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Fawsto
2007-11-05, 03:02 PM
Hi guys, I had this idea for a useful paladin a few days ago, and I am decided to try it, but I wonder what you think about it. I will apply this to a campaing set where I already have 3 fighter levels on my paladin-wanna-be character. (Yes, the question: why the hell I took the 3rd level? I don't know, pehaps I was drunk!)

I am not creating a super killer, I want to know if this build is nice enought to work, see?

This is the following: Fighter 3, wants Paladin levels and the Kensai PrC (about 5 levels).

strg 16
dex 8
con 13
int 14
wis 13
cha 14

Feats: Power attack, Use exotic weapon: Bastard Sword, Combat Especialization, Improved Trip, Knockdown.

Feats to get: Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword, Divine Might, Extra Turning x2*, Extra Smiting x2*, Combat reflexes (and a glove of dexterity + 4 xD)

The idea is: Weak Enemies: Knock 'em down and finish them off as soon as possible.
Strong Non-evil enemies that for some reason must die: Cast Divine Might and whack them down
Strong Evil Enemies: Smite 'em to dust. And pehaps cast the few Divine Might attacks.

Items to get: The basic for a Paladin + something to add cons, dex, str and cha.

I am planing this for far ahead.

I know, this is probably a subpar build, but I want to test it, do you think It is good enough as a all-round warrior for close quarters? Any ideas?

I have access to the 3.5 core, the Sword and Fist Family, the Complete Arcane, Divine, Warrior and Adventurer, draconomicon and exalted deeds.

Kurald Galain
2007-11-05, 03:17 PM
Ask if you can retrain the third fighter level (and possibly the first two; paladin is simply better) using the retraining rules in PHB2.

Try boosting your con somehow; more health is always good for a melee character. Don't worry about boosting dexterity (you have enough other scores to boost), instead wear decent magical armor.

Since you get a warhorse, try investing in mounted combat feats. They can do awesome amounts of damage.

Exotic weapon: bastard sword isn't worth it; try retraining that as well. Weapon focus: bastard sword isn't worth it either, and neither is extra turning. Combat reflexes is best with a reach weapon.

Exalted feats are very appropriate for a paladin, and several of them are quite overpowered. Read up on the BOED.

Keld Denar
2007-11-05, 03:26 PM
I suggest adding Power Attack and Divine Might. It lets you burn turn attempts to add Cha to damage on all attacks in a round. Since turning on paladins scales poorly, you burn your turns for damage. With that, I'd use a 2hander to get more mileage out of Power Attack, therefore get rid of Exotic Weapon Prof.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-11-05, 03:37 PM
Okay, your stats are pretty good. Please, for everyone's sake, retrain the third fighter level. If you're completely locked into it, remember to go fighter 4 before going into Paladin, otherwise it's a total waste.

Feats:
Power Attack -> Divine Might. Good.
Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword. Worse than useless. You're a Power Attack/Tripper build, you should be using a two-handed weapon, preferably one with reach. Beg your DM to switch this out for EWP: Spiked Chain and get a Spiked Chain, or for Short Haft and get a Guisarme if you want to look less silly.
Combat Expertise -> Improved Trip -> Knockdown. Excellent choice. Lets you battlefield control and deal damage at the same time.

Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword. No. Unless it's a prereq for something (I'm AFB, it might be for Kensai), Weapon Focus is never worth it, and I already explained that you shouldn't be using bastard swords.
Extra Turning: Meh. I'd recommend a Cloak of Charisma instead of this, though if you can get both...
Extra Smiting: Take this before Extra Turning. You get more damage from a Smite than a DMight, usually.
Combat Reflexes: You'll get exactly one extra AoO per turn with an (expensive) magic item. Not worth the investment.

Feats you should get: Improved Smiting (Complete Divine).
If you had CChamp, I'd recommend Awesome Smite, which adds some utility to your smite attacks.
Leap Attack (Complete Adventurer). You've got Power Attack, and probably more Skill Points than are actually useful in your Fighter levels. This makes charging nasty.

