If wizard or sorceror got a unique cantrip, what would it be?

[Sindal]

Hi yall,

So of the full casters, Sorceror and Wizard are the only ones that don't have a unique cantrip that only they can use (Not counting when bards take it)

This isn't to say sorcerors or wizard actually need one, give their pretty solid list of cantrips, but for the sake of fun and creativity:

•What do you think a unique cantrip for Sorceror or Wizard would be like, if they were ever made?

My ideas to throw in the pot are:

---Sorceror
Name: Spark
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 90 feet
Components: V S
Duration: Instantaneous
Sparks of elemental energy dance on your fingertips and race towards your target. You choose acid, cold, fire, lightning, poison, or thunder for the type of spark you create, and then make a ranged spell attack against the target. On a hit, the target takes 1d8 of the chosen element damage. This spell’s damage increases by 1d8 when you reach 5th level (2d8), 11th level (3d8), and 17th level (4d8).

Stefan, son of a farmer, still remembers the day he accidentally made it snow on the crops he was trying to water and the yelling of his father's voice in the evening. His father stopped yelling when Stefan froze their neighbor's prizewinning pumpkins before the next county fair.

Reasons: Spark, to me, seems like the first spell every sorcerer accidentally casts when they 'discover' their magical affinity. A chilly sneeze, an accidentally burnt page, an angry spit that becomes venomous, a song that cracks windows. It represents their potential and their mailability, it's rider being it's adaptability instead of applying a debuff or having superior damage.

---Wizard
Spell name: Lecture
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous
You launch into an extensive magical description of something you've learnt in your studies in an attempt to disrupt your target's focus. The target must make an Intelligence saving throw. On a failed save, the target takes 1d6 thunder damage, and it has disadvantage on the next magic attack roll it makes before the end of its next turn. The spell’s damage increases by 1d6 when you reach 5th level (2d6), 11th level (3d6), and 17th level (4d6).

-Or-
On a failed save, the target takes 1d6 thunder damage, and it has disadvantage on their next concentration check

"You know, Marcow's dumb shpeels about star constalations might be boring as sin, but hell if they didn't save us from that other fella trying to fry us!

Reason: I felt like the wizard needed a more studious cantrip, but magical. This cantrip is essentially 'frostbite', but designed for fighting other mages instead of martials. Feels like it could get a lot of funny moments around a table too, the same way Vicious Mockery gets some silly chuckles.

Lets see today's creativity =)

[Galithar]

I like Spark, but given the flexibility of Chromatic Orb I wouldn't let the damage die be so high.

I would do one of two things.
A. Remove the control over the type. Make it a weaker style chaos bolt. It deals damage with a type based on a separate die roll.
B. Lower the damage dealt to a d4 or maybe a d6 since it doesn't have an additional rider other than being able to avoid/target weaknesses and resistances.

I'm not sure how I would feel about Lecture. I'll think on it and get back to you if I come up with a suggestion.

[Sindal]

I like Spark, but given the flexibility of Chromatic Orb I wouldn't let the damage die be so high.

I would do one of two things.
A. Remove the control over the type. Make it a weaker style chaos bolt. It deals damage with a type based on a separate die roll.
B. Lower the damage dealt to a d4 or maybe a d6 since it doesn't have an additional rider other than being able to avoid/target weaknesses and resistances.

I'm not sure how I would feel about Lecture. I'll think on it and get back to you if I come up with a suggestion.

Thanks for the input!
You don't gotta think too hard though. It's just a fun idea I had and I'm not even remotely entertaining the thought of putting these into practice so I don't necessarily 'need' adjustments.
More just wanted to get the community idea of 'what they think would be a wizardy wizard cantrip'. Would love to hear what your 'wizard cantrip idea' would be.

But talking about Spark:
-I left it at 1d8 because Chromatic does triple of that, using a spell slot. Casting it will almost always be better than casting spark (until your a level 11 caster, in which cast you won't really be casting lvl 1 chromatic orbs no more). Not everyone is gonna take Chromatic too.
-It's also a cantrip that's similar to firebolt: It's draw is doing damage. Firebolt's 'rider' is that it does one of the most damage consistently 'and' can ignite stuff if applicable.
-I don't think elemental weaknesses are common place enough that Spark would really get out of hand and, I'd wager in most cases, the sorcerers who are casting Ray of Frost or Fire Bolt are getting more out of their cantrip riders than someone casting Spark is.
-While I know many people that do enjoy it, I don't personally prescribe to the 'lol random' nature that Sorcerers are pseudo tied to. You always have the option of making it random by rolling a dice if you want it to be random, but I didn't think it was really necessary for the base. A wild sorceror can add a roll in to spice up their theme while a more specialized damage Dragon sorcerer may enjoy leeway for when their preferred element isn't cutting it.
-Could always bring the list down to Fire, Cold, Lightning and Poison (roll 1d4 for type if you want that randomness element)

[KorvinStarmast]

I like Spark, but given the flexibility of Chromatic Orb I wouldn't let the damage die be so high.
Make it 1d6 as the cost for flexibility. Let the choice remain. Less fiddly to not have to roll another die for random.

As to Lecture; not seeing it.

[JackPhoenix]

I like Spark, and I think the d8 dice is fine. It gets around resistances, there aren't enough vulnerabilities to take advantage of and Eldritch Blast is still better (of course it is) even without being a warlock.

Not a fan of Lecture. Besides of how much of a lecture can you fit in <6 seconds, it fits Eloquence bard more than a wizard, IMO.

[Democratus]

There are already plenty of spells that do damage. There's little unique about doing HP to enemy targets.

Class-specific cantrips should make a statement about the theme of that class.

For example a dragon sorcerer could have a cantrip that imbues them with a moment of dragon majesty - maybe even a brief fear affect.

A wizard could have a cantrip that allows them to read the contents of a single page in a book, scroll, etc. even if it is closed and on the other side of the room. This cantrip was the bane of teachers, yet spread by students to nearly all magic universities. Eventually it was accepted and is one of the more common ways for a young mage to study.

