how to abuse ignore material components

[newguydude1]

well technically tainted sorcerers blood component, but theyre the same.

all i got is true resurrection, stoneskin, and suffer the flesh. i cant for the life of me find another spell i can abuse.

extract gift has a xp component
energy transformation field has a xp component
hallow and unhallow, cant see how its abusable without dm leniency on what spell effects are allowed.
animate dead, well theres lots of ways to get that for free and animate dead becomes worthless right quick.
forcecage aint that good. 7th level spell, anyone worth a damn has teleport.
simulacrum has an xp component.

fabricate, dm ruled specific trumps general. fabricate targets your material component, doesnt annihilate it, so the material component is unignorable unless you somehow eliminate the target entry as well.

and thats all i got.

edit:
true resurrection
stoneskin
suffer the flesh
true seeing
forbiddance
mystic shield
starmantle
create magic tattoo
antimagic ray

[sreservoir]

True Seeing becomes something you can cast whenever you want, maybe persist every day.

Hallow and Forbiddance are fun because once you get rid of the material costs you can blanket the world in them and ruin mind control/teleportation for everyone :D

The weapon/armor/natural weapon augmentation spells (if you can finagle them off the artificer list) have some ... normally negligible but tedious to track components that it'd be cool to ignore.

Clothier's Closet (MoE 94) doesn't sound very impressive, but since it keys off price you can get 500 lb of traveler's outfits permanently out of a 2nd-level slot.

Wizard's spellshards (ECS 122) function as spellbooks and normally cost about the same to copy spells into, but that process is specified as a use of arcane mark with a material component, so you should be substitute that and copy spells for cheap.

[daremetoidareyo]

Snowcasting feat requires a handful of snow, which is free, and it adds the cold descriptor to stuff.

Pair with primitive caster, which adds a material component (a frostfell herb requiring a herbalism check) to a spell for +1CL.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

fabricate, dm ruled specific trumps general. fabricate targets your material component, doesnt annihilate it, so the material component is unignorable unless you somehow eliminate the target entry as well.Your DM is houseruling. Fabricate uses the material as a material component, then apparently recreates the material whole-cloth after it's destroyed. Using the tainted sorcerer ability allows you to create stuff using fabricate without needing the component. Note that fabricate does mention being able to create material (specifically, that creatures and magic items can't be created via the spell, indicating that it can create other items; plus, the material component entry indicate such, as well.).

Ice assassin allows you to create clones without needing parts of the original.

Teleport through time (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b) usually requires a very hard to get material component, but...

[Kalkra]

Note that fabricate does mention being able to create material (specifically, that creatures and magic items can't be created via the spell, indicating that it can create other items; plus, the material component entry indicate such, as well.).

Not that I disagree with your ruling of Fabricate, but I don't think that particular line indicates anything. It could be referring to making a creature out of other creatures, or a magic item out of the raw materials for a magic item. Also, if you're trying to get indications from the text of the spell, then you run into all the stuff indicating otherwise.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Not that I disagree with your ruling of Fabricate, but I don't think that particular line indicates anything. It could be referring to making a creature out of other creatures, or a magic item out of the raw materials for a magic item. Also, if you're trying to get indications from the text of the spell, then you run into all the stuff indicating otherwise.It's a poorly conceived and poorly written spell, by pretty much any measure, when you stop to consider RAW vs probable RAI. The psionic version is much better, because it actually targets the materials without using them as material components (and thus destroying them).

[Anthrowhale]

Mystic Shield is pretty good. Create Magic Tattoo is nice. W.r.t. Forcecage, I believe the standard advice is to pair with Dimensional Lock. You can do 2 spells/round with Arcane Spellsurge and a metamagic. Starmantle is pretty good. Antimagic Ray can end some encounters.

[newguydude1]

The weapon/armor/natural weapon augmentation spells (if you can finagle them off the artificer list) have some ... normally negligible but tedious to track components that it'd be cool to ignore.

theres literally 0 ways to get infusions on a wizard spell list because infusions are not spells. cant get over this raw.


Your DM is houseruling. Fabricate uses the material as a material component, then apparently recreates the material whole-cloth after it's destroyed. Using the tainted sorcerer ability allows you to create stuff using fabricate without needing the component. Note that fabricate does mention being able to create material (specifically, that creatures and magic items can't be created via the spell, indicating that it can create other items; plus, the material component entry indicate such, as well.).

spell says convert material not transmute. and you still gotta target something and you can only target material component.


Ice assassin allows you to create clones without needing parts of the original.

has an xp cost, a hefty one at that too.

Teleport through time (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b) usually requires a very hard to get material component, but...[/QUOTE]

interesting. hefty xp cost too but i think this spell is different from ice assassin cause like you said the material component is hard to obtain.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

spell says convert material not transmute. and you still gotta target something and you can only target material component.Then the spell is useless for its intended purpose, because you destroy any materials you target.

I mean, it's useful for destroying nonmagical, nonliving substances, but there's no "transmuting" involved once you've destroyed what you're targeting.

It's like if polymorph vaporized the target as a material component before the rest of it takes effect. Once the target is vaporized, the rest of it is a moot point.

[Pinkie Pyro]

fabricate, dm ruled specific trumps general. fabricate targets your material component, doesnt annihilate it, so the material component is unignorable unless you somehow eliminate the target entry as well.


Wouldn't that mean that you'd be able to effectively duplicate the materials? you have to have them, but since it doesn't expend the material component, you should keep the materials and get the fabricated object.

although really innate spell + fabricate is the breaking point. change it to a focus, start with 1 GP worth of whatever, keep casting until you have infinite money.

[newguydude1]

Then the spell is useless for its intended purpose, because you destroy any materials you target..

he says you dont annihilate the material component because you convert the material component from one material to a product of the same material. cant convert if you annihilate it. by definition annihilated things dont exist anymore.


Wouldn't that mean that you'd be able to effectively duplicate the materials? you have to have them, but since it doesn't expend the material component, you should keep the materials and get the fabricated object.

the material component is the target and is converted into a product. your not creating matter at all. the spell still has to obey the conservation of mass.

[GrayDeath]

That interpetation runs against both the spells name, intended purpose and what is was/is used for in every single group I have ever seen it used.
Which given D&D`s general inconsistency depending on groups of various flavours of RAW to RAI is saying something.

