Magical Secrets at Level 10: what to choose now that Tasha's has added some options.

[KorvinStarmast]

I am looking perhaps too far ahead, but I see some more choices cropping up in Tashas that intrigue me. (particularly the Summon Celestial spell in Tasha's, 5th level cleric and paladin)

For spells not on the bard list at all,
What are the top 5 level 5 spells to pick from when I arrive at the spell store upon gaining bard level 10?
What say ye, Playgrounders?

(I'll get to choose two, and if there's an especialy sweet 4th level spell, toss that in)

Options like Wall of Force and Animate Objects are already strong. I won't pick Raise Dead since we have a cleric.
Lucky for me, it will be some time before the choice has to be made, but I'd like to compare a well curated list (maybe a top 10 gleaned from your responses) for The Best Level 5 Spells In The Game that are not on the Bard list.

I am also asking because my favorite bard guide here has not been updated for Tasha's new spells. Plus, he said this:

I will not be rating spells eligible for choice using Magical Secrets, as ranking every spell in the game sounds like a horrible experience. Just make sure one of your choices is Counterspell, and remember that Telekinesis benefits from Jack of All Trades and Peerless Skill.

General Build info.
Loe Bard, support
1. Party comp is 1 bard, 1 paladin, 1 cleric, 1 rogue, 1 warlock
2. My general role is as a support and sometimes a party face but not primary party face (yet; our group is still settling into its roles at the moment).
Background is Sailor; thieves tools subbed in for navigator tools.
Bard Expertise at 3 is in Athletics and Stealth.

[Mobius Twist]

A few more questions to help narrow things down:

1) Primary opposition being faced in the campaign. Humanoids vs. undead vs. dragons all lead to very different selections.
2) Any aspects of spellcasting that your character finds distasteful or unlikely to select (I ask because my Lore Bard loves libraries and consequently avoids fire/lightning spells).
3) Typical combat environment - a boat on the open seas (given your sailor background) would be very different than a cramped underground dungeon or a wide-open urban environment.

[MaxWilson]

Options like Wall of Force and Animate Objects are already strong. I won't pick Raise Dead since we have a cleric.

Also, Raise Dead and Animate Objects are already on the Bard spell list, no Magical Secrets needed.

I don't think Tasha's changed the metagame for Magical Secrets. None of the Tasha's spells are so good that they outcompete existing options like Find Greater Steed, Conjure Animals, Aura of Vitality, Wall of Force, Telekinesis, etc., although if your DM gives the cleric the Alternative Spellcasting Feature trait for clerics he or she might get Aura of Vitality without you needing to spend a secret.

[Gignere]

Summon Celestial might be a good choice as it is quite beefie and spits off temp hp machine. So it can likely last a few battles so an efficient use of your spell slots.

[KorvinStarmast]

A few more questions to help narrow things down:

1) Primary opposition being faced in the campaign. Humanoids vs. undead vs. dragons all lead to very different selections.
2) Any aspects of spellcasting that your character finds distasteful or unlikely to select (I ask because my Lore Bard loves libraries and consequently avoids fire/lightning spells).
3) Typical combat environment - a boat on the open seas (given your sailor background) would be very different than a cramped underground dungeon or a wide-open urban environment.
(3) It's an open world, and we have already done waterborne, underwater, caves, open terrain, underground/dungeon. Anything goes. Airborne combat is something I suspect will eventually be in play (she already has featherfall :smallsmile: )

(1) Not sure. All 3, most likely. Perhaps I'll get a better idea of what to select based on the foes we see looming at that point in the campaign. So far, ample humanoid opponents, and since it is an open world with a variety of factions and races, I'll guess plenty of humanoid opponents in the future.

(2) My bard refuses to animate dead creatures and thereby create undead. It's against her principles. It might be a real effort to convince her to speak to the dead, but since she's a lore bard, she might need some info that the dead creature knows or knew, so I won't rule that out. Would probably delegate that to our cleric, though, when all said and done. He's a bit less squeamish than she is.

