The Irrelevance of the 9 Sides

[Toad]

I've seen a lot of people tossing around the Demon Roach's comment about the 9 Sides, and trying to take it as a major piece of foreshadowing. This makes sense: while the Demon Roaches exist primarily for comedic relief, they are observers of the fourth wall in a narrative where meta-analysis is a legitimate power ala Elan and Tarquin.

However, I want to criticize the use of the 9 Sides as a serious argument because not only is it pedantic and unproductive, it was written to be pedantic and unproductive in universe. Here's the exchange, paraphrased.

Jirix: Isn't Xykon on our side?
Redcloak: How many sides are in this anyway?
Roach #1: I count at least 9.
Roach #2: Shhhh! Some of those haven't been introduced yet!

This exchange happens because Redcloak specifically points out that the Goblins having a differing agenda to Xykon makes them a different side, which is valid, but also opens the doorway to splitting up other sides into smaller fractions based on what the sides are. Keep in mind that the phrase "At least 9" points out the Roach was too lazy to even do a full count, just selecting 9 sides that exist off the top of it's head.

Allow me to demonstrate counting "at least" 9 sides with Redcloak's criteria:
1. Xykon and core team evil
2. Redcloak and goblinoid team evil (confirmed to be a separate side based on Redcloak's argument)
3. The Order of the Stick
4. Azure City (Had a conflict with the order, differing priorities after it's fall. It's an allied side but independent for sure)
5. The Linear Guild
6. Kubota's Insurgency (Completely independent albeit minor.)
7. The IFCC
8. The Vector Legion
9. Hel's Forces
10. The Gods in General
11. The Mechane's Crew (Has their own independent motivations, allied side)
And if we want to get pedantic, there's the Forest Bandits, the Thieves Guild, the Elven Allies, the Dwarven Council, the Rebels against the Empire of Blood...

My point is that the 9 sides comment was made in response to Redcloak pointing out that sides are vaguely defined and subjective. It was a meta joke but not a prophetic meta joke, saying that following Redcloak's criteria for defining a side could get out of hand quickly.

If anything, the comment that came closest to foreshadowing was "Shhh. They don't know about some of those yet!" which at least tells us that Rich wasn't done introducing all the factions at the time. Tarquin was kind of introduced in Nale's flashback, but Hel was in fact a brand new, never before seen faction. So that comment could legitimately have ran it's course too.

My point is, for all we know the Mysterious Figures could be an existing side and the quota was met ages ago. This topic isn't a serious sticking point or a lingering plot arc. You could sell me harder on crack theories about what Roy's Archon is doing than use this to prove that we have yet to be introduced factions remaining. No serious, what was their plan?

[Goblin_Priest]

Is theorizing about the sides pointless? Sure. But being pedantic can be fun, so... there's that.

[Saint-Just]

I almost agree. I think it is likely that the Giant had an actual number of the planned sides in his head while writing that, but it's also true that definitions are fuzzy, so we cannot just note "Vector Legion has been dealt with (narrative-wise) now there are only eight to consider". I am willing to bet 20100 quataloos that there wouldn't be an ultimate showdown of ultimate destiny with nine (recognizable, at least semi-independent if not independent) sides in the last book.

[Morty]

I do feel like it might have been largely an illustration of how the "team Evil" is a tenuous alliance at best and that characters' allegiances can and will shift.

[137beth]

I do feel like it might have been largely an illustration of how the "team Evil" is a tenuous alliance at best and that characters' allegiances can and will shift.

Yep. The only person truly on Xykon's "side" is Xykon himself. Tsukiko had her own agenda that included romance with Xykon (something Xykon didn't want at all), Redcloak has his own agenda, and the MitD's interests don't line up with the others.