Are you sure your DM is not targetting your plans specifically? Because all "RAW or nothing" DM`s I ahve ever met or talked to tended to rule as precise and noncontroversal as possible, and this ruling is anything but noncontroversal.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

he says you dont annihilate the material component because you convert the material component from one material to a product of the same material. cant convert if you annihilate it. by definition annihilated things dont exist anymore.As I said, it's very poorly written. It's literally useless the way it is, unless you want to destroy the target of the spell, since it's destroyed as all material components are.

If your DM is "RAW or die," then fabricate is useless:


Material (M)
A material component is one or more physical substances or objects that are annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process. Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible. Don’t bother to keep track of material components with negligible cost. Assume you have all you need as long as you have your spell component pouch.

[newguydude1]

As I said, it's very poorly written. It's literally useless the way it is, unless you want to destroy the target of the spell, since it's destroyed as all material components are.

If your DM is "RAW or die," then fabricate is useless:

specific trumps general. so when fabricate converts materials into a product of another, it doesnt annihilate the materials, because specific trumps general, because conversion and annihilation cannot coexist.


That interpetation runs against both the spells name, intended purpose and what is was/is used for in every single group I have ever seen it used.
Which given D&D`s general inconsistency depending on groups of various flavours of RAW to RAI is saying something.

Are you sure your DM is not targetting your plans specifically? Because all "RAW or nothing" DM`s I ahve ever met or talked to tended to rule as precise and noncontroversal as possible, and this ruling is anything but noncontroversal.

i dont understand whats controversial about it.
fabricate turns wood into a chair
my dm says the rules say that you target a piece of wood that costs as much as 1/3rd of the chair and has as much mass as the chair.
ignoring the material components doesnt change the fact you need to target something with the spell, so specific trumps general meaning unless you can get rid of the target entry as well you cant ignore the material components of the spell, because you absolutely must target something. and the only valid target is the material component.

you guys are saying the piece of wood is annihlated and then you create a chair out of nothing, and if you ignore material components you ignore the target entry of the spell so you create the chair out of nothing without annihilating or targeting anything.

i think my dms interpretation is raw and makes sense. especially since its consistent with psions using fabricate power and creatures with fabricate slas.

[GrayDeath]

No.

We are actually saying that its NOT destroyed, but used up as any other Spell component with any other spell.

And ont "specific trumps general" me, I have played Magic long enough. You cant argue like that in a game as badly edited, differently played and (especially with the prebuilds showing the very...lacking understanding of many an author) Game.

its never that clear cut.

Point is, if he rules it that way, the spell literally makes no sense, as Max wrote above.

Aside from the fact that D&D has a LOT of very poorly written stuff, so not applying ANY Intention/not thinking about what the spell/ability was intended to do, will result in a lot of disfunctional stuff.
For some inspiration, check the Dysfunctionality threads.^^

[newguydude1]

And ont "specific trumps general" me, I have played Magic long enough. You cant argue like that in a game as badly edited, differently played and (especially with the prebuilds showing the very...lacking understanding of many an author) Game.

im not understanding what you are saying. could you perhaps walk me through one casting of fabricate?

afaik there are 3 interpretations.
1. fabricate requires you to annihilate material costing 1/3rd in addition to the target material. so if you want to craft a wooden chair, you need to target wood that costs 1/3rd of the chair (because crafting rules), and annihilate wood that costs 1/3rd of the chair (because material component), for a grand total 2/3rd of the chair costs. so in other words, it removes the time component of crafting items in exchange for doubling the raw material cost.
2. my dms interpretation. target and material component is one and the same. so you only need wood that costs 1/3rd of the chair, nothing is annihilated. but because you need to target something with the spell, and because the only valid target is the material component, you cannot ignore the material component even as an sla or psionic power.
3. max's interpretation. if you ignore the material component, you can ignore the target entry as well, and create anything out of nothing.

could you walk me through how you think the spell works?

[Saint-Just]

I can see how having the same thing as the material component and the target is contradictory, but if you go for RAI then the simplest way to do would be to ignore the material component, therefore rendering that spell not subject to blood component shenanigans.

If RAW reading results in a useless spell (I am not convinced, but let's grant it for purposes of this post) how exactly would you re-formulate the spell to be compatible with blood component?

Or you think it should be incompatible, but for other reasons than those of the OP's DM?

[GrayDeath]

I think the Spell should almost always work as follows (attention, RAI not RAW, as its badly written):

You have a material component.
You want to create a Lazy Boy Chair.
You cast and maybe roll a skil check, to transmute that into more material in the form you intend. Nice chair.
Done.

If you use something that replaces a material Component (not removes using Components at all, replaces, like your Tainted Sorcerer for example, as after all the stuff you use for fabricate is either a LOT or expensive, often both) it retains its functionality just as mentioned above.
Because, you know, magic.

The only point where I see your DM`s interpreatation make more sense than mine is if you either have a completely "all things magic does must make snese in the World"/Simulationist Game (which cannot be done with RAW or DIE!!"^^) or if you intend toi make something very very specific, ergo of a material that should not be replacable by "regular" Component Replacements.

But then again, given the title of this thread, maybe he reads here and denied it because of your many threads asking how to one up certain situations? Who knows...

Again, I am not saying the Interpretation is wrong per se, I am saying it will not work with the way you described your DM`s game, as RAW almost always totally ignores logic, consistency and intent, ya know? ^^

I hope that was clearar.

[sreservoir]

Evidence from the spell list (Fabricate is not marked M to indicate a component that "is not normally included in a spell component pouch") and the scroll treasure tables (standard fabricate scrolls don't have built-in material components) pretty strongly suggest that Fabricate's M component is an editing error. As a funny side note, 3e's version had the material component stated as "The original material." (without the "which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created"), so at some point somebody apparently doubled down on the mistake.

This is not really a RAW argument, since the rules give no special meaning to treasure tables or to spells not marked as having a component in the list. But 2 is really the interpretation that comes closest to what I'd consider sensible.

As an aside, the spell component pouch description and the text about the spell list annotations disagree with each each other on what components are included/excluded:

A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn’t fit in a pouch (such as the natural pool that a druid needs to look into to cast scrying).

