Help me win a bet! (optimized 1v1 wizard or cleric)

[Xeni]

So me and a friend of mine have a bet (he is very wrong). He thinks that mystic theurge is the best thing since sliced bread. He thinks it is stronger than other casting classes (like either wizard or cleric) because it gets the casting of both. I have tried very hard to explain that this is not the case. But it has come down to a test. We are each going to build 3 level 15 characters. He is going to build 3 mystic theurges and I am going to build 2 wizards and a cleric. We will then have these characters fight 1v1 to determine who was right. As it stands I know I can win fairly easily. I don't want to just win, I want to win in an utterly absolute and soul crushing manner.

So, I'd like to ask some help in building 2 wizards and a cleric that are utterly unstoppable 1v1 gods. Feats, prestige classes, items, spell selection, all of it. It's worth noting that he will be optimizing for a 1v1 as well. any insight or inspiration you have is welcome, no matter how small!

Character creation as follows: level 15, standard (25 pts) point buy, all 3.0/3.5 content allowed, the cleric and one of the wizards (as well as two of his mystic theurges) will also be completely without items. The remaining wizard will have standard WBL (200k).

The duel will likely take place on an open field at a distance of 30 ft, it will be illegal to take a rest to regain spells, although teleporting away and healing then teleporting back will be an option for him. He thinks this will help, I want to insta-win every fight.

Feel free to ask any clarification questions!

Edit: while not technically one of the rules I would like to do this operation under the assumption that my characters have had limited time to prep. a test of pure combat ability as it were. Which yes, often comes down to winning the action economy. Also, I am assuming at least one of his characters will use DMM persist spell cheese to gain a host of immunities/SR/AC. So advice for bypassing such would be welcome :)

[newguydude1]

cast polymorph any object. he wont have access to it. turn the very ground hes standing on into either quicksand or lava.

greater planar binding. he wont have access to it. grab as many pit fiends or paeliryons as you can.

if you can prc, use uncanny forethought + simulacrum + dweomerkeeper's supernatural spell after casting suffer the flesh and adept spirit to jack up your cl to 21. then make simulacra of balors, or solars and the like. grab a few levels of wyrm wizard to add consumptive field and greater consumptive field to your list so you can double your cl to a whopping 36 and make simulacra of epic creatures. if you want to fuel consumptive field, either buy a bag of rats, grab summon elemental reserve feat (only works for greater), or polymorph into a great old master neogi and create as many neogi spawns as you want. limited wish gets you access to consumptive field without wyrm wizard. oh and you can make simulacra of advanced creatures so dont let that half hd thing scare you. make a simulacra of a 40hd balor so its a 20hd simulacrum. ignore the component with eschew materials or summon component.

antimagic field and then stay close to him. get a greater planar bound creature grappling him or simulacra.

a wizards strength is actually from the out of combat stuff he can do. if you absolutely have to do in combat stuff then
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?447435-quot-The-Mailman-A-Direct-Damage-Sorcerer-quot-(from-Wizards-forums)
just win initiative and one shot him. you dont need incantatrix or sorcerer.

you gotta teach him getting the powerful spells like gpb 3 levels earlier is a huge, huge, huge thing and endgame 20 strength is not the only thing that matters, not that mystic theurge has it.

just to spite him more planar bind a planetar and have his 17th level cleric casting mess him up. you didnt go theurge and you have 9th level cleric spells all the same.

just in case he misinterpreted the rules, make sure he only has 10 levels of mystic theurge. that prc ends at 10.

to bypass planar binding charisma check, cast geas/quest on the bound creature and make him accept the next contract given to him no matter what.

[sreservoir]

This setup will mostly demonstrate the ability of the internet to win initiative, not the actual ineffectiveness of a theurge. I assure you that, if you chose to argue the other position, you could make the theurge win just as easily. More easily, in fact; if there's one thing casting off multiple lists is good at, it's picking up low-level initiative boosting spells.

[newguydude1]

This setup will mostly demonstrate the ability of the internet to win initiative, not the actual ineffectiveness of a theurge. I assure you that, if you chose to argue the other position, you could make the theurge win just as easily. More easily, in fact; if there's one thing casting off multiple lists is good at, it's picking up low-level initiative boosting spells.

i agree. no prebuffs and the initiative winner wins. the end.
with prebuffs then you just grab your army of epic monsters and have them win for you while your safe inside an antimagic field.

wizard is stronger because he has **** strong spells, and going pure wizard gets them 3 whole levels earlier.

[magicalmagicman]

The real cost of mystic theurge is Prestige Classes. As mentioned above, Dweomerkeeper gives you free spells. Free Gates. Free Wishes. Free Simulacrum. Your giving all this up for cleric casting which as newguydude1 pointed out, is obtainable without investing in cleric levels yourself.

Incantatrix gives you the ability to persist every single spell in the game with a skill check, and a ton of free metamagic feats.

Shadowcraft Mage with the right build gives you access to 9th level spells stupidly early in the game. I think it was a 4th level wizard casting 9th level spells?

Malconvoker when combined with Infernal Bargainer gives you +2 to your planar binding hd cap, letting you planar bind Titans and Solars.

