks if you don't want it to tank, especially considering the Perception penalty for monsters relying on Darkvision in darkness. Alternatively, you could also use it to increase your DPR (via opportunity attack) instead of using it defensively. And again, Summon Shadowspawn is cheaper than Summon Aberration, so you can use it more freely especially around level 7ish.

Summon Fey also has some nice melee potential which I also feel are better than the Slaad's. And BTW, once Planar Binding is online, the Fey spirit is eligible to have its duration extended massively, unlike Shadowspawns or Aberrations, so that's something else to consider. Consider the potential for a semi-permanently-bound AC 20, 80 HP teleporting Fey Spirit attacking four times a round for ~18 HP per hit AND charming creatures that it can't simply Teleport away from.

[Mitchellnotes]

Yeah, pretty much. I think it's the best melee combatant as well, since none of the other Tasha's Summons have that regen so are even squishier, and feel compelled to point that out, but it's not my preferred playstyle. It's literally the only Flying Ranged option available to wizards (except Summon Fiend which I dislike for other reasons), and I need that.

While it does take a 6th level slot, i would put it out as an option to consider for warlocks. Due to their funky casting, they wont be able to upcast the other options (being stuck at level 5, ugghh). At an hour long, and doing decent damage, it wouldnt be a bad option for them if looking for a summon

[Gyor]

Oh this Seems like it’ll be a joy to watch. I do love the showdown series.

Edit: I mostly agree with the video. The conjure X spells are all pretty directly comparable since they all have the same base foundation, so it’s pretty simple to just evaluate the areas where the differ.

I will say it may have been worth briefly touching on and judging them based a little more off the classes that get them. You did that for conjure celestial in reference to clerics not having much competition for fifth level slots, which I mostly agree with but would point out some good lower level spells will benefit from being upcast to fifth, but I think it could have been relevant for some other spells as well.

If you’re making a summoner then any spell on the Druid list has to be looked at through the lenses of “this player is probably picking circle of Shepard so how does this benefit from that?”.

You admittedly do clarify multiple times that you’re looking at them mostly in a vacuum so maybe it was a conscious choice to leave the class discussion out, but personally I think it’s pretty relevant.

I'll also note Paladins and Divine Soul Sorcerers also can get Summon Celestial. It great for both. Divine Soul Sorcerer can extend it and make extra 5th level slots. The Defender also gets extra AC which he missed. Btw because it's large you can use it (or the Summon Fiend's fiend) as a mount. Also art for Summon Celestial is epic, but funny because the Celestial is naked with no weapon and his Summoner is wearing no armour so I've nick named the art Summon Booty Call.

The Shadow Sorcerer should have gotten Summon Shadow and the Cleric Summon Undead.

Also Summon Fey is way more amazing for Fey Wander Rangers then almost anyone else because they get a free casting and can cast with no concentration in exchange for shorter duration.

[Gyor]

Yeah, pretty much. I think it's the best melee combatant as well, since none of the other Tasha's Summons have that regen so are even squishier, and feel compelled to point that out, but it's not my preferred playstyle. It's literally the only Flying Ranged option available to wizards (except Summon Fiend which I dislike for other reasons), and I need that.

The Defender Celestial has temp hit points it can dish out and higher AC so it's capable of tanking and buffing other tanks or squishy characters with temp HPs.

The Defender has 13 + spell level AC, for a 5th spell slot that is 18 AC, the same as Plate Armour, at 6th level spell slot it's 19 AC (the same AC as a Balor & Pit Fiend) and three 1D10 + 9 radiant damage attacks each of which grant itself or another character 1D10 temp hps. With an 9th level spell slot it has 80hps, 22 AC (the same AC as an Ancient Red Dragon), 4 attacks that dish out 1D10 + 12 radiant damage and 1D10 Temp hps with each attack, and it can heal 2D8 +9 hps once per day. It's not that squishy.

[Bilbron]

I have a somewhat different opinion.

When it comes to melee I'd rather have a Shadowspawn than a Slaad. Fear imposes disadvantage and restricts movement, which does more to reduce enemy DPR than 5 HP of regen does, and that 20' speed penalty on Despair spirit is great for the party if you want it to tank, while bonus action Hide on the Fear spirit (in dim light or darkness) actually isn't terrible for avoiding monster attacks if you don't want it to tank, especially considering the Perception penalty for monsters relying on Darkvision in darkness. Alternatively, you could also use it to increase your DPR (via opportunity attack) instead of using it defensively. And again, Summon Shadowspawn is cheaper than Summon Aberration, so you can use it more freely especially around level 7ish.

Summon Fey also has some nice melee potential which I also feel are better than the Slaad's. And BTW, once Planar Binding is online, the Fey spirit is eligible to have its duration extended massively, unlike Shadowspawns or Aberrations, so that's something else to consider. Consider the potential for a semi-permanently-bound AC 20, 80 HP teleporting Fey Spirit attacking four times a round for ~18 HP per hit AND charming creatures that it can't simply Teleport away from.
Yes, sure it does... 1x/day, EOTS. I value the 5 hp/round way more, given that the point is to keep this Summon over multiple combats over the next hour. Becoming enamored of a one-shot ability that is EOTS and analyzing as if its present the entire duration of the summons is a mistake, IMO. I'm enamored of the regen, but at least it's always on and saves many healing resources (again presuming you expect to keep the Summon for the full hour).