An M or F appearing at the end of a spell’s name in the spell lists denotes a spell with a material or focus component, respectively, that is not normally included in a spell component pouch.
There isn't any particular guidance as to how to resolve the discrepancy and you can kind of argue either way (the spell component pouch description is the primary source for what's included in a spell component pouch, vs. the spell list annotations indicates specific exceptions to what's generally included in a spell component pouch).

[Melcar]

well technically tainted sorcerers blood component, but theyre the same.

all i got is true resurrection, stoneskin, and suffer the flesh. i cant for the life of me find another spell i can abuse.

extract gift has a xp component
energy transformation field has a xp component
hallow and unhallow, cant see how its abusable without dm leniency on what spell effects are allowed.
animate dead, well theres lots of ways to get that for free and animate dead becomes worthless right quick.
forcecage aint that good. 7th level spell, anyone worth a damn has teleport.
simulacrum has an xp component.

fabricate, dm ruled specific trumps general. fabricate targets your material component, doesnt annihilate it, so the material component is unignorable unless you somehow eliminate the target entry as well.

and thats all i got.

edit:
true resurrection
stoneskin
suffer the flesh
true seeing
forbiddance
mystic shield
starmantle
create magic tattoo
antimagic ray

You use it to cast Fabricate, producing platinum for unlimited wealth!

EDIT: I didn't read all the entries before commenting, but I would argue that fabricate uses material components normally, and thus having ignore material component simple mean you don't need the material you're converting, just like any other spell... I would find it very odd, that fabricate would be the only spell that treated a material component during casting differently. However, if the rules say that you don't need to have a material component, and what ever material is converted is the material component, and you have a specific feat that says you no longer need that, then that feat is made void by a DM ruling that fabricate somehow is different to every other spell, and that the specific feat you have taken is not working the way it should.

Fabricate is a spell like any other, it has a material component. You have a feat that says you don't need a material component; ergo you don't! And you can thus use fabricate to create stuff out of thin air! If the argument is that specific trumps general, then you having ignore material component is the specific that makes fabricate work as I've described! Tell your DM he's wrong!

What the feat does is allowing you to ignore everything that under the line "Material Component", since fabricate says uses material component:
"The original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created. " and ignore material component feat means you ignore this, you can indeed create things out of nothing with fabricate. Its not even a discussion!

[Biggus]

There's a list here: https://www.enworld.org/threads/spell-list-with-expensive-materials.43348/

Edit: just noticed that list is from back in 3.0 days. Looking at it though, I think most of them are the same in 3.5.

Some others not on that list:

SpC
Astral Hospice
Aura of Evasion
Barghest's Feast
Death Pact
Favorable Sacrifice
Hindsight
Nightstalker's Transformation
Plague of Undead
Programmed Amnesia
Revive Outsider
Revive Undead
Revivify
(Greater) Sign of Sealing
Skeletal Guard
Summon Elemental Monolith

PlH
Precipitate Breach

LoM
Invoke Magic

CoR
Remorseless Charm

FB
Crack Ice
Ice Ship

HoB
Animate Legion
Desecrate Battlefield

SS
Desert Binding
Symbol of Thirst

UE
Bladebane

ECS
Create (Greater) Deathless
Suppress Requirement
(Greater) Weapon Augmentation

BoED
Amber Sarcophagus
Crown of Brilliance
Diamond Spray
Emerald Burst
Tomb of Light
Warding Gems

BoVD
Apocalypse from the Sky (1)
Evil Rain (1)
Soul's Treasure Lost

(1) has other components, but as the material components are very valuable, I thought it was still worth mentioning

[Saint-Just]

Fabricate is a spell like any other, it has a material component. You have a feat that says you don't need a material component; ergo you don't! And you can thus use fabricate to create stuff out of thin air! If the argument is that specific trumps general, then you having ignore material component is the specific that makes fabricate work as I've described! Tell your DM he's wrong!

What the feat does is allowing you to ignore everything that under the line "Material Component", since fabricate says uses material component: and ignore material component feat means you ignore this, you can indeed create things out of nothing with fabricate. Its not even a discussion!

Strict RAW argument: It also has a target. Strike down (delete, erase, whatever) the "material component" entry (because you can ignore material components) and read the spell without it. What are you targeting?

Also you should have noted that the whole discussion was about tainted sorcerer's "blood component". The feat Eschew Materials only allows you to ignore components costing less than 1 GP, so even if fabricate was working like you describe it's would not be of much interest, because you can only produce a tiny bit of valuables per casting.

[Melcar]

Strict RAW argument: It also has a target. Strike down (delete, erase, whatever) the "material component" entry (because you can ignore material components) and read the spell without it. What are you targeting?

Also you should have noted that the whole discussion was about tainted sorcerer's "blood component". The feat Eschew Materials only allows you to ignore components costing less than 1 GP, so even if fabricate was working like you describe it's would not be of much interest, because you can only produce a tiny bit of valuables per casting.

Are we not talking about the epic feat ignore material component? I thought so since the tin said “abusing ignore material component”...

Btw Fabricate IS working like I describe it!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The warding gems spell (BoED) requires 500 gp gems as material components as well as the gems imbued with healing power (which are likewise destroyed when the healing power is used). Ignore Material Components won't do anything about the imbued gems, but it'll save you 500 gp per casting of the spell.

[Darg]

Fabricate targets material. Fabricate converts material targeted into created product. The material cost is the material to be converted as it says "original material."

Psionic fabricate says, "As the fabricate spell, except as noted here." Which means it has the same component cost because it doesn't say it doesn't. Specific trumps any PLA general rule one may mistakenly believe applies to non-PLA powers.

Fabricate annihilates material component, converting it into the the new product. Nothing says that the annihilation happens prior to the point of casting which is still part of the casting process. The spell is instantaneous. A plank of wood turned into a wooden figurine by a craftsman is no longer a plank of wood. The plank of wood was annihilated; it no longer exists. Fabricate works the same way. The moment the spell is cast, the material is converted into a product and thereby annihilating the the original material.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Psionic fabricate says, "As the fabricate spell, except as noted here." Which means it has the same component cost because it doesn't say it doesn't. Specific trumps any PLA general rule one may mistakenly believe applies to non-PLA powers.Psionic fabricate doesn't have a material component because psionic powers don't have material components.

[newguydude1]

Fabricate targets material. Fabricate converts material targeted into created product. The material cost is the material to be converted as it says "original material."