Delaying your high level spell acquisition by 3 levels in addition to sacrificing the above is not worth it, not by a long shot.

[Xeni]

Thanks for the advice guys, if you were in the theurge's position how would you try to win this?

[newguydude1]

Thanks for the advice guys, if you were in the theurge's position how would you try to win this?

if i was in the theurge's position, i would
option a.
surge of fortune lets you roll a natural 20.
so id get a vorpal dagger, throw it at you, activate surge of fortune to roll that 20, and voila. your head is chopped off just because i won initiative.
prebuffing stops this. cause there are lots of ways to protect yourself from a ranged attack. like concealment or mirror image or contingency and the like.

option b.
1. be a neraphim for la+0 outsider
2. grab infernal bargainer feat
3. planar bind a planetar with planar binding
4. grab the feat assume supernatural ability: share spells from savage species
5. cast girallons blessing on myself (for hands for somatic component)
6. polymorph into a symbiote from fiend folio
7. id latch onto the planetar and cast silent divine metamagic persistent spell buffs on the planetar.
antimagic field is good if i know you wont go the minion route like i suggested.
consumptive field lets you have infinite strength, limit is the number of things you kill with the spell. so with the neogi thing i can give my planetar like +200 strength.

and stuff like that. just have my planetar one shot you.

divine metamagic is the one and only thing clerics have that wizards dont. but wizards can get access to it too. certain prcs give turn undead, and the illumian race lets you use turn undead to fuel your metamagic like divine metamagic, only twice a day though.

but both utterly fail against the epic creature army. depending on the build you have titans, solars, or even epic creatures like abominations, while hes stuck with a planetar. your own antimagic field would just kill his +200 strength from consumptive field and render him down to just a beatstick. really, theurge cannot win.

[Xeni]

And if i'm assuming he has lots of day long buffs in place do you know of any good way to identify them all? to know if I need to waste an action dispelling.

[newguydude1]

And if i'm assuming he has lots of day long buffs in place do you know of any good way to identify them all? to know if I need to waste an action dispelling.

cant help you there. id just hit him with an antimagic ray from the get go and kill 100% of his defense and offense. because cleric buffs are scary, and a buffless cleric is a joke. its in spell compendium.

thats right, you land that antimagic ray on him and thats a win right there. because orb spells, being instantaneous duration conjuration spells, work in dead magic and antimagic fields assuming you cast the spell from outside. while he cant cast even a single spell.

[Gruftzwerg]

Thanks for the advice guys, if you were in the theurge's position how would you try to win this?

Wizard 5 / Ur-Priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 8 / arcane prc 5

double 9th lvl spells and still room for some prc shenanigan (5 lvls)

____
Really, imho all breaks down to how much cheese you subjectively find ok. You can optimize both into nirvana. And than there is the lvl1 incarnation of pun-pun. So a single lvl can break the game (legal). "What was the point of the argument again?" I hope you see how such discussions are just a waste of time and thought ^^

[Xeni]

thats right, you land that antimagic ray on him and thats a win right there. because orb spells, being instantaneous duration conjuration spells, work in dead magic and antimagic fields assuming you cast the spell from outside. while he cant cast even a single spell.


lmao, i love the fact that spells like that exist purely to defeat buff stacking

[Xeni]

Wizard 5 / Ur-Priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 8 / arcane prc 5

its only level 15



Really, imho all breaks down to how much cheese you subjectively find ok. You can optimize both into nirvana. And than there is the lvl1 incarnation of pun-pun. So a single lvl can break the game (legal). "What was the point of the argument again?" I hope you see how such discussions are just a waste of time and thought ^^

And we are assuming minimal preparation(all day buffs only) and for at least two of the fights absolutely no itemization. that limits the cheese quite well. (not completely obviously). And there is still a valid discussion to be had about the efficacy of the classes in regards to everything excepting infinite combos and similar ridiculousness.

Also its never a waste to be proven right! lol

[newguydude1]

And we are assuming minimal preparation(all day buffs only) and for at least two of the fights absolutely no itemization. that limits the cheese quite well. (not completely obviously). And there is still a valid discussion to be had about the efficacy of the classes in regards to everything excepting infinite combos and similar ridiculousness.

Also its never a waste to be proven right! lol

minions are permanent duration buffs. dont know why its not allowed. its one of the biggest guns wizards have, and probably the most infamous one at that too.

anyways thats all i got. amfs, minions, and mailman. hope you win.

dont forget about celerity line of spells.

[Gruftzwerg]

its only level 15
sry, I have to admit that I just flew over the OP. But still:
7th lvl wizard & 9th lvl ur-priest at lvl 15.



And we are assuming minimal preparation(all day buffs only) and for at least two of the fights absolutely no itemization. that limits the cheese quite well. (not completely obviously). And there is still a valid discussion to be had about the efficacy of the classes in regards to everything excepting infinite combos and similar ridiculousness.

Also its never a waste to be proven right! lol

are we assuming some kind of gentlemen duel situation here? (Where both see each other and someone gives the start signal)

Otherwise I assume the one with the most luck on his spot roll will win. Since both types of build don't focus on that skill, it's just pure luck who gets to act first and thus win.