Also, Raise Dead and Animate Objects are already on the Bard spell list, no Magical Secrets needed. Gaah, me and my speed reading spell lists ... :smallyuk:

Find Greater Steed, Conjure Animals, Aura of Vitality, Wall of Force, Telekinesis, Telekinesis is that good?
Are you suggesting that when I get Magical Secrets at 6th that Telekinesis is a finalist? Hmm, need to rethink. Not sure if our Warlock likes that spell, I'll consult with him. If he likes it I won't duplicate his spell load out.
Wait a second, standard Warlock doesn't get Telekinesis? He's Hexblade, and IIRC, Pact of Blade, need to check.
Hmmm. Checked. Maybe I need to take that at 6. It's a very useful spell.

Summon Celestial might be a good choice as it is quite beefie and spits off temp hp machine. So it can likely last a few battles so an efficient use of your spell slots. Yep, that's what jumped out at me. Also, I like to think tactically, and getting a bit more mileage out of the action economy with a summons does appeal to me.

[RogueJK]

Here's a recent discussion on post-Tasha's Magical Secrets. https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?622683-What-spells-should-I-consider-for-bards-magical-secrets

TL;DR version - Tasha's didn't change much in that regard. The go-to options are still the same, with the specific choices being driven by your party composition (basically whether you can access these spells through other means) and campaign specific details (like if it's a seafaring campaign something like Water Breathing would be more useful, or if you're battling Fiends 99% of the time something like Dispel Evil and Good would be more useful).

The standard options are stuff like Fly, Counterspell, Find Greater Steed, Haste, Wall of Force, Circle of Power, Fireball, etc.

[KorvinStarmast]

Here's a recent discussion on post-Tasha's Magical Secrets. https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?622683-What-spells-should-I-consider-for-bards-magical-secrets

TL;DR version - Tasha's didn't change much in that regard. The go-to options are still the same, with the specific choices being driven by your party composition (basically whether you can access these spells through other means) and campaign specific details (like if it's a seafaring campaign something like Water Breathing would be more useful, or if you're battling Fiends 99% of the time something like Magic Circle or Banishment would be more useful).

The standard options are stuff like Fly, Counterspell, Find Greater Steed, Haste, Wall of Force, Circle of Power, Fireball, etc. Ooh, shame on my lousy search fu, and thanks for the link! :smallsmile: And double shame on me since I made a post in that thread. (I blame my advanced age. Yeah, that's my story and I'm sticking to it!)

[RogueJK]

In your particular circumstances and party composition, I'd consider going with Counterspell (unless the Warlock has it) and Fly (unless the Warlock has it). If the Warlock has either of those and can be counted on to utilize them when needed, then Wall of Force would be my next choice, followed by Circle of Power or perhaps Haste (depending on which you think would be of more use).



Yep, that's what jumped out at me. Also, I like to think tactically, and getting a bit more mileage out of the action economy with a summons does appeal to me.

Summon Celestial is a potentially solid post-Tasha's option, but I'd encourage the Cleric to prepare that, and use your picks to get spells that you wouldn't otherwise have access to.

[KorvinStarmast]

In your particular circumstances and party composition, I'd go with Counterspell (unless the Warlock has it) and Fly (unless the Warlock has it). If the Warlock has either of those and can be counted on to utilize them when needed, then Wall of Force would be my next choice, followed by either Haste or Circle of Power (depending on which you think would see more use).

Summon Celestial is a potentially solid option, but I'd encourage the Cleric to handle that, and use your picks to get spells that you wouldn't otherwise have access to. Since I don't think this campaign will go to 17, what 5th level Paladin spell shines forth (beyond the usual upgraded find steed spell ...) I see Circle of Power, I need to get more familiar with that spell. Destructive Wave is tempting ... but I am more support than damage producer.

[RogueJK]

Since I don't think this campaign will go to 17, what 5th level Paladin spell shines forth (beyond the usual upgraded find steed spell ...) I see Circle of Power, I need to get more familiar with that spell. Destructive Wave is tempting ... but I am more support than damage producer.