Psionic fabricate says, "As the fabricate spell, except as noted here." Which means it has the same component cost because it doesn't say it doesn't. Specific trumps any PLA general rule one may mistakenly believe applies to non-PLA powers.

Fabricate annihilates material component, converting it into the the new product. Nothing says that the annihilation happens prior to the point of casting which is still part of the casting process. The spell is instantaneous. A plank of wood turned into a wooden figurine by a craftsman is no longer a plank of wood. The plank of wood was annihilated; it no longer exists. Fabricate works the same way. The moment the spell is cast, the material is converted into a product and thereby annihilating the the original material.

your definition of annihilate is very different from the english language
your logic fails against creatures who have fabricate as an sla.

[Darg]

Psionic fabricate doesn't have a material component because psionic powers don't have material components.

Except I quoted where it does. Specific trumps general rule. Show me what in the rules trumps the power description itself? Nothing says psionic powers don't have material components. If you insist psionic powers are PLAs, I would remind you that, "a psionic creature does not have to pay a psi-like ability’s power point cost," would be on the same level as trumping a material cost by the "specific trumps general" rule.


your definition of annihilate is very different from the english language
your logic fails against creatures who have fabricate as an sla.

Actually it depends on what is being discussed. Conceptual annihilation is just as much reality as objective annihilation. As the PHB does not clarify either one, both are just as valid and equal in D&D as a conceptual game. In either case, neither could ever be considered to exist anymore.

Even if it is a SLA, the spell still converts an existing targeted material into a different product.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Except I quoted where it does. Specific trumps general rule. Show me what in the rules trumps the power description itself? Nothing says psionic powers don't have material components. If you insist psionic powers are PLAs, I would remind you that, "a psionic creature does not have to pay a psi-like ability’s power point cost," would be on the same level as trumping a material cost by the "specific trumps general" rule.Psionic powers do not use material components, just like they don't have verbal or somatic ones. Nothing about psionic fabricate says that it ignores this rule, and (M) components are not listed in the power description. The materials to be transmuted are targeted by the power, not vaporized in the manifestation of the power.

[Darg]

Psionic powers do not use material components, just like they don't have verbal or somatic ones.

Nothing says they can't have components.



Nothing about psionic fabricate says that it ignores this rule, and (M) components are not listed in the power description. The materials to be transmuted are targeted by the power, not vaporized in the manifestation of the power.

It says as the spell except as mentioned in the power entry. The spell has a material component. Material components are not specifically called out as being not required unlike verbal or somatic components. Therefore, if a power references a spell with a material component it must have a material component as that would be "as the spell." Unless that is, you can find me an entry that says things that function like another thing can ignore anything it deems inconvenient.

[Silent Alarm]

Except I quoted where it does. Specific trumps general rule. Show me what in the rules trumps the power description itself? Nothing says psionic powers don't have material components.



Fabricate, Psionic (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/fabricatePsionic.htm)
Metacreativity (Creation)
Level: Shaper 4
Display: Material
Manifesting Time: See spell text
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: Up to 10 cu. ft./level; see spell text
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Power Resistance: No
Power Points: 7

As the fabricate spell, except as noted here.


You are perhaps referring to how the power, Psionic Fabricate, has a display component of "Material", which has a completely different meaning in the context of psionics.

Material Display Component (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#material)

The subject or the area is briefly slicked with a translucent, shimmering substance. The glistening substance evaporates after 1 round regardless of the power’s duration. Sophisticated psions recognize the material as ectoplasmic seepage from the Astral Plane; this substance is completely inert.
So no, you do not need a material component for Psionic Fabricate because a material component is not included in the Display line. You are free to house rule otherwise, but do not interject your house rule as RAW.

[Saint-Just]

So no, you do not need a material component for Psionic Fabricate because a material component is not included in the Display line. You are free to house rule otherwise, but do not interject your house rule as RAW.

Lack of material component is obvious but it has been interpreted in two ways in this thread: the power affects up to 10cf/lvl of raw material, for example because the spell states "You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material" (my opinion), or it's just produces a thing out of nothing but your PP.

[Silent Alarm]

Lack of material component is obvious but it has been interpreted in two ways in this thread: the power affects up to 10cf/lvl of raw material, for example because the spell states "You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material" (my opinion), or it's just produces a thing out of nothing but your PP.
Interpretation is not RAW so I really can't careless about what you or anyone else for that matter interprets the rules as (at least in this regard; This is a RAW discussion after). As written, you do not need any materials present besides up to 10 cubic feet per level of material to turn into the desired finished product. The material must be of the same as the type being converted (stone to stone, ice to ice, etc), but beyond that nothing else is necessary. Under no circumstance do you, using Fabricate (psionic or otherwise), not just poof the material into existence. It is not consumed in the same way as a material component for a spell is (annihilated; An undefined game term so ultimately meaningless). Pathfinder however provides a significantly better wording for how material components are used in the form of "expended", borrowing similar wording for spells. All in all, very good.

Ultimately, however

The spell is broken.
The component rules are poorly defined at best.

[Darg]

You are perhaps referring to how the power, Psionic Fabricate, has a display component of "Material", which has a completely different meaning in the context of psionics.

Material Display Component (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#material)

So no, you do not need a material component for Psionic Fabricate because a material component is not included in the Display line. You are free to house rule otherwise, but do not interject your house rule as RAW.

What? No. Read the description. It literally says:


As the fabricate spell, except as noted here.

If you read what I wrote you would understand:


Nothing says they can't have components.

It says as the spell except as mentioned in the power entry. The spell has a material component. Material components are not specifically called out as being not required unlike verbal or somatic components. Therefore, if a power references a spell with a material component it must have a material component as that would be "as the spell." Unless that is, you can find me an entry that says things that function like another thing can ignore anything it deems inconvenient.

Just saying it doesn't have components does nothing to change the fact it does. Look at Glyph of Warding, Greater (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glyphOfWardingGreater.htm). It doesn't have the verbal or somatic components listed nor any of the other property entries. Would you say that this spell doesn't inherit the properties of the Glyph of Warding spell because it doesn't have the entries for them? No right? It's the same thing with Psionic Fabricate. This power inherits the material component because nothing says it doesn't.