[Xeni]

are we assuming some kind of gentlemen duel situation here? (Where both see each other and someone gives the start signal)

lmao, yeah that's pretty well it. it'll be start at 30 ft apart on open field and roll initiative. I plan on using moment of prescience/nerveskitter to guarantee a first turn. thanks to newguydude1 ill then hit him with an antimagic ray and proceed to do as i please.

Im also thinking of taking a luck feat or two to eliminate the possibility of an unlucky roll deciding things


Edit:

minions are permanent duration buffs. dont know why its not allowed. its one of the biggest guns wizards have, and probably the most infamous one at that too.

that's a good point actually, its getting late here and I'm going to bed soon. but ill bring that up to him tomorrow and get back to you.

[Anthrowhale]

3 optimized builds is quite a bit of work.

Perhaps you can make the point via:
1) Wizard 5/Rainbow Servant 10 which gives full access to the cleric list without spell delay as long as text trumps table (which is the rule).
2) An Arcane Disciple Cleric 15 gets access to 15 wizard spells at the cost of domains and turning. Alternatively, the Divine Magician Cleric ACF grants access to 8 wizard spells from Abjuration/Necromancy/Divination at the cost of a domain. Alternatively, the spell domain provides access to all L5- arcane spells.
3) Use the feat 'Channel Charge' +UMD to gain access to any spell one level lower than your maximum on any list.
?

If it comes down to a fight at level 15,
Defensively: Mystic Shield (L8 wizard abjuration spell) + Starmantle (L6 wizard abjuration spell) + Spelldancer 2 + Ocular spell + Persistent Spell provides immunity to much of what a theurge can do. Mystic Shield gives immunity to all L6- spells while Starmantle provides immunity to weapons with Spelldancer 2 providing free metamagic and evasion.

Offensively: Contingency[Celerity][Cast Nerveskitter] is a good way to get an extra action at the beginning of combat, particularly if you have daze immunity. Combining with Craft Contingent Spell gives a potentially absurd number of actions at the beginning of combat.

For the items-allowed combat, scrolls of Time Stop or Disjunction can be very powerful in PvP. You can cast them with zero error via Arcane Mastery.

[Gruftzwerg]

lmao, yeah that's pretty well it. it'll be start at 30 ft apart on open field and roll initiative. I plan on using moment of prescience/nerveskitter to guarantee a first turn. thanks to newguydude1 ill then hit him with an antimagic ray and proceed to do as i please.

Im also thinking of taking a luck feat or two to eliminate the possibility of an unlucky roll deciding things


You see, with all the talk about limitations we are at the point of how much cheese subjectively is ok (by setting limiting conditions). This is the reason why these discussions end in discussing "under which parameter the discussion is to be hold" forever and thus never come to a conclusion. Since this point will come up again and again in this discussion in various forms, we will never have a final conclusion. If seen it often enough^^

further to cut your approach: I don't see anything that the Wizard 5 / Ur-Priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 8 couldn't do too. We have 13 lvl of wizard casting and thus also have access to Antimagic Ray/Nerveskitter. And the luck domain can give access to Moment of Prescience. So again luck will decide. You would need to use 8th lvl wizard spells in your approach to make a difference here.

___
I'll be waiting to see how long it takes for the others to see that this discussion is pointless (due to the mentioned reasons in my first post)

[Melcar]

So me and a friend of mine have a bet (he is very wrong). He thinks that mystic theurge is the best thing since sliced bread. He thinks it is stronger than other casting classes (like either wizard or cleric) because it gets the casting of both. I have tried very hard to explain that this is not the case. But it has come down to a test. We are each going to build 3 level 15 characters. He is going to build 3 mystic theurges and I am going to build 2 wizards and a cleric. We will then have these characters fight 1v1 to determine who was right. As it stands I know I can win fairly easily. I don't want to just win, I want to win in an utterly absolute and soul crushing manner.

So, I'd like to ask some help in building 2 wizards and a cleric that are utterly unstoppable 1v1 gods. Feats, prestige classes, items, spell selection, all of it. It's worth noting that he will be optimizing for a 1v1 as well. any insight or inspiration you have is welcome, no matter how small!

Character creation as follows: level 15, standard (25 pts) point buy, all 3.0/3.5 content allowed, the cleric and one of the wizards (as well as two of his mystic theurges) will also be completely without items. The remaining wizard will have standard WBL (200k).

The duel will likely take place on an open field at a distance of 30 ft, it will be illegal to take a rest to regain spells, although teleporting away and healing then teleporting back will be an option for him. He thinks this will help, I want to insta-win every fight.

Feel free to ask any clarification questions!

Edit: while not technically one of the rules I would like to do this operation under the assumption that my characters have had limited time to prep. a test of pure combat ability as it were. Which yes, often comes down to winning the action economy. Also, I am assuming at least one of his characters will use DMM persist spell cheese to gain a host of immunities/SR/AC. So advice for bypassing such would be welcome :)

Well, the power output of the characters are based primarily on which spells they have access too... as I assume with cheese they have access to all spells, they are equally powerful. Then it becomes a question of who goes first. Having spells that makes you start, you both start, and then its just a question of who has Initiate of Mystra feat... you probably both have that, so its a matter of who fights best... you both probably fight about equally well, so what about items... who has most money... well who knows, you are probably about equal there too...

