Tempest AOE Nova Build (Multiclass!)

[DM Mike]

Hola!

I'm building a front-line tank for an upcoming nautical/pirate campaign and want the character to be all that the character can be!

And what I envision the character to "be" is essentially Thor from "Ragnarok"... brimming with divine/electrical power and holding to the mindset of "the best defense is a good offense" and smiting/AOEing the enemies down before they can do enough damage to be a concern.

After some (semi-)careful consideration, I have come up with some alternatives... I just have no idea what the best" or most optimal might be or when to take the levels where!

Conundrum A: Class Selection...

Here's what I have:
- Cleric (Tempest Domain)... to 5... the Domain spells are kind of lame after 3rd level and don't fit the 'thunder god/lightning' theme I'm going for... though an argument could be made for "ice storm+transmute elements metamagic".
- Paladin (Oath of the Seas) to 2... SMITE!... but maaaaaybe to 6 for the Aura saves?
- Sorcerer to at least 5 (higher?)... not sure how far to go with this one... (see below)

My problem is this... it feels "pretty good"... but what can be added to push it over the top?

A dip into Fighter?
- Fighter 1 gives me another fighting stance and a second wind (and another hp)...
- Fighter 2 grants Action Surge (but at that level it's only once per rest)...
- Fighter 3 would grant Battle Master and increase melee versatility (Riposte for a free Smite not on my turn, etc.)
- Fighter 4 is an ASI
- Fighter 5 (if I don't push Paladin that far), would be an Extra Attack

Conundrum B: Level Placement...

- if I push to Paladin 6, I lose potential levels in Fighter to ensure 'tankiness'

When and Where? How do I level this guy?
- Logistically, I should start with a Con-save, so Fighter or Sorcerer... then as soon as the ASI comes up, take War Caster for the Concentration saves... So... S1, then C1, C2, C3, C4, C5? Pushes me to Spirit Guardians as quickly as possible... but then what?
Paladin 1, 2 to get Smites? Should I take Paladin sooner and push the ASI back a bit?

Conundrum C: Race...

- I've had people suggest different races for different reasons... Tortle for natural AC, Goliath for damage absorption, (Water) Genasi or Triton for Water Breathing... I just can't decide what would be optimal. LOL
- I'm leaning away from human (or VHuman)
- the DM is giving us a 'thematic to our character' free Feat at lv 1
- the alternate rules in Tasha's means that I can pretty much take any race and apply the attribute bonuses wherever I want them.

Any help anyone can be would be greatly appreciated!

[Emongnome777]

I'd consider half-elf here. +4 total stat bonuses, plus you can go with sea half-elf (swim speed and thematic) or high half-elf (getting booming blade cantrip). I'd pick high half-elf between the two.

As for class choices, I'm a big fan of single-class builds personally, so I don't have a good feel for the options you laid out, but I would offer up staying in cleric for longer. The divine strike at 8th then 14th boosts your attack damage, getting more lightning or thunder damage on top of the BB cantrip. Plus, even with poor spell selection, upcasting something like Shatter and using your CD to maximize the damage sounds fun. Just my thoughts, sounds like you are looking for more warrior levels, so straight cleric probably doesn't resonate with you.

As for "thematic for your character" feat at 1st level, some choices would be crusher (Thor hits hard with his hammer) or elemental adept (lightning, to overcome that pesky resistance).

Sorry, this probably isn't that useful.

[RogueJK]

Multiclass Tempest Clerics are usually something like Cleric 2/Sorcerer X. That kind of build is especially viable now with Transmute Spell metamagic to turn any elemental spell into Thunder/Lightning for Maximizing. And with Divine Soul Sorcerer, you can still poach the best Cleric spells too, including Spirit Guardians.


But the Cleric/Paladin/Sorcerer/Fighter idea is not going to work very well. It's trying to do way too much, and won't be effective at any of it.

A Cleric 5/Paladin 2/Sorcerer X doesn't get 3rd level Sorcerer spells until 12th level, and doesn't get any 4th level spells until 14th. That's... not great. You're going to feel pretty underpowered in Tier 2 and especially Tiers 3 and 4 with no Extra Attacks and no higher levels spells.