[sayaijin]

A wizard could have a cantrip that allows them to read the contents of a single page in a book, scroll, etc. even if it is closed and on the other side of the room. This cantrip was the bane of teachers, yet spread by students to nearly all magic universities. Eventually it was accepted and is one of the more common ways for a young mage to study.

Oh I like this.

Peruse
Divination cantrip

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: S
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour

This spell is a minor magical trick that student spellcasters passed along covertly to cheat on exams. You can read the contents of any paper, even within a closed book, within range.

[Democratus]

Oh I like this.

Peruse
Divination cantrip

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: S
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour

This spell is a minor magical trick that student spellcasters passed along covertly to cheat on exams. You can read the contents of any paper, even within a closed book, within range.

I could even see some fun utility from it. Find an ancient library where the books are so old there are no titles on the covers. A few hours and you will know broadly what kind of subjects are covered.

Or you could see a massive pile of papers and determine if there are any magic scrolls within, maybe.

[sayaijin]

I could even see some fun utility from it. Find an ancient library where the books are so old there are no titles on the covers. A few hours and you will know broadly what kind of subjects are covered.

Or you could see a massive pile of papers and determine if there are any magic scrolls within, maybe.

I don't think every wizard player would take it (which is a good sign of balance), and it's extremely flavorful for the kind of player who would take it. The only gripe is that the DM would have to keep it in mind when creating their world.

[RogueJK]

So of the full casters, Sorceror and Wizard are the only ones that don't have a unique cantrip that only they can use (Not counting when bards take it)


Technically, a "one-class-only unique cantrip" (not counting stuff like Bard Magical Secrets or Tomelocks, or cantrip feats like Magic Initiate or Spell Sniper) would only be possible with an Artificer, Sorcerer, Bard, or Warlock cantrip. And so far, there are only two in existence that I can think of: Warlock's Eldritch Blast and Bard's Vicious Mockery.

Any Cleric cantrips are available for use by Divine Soul Sorcerers and Paladins with a specific fighting style, and a few subclasses like Celestial Warlocks get access to select Cleric cantrips. Same with Druid cantrips, any of which can be used by Nature Clerics and Rangers with a specific fighting style, and a few subclasses like Arcane Archer can get access to select Druid cantrips.

In addition, Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters get access to all Wizard cantrips. So even if you created a new Wizard-specific cantrip like Peruse or Lecture, an EK/AT could still choose it.

[sayaijin]

Okay, I have an idea for Sorcerer, but this could be broken. Let me know!

Channel
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: Self
Components: S
Duration: Concentration, up to one round
Prerequisite: at least one level in Sorcerer.

You channel your energy to create a more devastating attack. On the turn you cast Channel, you can only take the Dodge, Disengage, or Dash actions. On the following turn, you can use your bonus action to cast a spell with a casting time of one action.

[Democratus]

In addition, Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters get access to all Wizard cantrips. So even if you created a new Wizard-specific cantrip like Peruse or Lecture, an EK/AT could still choose it.

That's easy enough to resolve. Just make a specific rule for these cantrips forbidding them from being taken via a class feature of any other class.

Specific rule always trumps general rule. :smallsmile:

[Galithar]

Okay, I have an idea for Sorcerer, but this could be broken. Let me know!

Channel
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: Self
Components: S
Duration: Concentration, up to one round
Prerequisite: at least one level in Sorcerer.

You channel your energy to create a more devastating attack. On the turn you cast Channel, you can only take the Dodge, Disengage, or Dash actions. On the following turn, you can use your bonus action to cast a spell with a casting time of one action.

I like the idea. Maybe not as a cantrip but a class feature for a subclass.

Pro: You get to cast an action spell as a bonus action.

Con: You could have used your action to cast the same spell this turn with your action instead of limiting yourself to dodge, Disengage, or dash.


Best use of this would be with something like Spirit Guardians. Dodge every turn to stay tanky, but allow yourself to cast a spell every other turn. And it conflicts with the normal SG, Spiritual Weapon, and dodge combo so you aren't really increasing the power of the combo.

Edit: Just realized the concentration requirements prevent what i said above.


I think it would need some changes for sure. Honestly I find that it lacks much power. I might think of limiting the action to just NOT "Cast a Spell" and make it a subclass feature of a very Gish oriented sorcerer subclass. Use two bonus actions to cast an action spell X times per long rest? Sounds interesting to me. Thoughts?

[Amnestic]

Make it 1d6 as the cost for flexibility. Let the choice remain. Less fiddly to not have to roll another die for random.


I would never pick it if it were d6 damage with no rider. Choosing your damage type from that list is not impactful enough when sorcerers can get chill touch (necrotic, d8, rider), firebolt (fire, d10, no rider) or mind sliver (psychic, intsave(!), rider).

Thematically it's also weird that it's elemental focused when your sorcerous origin could have nothing to do with those - divine, clockwork or shadow souls for instance.

[sayaijin]

I like the idea. Maybe not as a cantrip but a class feature for a subclass.

Pro: You get to cast an action spell as a bonus action.

Con: You could have used your action to cast the same spell this turn with your action instead of limiting yourself to dodge, Disengage, or dash.


Best use of this would be with something like Spirit Guardians. Dodge every turn to stay tanky, but allow yourself to cast a spell every other turn. And it conflicts with the normal SG, Spiritual Weapon, and dodge combo so you aren't really increasing the power of the combo.

Edit: Just realized the concentration requirements prevent what i said above.


I think it would need some changes for sure. Honestly I find that it lacks much power. I might think of limiting the action to just NOT "Cast a Spell" and make it a subclass feature of a very Gish oriented sorcerer subclass. Use two bonus actions to cast an action spell X times per long rest? Sounds interesting to me. Thoughts?

So admittedly, this was my attempt to play off of sorcerers' ability to alter normal spellcasting timing - like they do with metamagic. I obviously take a lot of inspiration from true strike for this cantrip, but I wanted it to be a little stronger. I think we can discuss sorcerer subclass ideas, but the purpose of this thread is wizard-specific and sorcerer-specific cantrips.