[Cicciograna]

Well, there are also the invisible creatures that hauled O'Chul and Lien, and we don't really know if they are an independent faction or if they belong to somebody else, so there's that. We don't even really know if Serini is still alive, and if she was able to build Kraagor's Tomb, she is potentially a world-changing player. Plus, at this point I think that the Snarl and the planet in the rift could be considered a side in its own way.
Incidentally, personally I bar away Kubota's Insurgency (not really that relevant), the Mechane Crew (same as above) and the Linear Guild (dead with their leader), and frankly even Hel has been pretty much neutralized.
Of course, let's not forget about the REAL mastermind of the world, Trigak.

[Synesthesy]

1) The Order and anyone who is trying to stop Team Evil to conquer the Gate and the Gods to destroy the world
2) Xykon and who is helping him conquering the Gate and the World
3) Redcloak, the Dark One, Jirix and everyone is trying to give goblinoids better conditions through the Plan
4) IFCC and their own secret plan
5) Hel and who is trying to end the world, better if before the battle for the last Gate happen
6) Vector Legion for their own masterplan of conquest
7) Thor, Loki and the Gods that want to try to stop the Snarl forever with the help of the Dark One
8) Sabine, who wants revenge over Tarquin; formerly the Linear Guild, who wanted to conquer the Gate for Nale and getting some pitty revenge during this
9) O-Chul and the paladins who want peace for everyone; MitD may or may not be part of this side.

[Dion]

The Order is NOT a side! They don’t have the same goals at all.

What Roy wants is different than what Durkon wants. What Haley and Elan want is different than what Belkar wants.

They’re a team, and they’re working together, but it’s a little odd to say they’re on the same “side”.

[Sir_Norbert]

They're on the same side of this particular conflict.

But yes, I agree with the overall view of this thread. The "nine sides" comment did not mean that nine sides would be present at the final battle, and indeed some of the sides who were in the conflict at that time have since dropped out (the Linear Guild, Tarquin, Hel). It just meant that at that point, there were factions still to be introduced, which has already come true. So it doesn't give us any helpful information looking forward, and we will never have a precise list of which nine the roach was thinking of.

[elros]

I think the Giant picked the number nine because "nine sides" sounds funnier than ten sides...

[KorvinStarmast]

The Order is NOT a side! Yes, they are. You don't have to be a perfect team to be the A side or the B side: you just have to be a team with a mission. The OoTS mission statement is save the world. That mission has been clearly stated that side's leader - Roy Greenhilt.

I think the Giant picked the number nine because "nine sides" sounds funnier than ten sides... Then why am I not laughing? :smallconfused:

[InvisibleBison]

1) The Order and anyone who is trying to stop Team Evil to conquer the Gate and the Gods to destroy the world
2) Xykon and who is helping him conquering the Gate and the World
3) Redcloak, the Dark One, Jirix and everyone is trying to give goblinoids better conditions through the Plan
4) IFCC and their own secret plan
5) Hel and who is trying to end the world, better if before the battle for the last Gate happen
6) Vector Legion for their own masterplan of conquest
7) Thor, Loki and the Gods that want to try to stop the Snarl forever with the help of the Dark One
8) Sabine, who wants revenge over Tarquin; formerly the Linear Guild, who wanted to conquer the Gate for Nale and getting some pitty revenge during this
9) O-Chul and the paladins who want peace for everyone; MitD may or may not be part of this side.

Neither Hel nor the Vector Legion can be among the nine sides, as they weren't involved in the conflict over the Gates at the time of comic #548.

[KorvinStarmast]

Neither Hel nor the Vector Legion can be among the nine sides, as they weren't involved in the conflict over the Gates at the time of comic #548. That position seems to conflict with what the roaches were saying.
(a) at least 9 sides (which menas possibly more)
and
(b) not yet introduced to the readers. (See panel 8)
That leaves Hel and the Vector Legion as sides 'they {that is us, the readers} don't know about yet'

[InvisibleBison]

That position seems to conflict with what the roaches were saying.
(a) at least 9 sides (which menas possibly more)
and
(b) not yet introduced to the readers. (See panel 8)
That leaves Hel and the Vector Legion as sides 'they {that is us, the readers} don't know about yet'


Redcloak: How many sides are there in this conflict, anyway? Three? Four? More?
Demon Roach: I count at least nine.

