[3.5] Suel Arcanamach vs. Knight of the Weave

[Thurbane]

So, just curious.

If you absolutely had to pick one of these 2 PRCs as the casting base for a character, which would you chose?

KotW gets 6th level spells, but from a very restricted list. SA only gets 5th, but can select from any Sor/Wiz from the abjuration, divination, illusion, and transmutation schools.

KoTW also has less entry reqs, and can be entered a level earlier.

I'm wondering if the superior spell selection of SA makes up for any of this?

Only interested in comparing these two classes please.

Cheers - T

[Saintheart]

...I guess if you're playing all below 12th level the Swell AreKindaMech wins out? :smallbiggrin:

[TheCount]

Never played either, but SA looks like you could do some fun stuff with, though, I'm kinda sad the strike is a per day ability...

KotW seems more utility in general, what with the at will detect magic and the spell fire.

I think it mostly comes down what spells you want.
SA let's you cherry pick from 4 very decent list, even if the levels are limited.
KotW has a level higher spells,but it's list is fixed, as you said, but has some divine spells on it's list.

I would say KotW if you want an all-rounder, SA if you want a specialist.

[mabriss lethe]

It might also come down to the rest of your build after finishing the PrC. My money is on Knight of the Weave for that one. It has minimal, easy to acquire prerequisites, so following up with another PrC is easier than with SA.

[Anthrowhale]

If you spend a feat on 'Channel Charge' and have access to charged items then Knight of the Weave just looks superior. Same/fewer feat tax, earlier entry, and fewer skill reqs. The only disadvantage I see is 2 fewer skill points/level. On the skills side, the KotW skill list is small but quite good with UMD, Diplomacy, Spot, and Spellcraft. It looks Suel trades UMD and Diplomacy for Hide/Move Silently/Listen, so maybe this would be preferred for a sneaky thief caster.

[liquidformat]

Most of the time I would go with Suel Arcanamach because it is from CA and not setting specific... If I am playing Forgotten Realms or am allowed to grab stuff from any setting then KotW...

[Darg]

Knight of the weave list might be small but gets earlier spell level access, more spells per day, more spells known, and access to 6th level spells. Arcane disciple gives you access to select spells if you desire. Choosing the magic domain gives access to greater anyspell which drastically increases the utility possible.

[Thurbane]

Most of the time I would go with Suel Arcanamach because it is from CA and not setting specific... If I am playing Forgotten Realms or am allowed to grab stuff from any setting then KotW...

Funny thing: SA is very heavily a Greyhawk PrC fluff-wise; in fact, more-or-less the only Greyhawk inspired PrC n 3.5 that I know of (WotC generally had disdain for the Greyhawk setting as a whole). But because it doesn't appear in a setting book (not that there were really any Greyhawk books in 3E, apart from gazetteers, and EttRoG to a degree), it isn't considered a setting-specific class.


Knight of the weave list might be small but gets earlier spell level access, more spells per day, more spells known, and access to 6th level spells. Arcane disciple gives you access to select spells if you desire. Choosing the magic domain gives access to greater anyspell which drastically increases the utility possible.

True. Both classes would also benefit from a bloodline feat, or better yet, a dip into Sand Shaper. KoTW would benefit more, due to 6th level spell access, and better spells/day.

KotW is weird, in that it's spells per day and spells known table are one and the same. I don't know that any other class does this.

In regard to the spell lists...

KotW:

1st level
Bless
Bless weapon
Charm person
Command
Comprehend languages
Cure light wounds
Divine favor
Lesser restoration
Mage armor
Magic missile
Magic weapon
Read magic
Shield

2nd level
Arcane lock
Bear’s endurance
Bull’s strength
Cat’s grace
Darkvision
Delay poison
Eagle’s splendor
Resist energy
See invisibility
Shield other

3rd level
Arcane sight
Cure moderate wounds
Darsson’s potion
Daylight
Dispel magic
Fly
Forceward
Greater magic weapon
Phantom steed
Remove curse

4th level
Break enchantment
Cure serious wounds
Death ward
Lesser globe of invulnerability
Mark of justice
Neutralize poison
Restoration

5th level
Cure critical wounds
Dimension door
Disrupting weapon
Mordenkainen’s faithful hound
Spell resistance
True seeing

6th level
Banishment
Greater dispel magic
Teleport

SA (partial list):