As for usage of this cantrip, I would say it's slightly less niche than true strike. If you don't have line of sight or if your allies are in the AOE, this is a chance for the Sorcerer to roleplay their "Everyone get back!" moment and then unleash a double fireball on the horde.

[Galithar]

So admittedly, this was my attempt to play off of sorcerers' ability to alter normal spellcasting timing - like they do with metamagic. I obviously take a lot of inspiration from true strike for this cantrip, but I wanted it to be a little stronger. I think we can discuss sorcerer subclass ideas, but the purpose of this thread is wizard-specific and sorcerer-specific cantrips.

As for usage of this cantrip, I would say it's slightly less niche than true strike. If you don't have line of sight or if your allies are in the AOE, this is a chance for the Sorcerer to roleplay their "Everyone get back!" moment and then unleash a double fireball on the horde.

Emphasis mine. So you would see this as breaking the rule if you cast a spell as a bonus action the only spell you can cast with your action is a cantrip with a casting time of one action?

[KorvinStarmast]

I like your idea on spark.

I do not think, all said and done, that Wizard's ought to get a unique cantrip. They are arcane generalists. :smallsmile:

[Sindal]

I would never pick it if it were d6 damage with no rider. Choosing your damage type from that list is not impactful enough when sorcerers can get chill touch (necrotic, d8, rider), firebolt (fire, d10, no rider) or mind sliver (psychic, intsave(!), rider).

Thematically it's also weird that it's elemental focused when your sorcerous origin could have nothing to do with those - divine, clockwork or shadow souls for instance.

I wouldn't complain if Spark could access almost every damage type, but kept the list small since it's 'just' a cantrip. There's also still ways to keep them in theme as the first sort of magic they create.

Divine could work on fire, since 'radiant' damage is sorta similar in theme (Light clerics say hi)
Shadow could work on cold, since they are often described to be...well, sorta half dead. Stefan was a shadow sorc, in my head :smallsmile:
Storm goes to Lightning cause duh.
I'm not sure what element magic clocks have, you got me there x3 It'd line up with thunder damage probably, cause ding dong ding dong.

[noob]

For wizard:
Conjure quill
1 action
Create a quill lasting 3 hours which provides its own ink.
For sorcerer:
Blood power
1 action
You turn a pint worth of your blood into acid for 1 round. The damage of the acid scales at the rate of a low end cantrip.

[JNAProductions]

I could see Magic Missile as a Wizard Cantrip.

Magic Missile
Evocation Cantrip

Casting Time 1 Action
Range 120'
Components Verbal, Somatic
Duration Instantaneous
You create a glowing dart of magic force. The dart immediately strikes a creature of your choice within range, dealing 1d4 force damage. At level five, you create two darts. At level eleven, three; and at level seventeen, four. All darts strike simultaneously, and you may direct the darts to one or multiple targets.

Firebolt is pure damage of a poor type. With an average of 65% hit rate, it does 3.575 fire damage per tier.

Magic Missile has three advantages over it-auto hitting, multiple target potential, and force damage. Taken together, I think, they are worth two decreases in die size, for 1d6 damage. But the auto hit throws that off-if it had the normal 65% hit rate, it'd do 2.275 damage. But with auto hits, it'd do 3.5 at 1d6 per tier, barely below a Firebolt. Hence the d4.

[sayaijin]

Emphasis mine. So you would see this as breaking the rule if you cast a spell as a bonus action the only spell you can cast with your action is a cantrip with a casting time of one action?

So quickened spell already exists for the Sorcerer. Channel would just be one more opportunity to do what sorcerers do - disrupt the normal casting limitations.

I mention double fireball, but it's hardly worth it. Unless it's one of the situations I mentioned (line of sight, AOE), you'd be better off just casting fireball on both turns normally. The real power from this cantrip is using two spells that actually combo with each other. Like the reverse gravity / prismatic wall combo. I forget if both of those are on the sorcerer's list though.

[Mr Adventurer]

How about this for Sorcerer?

Blood Magic
Casting time: bonus action
Effect: The next spell you cast this turn is cast as though from a higher level slot. Determine the level slot you want the spell to be cast from, and how much of a level increase you want to get from Blood Magic. When you cast the Blood Magic spell, expend a number of Hit Dice equal to the increase you want to achieve, add them together, and lose that many hit points. This spell can be cast on the same turn as a spell from a spell slot that has a casting time of one action.



The intended chain of events goes:

Your turn
Bonus: cast Blood Magic
-- decide how many spell slot levels you want to add to your next casting, spend and roll Hit Dice, take damage
Action: cast a spell.
-- decide if you are upcasting using slots or just the boost from Blood Magic, if also spell slots then decide what combo you are using
-- resolve the spellcasting

My wording definitely could use improvement - not least because I'm struggling with how vague the language around spell slots and upcasting is to begin with.

Edit: after ten minutes thought, I now prefer the below effect:

Choose the spell slot level you want your next spell to be cast from. Expend that many Hit Dice, roll them, and take that much damage. The spell is cast as though from a slot of that level. This cannot be combined with casting a spell from a higher level slot as you normally would. You still expend a spell slot of that spell's normal level when you cast it.



This dramatically increases the cost.

[Galithar]

So quickened spell already exists for the Sorcerer. Channel would just be one more opportunity to do what sorcerers do - disrupt the normal casting limitations.

I mention double fireball, but it's hardly worth it. Unless it's one of the situations I mentioned (line of sight, AOE), you'd be better off just casting fireball on both turns normally. The real power from this cantrip is using two spells that actually combo with each other. Like the reverse gravity / prismatic wall combo. I forget if both of those are on the sorcerer's list though.

Even quickened spell metamagic doesn't bypass the rule about casting bonus action spells. It just changes an action spell into a bonus action spell. You still can't cast an action spell the same turn, except for a cantrip.

