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View Full Version : Speculation TCoE Telekinetic: lesson learned or a nod?



Avigor
2020-12-11, 12:30 AM
I seem to remember hearing once that one or more of the psion powers in D&D 4e were being abused by some to move party members around by having the part members voluntarily fail saves, despite the RAW didn't allow voluntary fails (I wanna say Living Missile to throw the tank into the enemy more or less?).

Could Telekinetic in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything be worded to allow voluntary save fails as either a case of acknowledging the desire for that and so deciding to just put it in the RAW this time, or as some sort of nod that someone remembered that tactic and wanted to support that kind of thinking outside of the box?

Or am I just reading too much into this?

And yes, I know a lot of people hate 4e and mentioning it can be seen by some as heresy. Myself, I think it should've been a video game, not a p&p, but whatevs.

Greywander
2020-12-11, 01:06 AM
Enlarge/Reduce seems to only require a save if the target is unwilling. Same with Levitate.

I'm not entirely sure what the RAW is, but it seems like we could extrapolate that a save isn't even required if the target is willing, which is just another way of saying that you can voluntarily fail a save. However, I don't know that this is an actual rule, just an extrapolation of several specific rules that appear to establish a pattern.

Honestly, I have a hard time seeing why you wouldn't allow a PC to willingly fail a save. I'm sure there's some potential for "abuse", but if you're using an "offensive" ability on your allies instead of your enemies, then I think there's been a mistake in the design of that ability. In such a case, it makes more sense to reframe that ability as a support ability that can also be used offensively. In other words, change your perspective on how the ability is meant to be used, rather than changing the ability itself, or adding houserules. Also, don't forget that enemies can use that and similar abilities the same way.

JackPhoenix
2020-12-11, 09:13 AM
Explicitly allowing to voluntarily fail a save confirms that you can't voluntarily fail a save otherwise.

ZRN
2020-12-11, 09:22 AM
Explicitly allowing to voluntarily fail a save confirms that you can't voluntarily fail a save otherwise.

For better or worse, it's not safe to assume that D&D 5e rules are written that way. Sometimes they'll include basically a reminder of the general-case rule just to keep things clear.

In this case I feel like you CAN voluntarily fail a save, or else Zone of Truth (for example) is just a really awkward spell. But per Jeremy Crawford's tweet (https://mobile.twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/708009718757720064) there's no explicit rule to that effect, so it's up to the DM.