So it all comes down to who uses more cheese...

[Kaleph]

First things first, I believe that a PvP encounter isn't representative for the question "is concept A better than concept B?", simply because D&D isn't based on PvP; the thing that comes closest to "better" is "higher tier", which is measured along a complete campaign not only against multiple kinds of enemies, but also in non-combat encounters.

Second, holding the encounter @ level 15 is definitely advantageous for the theurge; if you really want to go this way, you should repeat the challenge at level 5 and 10 also.

That said, one of the characters I'd build is a silverbrow human cleric with inquisition domain, divine defiance, arcane mastery, that wee jas affiliation that gives you 1/day a free counterspell, ring of spellbattle, bond ritual of magic and spellcaster's bane (through divine magician). In a nutshell, an unerring dispeller/counterspeller. There's an handbook out somewhere, maybe you can get some nice ideas for alternative counterspelling builds (e.g. abjurer/master specialist/initiate of the sevenfold veil).

If you plan on winning initiative at any cost, the best mileage you get could be the shadow illusion ability of the shadowcraft mage. I guess it has been already mentioned, so 'nuff said.

[newguydude1]

Second, holding the encounter @ level 15 is definitely advantageous for the theurge; if you really want to go this way, you should repeat the challenge at level 5 and 10 also.

no its not. greater planar binding and polymorph any object kills any advantage the theurge has.

[King of Nowhere]

This setup will mostly demonstrate the ability of the internet to win initiative, not the actual ineffectiveness of a theurge. I assure you that, if you chose to argue the other position, you could make the theurge win just as easily.

In addition to that, a 1v1 fight does not demonstrate anything. the theurge main strenght is vast number and choice of spell, making it a very good support. A theurge may be able to buff its party better than a pure cleric or wizard. that, of course, would not show up in a 1v1 fight. for the same reason, a bard would look very bad in a 1v1 fight, though they are quite useful for the party as a whole.

[Saint-Just]

Most likely the lvl 15 was intended to demonstrate "optimized wizard and/or cleric can beat a mystic theurge even at the lvl most beneficial to the theurge"

[Kaleph]

no its not. greater planar binding and polymorph any object kills any advantage the theurge has.

So do you mean that, from the theurge's perspective, level 15 isn't better than level 5? Because that's exactly what I've meant.

In addition, AFAIU greater planar binding isn't on the table, per OP. Finally, PAO is nice and all, and may mean instant end-of-the-encounter. More or less as other powerful spells that a 15th-level theurge may drop (am I wrong, or Cleric 1/Wizard 4/Ur-priest 1/Theurge 9 casts 9th level cleric spells? I'm too lazy to check). So, I really don't get your comment.


Most likely the lvl 15 was intended to demonstrate "optimized wizard and/or cleric can beat a mystic theurge even at the lvl most beneficial to the theurge"
Definitely; that's ok if this is what they've agreed, but the encounter won't demonstrate that much.

[newguydude1]

So do you mean that, from the theurge's perspective, level 15 isn't better than level 5? Because that's exactly what I've meant.

you cant be a theurge at 5 unless you pull shenanigans. so its not a fight at all. and you said at 15 theurge has the advantage. it doesnt. it never has the advantage. higher level spells > lower level spells, divine arcane or both.


In addition, AFAIU greater planar binding isn't on the table, per OP. Finally, PAO is nice and all, and may mean instant end-of-the-encounter. More or less as other powerful spells that a 15th-level theurge may drop (am I wrong, or Cleric 1/Wizard 4/Ur-priest 1/Theurge 9 casts 9th level cleric spells? I'm too lazy to check). So, I really don't get your comment.

pao gives unimaginable defensive buffs. cast twice and your a permanent whatever. perma burrow underground so you can start the fight completely underground as in cleric has absolutely no way of doing anything to you even if he beats your initiative. and then cast pao underground cause you only need to target the ground under him, not him directly to insta win.

no way you put it, 2v1 13thlevel wizard + cleric will lose to a solo 15th level wizard.

[Kaleph]

you cant be a theurge at 5 unless you pull shenanigans. so its not a fight at all. and you said at 15 theurge has the advantage. it doesnt. it never has the advantage. higher level spells > lower level spells, divine arcane or both.



pao gives unimaginable defensive buffs. cast twice and your a permanent whatever. perma burrow underground so you can start the fight completely underground as in cleric has absolutely no way of doing anything to you even if he beats your initiative. and then cast pao underground cause you only need to target the ground under him, not him directly to insta win.

no way you put it, 2v1 13thlevel wizard + cleric will lose to a solo 15th level wizard.

I'm too lazy to explain you what I've meant.