All this would do is turn a one action spell into a bonus action spell, if you maintain concentration and don't do anything meaningful with your action this turn. Which is why my thought was to open the action restrictions up and make it appeal to a gish build.


I could see Magic Missile as a Wizard Cantrip.

Magic Missile
Evocation Cantrip

Casting Time 1 Action
Range 120'
Components Verbal, Somatic
Duration Instantaneous
You create a glowing dart of magic force. The dart immediately strikes a creature of your choice within range, dealing 1d4 force damage. At level five, you create two darts. At level eleven, three; and at level seventeen, four. All darts strike simultaneously, and you may direct the darts to one or multiple targets.

Firebolt is pure damage of a poor type. With an average of 65% hit rate, it does 3.575 fire damage per tier.

Magic Missile has three advantages over it-auto hitting, multiple target potential, and force damage. Taken together, I think, they are worth two decreases in die size, for 1d6 damage. But the auto hit throws that off-if it had the normal 65% hit rate, it'd do 2.275 damage. But with auto hits, it'd do 3.5 at 1d6 per tier, barely below a Firebolt. Hence the d4.

I've always thought that Magic Missle would be an appropriate cantrip. I never liked the spell as a leveled one. It just strikes me as the simple iconic spell that every apprentice wizard should master. Which is basically the definition of a cantrip lol

[sayaijin]

How about this for Sorcerer?

Blood Magic
Casting time: bonus action
Effect: The next spell you cast this turn is cast as though from a higher level slot. Determine the level slot you want the spell to be cast from, and how much of a level increase you want to get from Blood Magic. When you cast the Blood Magic spell, expend a number of Hit Dice equal to the increase you want to achieve, add them together, and lose that many hit points. This spell can be cast on the same turn as a spell from a spell slot that has a casting time of one action.



The intended chain of events goes:

Your turn
Bonus: cast Blood Magic
-- decide how many spell slot levels you want to add to your next casting, spend and roll Hit Dice, take damage
Action: cast a spell.
-- decide if you are upcasting using slots or just the boost from Blood Magic, if also spell slots then decide what combo you are using
-- resolve the spellcasting

My wording definitely could use improvement - not least because I'm struggling with how vague the language around spell slots and upcasting is to begin with.

Edit: after ten minutes thought, I now prefer the below effect:

Choose the spell slot level you want your next spell to be cast from. Expend that many Hit Dice, roll them, and take that much damage. The spell is cast as though from a slot of that level. This cannot be combined with casting a spell from a higher level slot as you normally would. You still expend a spell slot of that spell's normal level when you cast it.



This dramatically increases the cost.

I really like the idea here. I wonder if it's too high a cost to spend HD and HP. Maybe just one or the other?

Blood Magic
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: Self
Components: V (Kameeee-hameeee...)
Duration: Instantaneous
Prerequisite: at least one level in Sorcerer.

You draw from your own life force to empower your next spell. You may roll a number of hit dice and lose life equal to the sum. The next spell you cast this turn is treated as if the spell slot you used to cast it was the actual spell slot plus the number of hit dice rolled.

[Damon_Tor]

I'd love to see a wizard specific cantrip that gives them some advantage in a counter-spell battle:


Analyze Magic
divination cantrip

Range: 120 feet
Casting Time: bonus action
Components: M (a monocle)
Duration: 1 round

Chose a creature you can see in range. If that creature starts to cast a spell before the start of your next turn, you learn the name of the spell and the level of the spell slot used to cast it, if any.

This would solve the "identifying a spell being cast requires a reaction" conundrum while giving wizards a plausible counterplay for subtle-casting sorcerers. It's not perfect, since you would be casting a spell as a bonus action and the limitations of doing so.

[Amnestic]

As a reminder for bonus action cantrips, if you cast it you're limited to using only a cantrip with your normal action too, which limits their options considerably.

I like the idea of Blood Magic but it feels like it'd be either better suited as a feat (if you want it caster agnostic) or either a base sorcerer ability or a specific subclass ability.

[sayaijin]

As a reminder for bonus action cantrips, if you cast it you're limited to using only a cantrip with your normal action too, which limits their options considerably.

I like the idea of Blood Magic but it feels like it'd be either better suited as a feat (if you want it caster agnostic) or either a base sorcerer ability or a specific subclass ability.

Have you ever found yourself homebrewing for so long that you forgot about an actual rule from the PHB?

For both Blood Magic and Channel, I'd use the "specific beats general".

[Vogie]

I do think that wizards should have a cantrip that is mastery- based. Sadly, the obvious "greater Prestidigitation" that one would think, that was given to artificers as the Magical Tinkering Feature. Lame.

They do have Spell Mastery in their kit already, allowing them to effectively "cantrip-ize" a 1st and 2nd level spell. However, they're both only available at level 18, which is SUPER DUMB. Ideally, at something like level 10 (or earlier), they get Spell Mastery for a 1st level spell, then Spell mastery for a second level spell at 15, then their Signature 3rd level spell at 20. That way, you can say that a wizard has studied their favorite spell for so long it's effortless for them - A war mage might be cantripizing Magic Missile, while a illusionist may have Silent Image, and a sneaky Enchanter may have Disguise Self as their "cantrip".


For sorcerers, I'd actually like for them to have a unique cantrip for each bloodline. I know that's a taller order, but one of the cool things about the sorcerer is each subclass completely redefines how to play the class.

Wild Magic Sorcs are all about abusing the hell out of Tides of Chaos, refreshing it as much as possible, while foiling their opponents' plans with Bend Luck
Shadow Sorcs like to hide in their giant ball of doom, acting as a 10-minute Blur that gives them advantage on most targets, and occasionally blinding them when they give their target a hug.
Storm Sorcerers like to bounce around the field, running in to use Heart of the Storm to turn their spells into AOE bombs, then flitter away with Tempestuous Step.
Clockwork Souls are the "nope" subclass, removing opponent's advantages and shielding your allies.
and so on.
Aberrant Mind Sorcs gain Mind Sliver, which is certainly a step in the right direction.