For a 5th level Paladin spell, definitely Circle of Power. It's a 30' radius aura that grants you and any allies in it Magic Resistance + Quasi-Evasion. And it lasts for 10 minutes.

Bards with Magic Secrets and the new Twilight Clerics are the only ones that get it at a reasonable level (10 instead of 17). It's very useful from 10th-20th level.


I wouldn't do Destructive Wave. You'd be better served picking something else with your Magical Secrets, and using Synaptic Static (which is already on the Bard list) for times when you need an AoE blast+debuff spell.

[bendking]

Here's a recent discussion on post-Tasha's Magical Secrets. https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?622683-What-spells-should-I-consider-for-bards-magical-secrets

TL;DR version - Tasha's didn't change much in that regard. The go-to options are still the same, with the specific choices being driven by your party composition (basically whether you can access these spells through other means) and campaign specific details (like if it's a seafaring campaign something like Water Breathing would be more useful, or if you're battling Fiends 99% of the time something like Dispel Evil and Good would be more useful).

The standard options are stuff like Fly, Counterspell, Find Greater Steed, Haste, Wall of Force, Circle of Power, Fireball, etc.

Pretty much this.

As I said in that post, I can hardly see when Find Greater Steed and Wall of Force are not the best options.
Wall of Force is the most busted 5th level spell in the game, and one of the overall strongest spells out there.
Find Greater Steed is crazy strong. Flying with no concentration (at level 10, no less) is a superpower. Take it.

On other picks:
Fly is redundant with Find Greater Steed. It's also concentration, and limited in duration, which Find Greater Steed is neither.
Haste is a good spell, but you're not lacking in good concentration spells. Haste is also pretty risky if you're in tight quarters, since losing concentration on it sucks.
Counterspell is great, but again, not at the same power level as game-changing spells like Find Greater Steed and Wall of Force. Tell your Warlock to take it. A great option for Lore Bard though.
Fireball is a staple Sorcerer/Wizard spells and is amazing for the level you get it, but at level 10 it's a lot less remarkable. Again, a good option for Lore Bard.
Circle of Power is actually an amazing pick. If you're in a campaign with a lot of magical effects, you might prefer it over Wall of Force.

Regarding Tasha's new spells, I'm not terribly impressed.
The summoning spells are pretty good, but not nearly as busted as Wall of Force and Find Greater Steed.

[KorvinStarmast]

For a 5th level Paladin spell, definitely Circle of Power. Man, that's a good spell. And I am a support character. This gets into the top three for sure. I am tempted to get Holy Weapon for the Paladin, but Circle of Power helps the whole party.

Wall of Force: our warlock can't get it, I think I will need to.
It's such a handy spell.

Death Ward is a fine spell but we have a cleric.
Find Greater Steed may need to wait or 14th level, if the campaign goes that far.

[RogueJK]

Fly is redundant with Find Greater Steed. It's also concentration, and limited in duration, which Find Greater Steed is neither.

Not totally redundant, though there is plenty of overlap.

Fly can be upcast to allow more than 1 party member to fly. Whereas only one or two party members can ride on a Griffon at one time, and they can't move independent of each other when doing so.

But I agree that Fly is more optimal as a 6th level pick on a Lore Bard, and Find Greater Steed is certainly more useful in certain situations. However, with the current party composition of melee-heavy characters, if they have no other means for multiple members of the party to fly at once, then I'd likely pick Fly over Find Greater Steed. That way when faced with flying foes, the Bard could get the Paladin, Hexblade, and Cleric or Rogue into the air and moving independently in 3D.

Hopefully the Warlock has Fly, though. That would handily solve that conundrum. :smallsmile:

[KorvinStarmast]

Hopefully the Warlock has Fly, though. That would handily solve that conundrum. :smallsmile: We'll see what our Warlock chooses in due course. Given the make up of our group, I am very much 'hands off' with recommendations for this player based on what I know of him so far. By the time we reach level 10 I'll have discerned how much input he'll accept on spell choices, since Warlock like Bards have to choose with care to get the "just right" fit for their character concept.