Same with a Cleric 5/Paladin 6/Sorcerer X. You finally get an Extra Attack at 11th level, but don't get spells above 3rd until Tier 4.

Throwing Fighter levels in there only makes matters worse.

Not to mention that with any of those, you're going to be very MAD, needing a high STR, high WIS, and high CHA.


So I'd recommend narrowing your focus, figuring out exactly what you want more, and picking no more than two classes and two stats to focus on, with only a multiclass dip in one class with a primary focus on the other.

Honestly, a straight classed Tempest Cleric is a great all-rounder and a great Thor clone, able to do some melee, and some blasting, along with the standard Cleric stuff. You can focus on WIS with STR secondary.

But do you want a little more melee-focused Tempest Cleric, possibly with some Smites? A Paladin 2/Tempest Cleric X could potentially fit that, focusing on STR and WIS, with only a 13ish CHA. You'd have Smites and a Fighting Style, as well as a bit of Paladin spellcasting. Or a Fighter 1/Cleric X, for CON saves and a Fighting Style, but no smite. (Either way, you don't want to delay your primary Cleric class progression any more than 1 or 2 levels.)

Or do you want a bit more elemental blaster caster and a little less melee? A Tempest Cleric 2/Divine Soul Sorcerer X would work, with 13ish WIS and high CHA and STR. You can still wear heavy armor and swing a weapon with Booming Blade, and still have some choice Cleric spells, but also have some Sorcerer elemental blasting spells and Metamagic options too. (And like before, you don't want to take more than 2 Cleric levels, because it will just needlessly delay your primary Sorcerer class levels.)


As for race, High Half Elf is a good choice for any of the non-Sorcerer options, since you can still pick up Booming Blade to help scale your single melee attack per round on your Cleric, Fighter/Cleric, or Paladin/Cleric.


I played a High Half Elf Tempest Cleric in a campaign through Tier 3, and had a blast. I never felt like I wanted or needed Paladin, Fighter, or Sorcerer levels, as I was already effective as a blaster when I wanted to be, and already effective in melee with Booming Blade when I wanted to be, plus always effective as a standard Cleric. (Besides, as you gain levels past Tier 1 or 2, you figure out that Clerics generally have much better things to be doing at higher levels than making single melee attacks in a round anyway, even with something like Booming Blade and Divine Strike added in.)

[DM Mike]

Multiclass Tempest Clerics are usually something like Cleric 2/Sorcerer X. That kind of build is especially viable now with Transmute Spell metamagic to turn any elemental spell into Thunder/Lightning for Maximizing. And with Divine Soul Sorcerer, you can still poach the best Cleric spells too, including Spirit Guardians.


But the Cleric/Paladin/Sorcerer/Fighter idea is not going to work very well. It's trying to do way too much, and won't be effective at any of it.

A Cleric 5/Paladin 2/Sorcerer X doesn't get 3rd level Sorcerer spells until 12th level, and doesn't get any 4th level spells until 14th. That's... not great. You're going to feel pretty underpowered in Tier 2 and especially Tiers 3 and 4 with no Extra Attacks and no higher levels spells.

Same with a Cleric 5/Paladin 6/Sorcerer X. You finally get an Extra Attack at 11th level, but don't get spells above 3rd until Tier 4.

Throwing Fighter levels in there only makes matters worse.

Not to mention that with any of those, you're going to be very MAD, needing a high STR, high WIS, and high CHA.


So I'd recommend narrowing your focus, figuring out exactly what you want more, and picking no more than two classes and two stats to focus on, with only a multiclass dip in one class with a primary focus on the other.

Honestly, a straight classed Tempest Cleric is a great all-rounder and a great Thor clone, able to do some melee, and some blasting, along with the standard Cleric stuff. You can focus on WIS with STR secondary.

But do you want a little more melee-focused Tempest Cleric, possibly with some Smites? A Paladin 2/Tempest Cleric X could potentially fit that, focusing on STR and WIS, with only a 13ish CHA. You'd have Smites and a Fighting Style, as well as a bit of Paladin spellcasting. Or a Fighter 1/Cleric X, for CON saves and a Fighting Style, but no smite. (Either way, you don't want to delay your primary Cleric class progression any more than 1 or 2 levels.)