[loki_ragnarock]

From what I've seen of 5e design so far:

A unique sorcerer cantrip would have language explicitly prohibiting it being used with metamagic or class features that might synergize, and then also could only be cast as a bonus action.

The unique wizard cantrip would be something that would allow them to change one of their prepared spells for another spell, that can be cast as a bonus action but explicitly allows for the casting of a leveled spell with their primary action.

That seems about right.

[LudicSavant]

From what I've seen of 5e design so far:

A unique sorcerer cantrip would have language explicitly prohibiting it being used with metamagic or class features that might synergize, and then also could only be cast as a bonus action.

The unique wizard cantrip would be something that would allow them to change one of their prepared spells for another spell, that can be cast as a bonus action but explicitly allows for the casting of a leveled spell with their primary action.

That seems about right.

Okay, I laughed. :smallbiggrin:

[Mr Adventurer]

I really like the idea here. I wonder if it's too high a cost to spend HD and HP. Maybe just one or the other?

Blood Magic
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: Self
Components: V (Kameeee-hameeee...)
Duration: Instantaneous
Prerequisite: at least one level in Sorcerer.

You draw from your own life force to empower your next spell. You may roll a number of hit dice and lose life equal to the sum. The next spell you cast this turn is treated as if the spell slot you used to cast it was the actual spell slot plus the number of hit dice rolled.

Thanks!

Free upcasting seemed like a really powerful ability, so I wanted to give it a significant consequence. I even considered Exhaustion! There's a lot of room to finesse the quantity and effect from where I started, though - as the three suggestions across our two posts demonstrate!


As a reminder for bonus action cantrips, if you cast it you're limited to using only a cantrip with your normal action too, which limits their options considerably.

I like the idea of Blood Magic but it feels like it'd be either better suited as a feat (if you want it caster agnostic) or either a base sorcerer ability or a specific subclass ability.

I wrote specific verbiage into my first one for that. :)

I agree that it'd be better as a class feature. But that's essentially what an exclusive spell is anyway - as people have long said about Warlocks' Eldritch Blast.

[sayaijin]

Thanks!

Free upcasting seemed like a really powerful ability, so I wanted to give it a significant consequence. I even considered Exhaustion! There's a lot of room to finesse the quantity and effect from where I started, though - as the three suggestions across our two posts demonstrate!



I wrote specific verbiage into my first one for that. :)

I agree that it'd be better as a class feature. But that's essentially what an exclusive spell is anyway - as people have long said about Warlocks' Eldritch Blast.

All right, I threw together a Sorcerer subclass. It's obviously not balanced, but it's a start.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?623834-Blood-Mage-(Sorcerous-Origin)

[JackPhoenix]

They do have Spell Mastery in their kit already, allowing them to effectively "cantrip-ize" a 1st and 2nd level spell. However, they're both only available at level 18, which is SUPER DUMB. Ideally, at something like level 10 (or earlier), they get Spell Mastery for a 1st level spell, then Spell mastery for a second level spell at 15, then their Signature 3rd level spell at 20. That way, you can say that a wizard has studied their favorite spell for so long it's effortless for them - A war mage might be cantripizing Magic Missile, while a illusionist may have Silent Image, and a sneaky Enchanter may have Disguise Self as their "cantrip".

Then you realize everyone's favorite spell, regardless of subclass, is actually Shield or Absorb Elements, depending on what you expect to face in the future, because everyone needs survivability, and you can't ever have too many uses of those two.

[Kane0]

For Wiz, a cantrip that allows them to read or copy a page of text using an action.

For Sorc, a cantrip that makes them appear more impressive or imposing (like a counterpart to Friends), or a cantrip version of detect magic.

[Mr Adventurer]

All right, I threw together a Sorcerer subclass. It's obviously not balanced, but it's a start.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?623834-Blood-Mage-(Sorcerous-Origin)

Cool. I really think it should be something that every Origin can use, though - playing off the Sorcerer class description.

[Segev]

Warp Spell
Transmutation cantrip
Casting time: Reaction
Duration: instantaneous
Range: 30 ft.
When you see another creature within thirty feet cast a spell, you can cast this spell to channel your sorcerois power into it to warp its manifestation. Choose a metamagic you know. You pay it’s cost in sorcery points, and the spell you cast this as a reaction to is modified by that metamagic. The spell must be a legal target for the metamagic you choose.

[Witty Username]

Sorcerer
Evocation cantrip
Chaotic Discharge
casting time: 1 action
Range: Self(60ft radius)
Components None
Duration: Instantaneous
When you cast this spell one random creature other than you within the spells radius takes 1d8 damage unless it makes a successful Dexterity save, the damage type changes based on the roll of the damage dice in the following table. If the target rolls a 1 on their save the spell jumps to another random creature other than you within the spell's radius, making a new damage roll. At 5th level the spells damage increases by 1d8 and you may choose either die to determine the damage type of the effect. At 11th level and 17th the damage increases again by 1d8. Any one die can be chosen to determine the damage dealt to the target
1 Acid
2 Cold
3 Fire
4 Force
5 lightning
6 poison
7 psychic
8 thunder

Wizard
Conjuration cantrip
The Mightier Quill
Casting time: 1 action
Range: self
Components: V, S
Duration: 1 hour
In you open hand you create a magic quill. With this quill you may write on any surface with ink you provide or ink produced by the quill(no action required to produce ink). Any ink produced by the spell and writing made with ink produced by the spell disappears when the spell ends with the exception of anything written into a spellbook you own, which is permanent.