1st level
Accelerated Movement (SC)
Alarm (PHB)
Alibi (EoE)
Animate Rope (PHB)
Appraising Touch (SC)
Armor Lock (CS)
Arrow Mind (SC)
Babau Slime (SC)
Bestow Wound (HoH)
Breath Flare (SC)
Burning Rage (PHB II)
Cheat (SC)
Color Spray (PHB)
Combat Readiness (DU)
Comprehend Languages (PHB)
Critical Strike (SC)
Cutting Hand (SC)
Dead End (SC)
Deflect, Lesser (PHB II)
Detect Dragonblood (DM)
Detect Secret Doors (PHB)
Detect Undead (PHB)
Detect Weaponry (Cty)
Discern Bloodline (RoD)
Disguise Self (PHB)
Dispel Ward (SC)
Ebon Eyes (SC)
Ectoplasmic Armor (SC)
Endure Elements (PHB)
Enlarge Person (PHB)
Erase (PHB)
Expeditious Retreat (PHB)
Expeditious Retreat, Swift (SC)
Eyes of the Avoral (BoED)
Feather Fall (PHB)
Fist of Stone (SC)
Float (Fr)
Friendly Face (RoD)
Ghostly Reload (RotD)
Golem Strike (SC)
Guided Shot (SC)
Hoard Gullet (DM)
Hold Portal (PHB)
Horrible Taste (SC)
Identify (PHB)
Insightful Feint (SC)
Instant Diversion (RotD)
Instant Locksmith (SC)
Instant Search (SC)
Ironguts (SC)
Jump (PHB)
Karmic Aura (CM)
Locate City (RoD)
Locate Water (Snd)
Low-Light Vision (SC)
Mage Burr (CS)
Mage Hand, Greater (SC)
Magic Aura (PHB)
Magic Weapon (PHB)
Master’s Touch (SC)
Mighty Wallop (RotD)
Nerveskitter (SC)
Nightshield (SC)
Path of Frost (DM)
Peacebond (Cty)
Portal Beacon (SC)
Protection from (alignment) (PHB)
Quickswim (Stm)
Raging Flame (SC)
Ray of Clumsiness (SC)
Reduce Person (PHB)
Remove Scent (SC)
Resist Planar Alignment (SC)
Scatterspray (SC)
Scholar’s Touch (RoD)
Secret Weapon (Cty)
Serene Visage (SC)
Shield (PHB)
Shieldbearer (SC)
Silent Image (PHB)
Slide (SC)
Slow Burn (SC)
Sniper’s Shot (SC)
Snowdrift (Fr)
Snuff the Light (DU)
Spell Flower (SC)
Spider Form, Lesser (DU)
Spontaneous Search (SC)
Sunstroke (Snd)
Targeting Ray (SC)
Treacherous Weapon (EoE)
True Casting (CM)
True Strike (PHB)
Ventriloquism (PHB)
Vigilant Slumber (CM)
Wave Blessing (Stm)
Weapon Shift (SC)