Or do you want a bit more elemental blaster caster and a little less melee? A Tempest Cleric 2/Divine Soul Sorcerer X would work, with 13ish WIS and high CHA and STR. You can still wear heavy armor and swing a weapon with Booming Blade, and still have some choice Cleric spells, but also have some Sorcerer elemental blasting spells and Metamagic options too. (And like before, you don't want to take more than 2 Cleric levels, because it will just needlessly delay your primary Sorcerer class levels.)


As for race, High Half Elf is a good choice for any of the non-Sorcerer options, since you can still pick up Booming Blade to help scale your single melee attack per round on your Cleric, Fighter/Cleric, or Paladin/Cleric.


I played a High Half Elf Tempest Cleric in a campaign through Tier 3, and had a blast. I never felt like I wanted or needed Paladin, Fighter, or Sorcerer levels, as I was already effective as a blaster when I wanted to be, and already effective in melee with Booming Blade when I wanted to be, plus always effective as a standard Cleric. (Besides, as you gain levels past Tier 1 or 2, you figure out that Clerics generally have much better things to be doing at higher levels than making single melee attacks in a round anyway, even with something like Booming Blade and Divine Strike added in.)

***

I see your point, and I (somewhat, begrudgingly) agree.
Too many classes is too many.

What I am looking for is a heavy-hitter and a tank, heals being nice, but secondary... Ideally a Sorcadin, but I am very in love with the Tempest Cleric.
My original thinking on it even had me taking an initial level in Rogue (rofl) to be more of a skill monkey. I thought better of it after a while, then thought to myself "Why not Bard to 3? Expertise AND full caster!"... then I came across the Sorcadin build... and now it's all about getting as much versatility into my (lightning/thunder) spell/attacks as possible.

I'm trying to build an AOE heavy hitter that doesn't need to worry about getting hit when his enemies are all dead at his feet with one (or two) massive AOE blast(s).

We have a primary healer (Forge Cleric, and off-tank), a Monk, a Swashbuckler and a Warlock (Deeps or Old One)... so we're got most of the "roles" covered... I just figure I'll end up being a "melee blaster" (a tank that actually does damage LOL).

Bringing it back to Paladin/Sorcerer/Cleric... any thoughts?

I'm kind of leaning P2, C5, S13... 19th level for spell slots, 7th level Sorc spells, Spirit Guardians, Smites as far as the eye can see, some combat versatility, Smites, some heal potential (and a bit of cure disease/poison when needed), Smites, Metamagic (transmute element, twin, quicken?), Smites...

I fully expect to burn through a LOT of spell slots in every combat. LOL

[DM Mike]

I'd consider half-elf here. +4 total stat bonuses, plus you can go with sea half-elf (swim speed and thematic) or high half-elf (getting booming blade cantrip). I'd pick high half-elf between the two.

As for class choices, I'm a big fan of single-class builds personally, so I don't have a good feel for the options you laid out, but I would offer up staying in cleric for longer. The divine strike at 8th then 14th boosts your attack damage, getting more lightning or thunder damage on top of the BB cantrip. Plus, even with poor spell selection, upcasting something like Shatter and using your CD to maximize the damage sounds fun. Just my thoughts, sounds like you are looking for more warrior levels, so straight cleric probably doesn't resonate with you.

As for "thematic for your character" feat at 1st level, some choices would be crusher (Thor hits hard with his hammer) or elemental adept (lightning, to overcome that pesky resistance).

Sorry, this probably isn't that useful.

***

Thanks for the reply!
That alone makes it useful! =)


Multiclass Tempest Clerics are usually something like Cleric 2/Sorcerer X. That kind of build is especially viable now with Transmute Spell metamagic to turn any elemental spell into Thunder/Lightning for Maximizing. And with Divine Soul Sorcerer, you can still poach the best Cleric spells too, including Spirit Guardians.


But the Cleric/Paladin/Sorcerer/Fighter idea is not going to work very well. It's trying to do way too much, and won't be effective at any of it.