I'd recommend the Charging Smite variant over a mount at level 5. Mounts take a large feat investment to be really useful, and you'd have had to start by now. Leap Attack + Charging Smite turns you into a nightmare for the boss if you ever get within forty feet of him.

Finally, given the troubles you've had with alignment (see your other thread), I cannot recommend Exalted stuff. If you're willing to put the extra consideration into your actions, though, Fist of Raziel is a good PrC that really upgrades your smite ability. If you take this, ditch Improved Smiting as it has class features that duplicate it.

cupkeyk
2007-11-05, 03:53 PM
IF you want to go into kensai with a samurai sword, retrain your third level of fighter for a level of samurai.

My opinion for kensai power surge actually involves a bastard sword. Samurai 1> paladin 4> kensei 1> exotic weapon master 1> kensei 9> something4

You have concentration, diplomacy and ride as a class skill for all five levels of your base class too without having a sucky class like monk.

You maximize your power surge bonus with uncanny blow from exotic weapon master.

You will end up with FTR2 Samurai1 Paladin4 Exotic Weapon Master 1 Kensei 10 something 2.

elliott20
2007-11-05, 04:09 PM
Go power attack, get rid of weapon focus and EWP. Use the feats to grab some smite enhancing powers or mounted combat stuff. Combat Reflexes... not really worht it here. Your dex glove would probably be better with a CHA bonus item instead.

Keep the Bastard Sword if you just want it for flavor reasons. But really, you're better off with a great sword or a pole arm. (Or a lance if you fight on horse back)

Frosty
2007-11-05, 05:03 PM
Get 14 Wisdom if you can. Or else you can't cast level 4 pally spells.

Belkarseviltwin
2007-11-05, 05:07 PM
Get 14 Wisdom if you can. Or else you can't cast level 4 pally spells.

That will only matter at his 14th level of Paladin- which he probably won't take. Even if he does and doesn't use a stat bump, by level 14 2000gp for a +2 periapt is pocket change.

cupkeyk
2007-11-05, 05:19 PM
If you take the holy warrior variant in Complete Champion you can dumstat wis and gain feats at levels 4 8 11 and 14

Temp
2007-11-05, 07:06 PM
Question: Is the Unearthed Arcana Variants Section of d20srd.org considered "Core?"

If so, I would recommend taking the Prestige Paladin. It does a bit to compensate for your lost Paladin levels. You would need one level Cleric and one level Fighter (for Mounted Combat) for entry.

Bastard Sword, as has been said, is sub-optimal.

And don't take any of those feats... A couple +1 and +2 bonuses aren't worth your while... you'd probably be better off pumping your Concentration check with Skill Focus (and I'm not saying that's a good move at all). So drop those Extra Smitings if you aren't staying Paladin... and your Dex isn't good enough for Combat Reflexes, you might as well give that up.

Leap Attack is your friend... custom Concentration-boosting items are your friends... Improved Bull Rush/Shock Trooper's as good as ever... Improved Sunder/Combat Brute's been useful in my experience, doesn't seem to get much recognition, though.

My main point was Prestige Paladin, though. Give that 'un a look.

Fawsto
2007-11-05, 08:46 PM
I am the second meleer of the group (we have a full fledged combat ranger with us and he is using a 2 hander with power attack, he is owning), I am quite the defense guy, my job is to fight and bring down anything that gets too close, see? So I am a Sword and Board guy, but at the moment, I am using a VERY big board, being it a Tower Shield, so I got the most powerful damage vs crit weapon I could find in core, meaning the bastard sword. Believe it or not, I am doing 10+ damage per swing 80% of the time, so I am a pretty effective knocker. I need the weapon focus... Kensai requires it...