[AvatarVecna]

If you're attempting to prove that Wizard 15 is better than Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 9, the approach you need to work with is quality over quantity: you need to show that having access to higher-level spells is more useful than having a high number of lower-level spells. You'll have access to 7th and 8th lvl cleric spells while he won't, you'll have an extra 3 CL and he won't. Use that to your advantage. Some standouts:

Blood To Water targets up to 5 creatures within 30 ft of each other. It checks vs SR and gives a Fort save for half damage. It deals 2d6 Constitution damage. This will drastically lower their Con scores, their HP, their Concentration checks, and their Fort saves, which not much chance they'll be able to resist unless they're really specced for Fort saves already.

Greater Consumptive Field is a quick way to give your cleric CL +8/Str +16/Temp HP +8d8. We mostly care about the CL +8, so what you'll wanna do is have your guys summon some weak monsters into the AoE.

Mass Spell Resistance will get all your guys covered with SR 27 for a single action, making you 3/4 immune to most stuff his guys can throw at you. Yes, there's ways for him to get around SR by burning through spell slots in other ways, but it costs him his swift so he can't get two attack spells per turn via quickening, he's gonna have to settle for one that can actually penetrate your SR.

Chain Dispel will be useful in a fight that involves prebuffs - cast this to have a good chance of stripping off most everything your opponent has buffing them. This is more effective against characters who have a lot of low level spells combined than it is against somebody with real CL who has a few good buffs.

Golem Immunity is "SR: Yes" if you just really wanna ruin his day. YMMV on which version to use against him.

Greater Planar Ally summons up an 18 HD planar creature for a small bit of XP. Lots of good options here, look for something that can bring more casting to the field.

Heat Drain is AoE 1d6/CL in 20 ft radius that's Fort negates and SR Yes. If you've already got Great Consumptive Field powered up, +23 vs SR (when they probably have SR 24) and 20d6 cold damage is pretty solid, although if they're immune that's less good.

Mass Death Ward is a single action/spell slot to get all three of your guys protected against large sections of spells.

Antimagic Ray might have trouble sticking since he'll have a good Will save, but if it works it'll completely shut him down.

Arcane Spellsurge will let you summon and cast a more normal spell in the same round for every round of the combat without requiring you to prepare half those spells as Quickened.

Power Word Blind only checks SR and HP, and there's no way this guy has 200+ normally (12d4+3d8 is max 72 pre-Con, so he's gonna need +8 from Con - even FMI Passions shouldn't see him with enough Int to hit that, and that's assuming max die rolls). It only affects a single creature, but it's a lot more likely to work than Antimagic Ray, and it'll steal at least one action from his team (to heal the blindness), or maybe steal two (if the blinded person goes first and can't heal themselves), or maybe more if you're able to shut down his teammates too.

Ghostform gives you incorporeality. This lets you go through walls to break LoS/LoE, and gives you a 50% chance to dodge most magic stuff.

Greater Celerity lets you take a full round action as an immediate action, in exchange for being dazed for a turn. By default, this lets you take two turns this turn in exchange for taking zero turns next turn, which is still a fantastic benefit even if you aren't dodging the consequences somehow.

Greater Planar Binding is one of those spells that can unlock infinite power (although fair warning, so is Planar Binding, which your opponents will have access to). but even if not used in that way, you can still pull off quite an impressive summon in a more straightforward approach.

Mind Blank essentially blocks three schools from targeting you, two of which are dangerous if they affect you, and one of which is dangerous because it can find you. Being unfindable is a good way to win this competition.

Polymorph Any Object has infinite uses and all of them are fun. Turn a rock into a roc. Turn your opponent into a commoner version of himself. Turn your familiar into your opponent.

Superior Invisibility beats basically anything except True Seeing. Which yes, your opponent has access to, but it's expensive and has limited range.

[Xervous]

PVP is not a great way to settle this. In absence of prebuffing on a featureless expanse there could be a hulking hurler, ubercharger, mailman, fear specialist.


You need a same game test for a range of levels. Establish various reasonable adventuring scenarios that the character and their party would encounter, then spell out how the character addresses it at what efficiency and speed.

Assuming you have not sprung for options like ur-priest, which taint the discussion, the theurge will flounder on providing necessary effects at the levels they are expected.

3wiz3cleric into theurge is three levels delayed on obtaining impregnate spells.

They don’t see fly until level 8 meaning basic traversal puzzles remain a problem, the archer can’t be flown to trivialize the pack of hungry direwolves etc.

Remove blindness/deafness, curse, disease are offset by 3 levels, as are other similar status restoration effects. Temporary conditions that would normally be removed the next day instead persist for 3 more levels.

Locate object, scrying, teleport. All these paradigm shifting spells come online later. The theurge won’t be able to hold a candle to the narrative impact of these spells.

Polymorph, cloudkill, wall of X. Powerhouse spells that redefine combat are absent for longer. If an optional encounter could be decided by one of these (And Only that level of spell) that’s an encounter the Theurge is behind for.

Theurge is only really relevant when you have no better options and/or the party is sufficiently high level, or there’s massive resource attrition that could run through ALL a wizards relevant slots.

[Twurps]

Sounds like fun.
I don't have much to offer other than: winning initiative is going to matter A LOT, and 'nerveskitter' alone isn't going to do it. (if only because your opponent has it too).