2nd level
Aiming at the Target (SC)
Alarm, Greater (SC)
Allied Footsteps (CM)
Alter Self (PHB)
Animalistic Power (PHB II)
Arcane Lock (PHB)
Arcane Turmoil (CM)
Attentive Alarm (CM)
Augment Familiar (SC)
Balancing Lorecall (SC)
Balor Nimbus (SC)
Bear’s Endurance (PHB)
Belker Claws (SC)
Bladeweave (SC)
Blinding Color Surge (PHB II)
Blur (PHB)
Body of the Sun (SC)
Boiling Blood (CM)
Bristle (SC)
Brumal Stiffening (Fr)
Bull’s Strength (PHB)
Cat’s Grace (PHB)
Catapult (CS)
Celerity, Lesser (PHB II)
Chain of Eyes (SC)
Cloak Pool (SC)
Crystalline Memories (CM)
Daggerspell Stance (SC)
Dark Way (SC)
Darkvision (PHB)
Deflect (PHB II)
Delusions of Grandeur (SC)
Detect Aberration (LoM)
Detect Thoughts (PHB)
Discern Shapechanger (SC)
Discolor Pool (SC)
Disguise Undead (SC)
Dispelling Touch (PHB II)
Dissonant Chant (SC)
Distracting Ray (SC)
Eagle’s Splendor (PHB)
Earth Lock (SC)
Earthbind (SC)
Earthen Grasp (SC)
Ectoplasmic Feedback (SC)
Energize Potion (BoED)
Energy Surge, Lesser (PHB II)
Enlarge Weapon (CS)
Extend Tentacles (SC)
False Peacebond (Cty)
Fearsome Grapple (SC)
Fins to Feet (SC)
Fly, Swift (SC)
Fox’s Cunning (PHB)
Frost Weapon (Fr)
Fuse Arms (SC)
Ghost Touch Armor (SC)
Heart of Air (CM)
Heroics (SC)
Hurl (SC)
Hypnotic Pattern (PHB)
Icicle (Fr)
Increase Virulence (PHB II)
Infernal Wound (SC)
Insight of Good Fortune (PHB II)
Investiture of the Spined Devil (FC II)
Invisibility (PHB)
Ironthunder Horn (SC)
Jaws of the Moray (Stm)
Knock (PHB)
Kuo-Toa Skin (Stm)
Levitate (PHB)
Lively Step (SC)
Locate Object (PHB)
Lucky Streak (CS)
Magic Mouth (PHB)
Magical Backlash (DU)
Marked Object (SC)
Master’s Touch (PHB II)
Minor Image (PHB)
Mirror Image (PHB)
Misdirection (PHB)
Mountain Stance (SC)
Obscure Object (PHB)
Owl’s Wisdom (PHB)
Phantasmal Assailants (SC)
Phantom Trap (PHB)
Portal Alarm (SC)
Protection from Arrows (PHB)
Pyrotechnics (PHB)
Quick Potion (SC)
Razorfangs (SC)
Reflective Disguise (SC)
Repair Moderate Damage (SC)
Resist Energy (PHB)
Returning Weapon (RotW)
Rope Trick (PHB)
Scale Weakening (SC)
Scintillating Scales (SC)
See Invisibility (PHB)
Shadow Double (DU)
Shadow Mask (SC)
Shadow Radiance (SC)
Shadow Shroud (DU)
Shadow Spray (SC)
Share Talents (PHB II)
Sink (Stm)
Slide, Greater (SC)
Snake’s Swiftness (SC)
Sonic Weapon (SC)
Soul of Anarchy (DM)
Soul of Order (DM)
Speak to Allies (SC)
Spider Climb (PHB)
Spymaster’s Coin (CS)
Steal Size (RotD)
Stone Bones (SC)
Stormrunner’s Ward (Stm)
Stretch Weapon (PHB II)
Sure Strike (PHB II)
Surefooted Stride (SC)
Swim (SC)
Swim (Stm)
Tern’s Persistence (Stm)
Turbidity (Stm)
Urchin’s Spines (Stm)
Vertigo (PHB II)
Vision of Entropy (FC I)
Wall of Gloom (SC)
Whirling Blade (SC)
Whispering Wind (PHB)
Wings of Air (SC)
Wraithstrike (SC)