[Silent Alarm]

Just saying it doesn't have components does nothing to change the fact it does. Look at Glyph of Warding, Greater (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glyphOfWardingGreater.htm). It doesn't have the verbal or somatic components listed nor any of the other property entries. Would you say that this spell doesn't inherit the properties of the Glyph of Warding spell because it doesn't have the entries for them? No right? It's the same thing with Psionic Fabricate. This power inherits the material component because nothing says it doesn't.

No, I would say that as a spell it duplicates the applicable properties of the referenced spell (Verbal, Somatic, but not Material Components as the spell clearly lays them out). I would not say that Psionic Plane Shift has a Verbal, Somatic, and Focus component, because those features are not apart of the anatomy of a Powers description (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#powerDescriptions). Therefore, I would not then go on to say, that as a result, a Psion manifesting Psionic Freedom of Movement, must then provide a Divine Focus, Material Component, have one hand free for Somatic Components, and be able to speak aloud the "words of power" for Verbal Components because these are not components of Psionic Powers, which seems to be the "logic" you are attempting to push as fact.

[redking]

It's worth pointing out that fabricate is a transmutation spell, not a conjuration. Transmutation turns one thing into another thing. Conjuration brings thing into existence out of thin air.

It stands to reason that if you want to produce a 1 kilo gold ingot using a fabricate spell, then you need 1 kilo of gold.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It's worth pointing out that fabricate is a transmutation spell, not a conjuration. Transmutation turns one thing into another thing. Conjuration brings thing into existence out of thin air.

It stands to reason that if you want to produce a 1 kilo gold ingot using a fabricate spell, then you need 1 kilo of gold.And you end up with nothing due to it vaporizing all of it.

[newguydude1]

this is the raw

material component is the "original material"
so by raw, target = material component.

the spell converts one material into another.
since convert and annihilation cannot coexist, by raw, specific trumps general and this spell does not annihilate its own material components.

finally, the material component is the only valid target of this spell.
therefore anything that ignores material components, be it sla or psionic power or supernatural spell, still has to target the spell's material component because it is the only valid target of the spell, and you have to target something. you cant target nothing.

therefore nothing can ignore the material component of fabricate, because thats the only valid target of the spell.

super simple. what is so hard to understand about this spell?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

this is the raw

material component is the "original material"
so by raw, target = material component.

the spell converts one material into another.
since convert and annihilation cannot coexist, by raw, specific trumps general and this spell does not annihilate its own material components.

finally, the material component is the only valid target of this spell.
therefore anything that ignores material components, be it sla or psionic power or supernatural spell, still has to target the spell's material component because it is the only valid target of the spell, and you have to target something. you cant target nothing.

therefore nothing can ignore the material component of fabricate, because thats the only valid target of the spell.

super simple. what is so hard to understand about this spell?If the spell doesn't annihilate the target then the target isn't the material component, because material components are, by definition, annihilated upon casting a spell.

This spell does not work by RAW.

[newguydude1]

If the spell doesn't annihilate the target then the target isn't the material component, because material components are, by definition, annihilated upon casting a spell.

This spell does not work by RAW.

i dont understand. specific gets to trump general. this spells spell description about conversion trumps the general rule about material components being annihilated. where is the raw violation here?

[Saint-Just]

i dont understand. specific gets to trump general. this spells spell description about conversion trumps the general rule about material components being annihilated. where is the raw violation here?

I want to say that I agree that by RAW you either have an absolutely useless spell (because you have nothing to target), or at least very close to useless (because you need to vaporize amount of material equal to the amount of material you are affecting). In the first case psionic fabricate is also useless in the second it works as intended (because psionics do not have or use material component).

I however do not agree that either of those positions allows for any shenanigans with blood component, ignore materials etc. Useless spell which targets nothing remains useless, spell which vaporizes components before transforming another bunch of the same material takes blood instead of the vaporized component but still requires an amount of resources to be transformed.

I do think that your DM's ruling is not RAW but it is also very sane. I am not sure if the distinction has ever been raised but this feels to me less like RAI and more like correcting an obvious misprint (weapons doing 1d43 damage or "Share Laser Form").

[MaxiDuRaritry]

i dont understand. specific gets to trump general. this spells spell description about conversion trumps the general rule about material components being annihilated. where is the raw violation here?Because material components are annihilated, so anything that isn't annihilated isn't a material component. A focus? Maybe. Only a target? That's probably what it should've been.

But if the material you target with the spell is the spell's material component, the component is vaporized in the casting of the spell, and the spell itself doesn't go out of its way to say it's not. So you end up with nothing at the end of it. Great for vaporizing the material you target. Not so great for actually getting altered material at the end.

If the spell's author(s) wanted fabricate to work as intended, they wouldn't have called out that the material you target is the material component, because that breaks the whole thing. And not in the way that shapechange or wish are broken, but in the "this does not work" way of being broken.

The only way to make it work is to houserule it at this point, since there's no errata'ing it (barring a revival of 3e).

The spell literally doesn't work as written. Saying "material components aren't annihilated when they're the target of the spell" is nonsensical, goes against established rules for every other spell in the game, and is not actually stated outright in fabricate itself. Houseruling it to actually function (by removing the target as a material component) would be fine, since that would make the spell functional, but do realize it's a houserule to cover for the devs' FUBAR here. If you want to leave in a material component, have it be a tiny sliver of the material to be fabricated or something, a small enough amount that it doesn't really affect the end result. It's not like most non-expensive material components actually matter 99.9% of the time, after all. They're literally a joke, and not a funny one.

[InvisibleBison]

i dont understand. specific gets to trump general. this spells spell description about conversion trumps the general rule about material components being annihilated. where is the raw violation here?

Specific trumps general doesn't apply to fabricate, because fabricate lacks a specific - it doesn't say that it doesn't annihilate its material component.

[Darg]

i dont understand. specific gets to trump general. this spells spell description about conversion trumps the general rule about material components being annihilated. where is the raw violation here?

They only have an argument. There isn't a violation as the annihilation of the material component isn't clearly defined and there are many ways that the annihilation of a material used in the production of a product does not actually remove the material from existence. One of the best ways to illustrate this is video games. In many games you craft products and the base materials are annihilated upon creation or possibly failure of your craft. The materials are gone even though they still exist as part of the product.