However: whilst winning initiative is very effective at winning an encounter, it's going to be less effective at winning the argument. Anybody can get 'lucky' with an initiative roll. (Regardless of whether it's actually luck, or a result of your build). If you want to win your argument, you want to survive at least one round of 'whatever he got' and only then kill with 'whatever you got'.

In addition, much like AvatarVecna said, either your superior protection or 'whatever you got' better something he doesn't have access too, else you'll just be comparing combat/spell selection skills instead of actual builds.


On a sidenote: PunPun is available at lvl 1, and already has infinite power. so comparing anything at lvl15 is going to be useless without some strict ground-rules. The problem with that is that ultimately, the winner will be decides by 'where you draw the line' in your ground-rules, not be the capacity of any of these builds per se. Don't let that stop you from having fun with this though.

[bean illus]

Hmmm ...

1. This doesn't prove anything.

1 b. It sorta proves who has the most system mastery, but only in an unlikely situation, and one frankly leaning toward the higher caster level.

2. Bringing the question here invalidates 1 b.

3. Also, theurge builds come late, and some are better at certain levels.

4. Why not duel after a hard day campaigning with their parties, when it's possibly more advantageous to the MT?

Are these straight builds, the wiz and cleric? No prc?

What about the theurge? Early entry?

I'll try level 13, sorcerer 2/ favored soul 1/ MT 10
Versatile Spellcaster, Heighten Spell

Let's replicate a strong situation for the theurge. After 3 encounters, the wizard or cleric may have used up 65% of their spells. We just represent that randomly, and each spell of their prepared loadout has a random 65% of having been used already.
To replicate the theurge utility, let's say the MT has used 20% more slots than the straight wizard has.

And who's to say that this wizard is fully healed? We know the theurge is. Maybe we should use your cleric, too, so you're healed? Oh, 65% of his class abilities are used up.

That's cool.
A wizard 13 and a cleric 13. They meet 2 MT, for the 4th encounter of the day. Both parties recently have just had EVERYTHING dispelled, and every participant has 50% hp.

Both parties are aware who the next encounter is with, and that it will start within moments, but aren't certain when (1d4+1 rd)!

Ready? The beleaguered wizard and cleric party have 2-3 7ths left, between them. Maybe 4-5 6ths left between them. Their other slots don't look much better. Many best spells are gone, and healing and rebuffing is using them at a rapid rate.

The matching opposite sorcerer fs theurges have virtually every spell they know, still ready to spam, and burning spells to heal and rebuff is equally no big deal.

?Who rebuffs better after a hard 3rd encounter?
This unlikely scenario is about as likely as dueling spellcasters at dawn.

But if your buddie doesn't know that, and refuses to admit it, then maybe using the playground to stomp his cleric 3/ wizard 3/ mt 9 with a wiz 15 is just gonna happen.

[Maat Mons]

Does "completely without items" mean without a spellbook or holy symbol?

[Gruftzwerg]

If warlocks are allowed, I would go with an warlock 6/alienist 9 build to win the competition. (alienist ain't really needed but a nice icing here).

1. Dragonwrought Kobold (to start with CHA 21 >> 24 @ lvl 12)
3. Spell Focus (Conjuration)
6. Augment Summoning
9. Flexible Mind (hide & move silently = max if possible after this point)
12. Beckon the Frozen
15. Obtain Familiar (Bat)

See the Unseen - 24h see invisibility
Devil's Sight - to see in magical darkness 24h
Entrophic Warding - 20% misschance against ranged attacks

Hungry Darkness - (@lvl6 to enter Alienist, since HD summons a bat swarm and thus is 3rd lvl summoning spell for that purpose of entering a prc)
Fell Flight - 24h fly
Walk Unseen - 24h invisible unless you attack (summons and familiar attacks don't make you visible)

Tenacious Plague - our main ability to win the fight
Hellspawned Grace - our backup strategy
Nightmares Made Real - another backup strategy

Tenacious Plague:

Summons 5 locus swarms (@lvl 15) per standard action! Since they are stationary, you can and you may summon more of em each round you can cover a big area fast if he should be somehow invisible/hidden.

The Distraction ability (base DC12) is affected by the CON modifier of the swarm and the warlocks CHA modifier.
12 + 2(+4 Con from Augment Summoning) + 7 (CHA 24) = DC 21 Fortitude
As Mystic Theurge, his Fortitude save should be low which should cause him problems. On failed save he is nauseated for 1 round. Rolls are forced every round he still remains in the stationary swarm.

the swarm automatically deal 2d6 + 1d6(cold) dmg every turn.


Pseudonatural Familiar
Has high SR 25; Acid & Electricity Resistance 15 and DR10/magic and boosted attacks. A pretty nasty fellow for any enemy chaster. Can be a viable backup strategy.

Nightmares Made Real
A nice dmg source that can root your enemy if he should fail the save (Will DC 23 = 10 + 6th lvl + 7Cha). I expect that you enemy will have a better save bonus against this. But if the fails he now can't leave the locust swarm anymore. The swarm may die later due to the dmg, but we can cast every round more, so that ain't a problem. What is more important is that if you enemy should have access to see invisibility somehow, you can drop this to hide (HIPS) in it. That is the reason to put ranks into hide & move silently with Flexible Mind.