As well, over 1000 battles, quite a few will be vs. Frightened immunity and close to 0 will be against something that will block SA's regen.

And, of course, this analysis is melee only and once you factor in that SA also offers a Ranged + Fly, it's absolutely no contest for me.

Planar Binding + Fey can be pretty sweet, nice call there.


The Defender Celestial has temp hit points it can dish out and higher AC so it's capable of tanking and buffing other tanks or squishy characters with temp HPs.

The Defender has 13 + spell level AC, for a 5th spell slot that is 18 AC, the same as Plate Armour, at 6th level spell slot it's 19 AC (the same AC as a Balor & Pit Fiend) and three 1D10 + 9 radiant damage attacks each of which grant itself or another character 1D10 temp hps. With an 9th level spell slot it has 80hps, 22 AC (the same AC as an Ancient Red Dragon), 4 attacks that dish out 1D10 + 12 radiant damage and 1D10 Temp hps with each attack, and it can heal 2D8 +9 hps once per day. It's not that squishy.

It's really solid and I like it a lot even compared to upcast Spirit Guardians. 5th level cast is probably the tiebreaker for me vs. SA.

[Meichrob7]

As well, over 1000 battles, quite a few will be vs. Frightened resistance and close to 0 will be against something that will block SA's regen.


God there is an annoying amount of creatures straight immune to fear effects, and it’s often something on any boss monster of a dungeon or campaign.

Having played a level 3-11 game as a conquest Paladin, it’s a serious issue and is definitely worth factoring in when considering the value of the different summons.

[MaxWilson]

Yes, sure it does... 1x/day, EOTS. I value the 5 hp/round way more, given that the point is to keep this Summon over multiple combats over the next hour. Becoming enamored of a one-shot ability that is EOTS and analyzing as if its present the entire duration of the summons is a mistake, IMO. I'm enamored of the regen, but at least it's always on and saves many healing resources (again presuming you expect to keep the Summon for the full hour).


But when are you actually going to use this summon for multiple combats over an hour, in a scenario where Conjure Elemental wouldn't work even better? I keep trying to get an answer on this but I feel like you never have answered it. Either you foresee fights incoming or you don't.


As well, over 1000 battles, quite a few will be vs. Frightened immunity and close to 0 will be against something that will block SA's regen.


The regen only works when you're at positive HP. You've only got 40 HP. In 1000 battles at my table, probably at least 500 of them would have monsters capable of knocking out all 40 of those HP in one round. That's why I'm trying to ask you what your table is like that makes you love this regen so much? Is it, like, 10th level party vs. a Hill Giant? Vs. two Vampire Spawns? Vs. a lone Frost Salamander? I'm trying to guess what these fights look like based on when a 40 HP, AC 15 Slaad-ish minion could draw a monster's attention and still possibly survive more than one fight with high probability. What scenarios are you expecting that make the slaad the best melee summon?

[Darthnazrael]

Since these creatures are a direct result of a spell, is their damage considered magical? If so, I think that would dramatically improve the value of those that deal bludgeoning/piercing/slashing damage, as magical damage of those types are among the least resisted/immune in the game.

[Bilbron]

But when are you actually going to use this summon for multiple combats over an hour, in a scenario where Conjure Elemental wouldn't work even better? I keep trying to get an answer on this but I feel like you never have answered it. Either you foresee fights incoming or you don't.Every one, because it will be the one I memorize due to its flexibility in offering BOTH a combat cast AND the ability to last an hour. If I take CE, then I also need a combat cast Summon, and I don't have the room for two Summons. If my only criteria was lasting the full hour, then yes, CE is better, but I also have the criteria of "must be combat cast" so CE loses.

I keep saying I'm taking the spell for flexibility. You keep saying "but isn't CE/SS better in this specific scenario?" Yes, but I'm taking the single spell that's better, as I see it, over 1000 scenarios. That CE is better in some of those scenarios and a nonfactor in others doesn't make it more appealing to me than the one that is weaker in some scenarios but a factor in all of them. It's the same reason I prefer Slow (and make room for it in my preps) over Hypnotic Pattern (which never makes the cut).

Since these creatures are a direct result of a spell, is their damage considered magical? If so, I think that would dramatically improve the value of those that deal bludgeoning/piercing/slashing damage, as magical damage of those types are among the least resisted/immune in the game.No, if it were magical damage, it would say so in the stat block, like it does for other creatures like Pit Fiends.