Taking "fly" at 6 isn't something I want to do, though. It was kind of far down my list, but it does have the benefit of adding more PCs into the flight as spell slot goes up.

[RogueJK]

Wait... I just reread the OP, and realized you're a Lore Bard. (I overlooked the "Loe Bard" line the first time.) What were your 6th level Magical Secrets picks?

Or if you haven't even hit 6th level yet, I'd highly recommend taking Counterspell and Fly at 6th. That would solve that issue, and leave 10th open for Circle of Power and Wall of Force (or one of those and Find Greater Steed).

[KorvinStarmast]

What were your 6th level Magical Secrets picks?

Or if you haven't even hit 6th level yet, I'd highly recommend taking Counterspell and Fly at 6th. That would solve that issue, and leave 10th open for Circle of Power and Wall of Force (or one of those and Find Greater Steed). Have not turned 6 yet, but I had already looked very hard at Conjure Animals (we don't have a druid) as a first choice. There's fly available (two giant eagles, two PCs can fly for an hour as passengers, and it scales up with casting level later) Also, fun with animals in general. From that other thread.
We have a halfling paladin who likes to ride things. The player wants to do animal handling on ... everything, including beasts like giant sharks that are trying to attack us. I expect to have to make a decision soon. Your point on counterspell, since I am support, is well made.
Will discuss with our Warlock. But if he takes Counterspell, still trying to figure that out.
Aura of Vitality looks appealing, as does gaseous form since it can get someone out of a very sticky situation. But it's so situational ...

Thematically: Water Breathing. My background is pirate, and we may have further underwater adventures. We got WB from a scroll for this latest underwater caper, and I don't doubt that we may need it again. Druid spell, not cleric spell. But it is situational, while Counterspell is probably applicable to a broader array of threats.

[RogueJK]

Your point on counterspell, since I am support, is well made.

In addition to it being very useful (almost a necessity against higher level casters) for at least one party member to have anyway, keep in mind that Bards are the best Counterspell class in the game. (Except for Level 10+ Abjuration Wizards specifically.)

Your Jack of All Trades ability lets you add half your proficiency bonus to the Counterspell roll. No other caster gets to do that... For everyone else it's just a straight spellcasting ability check. (Except Level 10+ Abjuration Wizards who get to apply their full proficiency bonus to Counterspell rolls thanks to Improved Abjuration.)

So Bards will succeed more often than someone of another (non-Abjurer) class with an equal spellcasting ability modifier.

[KorvinStarmast]

In addition to it being very useful (almost a necessity against higher level casters) for at least one party member to have anyway, keep in mind that Bards make the best Counterspellers in the game.

Your Jack of All Trades ability lets you add half your proficiency bonus to the Counterspell roll. No other caster gets to do that... For everyone else it's just a straight spellcasting ability check. So Bards will succeed more often than someone of another class with an equal spellcasting ability modifier. Oooh, I had not considered that aspect.

It's like the boost to Initiative I get from Jack of All trades, right? Initiative is an unnamed Dexterity ability check.
Counterspell for a higher level is an unnamed Charisma ability check. So I apply JoAT. Sweet! :smallcool:

I'll discuss with the party, but you've made an excellent case. Thank You! :smallbiggrin:

[RogueJK]

Have not turned 6 yet, but I had already looked very hard at Conjure Animals (we don't have a druid) as a first choice. There's fly available (two giant eagles, two PCs can fly for an hour as passengers, and it scales up with casting level later) Also, fun with animals in general.

Conjure Animals is certainly a great summoning spell. But the Giant Eagles On Demand Flying Taxi Service only applies if your DM allows you to choose which specific animals you're summoning.