A Cleric 5/Paladin 2/Sorcerer X doesn't get 3rd level Sorcerer spells until 12th level, and doesn't get any 4th level spells until 14th. That's... not great. You're going to feel pretty underpowered in Tier 2 and especially Tiers 3 and 4 with no Extra Attacks and no higher levels spells.

Same with a Cleric 5/Paladin 6/Sorcerer X. You finally get an Extra Attack at 11th level, but don't get spells above 3rd until Tier 4.

Throwing Fighter levels in there only makes matters worse.

Not to mention that with any of those, you're going to be very MAD, needing a high STR, high WIS, and high CHA.


So I'd recommend narrowing your focus, figuring out exactly what you want more, and picking no more than two classes and two stats to focus on, with only a multiclass dip in one class with a primary focus on the other.

Honestly, a straight classed Tempest Cleric is a great all-rounder and a great Thor clone, able to do some melee, and some blasting, along with the standard Cleric stuff. You can focus on WIS with STR secondary.

But do you want a little more melee-focused Tempest Cleric, possibly with some Smites? A Paladin 2/Tempest Cleric X could potentially fit that, focusing on STR and WIS, with only a 13ish CHA. You'd have Smites and a Fighting Style, as well as a bit of Paladin spellcasting. Or a Fighter 1/Cleric X, for CON saves and a Fighting Style, but no smite. (Either way, you don't want to delay your primary Cleric class progression any more than 1 or 2 levels.)

Or do you want a bit more elemental blaster caster and a little less melee? A Tempest Cleric 2/Divine Soul Sorcerer X would work, with 13ish WIS and high CHA and STR. You can still wear heavy armor and swing a weapon with Booming Blade, and still have some choice Cleric spells, but also have some Sorcerer elemental blasting spells and Metamagic options too. (And like before, you don't want to take more than 2 Cleric levels, because it will just needlessly delay your primary Sorcerer class levels.)


As for race, High Half Elf is a good choice for any of the non-Sorcerer options, since you can still pick up Booming Blade to help scale your single melee attack per round on your Cleric, Fighter/Cleric, or Paladin/Cleric.


I played a High Half Elf Tempest Cleric in a campaign through Tier 3, and had a blast. I never felt like I wanted or needed Paladin, Fighter, or Sorcerer levels, as I was already effective as a blaster when I wanted to be, and already effective in melee with Booming Blade when I wanted to be, plus always effective as a standard Cleric. (Besides, as you gain levels past Tier 1 or 2, you figure out that Clerics generally have much better things to be doing at higher levels than making single melee attacks in a round anyway, even with something like Booming Blade and Divine Strike added in.)

***

My concern with Cleric 8 is that it's an awfully long way for an extra 1d8 damage... something I can get more of from Booming Blade alone... and that's only a 1-level dip in Sorcerer to get!

What I am looking for is a heavy-hitter and a tank, heals being nice, but secondary... Ideally a Sorcadin, but I am very in love with the Tempest Cleric concept... and it's basically all about getting as much versatility into my (lightning/thunder) spell/attacks as possible.

Destructive Wrath + upcast (say a lv7) Twinned Witchbolt... 84 points of automatic lightning damage to two targets per round! :smallcool:
Destructive Wrath + upcast (say a lv7) Extended Shatter... 64 points of thunder damage to everything within 20 feet :smalltongue:

I'm trying to build an AOE heavy hitter that doesn't need to worry about getting hit when his enemies are all dead at his feet with one (or two) massive AOE blast(s).

We have a primary healer (Forge Cleric, and off-tank), a Monk, a Swashbuckler and a Warlock (Deeps or Old One)... so we're got most of the "roles" covered... I just figure I'll end up being a "melee blaster" (a tank that actually does damage LOL).

Bringing it back to Paladin/Sorcerer/Cleric... any thoughts?

I'm kind of leaning P2, C5, S13... 19th level for spell slots, 7th level Sorc spells, Spirit Guardians, Smites as far as the eye can see, some combat versatility, Smites, some heal potential (and a bit of cure disease/poison when needed), Smites, Metamagic (transmute element, twin, quicken? - maybe the metamagic adept feat for extra metamagics), Smites...