[ff7hero]

Sorcerer
Evocation cantrip
Chaotic Discharge
casting time: 1 action
Range: Self(60ft radius)
Components None
Duration: Instantaneous
When you cast this spell one random creature other than you within the spells radius takes 1d8 damage unless it makes a successful Dexterity save, the damage type changes based on the roll of the damage dice in the following table. If the target rolls a 1 on their save the spell jumps to another random creature other than you within the spell's radius, making a new damage roll. At 5th level the spells damage increases by 1d8 and you may choose either die to determine the damage type of the effect. At 11th level and 17th the damage increases again by 1d8. Any one die can be chosen to determine the damage dealt to the target
1 Acid
2 Cold
3 Fire
4 Force
5 lightning
6 poison
7 psychic
8 thunder


Please no. Chaos Bolt already takes too long to resolve and it costs a resource and lets you pick a target.

[Amnestic]

Warp Spell
Transmutation cantrip
Casting time: Reaction
Duration: instantaneous
Range: 30 ft.
When you see another creature within thirty feet cast a spell, you can cast this spell to channel your sorcerois power into it to warp its manifestation. Choose a metamagic you know. You pay it’s cost in sorcery points, and the spell you cast this as a reaction to is modified by that metamagic. The spell must be a legal target for the metamagic you choose.

There's probably a broken combo that can use this somehow but it's neat and encourages teamwork, so I like it a lot.

[Galithar]

There's probably a broken combo that can use this somehow but it's neat and encourages teamwork, so I like it a lot.

Without a restriction to friendly creatures you could careful metamagic an enemies spell.

[Segev]

Without a restriction to friendly creatures you could careful metamagic an enemies spell.
Add either a save or specify that the spell caster, not the sorcerer applying the metamagic, decides how the metamagic applies.

I think a save is better. I like the idea of twinning an enemy’s spell onto the enemy’s ally. Or using Careful to make the enemy fireball be less effective. So a save to negate having it affect the spell fits. “The caster of the affected spell can voluntarily fail this save.”

[Mr Adventurer]

Personally I would rather not introduce an additional use for Sorcery Points (expanding the applicability of metamagic to be offensive) without also increasing the number available.

[Segev]

Personally I would rather not introduce an additional use for Sorcery Points (expanding the applicability of metamagic to be offensive) without also increasing the number available.

I don't see that as a problem. It's a choice. It's not like the cantrip is useless if you never use it offensively; it's still letting you use metamagic on allies' spells.

[Mr Adventurer]

Either way, it's spreading an existing resource more thinly. FWIW I think Sorcery Points are a bit too scarce as it is anyway.

[Segev]

Either way, it's spreading an existing resource more thinly. FWIW I think Sorcery Points are a bit too scarce as it is anyway.

My argument here is that it's another option. It's like giving the sorcerer more spells known, in a sense. I don't think people complain about more spells known, saying that you should also give more spell slots per day to cover them, typically.

Though if you want to bolster SP count, that is its own discussion. There's at least one feat to give +2 of them.

[Witty Username]

I feel like sorcerer's should tie into the theme of innate magic, something that can just happen instead of an active choice, like a reaction casting time. Like a small scale hellish rebuke.

[Democratus]

Either way, it's spreading an existing resource more thinly. FWIW I think Sorcery Points are a bit too scarce as it is anyway.

Spreading resources thin is a feature, not a bug.

Difficult decisions make for better games.

[Mr Adventurer]

Spreading resources thin is a feature, not a bug.

Difficult decisions make for better games.

Both of these statements are way too broad for me to agree with them.

[KorvinStarmast]

or a cantrip version of detect magic. Here's a spitball on that idea: cantrip is an action, which provides a chance to discern the school of magic on an item. If an item has no school of magic, it is a miss, and if the 'attack roll' fails and the item is magical, no school is returned. But then we need to figure out how we don't just use it again and again out of combat ... since then it becomes detect magic for no spell slot. (Then again, DM is a ritual, so maybe no big deal?)

Kind of like a cantrip spell attack: it can miss.
Is that kind of where you are headed with this idea?

[Segev]

Spreading resources thin is a feature, not a bug.

Difficult decisions make for better games.


Both of these statements are way too broad for me to agree with them.

There's a push and pull here, I think. More resources means more flexibility. More ways to spend resources means more flexibility. The more your resources are limited, the more flexible you need to be in the moment with them to have meaningful flexibility.

DSP's Akasha and 3.5's Incarnum had limited known veils/soulmelds, and limited Essence to power them, and limited slots to fill with them. But it also was very flexible in how you could distribute your Essence between them, so you could shift them around to get different perks at different times, at the cost of some actions to do it. Spell slots in 5e can go to any spell (of the appropriate level or lower) you want, but need to be more abundant because they're expended when used. The flexibility is greater or lesser based on the class rules for determining what spells you have per day and how many slots you have of varying levels.

Metamagic probably feels a little too shallowly supported because the resource is extremely limited. Except it's less limited than it seems if you view spell slots as potential SP. It's far more limited if you view SP as just more spell slots.

If you have to fix your decisions for the day, or even for the short rest, there needs to be more resources available to cover more possibilities in order to avoid analysis paralysis, where you have to guess exactly what you need not only to have it on hand, but to ensure you haven't wasted a pick for that time period. If you have to spend them, then you need more or they fall subject to the "bigger spider" problem.

[Kane0]

-Snip-

Yeah basically. Detect Magic is a ritual and Warlocks can get an at-will version with an Invocation. Sorcs dont get ritual casting so I dont see an issue giving them Detect Magic as a cantrip, though maybe with some adjustments like concentration, shorter range and shorter duratiob.

[Democratus]

Both of these statements are way too broad for me to agree with them.

That's why I quoted you right above them.

Having too few sorcerer points to do everything you want is a good thing. It means you have to make tough decisions about where to spend those points.

Having more options with the same budget of points expands the choices while maintaining how meaningful the decision will be.

Good: "You have enough points to do two of these 3 things each day"

Better: "You have enough points to do two of these 10 things each day"

[Mr Adventurer]

That's why I quoted you right above them.

Having too few sorcerer points to do everything you want is a good thing. It means you have to make tough decisions about where to spend those points.

Having more options with the same budget of points expands the choices while maintaining how meaningful the decision will be.

Good: "You have enough points to do two of these 3 things each day"

Better: "You have enough points to do two of these 10 things each day"

I don't agree with that as a generality.