3rd level
Air Breathing (SC)
Alter Fortune (PHB II)
Amorphous Form (SC)
Analyze Portal (SC)
Animate Weapon (CM)
Anticipate Teleportation (SC)
Antidragon Aura (SC)
Arcane Sight (PHB)
Arms of Plenty (LoM)
Avoid Planar Effects (SC)
Bite of the Wererat (SC)
Blink (PHB)
Circle Dance (SC)
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance (PHB)
Claws of Darkness (SC)
Cone of Dimness (SC)
Control Temperature (Fr)
Crown of Clarity (PHB II)
Crown of Might (PHB II)
Crown of Protection (PHB II)
Curse of Arrow Attraction (PHB II)
Deceptive Facade (CM)
Deeper Darkvision (SC)
Demon Dirge (SC)
Detect Ship (Stm)
Devil Blight (SC)
Devil’s Eye (FC II)
Diamondsteel (SC)
Disobedience (CS)
Dispel Magic (PHB)
Displacement (PHB)
Distilled Joy (BoED)
Dolorous Blow (SC)
Dragonskin (SC)
Earthen Grace (SC)
Energy Aegis (PHB II)
Energy Surge (PHB II)
Energy Vulnerability (PHB II)
Eradicate Earth (SC)
Evard’s Menacing Tentacles (PHB II)
Explosive Runes (PHB)
False Gravity (SC)
Ferocity of Sanguine Rage (DM)
Flame Arrow (PHB)
Fly (PHB)
Gaseous Form (PHB)
Giant’s Wrath (SC)
Girallon’s Blessing (SC)
Glacial Globe of Invulnerability (Fr)
Halt (PHB II)
Hamatula Barbs (SC)
Haste (PHB)
Heart of Water (CM)
Hood of the Cobra (CM)
Illusory Script (PHB)
Investiture of the Bearded Devil (FC II)
Investiture of the Chain Devil (FC II)
Invisibility Sphere (PHB)
Karmic Backlash (CM)
Keen Edge (PHB)
Least Dragonshape (DM)
Legion of Sentinels (PHB II)
Magic Circle against (alignment) (PHB)
Magic Weapon, Greater (PHB)
Major Image (PHB)
Mask of the Ideal (CM)
Mighty Wallop, Greater (RotD)
Nondetection (PHB)
Pall of Twilight (CM)
Phantasmal Injury (EoE)
Phantasmal Strangler (CM)
Phantom Guardians (RoD)
Primal Form (SC)
Protection from Dessication (Snd)
Protection from Energy (PHB)
Repair Serious Damage (SC)
Repelling Shield (CM)
Resist Taint (HoH)
Reverse Arrows (SC)
Rust Ray (SC)
Secret Page (PHB)
Sense of the Dragon (RotD)
Shadow Binding (SC)
Shadow Cache (SC)
Shadow Phase (SC)
Shape of the Hellspawned Stalker (CM)
Shrink Item (PHB)
Sign of Sealing (SC)
Siphon (CS)
Slow (PHB)
Snake’s Swiftness, Mass (SC)
Spectral Weapon (SC)
Spell Vulnerability (SC)
Spider Form (DU)
Spiderskin (SC)
Steeldance (SC)
Stony Grasp (SC)
Suspended Silence (SC)
Telepathic Bond, Lesser (SC)
Tenacious Dispelling (CM)
Tongues (PHB)
Tremorsense (SC)
Undulant Innards (LoM)
Unicorn Horn (CM)
Unluck (SC)
Vertigo Field (PHB II)
Vision of the Omniscient Eye (DM)
Walk the Mountain's Path (RoS)
Wand Modulation (CS)
Water Breathing (PHB)
Water to Acid (Stm)
Weapon of Energy (SC)
Weapon of Impact (SC)
Whispering Sand (Snd)
Wingblast (DM)

4th level
Aerial Alacrity (RotW)
Alliance Undone (EoE)
Arcane Eye (PHB)
Aspect of the Icy Hunter (CM)
Assay Spell Resistance (SC)
Attune Form (SC)
Backlash (SC)
Baleful Blink (PHB II)
Bite of the Werewolf (SC)
Blinding Breath (SC)
Call of Stone (PHB II)
Celerity (PHB II)
Condemnation (PHB II)
Corporeal Instability (SC)
Crown of Veils (PHB II)
Darkvision, Mass (SC)
Detect Scrying (PHB)
Dimensional Anchor (PHB)
Disguise Ship (Stm)
Dispelling Screen (SC)
Displacer Form (SC)
Enduring Flight (RotW)
Enlarge Person, Mass (PHB)
Entangling Staff (SC)
Fire Stride (SC)
Fire Trap (PHB)
Flame Whips (SC)
Flight of the Dragon (SC)
Forceward (SC)
Friendly Fire (EoE)
Fuse Sand (Snd)
Glacial Ward (Fr)
Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser (PHB)
Hallucinatory Terrain (PHB)
Heart of Earth (CM)
Ice Shield (Fr)
Illusory Wall (PHB)
Investiture of the Amnizu (FC II)
Investiture of the Erinyes (FC II)
Investiture of the Harvester Devil (FC II)
Investiture of the Steel Devil (FC II)
Invisibility, Greater (PHB)
Iron Bones (SC)
Know Vulnerabilities (SC)
Locate Creature (PHB)
Mark of the Enlightened Soul (DM)
Metal Melt (SC)
Mirror Image, Greater (PHB II)
Nightmare Terrain (CM)
Otiluke's Suppressing Field (CM)
Passage of the Shifting Sands (DM)
Perfect Summons (BoED)
Perinarch (SC)
Phantasmal Killer (PHB)
Phantom Battle (PHB II)
Polymorph (PHB)
Portal Alarm, Improved (SC)
Rainbow Pattern (PHB)
Raise from the Deep (SC)
Ray Deflection (SC)
Ray of Deanimation (SC)
Rebirth of Iron (CM)
Reduce Person, Mass (PHB)
Remove Curse (PHB)
Repair Critical Damage (SC)
Resist Energy, Mass (SC)
Resistance, Greater (SC)
Ruin Delver’s Fortune (SC)
Rusted Blade (CM)
Sandform (Snd)
Scramble Portal (SC)
Scrying (PHB)
Sensory Deprivation (SC)
Shadow Conjuration (PHB)
Shadow Well (SC)
Sharptooth (SC)
Slashing Dispel (PHB II)
Spell Enhancer (SC)
Stifle Spell (PHB II)
Stone Shape (PHB)
Stoneskin (PHB)
Touch of the Blackened Soul (DM)
Treasure Scent (SC)
Trollshape (PHB II)
Voice of the Dragon (SC)
Wall of (alignment) (SC)
Wings of Air, Greater (SC)