I fully expect to burn through a LOT of spell slots in every combat. LOL

[bendking]

First off, I made a build (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24325811&postcount=300) that might help you out here.
Secondly, I'm not sure that it's a good idea to get both Paladin, Cleric, and Sorcerer in the same build. You're going to have to give up on either stronger offensive casting (Sorcerer) or stronger melee (Paladin). I don't think you can have both without spreading your build too thin.
Paladin 2 --> Cleric 5 --> Sorcerer 13 is not great. You're getting Fireball at level 12 on a blaster build. Something's gotta give here.

I think you have a few options here:
1. Tempest Cleric 2 / Sorcerer X - Incredible damage output. Draconic, Storm, and Divine Soul are all good options.
2. Paladin 2 / Storm Sorcerer X - Destructive Wrath and CON save proficiency, but get Smites. Ask DM to add Tempest Cleric bonus spells to Storm Sorcerer in light of recently busted Sorcerer subclasses (that get a bonus spell list) and Storm Sorcerer being the worst.
3. Paladin 6 / Storm Sorcerer X - Same as above, more melee damage, less casting, and the That Aura. Again, only if your DM gives you the bonus spell list because otherwise, you won't get your flavor.
3. Tempest Cleric X - should work fairly well as is, but you won't get the explosive power of the Sorcerer.

Also, I wouldn't get both Paladin and Fighter levels, that's just too redundant. I would only consider Paladin here.

[DM Mike]

First off, I made a build that might help you out here.
Secondly, I'm not sure that it's a good idea to get both Paladin, Cleric, and Sorcerer in the same build. You're going to have to give up on either stronger offensive casting (Sorcerer) or stronger melee (Paladin). I don't think you can have both without spreading your build too thin.
Paladin 2 --> Cleric 5 --> Sorcerer 13 is not great. You're getting Fireball at level 12 on a blaster build. Something's gotta give here.

I think you have a few options here:
1. Tempest Cleric 2 / Sorcerer X - Incredible damage output. Draconic, Storm, and Divine Soul are all good options.
2. Paladin 2 / Storm Sorcerer X - Destructive Wrath and CON save proficiency, but get Smites. Ask DM to add Tempest Cleric bonus spells to Storm Sorcerer in light of recently busted Sorcerer subclasses (that get a bonus spell list) and Storm Sorcerer being the worst.
3. Paladin 6 / Storm Sorcerer X - Same as above, more melee damage, less casting, and the That Aura. Again, only if your DM gives you the bonus spell list because otherwise, you won't get your flavor.
3. Tempest Cleric X - should work fairly well as is, but you won't get the explosive power of the Sorcerer.

Also, I wouldn't get both Paladin and Fighter levels, that's just too redundant. I would only consider Paladin here.

***

Yeah... the more I look at it, the more the extra options afforded to adding a level or two of Fighter cost way too much in terms of spell slot progression (if nothing else) and don't add commensurately. To get the sheer melee goonishness I'd want, I'd have to go high enough in Fighter to get more than 2 attacks per round. LOL

As for the rest, yeah... I literally read your "Tesla Coils" Iron Man build earlier today... it's kind of what inspired me to ask an optimization question in the first place. :smallsmile:

Do you think it might cost too much in the long run to grab two levels of Paladin and add them to the Cleric 2/Sorc 16?
- 9th level spellslots, 8th level Sorc spells, Smites as far as the eye can see on the off-times I'm not dropping huge AOE maximized Metamagicked bursts?
- heals if/when I need them, a little poison/disease Hail Mary, Smites, and a teeny bit of (2d8-3d8 + extra radiant damage with a melee hit) combat versatility in the early levels at the cost of a delayed ASI?

... you raise a good point, though... I'mma ask the DM for the Tempest Domain spells for the Storm Sorcerer. The worst she can say is "no", right? :smallbiggrin:

[bendking]

***

Yeah... the more I look at it, the more the extra options afforded to adding a level or two of Fighter cost way too much in terms of spell slot progression (if nothing else) and don't add commensurately. To get the sheer melee goonishness I'd want, I'd have to go high enough in Fighter to get more than 2 attacks per round. LOL

As for the rest, yeah... I literally read your "Tesla Coils" Iron Man build earlier today... it's kind of what inspired me to ask an optimization question in the first place. :smallsmile:

Do you think it might cost too much in the long run to grab two levels of Paladin and add them to the Cleric 2/Sorc 16?
- 9th level spellslots, 8th level Sorc spells, Smites as far as the eye can see on the off-times I'm not dropping huge AOE maximized Metamagicked bursts?
- heals if/when I need them, a little poison/disease Hail Mary, Smites, and a teeny bit of (2d8-3d8 + extra radiant damage with a melee hit) combat versatility in the early levels at the cost of a delayed ASI?