[Huschel]

I'm just here to say that I am intrigued by the Channel + Fireball combo that has come up in this thread.

[Segev]

I don't agree with that as a generality.

With the exception of potential increase to analysis paralysis, I fail to see how having more options is not inherently superior. Even if there's an obvious best option and the others are practically not worth having, it is technically slightly better to be able to choose the niche option if its niche ever does come up. At absolute worst, one option eclipses entirely one or more other options, and then it's neutral rather than bad to have the extra options. (For example, if you can spend your resource to turn an object any color you want, and have another option to spend the same resource to turn an object green, the latter is entirely subsumed in the former, but isn't BAD to have.)

[sayaijin]

I'm just here to say that I am intrigued by the Channel + Fireball combo that has come up in this thread.

Intrigued by the name because of the famous MtG combo, or intrigued by the idea of using two bonus actions on two separate turns to allow for two actions in one turn?

Theoretically, every Sorcerer would use it ad nauseum (another MtG pun) right before combat starts so they can nova harder the first turn of combat. I mainly like the idea of using two-turn combo spells (force cage+sickening radiance) on one turn.

[Vogie]

If you wanted a class-only cantrip for sorcerers in general, you could do something like a cantrip that:

gets better the more spell slots you've cast recently, giving you a reason to weave it in between leveled spells
gets better the more sorc points you've spent, encouraging you to use them up (and flex your spell slots for more later)
can change damage types, similar to either chaos bolt or absorb elements (cast fireball, then the cantrip deals fire damage, after you cast Sickening Radiance, the cantrip deals radiant damage)
is a reaction that interacts with other spells

[Huschel]

Intrigued by the name because of the famous MtG combo, or intrigued by the idea of using two bonus actions on two separate turns to allow for two actions in one turn?

Theoretically, every Sorcerer would use it ad nauseum (another MtG pun) right before combat starts so they can nova harder the first turn of combat. I mainly like the idea of using two-turn combo spells (force cage+sickening radiance) on one turn.Mostly the MtG thing, yes. :P

[Mr Adventurer]

With the exception of potential increase to analysis paralysis, I fail to see how having more options is not inherently superior. Even if there's an obvious best option and the others are practically not worth having, it is technically slightly better to be able to choose the niche option if its niche ever does come up. At absolute worst, one option eclipses entirely one or more other options, and then it's neutral rather than bad to have the extra options. (For example, if you can spend your resource to turn an object any color you want, and have another option to spend the same resource to turn an object green, the latter is entirely subsumed in the former, but isn't BAD to have.)

I don't see a reason to except analysis paralysis, and I do see a downside to wasted time and energy, and to pointless complexity.

[Sindal]

Just dipping in to offer some extra thoughts while reading the thread again.

-I don't, personally, like the idea of tying cantrips to class mechanics or resources. If I look at all the other 'class list unique' cantrips, the only one that naturally gains any traction with their class is warlock. But even without everything warlock can add to eldritch blast, eldritch blast is still arguably the strongest damage cantrip, doing fire bolt's damage with a better damage type and firing in a unique way. While it would make Sorcerors more unique. A cantrip should be able to stand up on it's own merits, and if things in your class happen to make it stronger then yay.
-Casting more spells to make your cantrip stronger would be interesting! Sort of like an arcane bolt that charges up. It also seems rather similar to eldritch blast in nature if that happens, though. It also encourages blowing your load on a class that, reasonably, has to make sure they have spells to use for an entire day which seems counter productive.
-Changing damage types I'm all on board with, hence my Spark suggestion.
-It would certainly be a unique and novel thing to have sorceror be the only caster with a reaction based cantrip. Neat! What the reaction would be, I unno...maybe a lie detector cantrip? A simulated, magical insight check that can fail?

•Truth
Your magic charismatic charm gives you an advantage on picking out untruths in conversation. Cast this cantrip as a reaction whenever you hear a phrase during a conversation with someone you are speaking with. The target makes a charisma saving throw. On a failed save, you automaticlly know whether the phrase is the truth or a lie.

It's important to note that 'insight' isn't supposed to be a direct lie detection skill. It gives you clues based on how they are acting, such as telling you they look nervous or shifty or their voice peaked when they said a specific word. This cantrip can fail, like any other skill check, and casting it repeatedly during a conversation would be a bit telling to your conversations "Why do you keep saying that funny word over and over?" but gives sorcerers a way to use their charisma instead of wisdom when sussing people out.

-Magic missile as a wizard cantrip makes so much sense, even though I would lose it when playing a sorceror. *begrudging grumbles of agreement*
-That 'peruse' wizard spell is certainly flavorful. Probably not useful for most adventurer life but there probably a decent handful of situations where needing to read something you can't reach would be pretty good. I dig it!

-On the detect magic spell lite version, perhaps this kinda version?
•Arcane Echo
As an action, you send out an experimental pulse of energy around you in a X radius (lets say 30ft). Regardless of whether something magical is in the area, make a spell attack roll. The size of the magical item determines it's AC, from tiny to gigantic. (or the AC is always the same, regardless of what the item is, for simplicity. It's not like magic items typically control how magical they are). On success, an echo of magic returns to you to inform you that something magical is in the radius, as well as the general direction

It's detect magic, but weaker. Detect magic is such an easy spell to pull off that this spell isn't all that necessary, especially for a wizard, but it's got a cool theme!

Really enjoying everyone's ideas :3

[Mr Adventurer]

I like that. How about:

Sorcerous Bolt
Range: 120 ft

When you cast this spell, choose one of the following effects:
- a blast of power streaks from you. Make an attack roll. On a hit, the target takes 1d10 force damage.
- you conjure an explosive blast within range. Creatures within 5 feet of a point you select must make a Dexterity saving throw or take 1d6 force damage.
Damage scales per normal cantrip.
When you apply metamagic to this spell, it doesn't cost you any Sorcery Points.