The regen only works when you're at positive HP. You've only got 40 HP. In 1000 battles at my table, probably at least 500 of them would have monsters capable of knocking out all 40 of those HP in one round. That's why I'm trying to ask you what your table is like that makes you love this regen so much? Is it, like, 10th level party vs. a Hill Giant? Vs. two Vampire Spawns? Vs. a lone Frost Salamander? I'm trying to guess what these fights look like based on when a 40 HP, AC 15 Slaad-ish minion could draw a monster's attention and still possibly survive more than one fight with high probability. What scenarios are you expecting that make the slaad the best melee summon?It's better than all other Tasha's Summons which are even squishier as they have similar AC/HP but no regen. Anything that chews up a Slaadikin will chew up any other Tasha's Summon even faster. Yes, they lack abilities that will confer frightened/poisoned which would cause them to sometimes, with good rolls, against susceptible enemies, be attacked at disadvantage. They make up for this, and then some, by having an always-on regen that isn't subject to dice rolls, in my view.

And, of course, as I've mentioned, if it's too hot for a melee Summon to long survive, SA gives me the option of a Flying Ranged attack that can keep it out of melee and still pumping out damage. Which you can't get with any of the other Tasha's Summons.

We are clear that I say it's only the best melee TASHA'S Summon? I admit CE is stronger once cast.

[MaxWilson]

It's better than all other Tasha's Summons which are even squishier as they have similar AC/HP but no regen. Anything that chews up a Slaadikin will chew up any other Tasha's Summon even faster. Yes, they lack abilities that will confer frightened/poisoned which would cause them to sometimes, with good rolls, be attacked at disadvantage. They make up for this, and then some, by having an always-on regen that isn't subject to dice rolls, in my view.

Regen is EXTREMELY subject to die rolls because it's contingent on surviving long enough to regenerate. Put the Slaad up against a Fire Giant for example and see how long it lasts. At least a Mirthful Fey (for example) would have a decent chance to impose charm and disadvantage, and a Fear Spirit would have a decent chance to Hide after imposing disadvantage (about 50%ish considering Perception disadvantage from dim light, unless DM rules that Perception via hearing alone is feasible in this scenario). The Slaad though is just going to eat two greatsword attacks and be immediately dead with high probability. His regen matters only if the dice greatly favor him.


We are clear that I say it's only the best melee TASHA'S Summon? I admit CE is stronger once cast.

Yes, we're drilling down on the assertion that it's the best Tasha's melee summons, specifically "if you get surprised by monsters, can't withdraw for a minute to regroup, and need a melee summon nownownow, why do you claim that Summon Aberration is better than the other Tasha's summons even in that scenario?" It comes down to your claim that the Slaad is the best tank because of its regen, but is it?

If you were just saying "I want a flying ranged attacker, and the fact that I have an option for a pretty decent regenerating melee tank without preparing an extra spell is just gravy," we wouldn't be having this conversation. Or at least, not this branch of the conversation.

[Bilbron]

Regen is EXTREMELY subject to die rolls because it's contingent on surviving long enough to regenerate. Put the Slaad up against a Fire Giant for example and see how long it lasts. At least a Mirthful Fey (for example) would have a decent chance to impose charm and disadvantage, and a Fear Spirit would have a decent chance to Hide after imposing disadvantage (about 50%ish considering Perception disadvantage from dim light, unless DM rules that Perception via hearing alone is feasible in this scenario). The Slaad though is just going to eat two greatsword attacks and be immediately dead with high probability. His regen matters only if the dice greatly favor him.
So in that case I'd just take advantage of the Flying Ranged attack option. I'm not the sort who uses spells in a suboptimal manner so I can't see myself throwing down a Summon that will be ineffective or short-lived. Plus I'll be supporting it... it doesn't have to provide for its defense entirely out of its own suite of abilities.

Yes, we're drilling down on the assertion that it's the best Tasha's melee summons, specifically "if you get surprised by monsters, can't withdraw for a minute to regroup, and need a melee summon nownownow, why do you claim that Summon Aberration is better than the other Tasha's summons even in that scenario?" It comes down to your claim that the Slaad is the best tank because of its regen, but is it?

If you were just saying "I want a flying ranged attacker, and the fact that I have an option for a pretty decent regenerating melee tank without preparing an extra spell is just gravy," we wouldn't be having this conversation. Or at least, not this branch of the conversation.Wow, I kind of feel like that's exactly what I've been saying, lol.

Even if you make the case that Fey or whatever is a better melee summon in some cases, I don't believe it's true over 1000 cases. I prefer the regen over 1000 cases. I can see you disagree, and am happy to agree to that.

[MaxWilson]

Wow, I kind of feel like that's exactly what I've been saying, lol.

Apparently I've been misled by statements like "I think it's the best melee combatant as well, since none of the other Tasha's Summons have that regen so are even squishier" and "It's better than all other Tasha's Summons which are even squishier".


Even if you make the case that Fey or whatever is a better melee summon in some cases, I don't believe it's true over 1000 cases. I prefer the regen over 1000 cases. I can see you disagree, and am happy to agree to that.

I just wish I could get you to describe what your mental model of those 1000 cases looks like, because I have trouble coming up with even 10-50 cases out of 1000 where the Slaad's regen makes it the best, in a scenario that I constructed for a level 7+ party. I tend not to do ambushes in the first place, but even if I did (e.g. at night while you're on watch, two Quicklings buzz in and start robbing you blind--if you wake your companions and attack them, it turns out there's a Giant Ape supporting the Quicklings) the Slaad's regeneration would still not be as impactful as teleport/charm/fear/movement reduction.