Many/most DMs will follow the model whereby the Conjure Animal caster chooses the CR level, but then the DM chooses the animal (either randomly or specifically). This is what is laid out in the Sage Advice Compendium:


When you cast a spell like conjure woodland beings, does the spellcaster or the DM choose the creatures that are conjured?
Some spells of this sort specify that the spellcaster chooses the creature conjured. For example, Find Familiar gives the caster a list of animals to choose from. Other spells of this sort let the spellcaster choose from among several broad options. For example, Conjure Minor Elementals offers four options. The design intent for options like these is that the spellcaster chooses one of them, and then the DM decides what creatures appear that fit the chosen option.

So you'll want to clarify with your DM if he's going to be following the Sage Advice/RAI model where the DM gets to pick which animal appears, or just allow you to choose a specific animal like a Giant Eagle every time.

In addition, even if your DM allows Giant Eagles On Demand, while that's certainly a useful way to fly for exploration, it can be tougher to utilize Conjured eagles as a means for melee-based party members to fly in combat and engage flying enemies.

Something to consider.

[KorvinStarmast]

Conjure Animals is certainly a great summoning spell. But the Giant Eagles On Demand Flying Taxi Service only applies if your DM allows you to choose which specific animals you're summoning.

Many/most DMs will follow the model of the "caster chooses the CR level, then the DM chooses the animal either randomly or specifically". This is what is laid out in the Sage Advice Compendium: I'll discuss with our DM before I make the choice. It does vary by table.

In addition, even if your DM allows Giant Eagles On Demand, while that's certainly a useful way to fly for exploration, it can be tougher to utilize Conjured eagles as a means for melee-based party members to fly in combat and engage flying enemies.

Something to consider. Yes, but I also like a pair of Dire Wolves to knock things over so that our martials (we have 3: paladin, blade pact hex blade, war domain cleric who likes to whack stuff) have advantage on attacks. Again, will discuss with DM on how that will work before makine the selection.

[mistajames]

The common wisdom is to pick up: 1. Counterspell; and, 2. Something else. Jack of All Trades works with Counterspell, which is already a guaranteed pick for classes that get access to it. This makes you the second best counterspeller there is (after Abjurer).

I would usually recommend against picking a level 5 spell at all, because the Bard L5 list is already quite good ala Animate Objects, Awaken, and Synaptic Static. The "best" L5 spell is Wall of Force.

Infernal Calling is also extremely good for Lore bards because it involves an opposed Cha skill check where you likely have expertise. If you call an Abishai, you're probably rolling a d20+11+1d8 against an opposed d20-1d8. First command should be to have the demon give you their talisman to force compliance and summon them every time. Pretty much guaranteed to have your command followed.

Other pick depends on your build. Call Greater Steed is very good because of the fly speed, action economy, and spell sharing. Sanctuary is the best defensive spell you can get access to. Healing Spirit is really good with a Life Cleric dip. Death Ward/Otiluke's Resilient Sphere are both quite interesting. Spirit Guardians if you want to mix it up in melee.

[Valmark]

Well, tecnically the best Counterspellers in the game are Abjuration Wizards. The party in this case doesn't have one so that's a forgettable detail, but I wanted to point it out.
EDIT: Ninja'd on the abjurers.

Anyway yeah, there is no spell in Tasha that would make me change my spell choices. For level 10 I'd take Circle of Power and Bigby's Hand in your case- I like BH far more then I like Telekinesys (in a fight) and BH uses your JOAT bonus and Peerless Skill too (also BH uses a 26 score for its effects, so tests will be far easier).

They are not the same (TK has more utility IMO outside of a fight) so one could even take both TK and BH, but that feels a bit like overkill.

Find Greater Steed, Destructive Wave and Wall Of Force are sweet picks too- though probably DW is worst then the others (and not very support-y). I have an hard time judging it since I just drool over party friendly AoEs.

You could want to double check how your DM rules sharing spells with FGS- there is some contention on what exactly "target only you" means.

Since you haven't picked your 6th level Secrets yet I'd break a lance in favor of Misty Step- it has saved my skin several times (example on, case in point, a lore bard: Ankheg coming from under my feet and trying to grapple me to drag me away). A cheap, bonus action emergency teleport is pretty good to have (if you have FGS that gets teleported too).
Also in my experience after a while 2nd level spells are kind of forgotten- Misty Step is evergreen though.