[Sindal]

I like that. How about:

Sorcerous Bolt
Range: 120 ft

When you cast this spell, choose one of the following effects:
- a blast of power streaks from you. Make an attack roll. On a hit, the target takes 1d10 force damage.
- you conjure an explosive blast within range. Creatures within 5 feet of a point you select must make a Dexterity saving throw or take 1d6 force damage.
Damage scales per normal cantrip.
When you apply metamagic to this spell, it doesn't cost you any Sorcery Points.

Seems a bit overloaded for a cantrip?
A High damage die, Damage aoe rider and free metamagic? (The ones that actually qualify)

This spell is Ice Knife, but barely weaker, as a cantrip. As a lvl 1 spell though I would have taken his over ice knife haha. The sorcerors answer to magic missile

[Mr Adventurer]

Seems a bit overloaded for a cantrip?
A High damage die, Damage aoe rider and free metamagic? (The ones that actually qualify)

This spell is Ice Knife, but barely weaker, as a cantrip. As a lvl 1 spell though I would have taken his over ice knife haha. The sorcerors answer to magic missile

Well downgrade the damage until it's on par with pre-Agonising Eldritch Blast, or whatever you like, but the principle is that it's free to Metamagic.

[sayaijin]

Mostly the MtG thing, yes. :P

I've just realised that the MtG card "Channel" is a lot like the Blood Magic in this thread. Nice!

[Mr Adventurer]

I like that. How about:

Sorcerous Bolt
Range: 120 ft

When you cast this spell, choose one of the following effects:
- a blast of power streaks from you. Make an attack roll. On a hit, the target takes 1d10 force damage.
- you conjure an explosive blast within range. Creatures within 5 feet of a point you select must make a Dexterity saving throw or take 1d6 force damage.
Damage scales per normal cantrip.
When you apply metamagic to this spell, it doesn't cost you any Sorcery Points.

More thought version:

Sorcerous Blast

Casting time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous

When you learn this spell, choose one of the damage types from the following list. The spell deals damage of that type: fire, cold, lightning, acid, poison, psychic, radiant, or necrotic.

When you cast this spell, choose either a bolt or a burst.

Blasting bolt: make a spell attack roll against one creature or object. The target takes 1d10 damage on a hit.

Blasting burst: choose a point within range. Creatures and objects within 5 feet of that point take 1d6 points of damage unless they pass a Dexterity saving throw.

When you apply Metamagic to this spell, it doesn't cost you any Sorcery Points.

This spell's damage increases by one die when you reach 5th level (2d10 or 2d6), 11th level (3d10 or 3d6), and 17th level (4d10 or 4d6).



Analysis: the spell can be flexible in its application which is good for Sorcerers with their limited spells known. It is of a damage type you want within reason, so works with Draconic boosts and other Origin thematics. It is the same single-target damage as Fire Bolt, but shorter range. Initial thoughts on metamagic: you can make its range equal to Fire Bolt. You can cast it without components. You can twin the bolts.

[JNAProductions]

More thought version:

Sorcerous Blast

Casting time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous

When you learn this spell, choose one of the damage types from the following list. The spell deals damage of that type: fire, cold, lightning, acid, poison, radiant, or necrotic.

When you cast this spell, choose either a bolt or a burst.

Blasting bolt: make a spell attack roll against one creature or object. The target takes 1d10 damage on a hit.

Blasting burst: choose a point within range. Creatures and objects within 5 feet of that point take 1d6 points of damage unless they pass a Dexterity saving throw.

When you apply Metamagic to this spell, it doesn't cost you any Sorcery Points.

This spell's damage increases by one die when you reach 5th level (2d10 or 2d6), 11th level (3d10 or 3d6), and 17th level (4d10 or 4d6).

The issue with this is that, with Quickened Spell, it doubles your at-will damage. Actually, with Quickened, Twinned, and two targets... Triples.

[sayaijin]

The issue with this is that, with Quickened Spell, it doubles your at-will damage. Actually, with Quickened, Twinned, and two targets... Triples.

Technically you can't twin something with two targets. That's why you can't twin GFB.

The point still stands though that while it's a fun idea, you can't use metamagic without using points.

[Mr Adventurer]

The issue with this is that, with Quickened Spell, it doubles your at-will damage. Actually, with Quickened, Twinned, and two targets... Triples.

Is it really that much of an issue?

And would reducing the damage die make you feel better about it? D8 bolts?

[JNAProductions]

Technically you can't twin something with two targets. That's why you can't twin GFB.

The point still stands though that while it's a fun idea, you can't use metamagic without using points.

Does that include a spell that has two modes-one single target, one with multiple targets?

I'm not sure on the RAW-but even just doubling at-will damage is pretty excessive.

[Kane0]

I like the idea of a charging attack, perhaps coupled with a ranged AoE which is missing in cantrips (except for acid splash i guess?)

Action to cast, 30’ range, 5’ radius 1d6 force damage with a dex save to avoid.
Each additional time you cast this cantrip within 1 minute the die size increases (d8s for second casting, d10s for third and capping at d12s for fourth).

Minor bag of rats problem but should be manageable at the table, especially if there are somatic and verbal components.

[Segev]

Power From Blood
Transmutation Cantrip
Components: V, S, M (a dagger, usually an athame)
Range: 60 feet
Duration: Instantaneous
With a stabbing gesture, you cut into the life force of the target with the ritual knife, and potentially glean some of it for yourself. The target must make a Charisma saving throw. If it fails, it must expend and roll one of its hit dice. It has a choice of either taking that much damage, or letting you gain that many sorcery points. The number of hit dice expended and rolled increases by 1 when you reach 5th level (2 HD), 11th level (3 HD), and 17th level (4 HD). If it does not have the requisite hit dice available to spend, roll them anyway; it takes the damage AND you gain the sorcery points.

[sayaijin]

Does that include a spell that has two modes-one single target, one with multiple targets?

I'm not sure on the RAW-but even just doubling at-will damage is pretty excessive.

Ya know, I can't think of any modal spells of that category off the top of my head.