... you raise a good point, though... I'mma ask the DM for the Tempest Domain spells for the Storm Sorcerer. The worst she can say is "no", right? :smallbiggrin:

Firstly, Tesla Coils isn't my build, mine is God of Lightning, but thank you :)

If you start at level 9, getting Paladin 2/Cleric 2 wouldn't be as bad, since you at least start with 3rd level spells. But otherwise, delaying 3rd levels spells by that much is a huge cost for a spellcaster. But at that point, going Paladin 6/Storm Sorcerer 18 (with bonus spell list) becomes much more appealing because you're already committing a lot of levels to multiclassing.
Personally, I would just go for Cleric 2/Sorcerer 18, but if you really want the melee flavor, this could be an OK option.

[RogueJK]

I concur with the above.

If you were playing a Level 20 one-off, then a Paladin 2/Cleric 2/Sorcerer 16 might be workable. (Though not having 9th level spells would still hurt.)

But trying to play that character from 1st level onward is going to be frustrating no matter how you slice it, because you're going to be well behind the power curve pretty much the entire time, and especially in Tiers 2 and 3.

Again - If you're going to multiclass with this Thor-like character you want to stick to no more than two classes, with one primary and one just a secondary dip, based on what you want more: better melee or better blasting. Either just Tempest Cleric for the "jack of all trades", or Tempest Cleric secondary and Sorcerer primary for blaster, or Paladin secondary and Sorcerer primary for melee smiting.

Otherwise you'll just end up with a mess of a triple/quadruple-multiclassed character that has a lot of low level abilities, but no high level abilities appropriate for your total character level, and that can't keep up with the rest of the party's more level-appropriate abilities and is constantly being overshadowed and rendered ineffective.

No matter how much you multiclass, you can't make a character that is the best at everything. That's by design. However, with smart and limited multiclassing choices you can make a character that's the best at a few things, or you can make a character that's good at several things. But it's easy to fall victim to trying to do to much and then just ending up with a character that's bad at almost everything.

[P. G. Macer]

Oath of the Open Sea, though on DnDBeyond, is not official content, being one of Matt Mercer’s creations like Blood Hunter and Gunslinger. Check with your DM to make sure they’re okay with homebrew before adding a third paladin level to your character.

[DM Mike]

Oath of the Open Sea, though on DnDBeyond, is not official content, being one of Matt Mercer’s creations like Blood Hunter and Gunslinger. Check with your DM to make sure they’re okay with homebrew before adding a third paladin level to your character.

***

Nah... if I went Pally at all, I'd go to 2 for the Divine Smite... going to Pally 6 takes too much away from the "blaster" side of the build. =)

[Laserlight]

I'd do either "I hit things with my lightning hammer" as a paladin/sorc, or "I stand in the line and cast AoE but I don't bother with a melee weapon" as a tempest or possibly tempest/sorc. Unless you get godlike stats, you won't do both well.

I did roll godlike stats when I took a tempest through CoS, so I was 16+ at DEX CON WIS and CHA and I picked up Boom as a racial cantrip. Nevertheless, for L1-4 I often didn't swing a weapon, and starting with L5 I almost never did; it's much more effective to be a caster. Note though that a straight Tempest doesn't have good single target damage; if you want to kill one dude in the middle of a crowd of civilians, you need to cast "Hey, Rogue buddy, kill that guy with the hat."

[5eNeedsDarksun]

One option to simplify things would be to go Tempest Cleric/ Sorcerer (Storm is possible, though not a super strong subclass). Hill Dwarf basically enables you to go with both a low strength and dex due to their racial ability. You end up with a strong caster type build with the same theme, with decent tanking abilities.