Aside from that definitely Counterspell.

Other 3rd level spells that come to mind are Spirit Guardians (though you already have a cleric), Conjure Animals and Aura Of Vitality (even when a paladin gets it it'll always be less of a cost on you).

Lastly, Tidal Wave. I don't think it's good enough to justify one of your two picks, but depending on your party and spells an AoE that Prones throwable in the air could be very useful.

[KorvinStarmast]

Anyway yeah, there is no spell in Tasha that would make me change my spell choices. For level 10 I'd take Circle of Power and Bigby's Hand in your case - I like BH far more then I like Telekinesys (in a fight) and BH uses your JOAT bonus and Peerless Skill too (also BH uses a 26 score for its effects, so tests will be far easier). OK, will do more reading up on that spell. There is something appealing, in my minds eye, to see my lady pirate bitch-slap a fire giant ... :smallbiggrin:

You could want to double check how your DM rules sharing spells with FGS- there is some contention on what exactly "target only you" means. Yeah, our party will need to pow wow on that also, in re flying steeds in general. Time to discuss that and keep it open as an option.

Since you haven't picked your 6th level Secrets yet I'd break a lance in favor of Misty Step - while 2nd level spells are kind of forgotten- Misty Step is evergreen though. OK, that's not one I'd considered, but I'll give it some thought.

Conjure Animals and Aura Of Vitality (even when a paladin gets it it'll always be less of a cost on you). That's one of the appeals of AoV to me: I get more slots and paladin can focus on other spells. (ours like Shield of Faith).

Lastly, Tidal Wave. I don't think it's good enough to justify one of your two picks, but depending on your party and spells an AoE that Prones throwable in the air could be very useful. And it is thematic as heck for my lady pirate. :smallbiggrin:

[Valmark]

Oh, a pirate?

Uh. Do you figure naval fighting? And would it be more a "capture the ship" or a "destroy the ship"?

I can't not mention Fireball and Maelstrom (3rd and 5th) for such a setting (Fireball to explode the cannon powder, Maelstrom locks a ship right down and slowly crushes it like a blender, 6d6 at a a time) but only for "destroy the ship" scenarios.

I'd have suggestions for the former but they are unethical for your PC (skeleton crew never was a more proper term).

If no naval combat is figured these suggestions can be safely ignored.

[RogueJK]

Since you haven't picked your 6th level Secrets yet I'd break a lance in favor of Misty Step- it has saved my skin several times (example on, case in point, a lore bard: Ankheg coming from under my feet and trying to grapple me to drag me away). A cheap, bonus action emergency teleport is pretty good to have (if you have FGS that gets teleported too).
Also in my experience after a while 2nd level spells are kind of forgotten- Misty Step is evergreen though.

Misty Step is a solid spell choice, but post-Tasha's, I think it's actually better to get it through the Fey Touched feat.

You get +1 CHA, Misty Step known, another 1st Level Enchantment/Divination spell known, and free daily casting of those two new spells.

That's effectively "two extra 1st/2nd level Magical Secrets picks" (with limitations), plus two additional spell slots (with limitations), plus a CHA half-feat. Crazy good on a Bard, and leaves your Magical Secrets picks for other stuff.


On a support-focused Lore Bard, I'd probably lean towards Bless for my free 1st level choice, as a go-to for times when your Concentration isn't needed on something else. Yes, the Paladin and Cleric can already cast it, but this potentially frees them to Concentrate on other stuff in fights when you're doing the Blessing. (I played a Cleric 1/Lore Bard X before, and there were a number of combats, even at higher levels, when I was still casting Bless because my Concentration wasn't specifically needed for something higher/better, and because Bless is something that's just always useful.)

Detect Magic is also potentially a good utility choice, depending on the campaign, letting you cast it as a Bard Ritual whenever you have the time, and have a free daily casting up your sleeve for situations when you need it right now and don't have a full minute to devote to the Ritual.