Redcloak is speaking in the present tense, referring to sides that were currently involved in the conflict. The demon roach's remark, being a follow-up to Redcloak's, was also speaking only about sides that were currently involved. At the time of that remark, the Vector Legion did not know that the Gates existed, and Hel had neither any ability to participate in the conflict nor any expectation of gainin any such ability. Thus, they cannot be reasonably said to be among the nine sides involved in the conflict at that time. The fact that they would both later join into the conflict is irrelevant.

[KorvinStarmast]

Redcloak is speaking in the present tense, referring to sides that were currently involved in the conflict. The demon roach's remark, being a follow-up to Redcloak's, was also speaking only about sides that were currently involved. At the time of that remark, the Vector Legion did not know that the Gates existed, and Hel had neither any ability to participate in the conflict nor any expectation of gainin any such ability. Thus, they cannot be reasonably said to be among the nine sides involved in the conflict at that time. The fact that they would both later join into the conflict is irrelevant. Ya know, maybe you ought to consider that the response of both roaches are how that question is being answered in that panel of the strip.
I find your absolutist tone to be at odds with what was in the strip.
Thanks for explaining that, I won't waste any further time of yours or mine.

[WanderingMist]

I think the Giant picked the number nine because "nine sides" sounds funnier than ten sides...

Something along the lines of "'Nine pieces of eight' sounds better than 'Nine pieces of whatever we happened to have in our pockets at the time'" -Jack Sparrow?

[Werbaer]

Something along the lines of "'Nine pieces of eight' sounds better than 'Nine pieces of whatever we happened to have in our pockets at the time'" -Jack Sparrow?
Pieces of eight (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pieces_of_eight) is a currency that was widely used in the past.

[KorvinStarmast]

Pieces of eight (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pieces_of_eight) is a currency that was widely used in the past. It was also an album (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pieces_of_Eight) by the Chicago based band Styx.
(The one time I saw them, they were doing the tour to promote that album)

[Ajustusdaniel]

Why, Super Zombie Werewolf Vampire Trigak alone could represent up to three sides.

[CawCawMarmalade]

yeah, the nine-sides-argument is moot, since the definition of "side" is arbitrary and very fuzzy. But it can be fun to split hairs like that. For example, I can make out at least nine sides within team evil itself:

1) Xykon - as mentioned previously, he is a side himself
2) Redcloak - while he says he is on the side of goblinhood and his god, he has demonstrated that claim to be questionable
3) MitD - not actually evil or interested in the others' goals
4) Tsukiko - own agenda including romancing Xykon
5) Gobbotopia as ruled by Jirix - seperated when Redcloak stepped down. Has slightly different priorities.
6) The Dark One - while nominally he is on the same side as Redcloak and/or Gobbotopia, his lack of communication makes this uncertain
7) Oona and the Bugbears - mostly concerned with the safety and survival of their own community
8) The previous Supreme Leader - should he still be alive, he might still have influence within Gobbotopia
9) Cliffport and the other 18 states that support the state-hood of Gobbotopia - very tenous allies that likely don't know about/support Team Evil's goals but might oppose the Azurites' claim to the city

[ti'esar]

I've been convinced forever that Rich picked the number nine entirely from the alignment system. Not to say that there's any correspondence beyond that, just that I agree the gist of that scene is simply "there are a LOT of different factions here, not just the good guys and bad guys", and that it seems like a more likely source for that particular number than an actual list he's drawn up.

[Goblin_Priest]

I've been convinced forever that Rich picked the number nine entirely from the alignment system. Not to say that there's any correspondence beyond that, just that I agree the gist of that scene is simply "there are a LOT of different factions here, not just the good guys and bad guys", and that it seems like a more likely source for that particular number than an actual list he's drawn up.

By saying "at least 9", it both hints at the possibility of the alignment system, without ruling out anything else, so it was a good number to pick to inspire pedantic theorycrafting.