Hellspawned Grace
A Hellcat is a good option against enemy casters.
Just the shier amount of special qualities you get will overpower him:
Damage reduction 5/good, darkvision 60 ft., invisible in light, resistance to fire 10, scent, spell resistance 19, telepathy 100 ft.
Not to forget the pounce rake improved grab combo and you have a formidable fighting form to beat your enemy.


Depending on your enemies build, one of the options this build has should work out. This is due to the ruleset that you have tailored ;)
The main upside is due to the 24h buffs you will be invisible flying (away from your familiar to mislead your enemy) at the start of the duel. Because of this, even if you lose initiative, your enemy first has to waste action to see/locate you. This build will be the one to attack (indirect so you can keep being invisible) first, no matter what your enemy builds with his theurge.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

To win with the Mystic Theurges, all three take Initiate of Mystra and all three have Antimagic Field cast.

[Silentline]

Doesn't matter how many spells the mystic theurge has.

Just make sure you have 1 level of archmage allowing
(High arcana: Master of Counterspelling) You know for a fact he's going mystic theurge. So his number of attacks is limited and predictable.

Make sure you possess more attacks than your caster opposition. Counter all his spells so they are deflect back at him. This should leave you with 1 attack. Use that to target any protections he has.. Drow spell Arcane backfire will do damage to him based on those protections without officially targeting the caster for counter reactive spells (I hope I got the spell title right. If not look it up under the Drow of the underdark spell list section). Every round your foe.should be at the mercy of 1 spell from you. Buff this with haste and make sure you hit the foe with slow at first opportunity.

Get a celestial gerbil or something very, very, very intelligent and also have it cast spells. Summon hand fulls of terrifying creatures to frustrate and collapse his defenses. Once he's cornered by them. Curse all the minions to explode when they die (somebody look up that.spell cause I don't have it on hand right now.) in case your foe decides to target them instead of you. All the while keep Counterspelling everything he does.

Thank you for your time and I hope I've been of some help.

I killed therest because it's a hijacking cross topic.

[Eldariel]

cant help you there. id just hit him with an antimagic ray from the get go and kill 100% of his defense and offense. because cleric buffs are scary, and a buffless cleric is a joke. its in spell compendium.

thats right, you land that antimagic ray on him and thats a win right there. because orb spells, being instantaneous duration conjuration spells, work in dead magic and antimagic fields assuming you cast the spell from outside. while he cant cast even a single spell.

...your cunning plan is to cast a Will negates single target Ray on a Wisdom-based triple-good-Will character with the best tools in the game to boost their touch AC? I'm sorry but I'm not entirely convinced by this idea.


@OP: Well, if he's persistomancing, obviously persistomancy yourself. Wizards can use Incantatrix or Spelldancer, Cleric doesn't need either (but should use Divine Disciple or such for Outsider Polymorph forms). Antimagic Field is a good protection. Selective Antimagic Field means you can walk next to them and they'll be Antimagicked while you won't. Further, you'll be protected from everything. Persist it while at it and enjoy. Share with your familiar and pick Familiar Spellbond as a feat so they can do the same of course.

You do want to abuse Polymorph Any Object, Mind Blank (indeed, Contingency to Teleport away and then start scry'n'die war where he can be detected while you can't is probably the way to ensure you'll win either way), Simulacrum, Greater Planar Binding, etc. You have a number of crazy spells at your disposal that he's entirely forswearing so obviously, to make this point, you should win with those spells. Though Initiate of Mystra is probably the ultimate solution to this since AMF is otherwise quite strong. Don't forget to make yourself immortal and all that (simple Favor of the Martyr + regeneration or Delay Death + Beastland Ferocity - you can do that pretty easily as a Wizard or Cleric), jack up your numbers, have the ability to instantly delete him numerically (persistent Consumptive Field + Bag of Rats is a nice one for instance on top of your Draconic Polymorph & al.) and then just focus on the fact that you have Greater Teleport, Mind Blank, Holy Word-line, Limited Wish, etc. that he doesn't. Dweomerkeeper Cleric can for instance get free Limited Wishes at this point which he can't access. You can also jack up your caster level pretty high so you can just walk through his Antimagic Field and Initiate of Mystra spells at him.

[Asmotherion]

-Just build an Incantatrix and persist a bunsh of buffs that make you Immune to everything and give a bunsh of unfair advantages like Wraithstrike, Greater Dimension Door, Ruin Delver's Fortune X3, Ray Deflection (Replicate via Limited Wish), energy imunity for every element you're not already imune to (see PaO bellow) (in standard "powertesting" duels, any spell that has a longer duration than 12 hours is considered on). Use Celarity, Nerveskitter and everything that makes you play first. Scintilating Scales may also prove useful if he uses a lot of touch attacks. And, let's not forget Death Ward, though I'd advise to instead wear an item that grands it. Actually, you could invest a part of your Wealth by Level for items that give some of these buffs.