5th level
Airy Water (Stm)
Animal Growth (PHB)
Anticold Sphere (SC)
Antifire Sphere (Snd)
Baleful Polymorph (PHB)
Bite of the Wereboar (SC)
Blink, Greater (SC)
Break Enchantment (PHB)
Breath Weapon Substitution (SC)
Contact Other Plane (PHB)
Contingent Energy Resistance (SC)
Dance of Blades (PHB II)
Dismissal (PHB)
Dispel Water (Snd)
Dispelling Breath (SC)
Draconic Might (SC)
Draconic Polymorph (SC)
Dragonsight (SC)
Dream (PHB)
Duelward (SC)
Earth Reaver (SC)
Enlarge Person, Greater (SC)
Ethereal Breath (SC)
Etherealness, Swift (PHB II)
Fabricate (PHB)
False Vision (PHB)
Fever Dream (CM)
Field of Resistance (PHB II)
Fiendform (SC)
Flaying Tendrils (CM)
Flesh to Ice (Fr)
Flesh to Salt (Snd)
Flowsight (Stm)
Fly, Mass (SC)
Form of the Desert Hunter (DM)
Form of the Threefold Beast (CM)
Gutsnake (SC)
Heart of Fire (CM)
Ice Shape (Fr)
Ice to Flesh (Fr)
Illusory Feast (SC)
Indomitability (SC)
Investiture of the Narzugon (FC II)
Investiture of the Orthon (FC II)
Ironguard, Lesser (SC)
Lightning Leap (CM)
Lord of the Sky (DM)
Lucent Lance (SC)
Mana Flux (PHB II)
Mirage Arcana (PHB)
Mordenkainen’s Private Sanctum (PHB)
Nightmare (PHB)
Nightstalker’s Transformation (SC)
Overland Flight (PHB)
Passwall (PHB)
Persistent Image (PHB)
Phantasmal Injury (EoE)
Planar Tolerance (SC)
Prying Eyes (PHB)
Reciprocal Gyre (SC)
Reduce Person, Greater (SC)
Refusal (SC)
Retributive Image (CM)
Seeming (PHB)
Shadow Evocation (PHB)
Shadow Form (SC)
Shadow Guardians (RoD)
Shadow Hand (SC)
Shadowfade (SC)
Spell Matrix, Lesser (SC)
Spell Theft (CS)
Spider Form, Greater (DU)
Stunning Breath (SC)
Surefooted Stride, Mass (SC)
Symbol of Spell Loss (SC)
Telekinesis (PHB)
Telepathic Bond (PHB)
Telepathy Block (BoED)
Touch of Adamantine (BoED)
Touch of Chaos (EoE)
Transformation of the Deeps (Stm)
Transmute Mud to Rock (PHB)
Transmute Rock to Mud (PHB)
Transmute Sand to Glass (Snd)
Transmute Sand to Stone (Snd)
Transmute Stone to Sand (Snd)
Unearthly Heat (Snd)
Unicorn Blood (CM)
Vanishing Weapon (BoED)
Vulnerability (SC)
Wall of Dispel Magic (SC)
Xorn Movement (SC)
Zone of Peace (Cty)
Zone of Respite (SC)

[Zarvistic]

The way the caster level for the Knights spells is determined would perhaps allow for some big boosts too. Even something simple like a duskblade level with practiced spellcaster.