Or Gift of Alacrity is a nice all-day-long small buff to 1 party member, if you want to make the most of the "daily free casting" aspect.

[Valmark]

Misty Step is a solid spell choice, but post-Tasha's, I think it's actually better to get it through the Fey Touched feat.

You get +1 CHA, Misty Step known, another 1st Level Enchantment/Divination spell known (like Disguise Self, Gift of Alacrity, Bless, etc.), and free daily casting of those two new spells.

That's effectively "two free extra low level Magical Secrets picks", plus two additional spell slots (with limitations), plus a CHA half-feat. Crazy good on a Bard, and leaves your Magical Secrets picks for other stuff.

Honestly, I'd take it on anybody (assuming I justify the fluff)- and yeah, if he can spare the feat definitely better to take the feat then spend an MS on it.

[KorvinStarmast]

Oh, a pirate? Well, she's got a sailor background and her captain (before they got taken out by rivals) certainly raided as much as he traded. She's not trying to recruit new pirates, at the moment, but who knows what the future brings? She styles herself "A Lady of Fortune" but is currently on a different side of the continent than where she was sea faring.

Uh. Do you figure naval fighting? And would it be more a "capture the ship" or a "destroy the ship"? Maybe. But the maritime portion may close out before too many more levels come to pass. Hard to say.

I can't not mention Fireball and Maelstrom (3rd and 5th) for such a setting (Fireball to explode the cannon powder, Maelstrom locks a ship right down and slowly crushes it like a blender, 6d6 at a a time) but only for "destroy the ship" scenarios. If the campaign ends up a level 10 with me running a privateer or pirate fleet, Maelstrom looks strong. I'd rather capture a ship than burn it to the waterline. Profit! :smallbiggrin:

If no naval combat is figured these suggestions can be safely ignored. Yeah, time to see how the campaign shapes up.

[bendking]

In addition to it being very useful (almost a necessity against higher level casters) for at least one party member to have anyway, keep in mind that Bards are the best Counterspell class in the game. (Except for Level 10+ Abjuration Wizards specifically.)

Your Jack of All Trades ability lets you add half your proficiency bonus to the Counterspell roll. No other caster gets to do that... For everyone else it's just a straight spellcasting ability check. (Except Level 10+ Abjuration Wizards who get to apply their full proficiency bonus to Counterspell rolls thanks to Improved Abjuration.)

So Bards will succeed more often than someone of another (non-Abjurer) class with an equal spellcasting ability modifier.

Sorcerers with Subtle Spell might be better.
Sure, they don't have a +1/2/3 to their check, but their Counterspell is impossible to Counterspell, which is huge, and the new Sorcerer class feature (Magical Guidance) also allows you to re-roll the check for a mere 1 SP, which on average is worth about +3, and on low rolls is worth about +5.

[KorvinStarmast]

Also, I like to think tactically, and getting a bit more mileage out of the action economy with a summons does appeal to me.
OK, I took Counterspell and Conjure Animals. DM is cool with my default summons being two Dire Wolves (less overhead for him) and we'll work in the Giant Eagles thing as the issue arises. He's flexible.

But I am a hopeless tinkerer. You all gave me so many good ideas.
We are level 9 now, so when we next level up I have to make The Choice.
1. Wall of Force
2. Arrggh, indecision doth vex me. :smallfurious:
Current list for the second one includes:

Summon Dragon (Tasha's)
Summon Celestial (as above)
Our cleric retired (sad face) so Spirit Guardians is back in the mix ... maybe ... I can't tank like he did ...
Circle of Power
Steel Wind Strike


As for the latter consideration: Every so often, a pirate lady needs to cut loose with her cutlass/rapier and lay waste to a crowd of enemies ... Gotta keep the rep up as a fell handed scourge of the seas! :smallwink: Plus, it makes for cool song lyrics.

[RogueJK]

If the Cleric retired, I'd take a hard look at Banishment, although I'd probably still lean toward Circle of Power.