Edit: do you concede that the Slaad would be squishier than a level 4 Mirthful Fey or Fear Spirit against the Quicklings and Giant Ape? If not maybe this is a tactical disagreement after all, not just one about encounter construction.

[sambojin]

Summon Beast is pretty amazing. It gives you so much extra gas in the tank as a druid in many sorts of campaigns.

In many ways, it's kinda like Extra Attack in combat focused situations, but you get it at level 3. Having a small 18Str mage hand/ shover is never bad for versatility either.

It's not as good as Conjure Animals, but it's 100% reliable, has pretty good to-hit at around lvls3-7, and flyby attack is always safe to use.

It's just a pity that there's so much competition for level 2 prep slots as a Druid. But it's kind of hard to not prepare, because it is so good at what it does. Never run out of summons again :)

[Bilbron]

Apparently I've been misled by statements like "I think it's the best melee combatant as well, since none of the other Tasha's Summons have that regen so are even squishier" and "It's better than all other Tasha's Summons which are even squishier".



I just wish I could get you to describe what your mental model of those 1000 cases looks like, because I have trouble coming up with even 10-50 cases out of 1000 where the Slaad's regen makes it the best, in a scenario that I constructed for a level 7+ party. I tend not to do ambushes in the first place, but even if I did (e.g. at night while you're on watch, two Quicklings buzz in and start robbing you blind--if you wake your companions and attack them, it turns out there's a Giant Ape supporting the Quicklings) the Slaad's regeneration would still not be as impactful as teleport/charm/fear/movement reduction.

Edit: do you concede that the Slaad would be squishier than a level 4 Mirthful Fey or Fear Spirit against the Quicklings and Giant Ape? If not maybe this is a tactical disagreement after all, not just one about encounter construction.
I consider those opinions to be facets of a larger main point that shouldn't be lost in defending one of those facets. I do think it's the best melee combatant and am willing to defend this claim, but that particular point of discussion shouldn't be assumed to take on larger importance in my holistic view, which is what I thought was clearly communicated.

Just looked up Quicklings so it's tough for me to analyze how such a fight would unfold off the top of my head, but my first instinct is "Why would I use a Summon or even a 4th level spell against such clowns?" I'd handle them with cantrips. If a Giant Ape shows up, I'd let my party engage and perhaps support them with a Slow (if it looks like they're having trouble) and, of course, cantrips.

In regards to 1000 battles, how many of them are against charm/fear immunity? That's a start. Then add in any scenario where you want to hold the line and provide a target for attacks which marginalizes teleportation, so there's a few more. Then scenarios where friendly fire is an issue so you can't use the AOE Fear effect, so there's a few more. Then all the scenarios which deliver enough damage to kill the non-Slaad but in which the regen provides the marginal HP to survive. Then all the scenarios where the Summon ALMOST dies but then doesn't and tops itself off with HP before the next encounter if it's SA or consumes healing resources if not SA (or just goes into next battle injured and squishier). Then all the scenarios where the enemy has regen or healing themselves, a few more. I suspect I could think of more with a few minutes of consideration.

[MaxWilson]

Summon Beast is pretty amazing. It gives you so much extra gas in the tank as a druid in many sorts of campaigns.

In many ways, it's kinda like Extra Attack in combat focused situations, but you get it at level 3. Having a small 18Str mage hand/ shover is never bad for versatility either.

That's a nice way to look at it, especially for a Moon Druid. It's nice too that it gives an extra potential opportunity attack.


I consider those opinions to be facets of a larger main point that shouldn't be lost in defending one of those facets. I do think it's the best melee combatant and am willing to defend this claim, but that particular point of discussion shouldn't be assumed to take on larger importance in my holistic view, which is what I thought was clearly communicated.

Just looked up Quicklings so it's tough for me to analyze how such a fight would unfold off the top of my head, but my first instinct is "Why would I use a Summon or even a 4th level spell against such clowns?" I'd handle them with cantrips. If a Giant Ape shows up, I'd let my party engage and perhaps support them with a Slow (if it looks like they're having trouble) and, of course, cantrips.

Okay, so... that's another non-answer unfortunately. Would you please give me one scenario, just one, that you think represents an average case where the Slaad is clearly the best Tasha's melee combatant?


In regards to 1000 battles, how many of them are against charm/fear immunity? That's a start. Then add in any scenario where you want to hold the line and provide a target for attacks which marginalizes teleportation, so there's a few more. Then scenarios where friendly fire is an issue so you can't use the AOE Fear effect, so there's a few more. Then all the scenarios which deliver enough damage to kill the non-Slaad but in which the regen provides the marginal HP to survive. Then all the scenarios where the Summon ALMOST dies but then doesn't and tops itself off with HP before the next encounter if it's SA or consumes healing resources if not SA (or just goes into next battle injured and squishier). Then all the scenarios where the enemy has regen or healing themselves, a few more. I suspect I could think of more with a few minutes of thought.