[Thurbane]

The way the caster level for the Knights spells is determined would perhaps allow for some big boosts too. Even something simple like a duskblade level with practiced spellcaster.

Excellent point. Another positive for KoTW.

KotW CL stacks with any other arcane CL they have, so with something like Duskblade 5 entry has full CL on KotW spells. Nice.

The only thing swaying me to SA is their larger spell list.

-----

On an unrelated note, I was looking at a KotW/Renegade Mastermaker build recently (I just file off the serial numbers to remove cross-setting stuff); only just noticed that both classes offer self healing by expending spells.

RM gets 1d6 hp/spell level as a full round action (self only); KotW gets 2 hp/spell level as a standard action, self or others. Interesting.

Although in the build I was considering, KotW wouldn't get to 6th level, since I want to hit RM 10.

[Darg]

KotW is weird, in that it's spells per day and spells known table are one and the same. I don't know that any other class does this.

Does this mean that they get bonus spells known with charisma too :smalltongue:

[Anthrowhale]

The way the caster level for the Knights spells is determined would perhaps allow for some big boosts too. Even something simple like a duskblade level with practiced spellcaster.
This is quite interesting.

It looks like a natural build is Spontaneous Divination Wizard 5/Knight of the Weave 1/Ultimate Magus 10/Wizard 4. You end up with:

Wizard 19 access / wizard caster level 23
KotW 8 access / KotW caster level ... 35? (=23 (wizard caster level) + 8 (KotW caster level)+4 (Arcane Spell Power)).

...without using Practiced Spellcaster / Illumian. I'm not sure how to best leverage the high caster level, but the KotW L5 list contains Spell Resistance (the spell) as one example.

Additionally, you get 6th level spells on the KotW side enabling the use of Persistent Spell for L5- spells on the wizard spell.

Edit: UMD has the DC 20 "Use a Wand" option which applies to staffs, which can leverage the caster level of the user. Hence, it should be possible to leverage caster level 35 with a staff containing a Holy Word type spell to autokill things nearby. Adding in Channel Charge, this could be done using an 8th level wizard slot instead of charges with a DC 22 UMD.

[Darg]

Ultimate Magus is a 7/10 progression for the higher level casting class and 10/10 for the lower level. You would end up with 20 caster levels in wizard. You got the 35 caster levels on the KotW side right... Practiced spellcaster for wizard would get you another 4. Practiced spellcaster wouldn't function on the KotW side as its base caster level surpassed 20.

[holbita]

One point in favor of Suel Arcanamach is that when it comes to using magic devices his spell list is any spell of the abjuration, divination, illusion, and transmutation schools on the sorcerer/wizard spell list. I repeat ANY, not limited to 1st to 5th level. If you are planning on using spell trigger and spell completion items and not planning to invest in use magic device... oh boy, that's a shiny toy to play with.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Knight of the Weave every time.
Even aside from SA's annoying entry requirements there's so many ways to extend your spell list that it's barely a limitation at all.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Every book that's added new spells to the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list has likewise expanded the Suel Arcanamach spell list. Knight of the Weave has never had its spell list expanded by any new material. By default, Suel Arcanamach's spellcasting is better, regardless of the lower max spell level. Anything a KotW can do to expand its available spell list, the SA can also do. If both expend equal resources on this front, the SA still comes out ahead because its base spell list is better by an order of magnitude.

KotW has significantly better spells/day, at least until both classes are at max level. If both classes are taken at the earliest possible level, both get access to 2nd and 3rd level spells at the same character level, but KotW pulls ahead on when it gets access to 4th and higher level spells. If you're multiclassing into either of these and trying to minimize how many levels you lose from your previous class, SA takes fewer levels invested to meet a 2nd or 3rd level arcane spellcasting requirement.

If you're taking the class in order to use it to cast its own spells, I'd say SA is better. If you're taking the class to boost another spellcasting class with additional spell slots and caster level shenanigans, KotW is probably better depending on how many levels it costs you from your primary class.

[Thurbane]

How does this sound for a KotW gish build: Duskblade 5/KotW 8/Sand Shaper 2/Abjurant Champion 5 (not in that exact order)?