So I was wondering: I will take a new level as fighter (4th level to compensate for the 3rd) and I am to take 10 paladin levels and only 6 Kensai levels (I guess it is enough to get the best class features). And finish like this:

Fighter 1: Power attack
Use exotic weapon: Bastard (I am sword and board... But I also like this weapon)
Combat especialization
Fighter 2: Improved Trip
Fighter 3: Knockdown
Fighter 4: Weapon Focus: Bastard (for opening area for the Kensai PrC)
Paladin 2: Extra Smiting (Lol, lvl 6 with 3 smites seems cool)
Paladin 5: Divine Might
Paladin 8: Extra Turning
Kensai 1: Extra Smiting
Kensai 4: Extra Turning
total 20 : 11 feats.

meaning 7 smites and 13 + cha modifier turn undeads.

total BAB: 18 (almost full BAB)
base save bonuses: 13 6 8
hit die: full d10 progretion
skills: poor 2 + int all the way

It is ok?

Kurald Galain
2007-11-06, 05:31 AM
I'm not sure what a Kensai does (don't have the book around) but I should point out that sword-n-board is a very weak strategy in D&D, because the (small) bonus the shield gives you does not stand up against the sizeable and effective bonuses to TWF (for rogues, mostly) and THF.

"Fight and bring down anything that gets too close" sounds like offense to me, not defense. (edit) for better defense, take a reach weapon and trip everything that approaches within 20 feet.

Tower shields require yet another feat to use effectively, which is not worth it. Ten damage 80% of the time is far from impressive, actually.

I still think fighter/4 isn't worth it, because it'll cost you a Kensai level.

What is "Combat especialization", by the way?

So is it ok? Well, it's you who's going to play it. But it seems that you've ignored everything everybody told you in this thread, and simply stuck with the plan you had to begin with. Which is perfectly fine, but it begs the question why, then, you are asking us.

Leon
2007-11-06, 06:00 AM
Sword and Board works better when you are hitting things with the board aswell as the sword.
PHB2 has a nice line of Shield Boosting Feats

Edit:Oh, Tower shield.

In reply to above - if he has any level in Fighter, he has Tower Shield Proficancy

Leon
2007-11-06, 07:56 AM
It is ok?

Do you like it?
if so, then it is ok
if not, then change it to suit your tastes

Take our advice as a guide but not the 100% way to go

Fawsto
2007-11-06, 10:30 AM
What is "Combat especialization", by the way?

Sorry, It is the perfect translation from the name of the feat in Portuguese to English, my bad :smallbiggrin: I mean Combat Expertise hehe


I'm not sure what a Kensai does

It is quite a "Paladin PrC". It is a Kind of "Spell Empowred" Warrior. He makes a Oath of service of any nature, but it must be important, being it the limit to the Kensai powers. Class features include Enhacing magicaly a weapon with a bonus equal to your kensai level (permanently), obtaining good uses for the Concentration skill (Like gaining +4 strg bonus o.O). And a few other interesting stuff that I won't list since somehow I have a feeling taht I should not explain an entire PrC here :smalleek:


Ten damage 80% of the time is far from impressive, actually

Don't worry, I am dealing a lot more damage than 2 hander of the group :smallbiggrin: And he deals like (on 3rd level, like my) 2d6 + 4 without ading his power attack. I managed it, it is quite good.

The tower Shield is the best defense i've got in the first levels, you know, total cover is good when there is a troop of archers pinning you down, hehe. Also It was the Only way I could manage to have a 19 AC score in the beggining. (-1 dex, +6 armor + 4 shield).

You see, I don't like 2 handing a lot... Since I mostly don't use Dexterity Monkey characters. My best stats are down on Str (16), Cha (14) and Int (14). I also don't like the "Fighters are Dumb" stuff. The other nice stats are on Wis (13), because I want to cast a little and Con (13), cause I need the HP. The worst score is the 8, and I placed it right away on Dex.

If I would go straight Fighter till Kensai (possible) I would have place that 8 on Cha and a 14 on Dex, now I would be decent on 2 handing.

Btw, If I need to 2 hand for lots of damage, the Bastard Sword is just a little less than the Greatsword, I can deal almost the same damage.