You're adding these up, but you should be taking the intersection, not the union. E.g. if teleportation is relevant but Charm is not, Summon Fey is still tougher than a Slaad-like. What's this scenario you're imagining where the AC 16 40 HP teleporting charming (or darkness-creating) fey dies but the AC 15 40 HP Slaad-like lives long enough to regenerate? Just give me one example please. You didn't like the Quickling example (I suspect you're underestimating Quicklings BTW) so give me one representative example encounter, just one, where you think the Slaad would be the best.

[Bilbron]

You're adding these up, but you should be taking the intersection, not the union. E.g. if teleportation is relevant but Charm is not, Summon Fey is still tougher than a Slaad-like. What's this scenario you're imagining where the AC 16 40 HP teleporting charming (or darkness-creating) fey dies but the AC 15 40 HP Slaad-like lives long enough to regenerate? Just give me one example please. You didn't like the Quickling example (I suspect you're underestimating Quicklings BTW) so give me one example encounter, just one, where you think the Slaad would be the best.I don't really know monsters or build encounters in 5e, as I don't DM, so honestly the prospect of assembling a specific encounter is more work than I care to undertake to defend this claim. Perhaps your greater familiarity with encounter construction has provided you greater insight, and I'm wrong. But the general prospect of encountering fear/charm immunity is daunting in my view, and the general benefit of a surviving Summon topping off its own HP throughout its duration is attractive in my view. And all of this is subsumed by my demand for a Flying Ranged option, so is a marginal discussion that, even if I'm wrong, has no impact on my rating of the spells or which one I'd carry.

[MaxWilson]

I don't really know monsters or build encounters in 5e, as I don't DM, so honestly the prospect of assembling a specific encounter is more work than I care to undertake to defend this claim. Perhaps your greater familiarity with encounter construction has provided you greater insight, and I'm wrong. But the general prospect of encountering fear/charm immunity is daunting in my view, and the general benefit of a surviving Summon topping off its own HP throughout its duration is attractive in my view. And all of this is subsumed by my demand for a Flying Ranged option, so is a marginal discussion that, even if I'm wrong, has no impact on my rating of the spells or which one I'd carry.

Even if you don't DM, just describe an encounter your DM built for you where you did summon a Slaad or would have if you'd had the spell, so I can see what scenarios you're imagining.

[Bilbron]

Even if you don't DM, just describe an encounter your DM built for you where you did summon a Slaad or would have if you'd had the spell, so I can see what scenarios you're imagining.The one time I used it was against a group of Slowed Merregons after our Paladin went down, alongside my 10x Tiny Servants. They killed one and were hanging on to block their advance (Slaad took a couple of halberd hits but didn't go down), until I lost my concentration from a Titivilus strike.

[Thunderous Mojo]

But the general prospect of encountering fear/charm immunity is daunting in my view, and the general benefit of a surviving Summon topping off its own HP throughout its duration is attractive in my view.

The Robin Goodfellow, summoned by Conjure Fey offers quite a bit even when forced to battle creatures immune to the charmed condition.

Robin Goodfellow moves 40', teleports another 30' as a bonus action, and does piercing and force damage.

Out of combat, I think the Teleport, and the better score in Dex, makes Summon Fey better at scouting compared to the beholderkin option from Summon Aberration.

The Slaad from Summon Aberration, on the surface seems to be well suited to fight trolls. Both the trolls and the slaad will have around the same AC. The troll gets an extra bite attack,(compared to the base spell), but the Slaad shuts down the troll's regeneration.

This might be useful I'm a situation where the troll is either immune to energy types, due to something, or the environment makes using the appropriate spell impossible.

[MaxWilson]

The one time I used it was against a group of Slowed Merregons after our Paladin went down, alongside my 10x Tiny Servants. They killed one and were hanging on to block their advance (Slaad took a couple of halberd hits but didn't go down), until I lost my concentration from a Titivilus strike.

Thank you. Now at least I know where you're coming from. I may not agree that that's the best choice of spells to concentrate on (Fog Cloud is better at leveraging your Tiny Servants, unless you already have Pyrotechnics up; Hypnotic Pattern and Confusion are also excellent) but at least I can see why in that scenario you value Regeneration, since you're expecting the Slaad to take only a very small number of attacks while Tiny Servants soak the rest. Of course as you discovered, running out of HP isn't the only way to lose your Slaad...

At least now I have some idea what "1000" fights looks like in your head: a dozen Merregons and Titivilus vs. 4 PCs and 10 Tiny Servants.

[Valmark]

I really, really hate that the new spells (specifically the druid ones) don't have hit dice. If it wasn't that Conjure Beasts is available by level 3 I probably would use none of those on a Sheperd since the already existing summoning spells are usually better by far and they don't have that bug.

Otherwise... Eh, still dislike them for that. I'm too biased to prep them unless you have no other competitor.

[Bilbron]

Thank you. Now at least I know where you're coming from. I may not agree that that's the best choice of spells to concentrate on (Fog Cloud is better at leveraging your Tiny Servants, unless you already have Pyrotechnics up; Hypnotic Pattern and Confusion are also excellent) but at least I can see why in that scenario you value Regeneration, since you're expecting the Slaad to take only a very small number of attacks while Tiny Servants soak the rest. Of course as you discovered, running out of HP isn't the only way to lose your Slaad...

At least now I have some idea what "1000" fights looks like in your head: a dozen Merregons and Titivilus vs. 4 PCs and 10 Tiny Servants.I already had Obscurement on the field, of course, and Slow works against Obscured enemies. They had just ripped apart my Paladin with 3x Halberd attacks each so I wanted to Slow them as well to bring their attacks to a manageable level. I "expected" my Summon to take few attacks because I engineered the scenario such that he only took a few. That's what I meant by "support".

I don't carry Hypnotic Pattern btw... even if they weren't Obscured, would it have worked on the Merregons? When you don't know enemy defenses, rolling out a HP in a critical scenario in the Underdark is a risky proposition due to the ubiquity of Charm immunity. They were described to me as hollow suits of armor, so I'd suspect they were immune.

There are also plenty of combats out of those 1000 where a Flying Ranged option serves me the best, which SA offers besides the Slaad.

[Valmark]

I don't carry Hypnotic Pattern btw... even if they weren't Obscured, would it have worked on the Merregons? When you don't know enemy defenses, rolling out a HP in a critical scenario in the Underdark is a risky proposition due to the ubiquity of Charm immunity. They were described to me as hollow suits of armor, so I'd suspect they were immune.

*Takes a look* either they were homebrewed while using the same name or they weren't Merregons, because those are very much not hollow suits of armor.

[Bilbron]

*Takes a look* either they were homebrewed while using the same name or they weren't Merregons, because those are very much not hollow suits of armor.
I guess he described them differently then, as he told us they were Merregons afterwards.

[MaxWilson]

I already had Obscurement on the field, of course, and Slow works against Obscured enemies. They had just ripped apart my Paladin with 3x Halberd attacks each so I wanted to Slow them as well to bring their attacks to a manageable level. I "expected" my Summon to take few attacks because I engineered the scenario such that he only took a few. That's what I meant by "support".

I don't carry Hypnotic Pattern btw... even if they weren't Obscured, would it have worked on the Merregons? When you don't know enemy defenses, rolling out a HP in a critical scenario in the Underdark is a risky proposition due to the ubiquity of Charm immunity. They were described to me as hollow suits of armor, so I'd suspect they were immune.

Wait, hold on, it was your Slow spell? Was that after you became a Chonurgist? I thought you were still an Enchanter when this fight against Titivilus happened, so I'm confused how Summon Aberration and Slow can both be in play as your spells. Did you fight Titivilus twice?

And yes, fiends aren't generally immune to charm, so unless your DM had modified the Merregons Hypnotic Pattern would work on them. (Unusually for demons, they are immune to Fear though.) It's generally a good idea to carry a crowd control spell, and Hypnotic Pattern is excellent, but if you're concerned about condition immunities Confusion is also excellent and it works on everything including Titivilus (except of course things immune to low-level magic, like Rakshasas and Tiamat--and of course you still have to beat legendary resistance from creatures that have it). Slow is good too and BTW since it both reduces movement AND prevents reactions it makes melee kiting very easy (enemies can't catch up and hit you) you arguably don't even NEED a summoned tank at that point, especially since you had ten Tiny Servants in heavy obscurement to tank already.

[Bilbron]

Wait, hold on, it was your Slow spell? Was that after you became a Chonurgist? I thought you were still an Enchanter when this fight against Titivilus happened, so I'm confused how Summon Aberration and Slow can both be in play as your spells. Did you fight Titivilus twice?

And yes, fiends aren't generally immune to charm, so unless your DM had modified the Merregons Hypnotic Pattern would work on them. (Unusually for demons, they are immune to Fear though.) It's generally a good idea to carry a crowd control spell, and Hypnotic Pattern is excellent, but if you're concerned about condition immunities Confusion is also excellent and it works on everything including Titivilus (except of course things immune to low-level magic, like Rakshasas and Tiamat--and of course you still have to beat legendary resistance from creatures that have it). Slow is good too and BTW since it both reduces movement AND prevents reactions it makes melee kiting very easy (enemies can't catch up and hit you) you arguably don't even NEED a summoned tank at that point, especially since you had ten Tiny Servants in heavy obscurement to tank already.The Slow came out of my familiar's Spell Gem so used his concentration. Also, were defending a position and couldn't kite.

Good to know regarding Fiends. I've moved away from Enchantments though, and in any case had to drop one of Sleet Storm, Slow, or HP and it was HP.

[Gyor]

Every one, because it will be the one I memorize due to its flexibility in offering BOTH a combat cast AND the ability to last an hour. If I take CE, then I also need a combat cast Summon, and I don't have the room for two Summons. If my only criteria was lasting the full hour, then yes, CE is better, but I also have the criteria of "must be combat cast" so CE loses.

I keep saying I'm taking the spell for flexibility. You keep saying "but isn't CE/SS better in this specific scenario?" Yes, but I'm taking the single spell that's better, as I see it, over 1000 scenarios. That CE is better in some of those scenarios and a nonfactor in others doesn't make it more appealing to me than the one that is weaker in some scenarios but a factor in all of them. It's the same reason I prefer Slow (and make room for it in my preps) over Hypnotic Pattern (which never makes the cut).
No, if it were magical damage, it would say so in the stat block, like it does for other creatures like Pit Fiends.

It's better than all other Tasha's Summons which are even squishier as they have similar AC/HP but no regen. Anything that chews up a Slaadikin will chew up any other Tasha's Summon even faster. Yes, they lack abilities that will confer frightened/poisoned which would cause them to sometimes, with good rolls, against susceptible enemies, be attacked at disadvantage. They make up for this, and then some, by having an always-on regen that isn't subject to dice rolls, in my view.

And, of course, as I've mentioned, if it's too hot for a melee Summon to long survive, SA gives me the option of a Flying Ranged attack that can keep it out of melee and still pumping out damage. Which you can't get with any of the other Tasha's Summons.

We are clear that I say it's only the best melee TASHA'S Summon? I admit CE is stronger once cast.

You can summon a Flying Ranged Attacker or Melee Tanky Creature with both Summon Celestial and Summon Fiend, both of which deal more damage then the Slaad/Beholder. And the Defender Celestial potentially has greater range then Beholder 1, it's long range is up to 600 feet and it deals more damage & a better damage type too. Summon Fiend has Devils that have a ranged attack too.

[KorvinStarmast]

Gah, I swear this is the last time I use D&D Wiki, You have chosen wisely. :smallcool:

I really, really hate that the new spells (specifically the druid ones) don't have hit dice. If it wasn't that Conjure Beasts is available by level 3 I probably would use none of those on a Sheperd since the already existing summoning spells are usually better by far and they don't have that bug. My shepherd druid (me DM, he player) is turning 6 and asked me about this specifically. As we looked through it, we decided to apply 1 HD + 1 HD per spell level (avg most likely) to make it fit about the same as the previous spells.

It may be a while before we get to play again, the Xmas break may throw a wrench in the schedule. When we do try it out, I'll let you know how our scheme worked and if we like it or not.

[Bilbron]

It's generally a good idea to carry a crowd control spell, and Hypnotic Pattern is excellent, but if you're concerned about condition immunities Confusion is also excellent and it works on everything including Titivilus (except of course things immune to low-level magic, like Rakshasas and Tiamat--and of course you still have to beat legendary resistance from creatures that have it).I must say, I was surprised by your praise of Confusion, which I had kind of written off in my first pass at these spells like a year ago, and have never really considered it much since. Your point about its immunity to immunity is well taken. 10' radius effect is an immediate turn off, however. Care to expound more on your perspective in regards to this spell?

[MaxWilson]

I must say, I was surprised by your praise of Confusion, which I had kind of written off in my first pass at these spells like a year ago, and have never really considered it much since. Your point about its immunity to immunity is well taken. 10' radius effect is an immediate turn off, however. Care to expound more on your perspective in regards to this spell?

It's a mass action denial spell which sometimes causes enemies to even attack each other (which offsets the times when they get to act normally, except for having no reaction). Facing a wraith and seven specters? You may be unsure if they're immune to charm or fear (it turns out they are) or Fireball (they're resistant) but you know they're not immune to Confusion! And it's natively available to bards and druids as well as wizards, which can be important because they don't have native access to even better control spells like Wall of Force.

Do I take it as a wizard? Not usually, because of spellbook opportunity cost--let the druid do that while I learn Dimension Door or Summon Greater Demon or something. But there will definitely be times when I'm screaming for the druid to cast Confusion while I summon a demon or ready a Dimension Door or something.

10' radius (15' if upcast to 5th level) isn't huge, but enemies tend to clump up somewhat IME, so some of the lost area is empty space. In the wraith scenario, I'd expect to be able to hit three to five enemies with a 10' radius Confusion, same number as a Wall of Force.

[Bilbron]

It's a mass action denial spell which sometimes causes enemies to even attack each other (which offsets the times when they get to act normally, except for having no reaction). Facing a wraith and seven specters? You may be unsure if they're immune to charm or fear (it turns out they are) or Fireball (they're resistant) but you know they're not immune to Confusion! And it's natively available to bards and druids as well as wizards, which can be important because they don't have native access to even better control spells like Wall of Force.

Do I take it as a wizard? Not usually, because of spellbook opportunity cost--let the druid do that while I learn Dimension Door or Summon Greater Demon or something. But there will definitely be times when I'm screaming for the druid to cast Confusion while I summon a demon or ready a Dimension Door or something.

10' radius (15' if upcast to 5th level) isn't huge, but enemies tend to clump up somewhat IME, so some of the lost area is empty space. In the wraith scenario, I'd expect to be able to hit three to five enemies with a 10' radius Confusion, same number as a Wall of Force.Awesome, many thanks!