I think Sand Shaper would be fantastic to expand spell versatility...

[lylsyly]

I didn't bother to check the prereqs for this but ....

Duskblades Armored Casting only applies to Duskblades spells ....

Knight of the weave IIRC doesn't have that restriction ....

KotW is charisma based while Duskblade INT based ....

Sandshaper 1 is definitely good .... 2nd level is somewhat situational ....

Abj Champ Is Good for anything!!!!!

Duskblade 3 for channeling/Paladin 2 for Divine Grace (CHA to saves)/then Sand Shaper 1/ KotW 8/ Abj Chp 5/Duskblade 1

Personally I would advance Duskblade casting with Abj Champ but you could make an argument for either Duskblade or KotW.

just my 2 credits coppers

YYMV

[MR_Anderson]

KotW allows caster level tricks.

I would recommend looking at a level of Spellthief with feat “Master Spellthief“ and possibly into Sublime Chord after KotW. Even without Sublime Chord you can take advantage of the “Reserves of Strength“ feat. Reserves of Strength works well with the Cure Light spell making it 1d8 + whatever the character’s caster level.

It also helps abuse the following KotW spells:

Magic Missile
Divine Favor
Resist Energy
Dispel Magic
Magic Weapon, Greater
Phantom Steed
Break Enchantment
Disrupting Weapon
Spell Resistance
Banishment
Dispel Magic, Greater


The Reserves of Strength feat takes away the max limits of magic missile, resist energy, and magic weapon, not to mention many other spells from other classes like Duskblade.

It is also worth noting that KotW requires less of an investment of feats which unless you are specifically aiming for what SA offers, makes KotW superior in my personal opinion.

I guess it really depends if your character is a fighter type diving into a class for some spells or if it is an arcane caster adding to the things it can do as to how you progress, but an uncapped melee with access to super high SR, Dispelling ability, unparalleled magic weapon buff, destruction to undead on weapon hits, followed up with massive healing makes it extremely powerful, and close to a one man band.

[Darg]

Reserves of Strength do not uncap the caster level limits of your spells. It lets you choose 1, 2, or 3. This is the number of caster levels you can modify your cast with with this feat. It then goes on to say that you can bypass the limit with the feat. It does not say you can increase the caster level beyond 3 more with the feat.

"When you cast" is not the same as "as you cast." Meaning your chosen caster level happens before the activation of the feat.

I do agree that the KotW is much better for caster level boosting, especially for non-level-limited spells.

[MR_Anderson]

Reserves of Strength do not uncap the caster level limits of your spells.

It does. It allows you to exceed normal fixed limits of spells in conjunction to being stunned.



Reserves of Strength
[General]
When you cast a spell, you can choose to increase its effective caster level at the cost of exausting yourself.

Prerequisite
Iron Will (PH) , Spellcaster Level 1,

Benefit
When you cast a spell, you can decide to increase your caster level with that spell by 1, 2, or 3, but you are stunned for an equal number of rounds immediately after doing so. Your increased caster level affects all level-based variables of the spell, including range, area of effect, spell penetration, and the difficulty of dispelling the spell. You can exceed the normal level-fixed limits of a spell withthis feat, so a 9th-level wizard could use Reserves of Strength to cast a Fireball as a 12th-level wizard and deal 12d6 fire damage.
If you are not subject to stunning effects, you instead suffer 1d6, 3d6, or 5d6 points of damage when you call upon your Reserves of Strength feat.

Example: A Character is a 15th level Wizard and Decides to cast a Fireball with this feat. He increases his caster level by 1. His caster level for the spell is now 16, and the second portion of the feat then removes the fixed limits. The fireball now deals 16d6 and the Wizard is stunned 1 round.

[Endarire]

With the right feats, especially with flaws, you can enter Knight of the Weave at level 2. Besides early entry, I'm unsure which is better on its own.

[Darg]

It does. It allows you to exceed normal fixed limits of spells in conjunction to being stunned.



Example: A Character is a 15th level Wizard and Decides to cast a Fireball with this feat. He increases his caster level by 1. His caster level for the spell is now 16, and the second portion of the feat then removes the fixed limits. The fireball now deals 16d6 and the Wizard is stunned 1 round.

Except you can't have a 15th level wizard with a caster level of 25 cast the fireball at level 28 for 28d6. The highest you could get with the feat would be 13d6 as +3 is the highest the feat allows.


"When you cast" is not the same as "as you cast." Meaning your chosen caster level happens before the activation of the feat.

You chose your caster level before using the feat. The feat's benefit is the only caster level bonus that bypasses the limit.


With the right feats, especially with flaws, you can enter Knight of the Weave at level 2. Besides early entry, I'm unsure which is better on its own.

What feats get you +5 BAB or spontaneously cast 3rd level spells at level 2? Heighten earth spell?

[MR_Anderson]

Except you can't have a 15th level wizard with a caster level of 25 cast the fireball at level 28 for 28d6. The highest you could get with the feat would be 13d6 as +3 is the highest the feat allows.



You chose your caster level before using the feat. The feat's benefit is the only caster level bonus that bypasses the limit.



What feats get you +5 BAB or spontaneously cast 3rd level spells at level 2? Heighten earth spell?

I think you are conflating or trying to make more out of the difference between a Character’s Caster Level and that of a Spell’s Level.



Reserves of Strength
[General]
When you cast a spell, you can choose to increase its effective caster level at the cost of exausting yourself.

Prerequisite
Iron Will (PH) , Spellcaster Level 1,

Benefit
When you cast a spell, you can decide to increase YOUR CASTER LEVEL with that spell by 1, 2, or 3, but you are stunned for an equal number of rounds immediately after doing so. Your increased caster level affects all level-based variables of the spell, including range, area of effect, spell penetration, and the difficulty of dispelling the spell. You can exceed the normal level-fixed limits of a spell withthis feat, so a 9th-level wizard could use Reserves of Strength to cast a Fireball as a 12th-level wizard and deal 12d6 fire damage.
If you are not subject to stunning effects, you instead suffer 1d6, 3d6, or 5d6 points of damage when you call upon your Reserves of Strength feat.

If a Character of Level 15 has the ability to cast Arcane spells as a 25th Level caster, his Spells are Caster Level 25. Let’s look at what happens when he casts a Greater Magic Weapon.

Greater Magic Weapon is Spell Level 3 or Level 4 depending on what class is casting it. In this case we’ll say a KotW, so level 3, where as if it was a Cleric, it would be level 4. The Character’s Arcane Caster Level is 25 for this example, but the Spell has fixed limits on the effect of the spell to a max of 20 levels, but the Caster Level for the spell is still 25th normally, because if someone were to try and Dispel Magic the Greater Magic Weapon it would be against a 25th level caster, not 20th.

Now if the caster had the feat Reserves of Strength, he could choose to add 3 more levels to his CASTER LEVEL and make it 28th, and the feat would remove the fixed limit of 20, which means the spell would now provide +7 on this casting.

Note that the duration of the Greater Magic Weapon Spell is only 3 hours extra as a spell that has been limited by effect on modifier to +5, but the duration is always by Caster Lever. A similar effect is seen with the Fireball spell in which the range of the spell continues to increase with levels, even though damage is fixed at 10d6.

It is true that a caster can cast a spell at less than his max caster level, but spells with limits are cast at the Character’s caster level, unless the spell specifically says otherwise, or the player states he/she is doing otherwise.


Edit to show difference between the examples provided...

Greater Magic Weapon (w/o RoS)
Spell Level: 3rd
Class Level: 5th or higher
Caster Level: 25th in this example
Range: 85’ [25’ + 5’ / 2 Levels(25)]
Duration: 25 Hours
Effect: +5 (Maximum Fixed)
||
Greater Magic Weapon (w/ RoS+3)
Spell Level: 3rd
Class Level: 5th or higher
Caster Level: 28th in this example
Range: 95’ [25’ + 5’ / 2 Levels(28)]
Duration: 28 Hours
Effect: +7 (No longer a Maximum Fixed)

Fireball (w/o RoS)
Spell Level: 3rd
Class Level: 5th or higher
Caster Level: 15th in this example
Range: 1,000’ [400’ + 40’ / Level (15)]
Effect: 10d6 (Maximum Fixed)
||
Fireball (w/ RoS+1)
Spell Level: 3rd
Class Level: 5th or higher
Caster Level: 16th in this example
Range: 1,040’ [400’ + 40’ / Level (16)]
Effect: 16d6 (No longer a Maximum Fixed)