Oh, yes, and I also Liked the Fist Of Raziel PrC. It is quite cool. Full Paladin + a few Extra Smitings are just crazy on that PrC!


So is it ok? Well, it's you who's going to play it. But it seems that you've ignored everything everybody told you in this thread, and simply stuck with the plan you had to begin with. Which is perfectly fine, but it begs the question why, then, you are asking us.

No, no. You got me wrong. I am taking the advice. I just can't do some of the stuff you guys are sugesting me. Like, I can't get rid of Fighter 3, I can't get rid of UEW: Bastard, And I must take the weapon focus to go to the PrC.

I am just more than glad to know that the Knockdown and the Divine Might are good choices. And I am storing this info for future charcters. For example, I am going Fist of Raziel on another friends campaing, and I will try the Tripper (full) in another's. I am very happy with all the info, indeed :smallbiggrin:

Person_Man
2007-11-06, 11:53 AM
Power Attack: Good

Exotic Weapon: Bad

Combat Expertise + Improved Trip + Knockdown: This is a huge feat investment. And its only a good one if you use it correctly. You need a high Dex, Combat Reflexes, and a reach weapon. That way you'll add defense (stopping enemies from getting to you before they attack) and offense (extra attacks every round when your enemies try and get up. Otherwise, its a waste.

Weapon Focus: Very Bad. I understand its a pre-req for Kensai. It's still sucks.

Kensai: From an optimization perspective, this is a waste unless you're using an Unarmed Strike build, a natural weapon build, or an archer build. Otherwise, its just not worth it in most cases. If you have access to Book of Exalted Cheese, then consider Ancestral Relic instead.

I would also suggest Leadership - best feat in the game.

Sir Iguejo
2007-11-06, 12:05 PM
No, no. You got me wrong. I am taking the advice. I just can't do some of the stuff you guys are sugesting me. Like, I can't get rid of Fighter 3, I can't get rid of UEW: Bastard, And I must take the weapon focus to go to the PrC.


he meant EWP:Bastard

another mistaken portuguese-english translation:smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

Fawsto
2007-11-06, 09:41 PM
Hmm...I know this build was not optimizated. Since I am trying to bring 3 or 4 ideas into the same character, but that's ok.. :smalltongue:

I plan on having a decent/good damage ratio with my "Enhanced by Kensai Levels Bastard sword".

I won't do it a lot, but if I cast Power Surge (Concentratio. This skill I've been maxing even being a warrior... Tough time.), Divine Might, use the wepon enhacements, Power Attack, Smite Evil and my own str. I will certainly achieve 10 HP and Knock someone down, being able to attack him again with the still effects of Power Surge, Power attack, Weapon Enhacements and Divine Might. When the poor bastard try to stand againg he will take more pain...

If I can calculate it, is something like this:

.26 str score due to Itens and Power Surge, meaning + 8
.+5 for the Power Attack
.+10 for the Smite
.20 Cha score due to itens, meaning +5 Divine Might Damage
.1d10 + 1d6 + 3 due to magic weapon.

Making some calculations... It is something like 1d10 + 1d6 + 31 damage, followed by 1d10 + 1d6 + 21 damage and another 1d10 + 1d6 + 21 when the guy trys to get up. I mean, this isn't as much as I could get with a optimized build, but it is still good, or not?

I Know, a charging leaping shocktrooper would do this easily in one hit, but he also must run and lose some AC points for doing so (I know Robilar's Gambit stuff, so I am possibly wrong), while I am doing that with my Full AC and standing still. As stated I am not as good fighting many foes...

But I take my Full attacks to keep them on the ground where I can hit them with ease.

Hmmm... Kensai for Archers... Written. Another one for my list. Thank ya guys!

Oh, if you guys want to add some more stuff, feel free. I think I just finished making up my mind. As a word of thank, I appreciated the options given to me, I shall use them as soon as possible. Hope to see ya around.

Fawsto