You target material as part of casting the spell. You annihilate the material and convert it into a product of the same material. Even if the material is completely annihilated in all ways, magic is magic. It's not impossible for the material to wink out of existence and appear as the finished product. It's not like converting a material into a product is a highly detailed process and can't be hand waved as "magic."

[Rijan_Sai]

You target material as part of casting the spell. You annihilate the material and convert it into a product of the same material. Even if the material is completely annihilated in all ways, magic is magic. It's not impossible for the material to wink out of existence and appear as the finished product. It's not like converting a material into a product is a highly detailed process and can't be hand waved as "magic."

By this same standard, though, there really is nothing wrong with a specific* feat (an [Epic] one, at that!) allowing the magic to work without the material.
I really don't see how you can, on one hand, say that bolded part above^ and then still hold that Super-High-Power-Magic-Stuff can't be used to explain why you no longer need the base materials...

*Notes callback to Specific Trumps General

[Darg]

By this same standard, though, there really is nothing wrong with a specific* feat (an [Epic] one, at that!) allowing the magic to work without the material.
I really don't see how you can, on one hand, say that bolded part above^ and then still hold that Super-High-Power-Magic-Stuff can't be used to explain why you no longer need the base materials...

*Notes callback to Specific Trumps General

No one says that the epic feat doesn't do what it says it does. That said, I don't think anyone would agree that removing the material entry for the spell removes the target line nor part of the description. In the case for fabricate, all it does it make it so that de/inflation won't change the amount of product made.

[Melcar]

No one says that the epic feat doesn't do what it says it does. That said, I don't think anyone would agree that removing the material entry for the spell removes the target line nor part of the description. In the case for fabricate, all it does it make it so that de/inflation won't change the amount of product made.

I would argue that! The way I see it - and how we rule it at our table - is simply, that without the need for material components, the spell creates matter out of thin air... if the target of this spell is the material component, and you don’t need a material component, you don’t need a target either! No component, no target! Its really the only way I can see the spell working as intended, while still allowing the full benefit of Ignore Material Component. The way the spell is formulated this is what makes the most sense to us... sure it means unlimited gold, but this really isn’t that game breaking at epic levels...

It’s not perfect but that’s how we’ve adopted it!

[Saint-Just]

I would argue that! The way I see it - and how we rule it at our table - is simply, that without the need for material components, the spell creates matter out of thin air... if the target of this spell is the material component, and you don’t need a material component, you don’t need a target either! No component, no target! Its really the only way I can see the spell working as intended, while still allowing the full benefit of Ignore Material Component. The way the spell is formulated this is what makes the most sense to us... sure it means unlimited gold, but this really isn’t that game breaking at epic levels...

It’s not perfect but that’s how we’ve adopted it!

This is definitely in the houserule territory. Imagine if you've never seen Fabricate, and in some splatbook you see a spell like that:


Make-a-Thingie
Transmutation
Level: Artifice 5, Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S
Casting time: See text
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: Up to 10 cu. ft./level; see text
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No


You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material. Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell. The quality of items made by this spell is commensurate with the quality of material used as the basis for the new fabrication. If you work with a mineral, the target is reduced to 1 cubic foot per level instead of 10 cubic feet.

You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship.

Casting requires 1 round per 10 cubic feet (or 1 cubic foot) of material to be affected by the spell.


Would you say that it allows you to conjure things out of thin air? Let's see: it's transmutation, not conjuration, Target entry says "see text" and in the text it says "convert material of one sort into a product", it also says target is reduced to 1 cu. ft. if you work with (not create a) mineral, so you presumably target minerals in some situations.

But Make-a-Thingie is exactly how Fabricate works with Ignore Material Component (and also blood component, once you have paid enough blood). It's not like Ignore Material Component allows you to target things which you are normally not supposed to target, it allows you to ignore material component and that's it. Why would you read a material component entry if you are supposed to ignore it? Ignore it. And once you ignore it try to justify creating things out of nothing with the text (not the bits you are supposed to ignore).

[Melcar]

This is definitely in the houserule territory. Imagine if you've never seen Fabricate, and in some splatbook you see a spell like that:


Make-a-Thingie
Transmutation
Level: Artifice 5, Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S
Casting time: See text
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: Up to 10 cu. ft./level; see text
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No


You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material. Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell. The quality of items made by this spell is commensurate with the quality of material used as the basis for the new fabrication. If you work with a mineral, the target is reduced to 1 cubic foot per level instead of 10 cubic feet.

You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship.

Casting requires 1 round per 10 cubic feet (or 1 cubic foot) of material to be affected by the spell.


Would you say that it allows you to conjure things out of thin air? Let's see: it's transmutation, not conjuration, Target entry says "see text" and in the text it says "convert material of one sort into a product", it also says target is reduced to 1 cu. ft. if you work with (not create a) mineral, so you presumably target minerals in some situations.

But Make-a-Thingie is exactly how Fabricate works with Ignore Material Component (and also blood component, once you have paid enough blood). It's not like Ignore Material Component allows you to target things which you are normally not supposed to target, it allows you to ignore material component and that's it. Why would you read a material component entry if you are supposed to ignore it? Ignore it. And once you ignore it try to justify creating things out of nothing with the text (not the bits you are supposed to ignore).

Well for me, its because the target is the material component. Ergo, if you don't provide the material component, you don't provide the target either... The way I understand it, and sorry if I'm repeating my self here, the spell is written in a way that precludes its actual use, without components. The target is the material component, no material component = no target. By RAW, the spell should not even work at this point, but since I think that's stupid, I posit that the spell works without a material component and thus also without a target... because magic! Its an epic feat after all!

That might not be strictly RAW, but IMO strictly RAW makes it impossible to cast the spell without components... because I think that an epic feat is the specific that trumps general in this case, my interpretation is the spell works, but without needing components and and subsequently also without target... but thats just how I run it. So far a deeper discussion of RAW is not productive, and when the playgrounds can't reach a consensus, my interpretation seems well within reason.

[newguydude1]

Ergo, if you don't provide the material component, you don't provide the target either... The way I understand it, and sorry if I'm repeating my self here, the spell is written in a way that precludes its actual use, without components. The target is the material component, no material component = no target. By RAW, the spell should not even work at this point, but since I think that's stupid, I posit that the spell works without a material component and thus also without a target... because magic! Its an epic feat after all!

then why does psionic fabricate have a target entry?