-Be invisible. Greater Planar Bind a bunsh of usefull things. Create Greater Undead some others. Things that deal Abilty Score Damage or Negative Levels, or that restrict his abilities. Wait it out; Chances are, he'll be able to survive, but you'll have a pretty good idea of what his core strategy is, and you'll force him to use a bunsh of usefull spell slots. Since he's sooo overconfident, he probably won't object.

-Have a look at Dispelling spells as an oppening strategy in a duel; If he's anywere near competant, it'll be worth it, otherwise, It's still a good strategy. I also strongly advice to have Battlemagic Perception AND Arcane Sight active, so you'll know when you need to dispell. True Casting and Assay Spell resistance may help too.

-Polymorph any Object. With Share Spell on your Familiar, you can both effectivelly become a variety of useful Monsters, and, with the right choice, you can still cast your Spells in that form. I suggest a couple of Planetars, and use the Planetar's Change Shape to both appear in your own form so that he can't know you're effectivelly imune to any non-evil damage. Do the Same for your Familiar. Through share spells, make it seem that your Fammiliar is casting spells instead of you; He'll focus on your familiar and ignore you.

-Fell Drain metamagic. Use it. Lock him out of his more powerful spells.

-Have a look at Selective Antimagic Field Strategies together with a good Grapler Familiar.

All this, if used the right way, should be overkill.

[Jack_Simth]

hit him with an antimagic ray and proceed to do as i please. Spell Compendium version of Antimagic ray is Will negates. The Mystic Theurge has good Will saves all around, and likely a decent Wisdom score as well. If you can make him fail a will save, why not just cast Insanity or something?

[Asmotherion]

Spell Compendium version of Antimagic ray is Will negates. The Mystic Theurge has good Will saves all around, and likely a decent Wisdom score as well. If you can make him fail a will save, why not just cast Insanity or something?

And even in the off chance you surrpass his Will Save AND potentially SR... At that level, who goes in combat without being under a Ray Deflection spell? :smallconfused: He is part cleric... that means he will have persistant buffs active at all times.

Antimagic Ray, wile it sounds cool, is really a horrible spell; The fact that it's a Will Save instead of a Ranged Touch Attack makes it suffer from the same stuff that downgrade Dissintergrade as a blasting spell (And we all know how little it takes to buff all your saves to around +30 with next to no investment), and the Fact it's namelly a ray means that anything interacting with Rays (such as Ray Defflection) interacts the same way with it. In other words, an enemy must be extreamly unoptimised or unlucky (actually even luck can be optimised, but anyway, besides the point here), to ever be affected by it, at least when fighting something in their CR range.

[Gruftzwerg]

btw, I thought I was missing something all the time..^^

Spellblade : Antimagic Ray
For a mere 6k on your magic weapon you can become immune to Antimagic Ray. Imho it's a cheap option and should be considered default equip for both participants. So, delete Antimagic Ray from your kill combos (since they will fail) and find new options xD

[Eldariel]

btw, I thought I was missing something all the time..^^

Spellblade : Antimagic Ray
For a mere 6k on your magic weapon you can become immune to Antimagic Ray. Imho it's a cheap option and should be considered default equip for both participants. So, delete Antimagic Ray from your kill combos (since they will fail) and find new options xD

Why waste money? Simple Ray Deflection or Friendly Fire persisted makes you immune to all rays, not just Antimagic Ray. Friendly Fire makes it autohit your enemy if within 30' instead. Hell, Friendly Fire can even be used as an immediate action without having to even bother with persisting. And that's before considering how damn easy it is to boost your touch AC to a point where enemy will struggle to land their touch attacks even with True Strike.

No, Antimagic Field is about 100 times the spell Antimagic Ray is. Selective, Initiate of Mystra, Extraordinary Spell Aim or otherwise to make it not affect you.

[Anthrowhale]

...Selective, Initiate of Mystra, Extraordinary Spell Aim or otherwise to make it not affect you.

I believe these are rather different effects.

Selective makes the AMF not affect you. This really matters if you are incorporeal, but otherwise does not. Your items, spells cast on you, your spells/SLAs/Supernatural abilities remain suppressed as do the same used on you.

Initiate of Mystra makes it so the AMF does not affect your spells. Other spells and your items are suppressed. If you are incorporeal, you still wink out. Your SLAs and supernatural abilities are suppressed.

Extraordinary Spell Aim shapes the AMF so it does not affect you. All magic applies to you and can be created by you normally. If you are incorporeal, you do not wink out. Anyone elsewhere in the AMF suffers the normal effects as do the spells/items/SLAs/SUs you use into the remaining area.

An interesting alternative is using Otiluke's Suppressing Field. This suppresses spells and spell effects (produced by spells, SLAs, or items) of insufficient caster level, but otherwise leaves SUs and items intact. If you optimize caster level, your spells work but others do not in an Initiate of Mystra style except without requiring a feat. It's not as good defensively as AMF, but it's much better than AMF+Extraordinary Spell Aim and you get to keep many important items/abilities relative to AMF.

Antimagic Ray is primarily useful defensively by an Initiate of Mystra since you can suppress all foreign spells/SLAs/SUs while keeping your spells and items intact.