[sambojin]

Just on the powergamery side (I mentioned this elsewhere):

A lvl4 Stars druid can cast Summon Beast (flying), Wildshape into a Frilled Deathspitter (a CR1/2 Ixalan beast, horribly overstatted) and use Archer constellation for an equivalent of 5 attacks "per turn" (yours and the beast's) at level 4. Five of them!

+5to-hit 1d6+3 x 3 (deathspitter attacks)
+6to-hit 1d8+4 (assuming 18Wis, Archer bonus)
+6to-hit 1d8+6 (summon's flyby attack)
(next level the +6's go up to +7's)

Not bad for lvl4, though it blows a level 2 spell slot, both WS charges, and uses your concentration. But still, not bad for a low-level melee "nova", although it lasts ten minutes, so it's pretty sustained. At 18HP and low AC, don't expect it to last more than a round or three in real gameplay situations. Still, it's cool that there's a "blender" option for Stars druids. Can also shoot a bit, although it's very short ranged and poison for half of them.


Also, Velociraptor wildshapes could probably ride a small flying beast summon (they're tiny), so all druids have a flying/slightly combat'y option at level 3 now. Pack tactics makes up for the +4to-hit, since you'll always be within 5' of your summoned beast. But at 10HP you/20HP summon, its mostly for funsies or very specific situations.
(don't even ask me how the "summoned beast goes after your turn" works with "riding movement happens on your turn" thing. Don't know. Could be very awkward if you have to prep attack actions every turn)

[Valmark]

Just on the powergamery side (I mentioned this elsewhere):

A Stars druid can cast Summon Beast (flying), Wildshape into a Frilled Deathspitter (an Ixalan beast, horribly overstatted) and use Archer constellation for an equivalent of 5 attacks "per turn" (yours and the beast's) at level 4. Five of them!

+5to-hit 1d6+3 times 3
+6to-hit 1d8+4 (assuming 18Wis)
+6to-hit 1d8+6

Not bad for lvl4, though it blows a level 2 spell slot, both WS charges, and uses your concentration. But still, not bad for a low-level melee "nova", although it lasts ten minutes, so it's pretty sustained. At 18HP and low AC, don't expect it to last more than a round or three in real gameplay situations. Still, it's cool that there's a "blender" option for Stars druids.


Also, Velociraptor wildshapes could probably ride a small flying beast summon (they're tiny), so all druids have a flying/slightly combat'y option at level 3 now. Pack tactics makes up for the +4to-hit, since you'll always be within 5' of your summoned beast. But at 10HP, its mostly for funsies or very specific situations.
(don't even ask me how the "summoned beast goes after your turn" works with "riding movement happens on your turn" thing. Don't know. Could be very awkward if you have to prep attack actions every turn)

Eh, imo a controlled mount would override the different turns like normal (and an uncontrolled one who use it's own turn like normal).

[sambojin]

On this end of things, Summon Fey doesn't look too bad. Not so much as "what an amazing thing compared to Conjure Beasts", but as a fairly decent teleporting mount at lvl5.

You can wildshape into something tiny, and ride the Fey, bouncing around everywhere as a teleporting charmer. At lvl5, you can wildshape into a warhorse or jaculi, and at lvl8 a giant eagle or giant octopus and have the fey ride you. It's not great, but it's extra movement, Extra Attack, 30' bonus action teleports, and possibly some pretty high DC charms to help nullify attacks back. For any druid for an hour (depending on Concentration saves). Add archer constellation/ weal&woe/ moon forms/ shepherd auras to taste.

It solves the Giant Octopus' movement problem, and can give plenty of other forms quite a bit of power to keep them relevant at lvls8-10.

If you look at it as the druid's version of Summon Mount (that lets you teleport as well), it doesn't seem as bad.

[MaxWilson]

On this end of things, Summon Fey doesn't look too bad. Not so much as "what an amazing thing compared to Conjure Beasts", but as a fairly decent teleporting mount at lvl5.

You can wildshape into something tiny, and ride the Fey, bouncing around everywhere as a teleporting charmer. At lvl5/8, you can wildshape into a warhorse or jaculi/or giant eagle and have the fey ride you. It's not great, but it's 60'+ movement, Extra Attack, 30' bonus action teleports, and possibly some pretty high DC charms to help nullify attacks back. For any druid for an hour (depending on Concentration saves). Add archer constellation/ weal&woe/ moon forms/ shepherd auras to taste.

If you look at it as the druid's version of Summon Mount (that lets you teleport as well), it doesn't seem as bad.

It only teleports itself, not you.

[sambojin]

If you were riding it, wouldn't you move along with it?

You're probably right that it would teleport itself away if it was riding one of your larger wildshape forms.

I'd ask my dm about this. If they say that you teleport with the fey, then get a shoulder saddle for your normal form. Why waste the WS charge? :D

[MaxWilson]

If you were riding it, wouldn't you move along with it?

(1) Ask your DM, but I don't see why you would, any more than you move when someone you're grappling teleports.

(2) You also suggested having it ride you, and in that case I even more don't see why you would. (You don't move when someone grappling you teleports, unless it's one of those rare and terrifying creatures like a Boneclaw which DOES explicitly teleport you with it.)