And then take Greater Restoration and Raise Dead as Bard spells. Or at least keep some scrolls of those around.

[KorvinStarmast]

If the Cleric retired, I'd take a hard look at Banishment, although I'd probably still lean toward Circle of Power.

And then take Greater Restoration and Raise Dead as Bard spells. Or at least keep some scrolls of those around. Already have Greater Restoration, and Raise Dead may get chosen as the bard spell; will discuss with the party should we arrive at level 10 alive.
Currently involved with an adult blue dragon's missing son, a debt that has to be paid, and a temple that got desecrated.
Could get dicey ...

[PhoenixPhyre]

1. Party comp is 1 bard, 1 paladin, 1 cleric, 1 rogue, 1 warlock


FYI (speaking as the DM of that group)--we don't currently have an active cleric. We have a divine soul sorcerer (with a side of fiend warlock). The cleric is tending babies currently.

I don't know if the difference between divine soul and cleric is meaningful here, but wanted to be clear.

Oops. didn't see this was an old topic recently resurrected and that that had been mentioned.

[da newt]

BTW - for transport Giant Owls >> Giant Eagles (Cr 1/4 vs CR 1)

And I'd rethink Find Greater Steed - it's pretty close to 24/7 vs all the others which have very limited duration, but I'd still probably go with Circle of Power IF party composition wouldn't benefit from a FGS permanent addition to the party.

[Valmark]

I'm going to mention Maelstrom again- it's pretty good both in control and damage and also pretty tematic.

Also Bigby's Hand- wouldn't pick it for damage but it's good on your action economy and pretty versatile. Given the size and strenght score there's also little that can counter the grapples.

Otherwise FGS is pretty sweet, though like back in the other time it was talked about it depends on how exactly your DM treats Sharing spells.
And since Wall of Force is a Concentration 5th level spell picking something lower level could be better since it'll give more options.

Finally Destructive Wave- I'm a sucker for an AoE that ignores allies. Only suited if you do go into melee though (notably it knocks prone, so if fliers fail their save it sucks to be them!).

[KorvinStarmast]

FYI (speaking as the DM of that group)--we don't currently have an active cleric. We have a divine soul sorcerer (with a side of fiend warlock).
Yeah, that has changed things a bit; I am taking raise dead as the next Bard 5th level spell, and pondering my other choices.

Bigby's Hand: would I used my expertise in Athletics with Bigby's hand, or, does the hand just do its own Athletics check if I try to grapple something with it?

EDIT: I am not sure I'll be able to apply my athletics score to that, bummer!



Clenched Fist. The hand strikes one creature or object within 5 feet of it. Make a melee spell attack for the hand using your game statistics. On a hit, the target takes 4d8 force damage.
Subtle change here ...

Forceful Hand. The hand attempts to push a creature within 5 feet of it in a direction you choose. Make a check with the hand's Strength contested by the Strength (Athletics) check of the target. If the target is Medium or smaller, you have advantage on the check. If you succeed, the hand pushes the target up to 5 feet plus a number of feet equal to five times your spellcasting ability modifier. The hand moves with the target to remain within 5 feet of it. It appears that the hand is not proficient with Athletics, so it's a raw strength check using the hands STR: +8. And I am pretty sure that, since it is not a creature, I can't give it Bardic Inspiration. (Darn, I was so hoping for my athletics expertise to help here, but I am not seeing it)


Grasping Hand. The hand attempts to grapple a Huge or smaller creature within 5 feet of it. You use the hand's Strength score to resolve the grapple. If the target is Medium or smaller, you have advantage on the check. While the hand is grappling the target, you can use a bonus action to have the hand crush it. When you do so, the target takes bludgeoning damage equal to 2d6 + your spellcasting ability modifier.
Once again, that looks kind of specific in terms of "use the hand's strength score" and not my proficiency. (boo, hiss!) Oh well, +16 on the check would be cheese like, I guess.

I am still gonna slap a giant, or giantess, in the face with this even if it's only once. :smallbiggrin:

Bigby's Hand It Is! :smallbiggrin: