Need a feat that isn't DMM for my Cleric

[heavyfuel]

Hello, everyone!

My gish Cleric just got to level 6 and I'm having trouble deciding on a feat. Available books are Core, PHB2, Completes, BoED, and BoVD (though char is Good).

I'm not going to use DMM on this character, so stuff like Extra Turning isn't great. Leadership has been banned, as well.

Since he's missing 1 CL due to a dip, I considered Practiced Spellcaster, but I'm not sure a single Caster Level is worth it. Another contender is Improved Initiative to help his abysmal init. However, since he's not a great crowd controler, I don't think init is that important for him.

I can't find a feat that I feel is actually worth the price for him. Any suggestions?

[Biggus]

Some of the other divine feats are decent, I've had good use out of Divine Vigor (CW), Divine Spell Power (CD) and Divine Might (CW). The latter is only really worth it if you have a pretty good Cha, the other two work OK with just Cha 12 (there are lots of ways to boost the check for DSP).

What feats do you have already?

[AvatarVecna]

Just with how CR and EL are set up, the default assumption is that you're going to come out of most fights victorious, so it's more a question of how many resources those fights cost you. Since beating the enemy will take X turns regardless of whether you get your turns first or second, initiative matters for determining how many chances your enemies get to hurt you before you inevitably beat them. This means that Improved Initiative and other init boosts are very roundabout defensive buffs. And if you're playing a beatstick/healer kinda cleric, HP management is a big part of your job - making sure the enemy gets one fewer turns to chew through your team's HP is a good way to spend your feats.

If you're looking for non-II suggestions, though, Spontaneous Domains (Complete Champion) lets you turn your domain slot spontaneous if you leave it unprepared, letting you cast it as either domain spell as the day proves to need (although making it less useful to metamagic the domain spells).

[Troacctid]

Well, if it were me, I'd be looking at domain feats and reserve feats. They can be pretty nice for casters in general, and for clerics in specific.

[Cygnia]

What role would you want to do in the party?

[heavyfuel]

Some of the other divine feats are decent, I've had good use out of Divine Vigor (CW), Divine Spell Power (CD) and Divine Might (CW). The latter is only really worth it if you have a pretty good Cha, the other two work OK with just Cha 12 (there are lots of ways to boost the check for DSP).

What feats do you have already?

Unfortunately I have a negative Cha mod, so Divine Feats aren't super great. Divine Vigor would last negative 1 minutes for me lol.

So far I have: Ancestral Relic, Maximize Spell, Mastery of Day and Night (even though it's not on the approved books, the DM allowed for this specific feat), Blind-Fight (from a Domain) and Combat Casting (so that I can go Divine Abjurant Champion)


Just with how CR and EL are set up, the default assumption is that you're going to come out of most fights victorious, so it's more a question of how many resources those fights cost you. Since beating the enemy will take X turns regardless of whether you get your turns first or second, initiative matters for determining how many chances your enemies get to hurt you before you inevitably beat them. This means that Improved Initiative and other init boosts are very roundabout defensive buffs. And if you're playing a beatstick/healer kinda cleric, HP management is a big part of your job - making sure the enemy gets one fewer turns to chew through your team's HP is a good way to spend your feats.

If you're looking for non-II suggestions, though, Spontaneous Domains (Complete Champion) lets you turn your domain slot spontaneous if you leave it unprepared, letting you cast it as either domain spell as the day proves to need (although making it less useful to metamagic the domain spells).

Yeah, I get that init is important for every character, I was just saying that for this PC isn't as important as it would be for, say, a God Wizard. Imp Init is definitely my top pick for now, but I still need feats for the future, and I might want to grab a pre-req or something now.

Spontaneous Domain is really nice, unfortunately I traded my 2nd domain for Divine Magician (so that I can use Shield as an Abjurant Champion).

[heavyfuel]

Well, if it were me, I'd be looking at domain feats and reserve feats. They can be pretty nice for casters in general, and for clerics in specific.

For domain feats, I took a look at them and not a single one stood out as something I'd take.

Reserve feats do have some interesting options. Minor Shapeshift and Summon Elemental are nice, but I can't pick them yet. Clap of Thunder is interesting for this character.


What role would you want to do in the party?

This guy is all about single target debuff. Not the best role, I know, but I wanted to try something different.

[Darg]

I like the Domain Spontaneity feat. It increases the number of times you can cast your domain spells per day at the low cost of a single turn attempt per cast. So extra turning/nightstick could have extra utility.

[Biggus]

This guy is all about single target debuff. Not the best role, I know, but I wanted to try something different.

In that case, maybe Spell Focus Enchantment or Necromancy?

[heavyfuel]

I like the Domain Spontaneity feat. It increases the number of times you can cast your domain spells per day at the low cost of a single turn attempt per cast. So extra turning/nightstick could have extra utility.

This is a nice feat! Not sure it's worth it for my Darkness domain since a lot of spells are extremely situational and thus unlikely to see more than 1 use per day, but still pretty great to keep in mind.


In that case, maybe Spell Focus Enchantment or Necromancy?

Not many Enchantment spells on the list, but SF:Necro might be useful

[u-b]

Well, since an "abysmal" init was mentioned, I assume Combat Reflexes would do you no good. If you have Shield spell, you have no use for Somatic Weaponry either. Can you make it twice per day with Protection Devotion (with a Reliquary Holy Symbol or what not)? It is party-wide, so might be some good. Failing that, maybe Martial Study.

[heavyfuel]

Well, since an "abysmal" init was mentioned, I assume Combat Reflexes would do you no good. If you have Shield spell, you have no use for Somatic Weaponry either. Can you make it twice per day with Protection Devotion (with a Reliquary Holy Symbol or what not)? It is party-wide, so might be some good. Failing that, maybe Martial Study.

"Abysmal" was more of a hyperbole than fact :smallbiggrin:

I do have +1 Dex, but you're right that Combat Ref isn't what I'm looking for.

Protect Devotion is an interesting way to "burn" my Turn Undead attempts since I'm not using them anyway. For some reason when looking through the Domain feats I thought it was a Standard Action use and, therefore, useless. Definitely something to keep in mind.

As for MS, I'd love nothing more than have ToB available in this game, but alas it's "extremely broken" and so it was banned.

[Anthrowhale]

The Domain Spontaneity feat combined with the Substitute Domain spell (Complete Champion) looks potentially interesting. It gives you (slow) spontaneous access to every domain spell and domain power.

In terms of reserve feats, Holy Warrior (complete champion) is gishy.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Too bad the Stronghold Builder's Guide isn't available. Applying Landlord to your Ancestral Relic (after enhancing it as something that can morph into a small "stronghold") is really rather nice.

Do you have much downtime? Craft Wondrous Item is one of the best feats out there, if you do. Especially if you can get yourself an enveloping pit and a dedicated wright.

[heavyfuel]

The Domain Spontaneity feat combined with the Substitute Domain spell (Complete Champion) looks potentially interesting. It gives you (slow) spontaneous access to every domain spell and domain power.

In terms of reserve feats, Holy Warrior (complete champion) is gishy.

I'm not sure this works. Domain Spontaneity requires you to choose one domain. If you swap it with Substitute Domain, I think it'd stop working since it's a different domain.


Do you have much downtime? Craft Wondrous Item is one of the best feats out there, if you do. Especially if you can get yourself an enveloping pit and a dedicated wright.

Some, not a lot.

I think the DM wouldn't allow the dedicated wright since they're Eberron material, but I'll check.

[bean illus]

I really don't care for imp init on non dextrous characters. It ends up being too situational.

If the character already wins +50% of all initiative, and you want them to win almost all of them, then a +4 imp int and a +2 Dex from anything else, and you go first, almost every time. If the character is going to boost dex throughout the campaign, it gets even better, as you go along.

But if you're winning initiative below -40% of the time, and don't plan on boosting Dex, ... it seems you'll spend a feat, and maybe a Dex boost too, yet still end up in the middle of the initiative order on most occasions.
With a +1 Dex mod, it's a hard call, but i probably wouldn't.

It's hard to go wrong with extend spell, on a cleric.

Gish? What's the dip? Why not power attack? I don't see much melee support in your feats. Divine power is coming up soon, and at least with a gish, you'll use PA every encounter.

How many feats does the build have free?

[Biggus]

Not many Enchantment spells on the list, but SF:Necro might be useful

Looking at single-target debuffs you can cast currently I found 4 Necromancy and 3 Enchantment in the PHB. What level do you expect the campaign to go to?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How about Wild Cohort (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a), if you can convince the DM to let you have it? You could get yourself a bear to buff and to act as a bodyguard. If you can somehow give it the feats you want, you could save on healing by giving it Draconic Aura: Vigor. It'll heal the whole party up to 1/2 hp when it's around via fast healing 1. Or just take Draconic Aura: Vigor yourself (although it's in Dragon Magic, so...).

[Anthrowhale]

I'm not sure this works. Domain Spontaneity requires you to choose one domain. If you swap it with Substitute Domain, I think it'd stop working since it's a different domain.

It does seem to require too much DM leniency to work.

Of others already mentioned, Divine Spell Power (for scaling buffs like Greater Magic Weapon/Vestment), Extend Spell (buffs last longer), and Improved Initiative all seem like decent choices.

There are some builds where Nymph's Kiss or Intuitive Attack are handy. I'd suggest Resounding Blow in combination with Surge of Fortune, except that I understand you Cha modifier is poor. Perhaps proficiency in a high-damage x4 critical weapon would be more helpful instead? The scythe is reasonable if you later want to add on Vorpal. On the other hand, picking that up at level 9 may make more sense.

[heavyfuel]

It's hard to go wrong with extend spell, on a cleric.

Gish? What's the dip? Why not power attack? I don't see much melee support in your feats. Divine power is coming up soon, and at least with a gish, you'll use PA every encounter.

How many feats does the build have free?

I honetly find Extend spell rather useless.

Round and minute/level spells are still only lasting one combat, 10min/level spells might last you an additional combat, but they aren't super common, and hour/level spells are still lasting the entire adventure day.

My "dip" was Human Paragon. I did get all 3 levels, but lost 1 CL at level 1.

The build has every feat free from now until the game ends lol


Looking at single-target debuffs you can cast currently I found 4 Necromancy and 3 Enchantment in the PHB. What level do you expect the campaign to go to?

Around level 15 probably.


How about Wild Cohort (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a), if you can convince the DM to let you have it? You could get yourself a bear to buff and to act as a bodyguard. If you can somehow give it the feats you want, you could save on healing by giving it Draconic Aura: Vigor. It'll heal the whole party up to 1/2 hp when it's around via fast healing 1. Or just take Draconic Aura: Vigor yourself (although it's in Dragon Magic, so...).

Wild Cohort is interesting. I'll check with the DM.


It does seem to require too much DM leniency to work.

Of others already mentioned, Divine Spell Power (for scaling buffs like Greater Magic Weapon/Vestment), Extend Spell (buffs last longer), and Improved Initiative all seem like decent choices.

There are some builds where Nymph's Kiss or Intuitive Attack are handy. I'd suggest Resounding Blow in combination with Surge of Fortune, except that I understand you Cha modifier is poor. Perhaps proficiency in a high-damage x4 critical weapon would be more helpful instead? The scythe is reasonable if you later want to add on Vorpal. On the other hand, picking that up at level 9 may make more sense.

Divine Spellpower kinda sucks when you dumped Cha, and Extend spell I feel is kinda useless (see above)

Intuitive Attack might work. My Str isn't too far from my Wis, so it won't be a huge buff, but definitely better than Weapon Focus if it comes to that lol

I'm already proficient in all Martial Weapons

[Anthrowhale]

I honetly find Extend spell rather useless.
If you boost your caster level a little bit, the hour/level spells last two adventuring days meaning you can buff twice as much or use half as many slots for buffing. Similarly, for 10 minute/level spells, they can shift to a full adventuring day (8 hours) with some caster level buffs by level 15. However, both of these situations become more evident at higher caster levels, so this might be a feat for later.

I'm already proficient in all Martial Weapons
Surge of Fortune will be lots of fun in melee then. It sounds like you may even be able to afford Vorpal before the adventure ends.

[AnimeTheCat]

Yeah, I would second Spell Focus in whatever school you're using most or Spell Penetration for when SR inevitably becomes an issue.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Yeah, I would second Spell Focus in whatever school you're using most or Spell Penetration for when SR inevitably becomes an issue.Ability Focus: Spells is way way way better than Spell Focus, unless you're using it for a prereq for something. +2 to all spells is way better than +1 to one school.

@heavyfuel - Speaking of prereqs, do you have any that you need to fill out, feat-wise?

[bean illus]

My "dip" was Human Paragon. I did get all 3 levels, but lost 1 CL at level 1.

The build has every feat free from now until the game ends lol

Around level 15 probably.

...

I'm already proficient in all Martial Weapons

Cleric 2/ Human Paragon 3/ Abj Champion ?
And you plan abj champ for levels 6-10?

So, we're kinda wondering about 3-4 feats, as far as combinations go?

Sometimes feats and dips can be see better in the big picture.

[heavyfuel]

If you boost your caster level a little bit, the hour/level spells last two adventuring days meaning you can buff twice as much or use half as many slots for buffing. Similarly, for 10 minute/level spells, they can shift to a full adventuring day (8 hours) with some caster level buffs by level 15. However, both of these situations become more evident at higher caster levels, so this might be a feat for later.

Surge of Fortune will be lots of fun in melee then. It sounds like you may even be able to afford Vorpal before the adventure ends.

Good point about late game, though I think by then I'll be able to afford some Metamagic Rods.

I didn't know about Surge of Fortune, but that's still some ways ahead. I'm CL 5, so I won't be able to cast that for at least 4 levels.


Yeah, I would second Spell Focus in whatever school you're using most or Spell Penetration for when SR inevitably becomes an issue.

Spell Penetration might be useful later indeed. Thanks for bringing that up.


Ability Focus: Spells is way way way better than Spell Focus, unless you're using it for a prereq for something. +2 to all spells is way better than +1 to one school.

@heavyfuel - Speaking of prereqs, do you have any that you need to fill out, feat-wise?

I don't think the DM would allow AF: Spells. He might allow it for a single spell, but that's useless.

As for pre-reqs, only Combat Casting, but that's taken care of.


Cleric 2/ Human Paragon 3/ Abj Champion ?
And you plan abj champ for levels 6-10?

So, we're kinda wondering about 3-4 feats, as far as combinations go?

Sometimes feats and dips can be see better in the big picture.

Cleric 4 actually. I need that BAB requirement. But yeah, that's the plan. No idea what to do beyond level 12, though. I don't usually plan my characters that far ahead.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

What do you have as the focus for Ancestral Relic? Putting some more feats towards improving that seems like it could be worthwhile.

Have you been playing this character for awhile? Is it possible to finagle your feats so that you can choose a 1st level feat for this? Because there are some very nice 1st level feats, such as Mercantile Background.

[heavyfuel]

What do you have as the focus for Ancestral Relic? Putting some more feats towards improving that seems like it could be worthwhile.

Have you been playing this character for awhile? Is it possible to finagle your feats so that you can choose a 1st level feat for this? Because there are some very nice 1st level feats, such as Mercantile Background.

A belt. Not sure how I could improve beyond the usual sacrifices and casting Consecrateto sacrifice things I normally wouldn't be able to.

The DM probably allows retraining, but I don't think he'd allow retraining lv 1 only feats since those are usually tied with the character's back story.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A belt. Not sure how I could improve beyond the usual sacrifices and casting Consecrateto sacrifice things I normally wouldn't be able to.

The DM probably allows retraining, but I don't think he'd allow retraining lv 1 only feats since those are usually tied with the character's back story.Item Familiar? Either on the belt or on another thing that would be useful. Depends on if you guys consider the SRD to be "core" or not (some groups do), or if some things from UA are allowed.

[heavyfuel]

Item Familiar? Either on the belt or on another thing that would be useful. Depends on if you guys consider the SRD to be "core" or not (some groups do), or if some things from UA are allowed.

Despite being on the SRD, the DM only allowed a handful of things from UA, Item Familiar not included :smallfrown:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Craft Contingent Spell could do wonders for everyone in the group. You might even say, miracles.

Do cooperative crafting with the other casters in the group to grant contingency buffs and heals and revivifies for everyone!

[sreservoir]

The time to craft contingent spells is pretty prohibitive in play. Even a 3rd-level spell requires at least two days of downtime to set up, and getting hit by a targeted dispel risks dropping all your contingent spells on the floor. And crafting them at a high caster level makes the crafting time even longer.

They're actually pretty bad unless you're using them specifically to break action economy in an encounter that you have plenty of time to prepare for (and/or take actions when you otherwise couldn't, e.g. because you're dead).

[Biggus]

I honetly find Extend spell rather useless.

Round and minute/level spells are still only lasting one combat, 10min/level spells might last you an additional combat, but they aren't super common, and hour/level spells are still lasting the entire adventure day.


I find it useful to make hour/level spells last all day at low levels, and 10 minute/level spells last all day at high levels. Agreed it's not often worth casting on short duration spells though.

[Troacctid]

The time to craft contingent spells is pretty prohibitive in play. Even a 3rd-level spell requires at least two days of downtime to set up, and getting hit by a targeted dispel risks dropping all your contingent spells on the floor. And crafting them at a high caster level makes the crafting time even longer.

They're actually pretty bad unless you're using them specifically to break action economy in an encounter that you have plenty of time to prepare for (and/or take actions when you otherwise couldn't, e.g. because you're dead).
1st- and 2nd-level spells can be done in one night while everyone else is sleeping. Just pick up a ring of sustenance and stay up.

[bean illus]

Shielded casting? Cast without provoking? It makes use of the combat casting prerequisite feat. Pretty nifty front line ability.

[DarkSoul]

Speaking from experience playing a martial cleric, Knowledge Devotion at 6, especially if Lore of the Gods and Guidance of the Avatar spells are allowed.

Follow up with Holy Warrior at 9 assuming you have the War domain.

[newguydude1]

you should shop for prcs. my feat selection is always kod by prerequisites.