Specific trumps general doesn't apply to fabricate, because fabricate lacks a specific - it doesn't say that it doesn't annihilate its material component.

seriously? spell saying it converts material components is not enough of an explicit specfic instruction?



at this point i cant help but think every single person who opposes my dms view is someone who wants fabricate to be a true creation and is arguing to get what they want instead of objectively looking at the raw.

i mean saying "converts material components" doesn't override annihilation therefore the spell is dysfunctional because you claim that annihilation is not overridden, just... whatever. im sticking by my dms ruling.

[Saint-Just]

Well for me, its because the target is the material component. Ergo, if you don't provide the material component, you don't provide the target either... The way I understand it, and sorry if I'm repeating my self here, the spell is written in a way that precludes its actual use, without components. The target is the material component, no material component = no target. By RAW, the spell should not even work at this point, but since I think that's stupid, I posit that the spell works without a material component and thus also without a target... because magic! Its an epic feat after all!


I do think that original spell is very badly written, but if you delete the material component entry it starts to work reasonably well. Well, that exactly what you can do with ignore component or whatnot.

You straight up ignore my points about actual mechanics (spell must have a target, transmutation is not conjuration (creation), sometime you "work with a mineral" and you need to know when you do so). Instead you say "that's stupid, so the spell should work like that".

And once you admit it's not a strict RAW please follow that line of thought a little further. If it cannot work by RAW and DM doesn't intend to ban it (unlikely, there are probably a thousand spells more problematic), then wouldn't any sensible DM first provide a working version of Fabricate to their players and then apply effects of feats or class features to the version which is used in the game, not to a self-destructing RAW version?

ETA:
If RAW is self-destructive it goes in that order: you select a target which is also a material component->it is used up as a material component->you have nothing to transform. If you ignore the material component it becomes you select a target->spell goes off. Nowhere in the spell description (nor in the feat description, nor in a blood component description) it says that material component is your target. Target is always treated as a material component is not the same as material component is always treated as a target.



at this point i cant help but think every single person who opposes my dms view is someone who wants fabricate to be a true creation and is arguing to get what they want instead of objectively looking at the raw.

i mean saying "converts material components" doesn't override annihilation therefore the spell is dysfunctional because you claim that annihilation is not overridden, just... whatever. im sticking by my dms ruling.

Stay strong. I do think it is a ruling, not a strict RAW (though I have said it's a ruling in a case where RAW is entirely unsatisfactory like RAW 1d43 damage), but it is a good, simple, and sensible ruling

[Rijan_Sai]

You know... re-reading, I think I may have figured out the Fabricate (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm) issue:

The "Target" of the spell is [Material X](A), in an amount that is to be converted into ; the "Material Component" of the spell is [Material X](B), in an amount equal to 1/3 the cost of [Item Y].

These are separate.

The spell targets [MX](A), and converts it into [Item Y]; it uses [MX](B) as the component, annihilating (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/annihilate) it in the process.

[I]Ignore Material Components thus removes the extra cost of [MX](B), but would still require [MX](A). This should (hopefully) satisfy all parties, and bring it in line with the psionic version, as well. If not, well... I tried!

^If this is the way it is supposed to work, then I am happy with it, and will rule as such in any game in which it may be used. If, however, the "Target" and "Material Component" are supposed to be the same thing, then please refer to my previous post, as that is how I will proceed to rule. (<- For me specifically; you run your games as you see fit!)

Really though, how Fabricate looks to me to be used is as a time reducer for the Craft (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm) skill, taking it down from +/-X weeks to X rounds, with a (potentially) slightly higher cost in raw materials.

[newguydude1]

You know... re-reading, I think I may have figured out the Fabricate (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm) issue:

The "Target" of the spell is [Material X](A), in an amount that is to be converted into ; the "Material Component" of the spell is [Material X](B), in an amount equal to 1/3 the cost of [Item Y].

These are separate.

The spell targets [MX](A), and converts it into [Item Y]; it uses [MX](B) as the component, annihilating (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/annihilate) it in the process.

[I]Ignore Material Components thus removes the extra cost of [MX](B), but would still require [MX](A). This should (hopefully) satisfy all parties, and bring it in line with the psionic version, as well. If not, well... I tried!

^If this is the way it is supposed to work, then I am happy with it, and will rule as such in any game in which it may be used. If, however, the "Target" and "Material Component" are supposed to be the same thing, then please refer to my previous post, as that is how I will proceed to rule. (<- For me specifically; you run your games as you see fit!)

Really though, how Fabricate looks to me to be used is as a time reducer for the Craft (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm) skill, taking it down from +/-X weeks to X rounds, with a (potentially) slightly higher cost in raw materials.

material component is the original material. not same type as the original material.
both material component and target is mx(a)

[Saint-Just]

You know... re-reading, I think I may have figured out the Fabricate (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm) issue:

The "Target" of the spell is [Material X](A), in an amount that is to be converted into ; the "Material Component" of the spell is [Material X](B), in an amount equal to 1/3 the cost of [Item Y].

These are separate.

The spell targets [MX](A), and converts it into [Item Y]; it uses [MX](B) as the component, annihilating (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/annihilate) it in the process.

[I]Ignore Material Components thus removes the extra cost of [MX](B), but would still require [MX](A). This should (hopefully) satisfy all parties, and bring it in line with the psionic version, as well. If not, well... I tried!

^If this is the way it is supposed to work, then I am happy with it, and will rule as such in any game in which it may be used. If, however, the "Target" and "Material Component" are supposed to be the same thing, then please refer to my previous post, as that is how I will proceed to rule. (<- For me specifically; you run your games as you see fit!)

Really though, how Fabricate looks to me to be used is as a time reducer for the Craft (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm) skill, taking it down from +/-X weeks to X rounds, with a (potentially) slightly higher cost in raw materials.

It is a possible reading of a strictly-RAW version. It would be a PITA to use in a game, but it is a possible reading (I do not agree that "original material" can only refer to a particular clump of material instead of a type of material, so you need to disintegrate some wood to make a ladder from a leftover wood) if your DM insists on 100% RAW all the time.

About RAI let me add one more argument: all the rules about material components say that you must "manipulate" them, have them "in hand" (Grappling, Concentration) etc. If destruction of significant amount of raw materials was really an intention then giving the spell any range except touch would be practically pointless, and yet has close range.

[InvisibleBison]

seriously? spell saying it converts material components is not enough of an explicit specfic instruction?

The words on the page are what they are. Deducing things from the text is not the same as the text saying something. Nothing that isn't a quote from a rulebook is RAW.

[Remuko]

You know... re-reading, I think I may have figured out the Fabricate (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm) issue:

The "Target" of the spell is [Material X](A), in an amount that is to be converted into ; the "Material Component" of the spell is [Material X](B), in an amount equal to 1/3 the cost of [Item Y].

These are separate.

The spell targets [MX](A), and converts it into [Item Y]; it uses [MX](B) as the component, annihilating (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/annihilate) it in the process.

[I]Ignore Material Components thus removes the extra cost of [MX](B), but would still require [MX](A). This should (hopefully) satisfy all parties, and bring it in line with the psionic version, as well. If not, well... I tried!

^If this is the way it is supposed to work, then I am happy with it, and will rule as such in any game in which it may be used. If, however, the "Target" and "Material Component" are supposed to be the same thing, then please refer to my previous post, as that is how I will proceed to rule. (<- For me specifically; you run your games as you see fit!)

Really though, how Fabricate looks to me to be used is as a time reducer for the Craft (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm) skill, taking it down from +/-X weeks to X rounds, with a (potentially) slightly higher cost in raw materials.

this is the only reasonable non-dysfunctional reading i have of it as well.

[Darg]

How is that not dysfunctional? There is never a change in the material. Gold to gold statue. It's still gold. The statue will be worth its weight in gold. Meaning you just sent the statue's mass in gold to the void. Molds are an extremely old technology and it makes no sense that the intent would have you literally throw possibly astronomical amounts of currency just to make something look pretty or be functional. Even the xp to gold conversion isn't as ridiculous as this. Not to mention to mention the RAW of free materials being free.


The words on the page are what they are. Deducing things from the text is not the same as the text saying something. Nothing that isn't a quote from a rulebook is RAW.

What? You literally made no sense.


Fabricate
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: See text
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: Up to 10 cu. ft./level; see text
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material. Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell. The quality of items made by this spell is commensurate with the quality of material used as the basis for the new fabrication. If you work with a mineral, the target is reduced to 1 cubic foot per level instead of 10 cubic feet.

You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship.

Casting requires 1 round per 10 cubic feet (or 1 cubic foot) of material to be affected by the spell.
Material Component

The original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created.


How is converting material not RAW?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How is converting material not RAW?Because the material is destroyed before it's converted. The spell tries to convert something that no longer exists, because it targets the material components as they're annihilated.

It's like if dominate person killed and disintegrated its target. Sure, you mind-controlled the target, except the target is no longer alive to be mind-controlled, making that function of the spell pointless.

[Darg]

Because the material is destroyed before it's converted. The spell tries to convert something that no longer exists, because it targets the material components as they're annihilated.

It's like if dominate person killed and disintegrated its target. Sure, you mind-controlled the target, except the target suffered existence failure, so the spell hardly functions as intended.

The target is chosen as part of casting the spell. Your component is only consumed upon completion of the cast. The effect of the spell comes into effect upon completion of the cast. They can happen simultaneously which means that the material doesn't have to be destroyed in the objective sense. Taking a gold bar and converting it into a statue destroys the original material because the material is now a gold statue and not a gold bar. This satisfies RAW whether you believe it or not.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The target is chosen as part of casting the spell. Your component is only consumed upon completion of the cast. The effect of the spell comes into effect upon completion of the cast. They can happen simultaneously which means that the material doesn't have to be destroyed in the objective sense. Taking a gold bar and converting it into a statue destroys the original material because the material is now a gold statue and not a gold bar. This satisfies RAW whether you believe it or not.The material component is "annihilated." It's not "changed to something else, so it no longer exists in its previous form." It no longer exists, period. That's how material components work.

[InvisibleBison]

The target is chosen as part of casting the spell. Your component is only consumed upon completion of the cast. The effect of the spell comes into effect upon completion of the cast. They can happen simultaneously which means that the material doesn't have to be destroyed in the objective sense. Taking a gold bar and converting it into a statue destroys the original material because the material is now a gold statue and not a gold bar. This satisfies RAW whether you believe it or not.

No, you select the target when you finish casting the spell, at the same time that the material component is annihilated - or possibly afterwards, depending on how you interpret the relevant rules (material components "are annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process", which could mean during the casting of the spell or at the completion of the casting of the spell).

[sreservoir]

No, you select the target when you finish casting the spell, at the same time that the material component is annihilated - or possibly afterwards, depending on how you interpret the relevant rules (material components "are annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process", which could mean during the casting of the spell or at the completion of the casting of the spell).

It would be weird if the material component still existed at completion of the spell since the material (and xp) costs are expended whether or not the casting succeeds, since that would invert causality when you fail a concentration check.

[Darg]

The material component is "annihilated." It's not "changed to something else, so it no longer exists in its previous form." It no longer exists, period. That's how material components work.

It is annihilated. The original material no longer exists. Regardless of how you interpret it, the English language allows for this interpretation which is the most likely intent of the operation of the spell.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It is annihilated. The original material no longer exists. Regardless of how you interpret it, the English language allows for this interpretation which is the most likely intent of the operation of the spell.It really doesn't.


an·​ni·​hi·​late | \ ə-ˈnī-ə-ˌlāt \
annihilated; annihilating
Definition of annihilate
transitive verb

1a: to cause to cease to exist : to do away with entirely so that nothing remains

If something "ceases to exist," you can't make anything out of it, because it no longer exists. Note that grinding a tree into dust in order to make paper, or whatever, doesn't "annihilate" the tree, even if it does effectively destroy its existence as a tree. You cannot "annihilate" something and expect anything at all to remain, because it "ceases to exist so that nothing remains."

So annihilating material components means there's literally nothing left to turn into anything.

Houseruling is fine, even necessary, but don't houserule it and call it RAW, because it ain't, and RAW don't work.

[Darg]

You are applying a narrow definition of annihilation when it has a broader definition and use. I'm not even trying to change your mind. I'm providing a valid interpretation that follows the likely intent of the spell. Saying it's wrong would be disparaging the fluidity of language. Just because you have a single understanding does not mean that other understandings don't exist.