Perception Checks during Combat.

[Tawmis]

Say a monster lures a party into a room full of other monsters (for the sake of examples and easy reading - a goblin leads a party into a cavern full of orcs) - the goblin (who was ahead of the party does stealth) - the orcs, signaled by the goblin know the adventurers are coming - so as soon as they're visible, fire arrows. Combat begins.

The party can clearly see the orcs - but they also know somewhere in this room is a goblin.

How do you treat the party doing Perception checks to see a stealth'ed figure in the room? Is it just a free action or do you make it use up a Bonus or full action, since they're actively trying to locate a hidden person?

I've always just done it as a free action; but just came to realize, this gives each party member an easy, "I look for the hidden goblin" check with no consequence to their bonus action or action.

And trying to spot someone who is clearly trying to remain hidden should take a moment to scan the entire room.

I admit, I am not immediately aware if there's already a rule for this type of situation.

Thoughts?

[Bilbron]

Say a monster lures a party into a room full of other monsters (for the sake of examples and easy reading - a goblin leads a party into a cavern full of orcs) - the goblin (who was ahead of the party does stealth) - the orcs, signaled by the goblin know the adventurers are coming - so as soon as they're visible, fire arrows. Combat begins.

The party can clearly see the orcs - but they also know somewhere in this room is a goblin.

How do you treat the party doing Perception checks to see a stealth'ed figure in the room? Is it just a free action or do you make it use up a Bonus or full action, since they're actively trying to locate a hidden person?

I've always just done it as a free action; but just came to realize, this gives each party member an easy, "I look for the hidden goblin" check with no consequence to their bonus action or action.

And trying to spot someone who is clearly trying to remain hidden should take a moment to scan the entire room.

I admit, I am not immediately aware if there's already a rule for this type of situation.

Thoughts?Passive Perception is free, and active Perception requires the Search Action.

[JackPhoenix]

Search is an action. It's listed in the PHB. The goblin would have to roll Stealth against the character's passive perception first, though, to be hidden in the first place.

[Tawmis]

Passive Perception is free, and active Perception requires the Search Action.

How would you rule the above? Would you consider that Passive or Active? Eyes just scanning the room for a hidden person.

(This is why I've never, as a DM, made much use of Passive Perception. I always just have my players make Perception checks - adds flavor, suspense, and let's them roll some dice).


Search is an action. It's listed in the PHB. The goblin would have to roll Stealth against the character's passive perception first, though, to be hidden in the first place.

Ah, disregard the question above - editing since I saw you replied same time I did.

I know that "Search" is an action - but I'd always applied that for searching a room, searching a wall, but makes sense - searching for a person should fall right under that as well.

As I said, I've never been a super big fan of the Passive Perception bit. I like allowing my players to roll, so they feel more involved.

But good to know.

Thank you!

[Bilbron]

How would you rule the above? Would you consider that Passive or Active? Eyes just scanning the room for a hidden person.

(This is why I've never, as a DM, made much use of Passive Perception. I always just have my players make Perception checks - adds flavor, suspense, and let's them roll some dice).Passive for sure. Passive is used when you don't use the Search action.

[Naanomi]

Inquisitive rogues get to search as a bonus action

[Tawmis]

Passive for sure. Passive is used when you don't use the Search action.

Good to know.

I will just modify my own game, to make their first look a Passive Perception (but still have them do a Perception check, because I like letting them roll for this stuff) - but not count it as an action.


Inquisitive rogues get to search as a bonus action

True! Was thinking more generally - in this case, a Paladin, then a cleric, and then another cleric were all looking for a stealth'ed figure during combat.

[PhoenixPhyre]

How would you rule the above? Would you consider that Passive or Active? Eyes just scanning the room for a hidden person.

(This is why I've never, as a DM, made much use of Passive Perception. I always just have my players make Perception checks - adds flavor, suspense, and let's them roll some dice).



Ah, disregard the question above - editing since I saw you replied same time I did.

I know that "Search" is an action - but I'd always applied that for searching a room, searching a wall, but makes sense - searching for a person should fall right under that as well.

As I said, I've never been a super big fan of the Passive Perception bit. I like allowing my players to roll, so they feel more involved.

But good to know.

Thank you!

For me, Passive Perception forms a floor under most circumstances. Whenever PP applies, you perceive anything below that threshold automatically, no check, no action. This avoids lots of things that don't make sense--the high Wisdom (Perception) person missing something obvious because they rolled a 1. Having to take the time for everyone to roll. I just narrate "As you walk into the room, Bob and Joe see A, Jane also sees B."

Taking the Search action represents a focused, dedicated thing. And can actually avoid a check as well--if you're searching under the desk for something that is non-obvious but any kind of active search would find (say a sticky note on the bottom of the desk, concealed from casual inspection from the top), you find it. Period. So with a Search action, you're looking in one particular place (or area) for that hidden Goblin. This lets you do better than your passive, at the cost of an action and a risk of not doing anything useful (rolling lower than your passive).

[Bilbron]

For me, Passive Perception forms a floor under most circumstances. Whenever PP applies, you perceive anything below that threshold automatically, no check, no action. This avoids lots of things that don't make sense--the high Wisdom (Perception) person missing something obvious because they rolled a 1. Having to take the time for everyone to roll. I just narrate "As you walk into the room, Bob and Joe see A, Jane also sees B."

Taking the Search action represents a focused, dedicated thing. And can actually avoid a check as well--if you're searching under the desk for something that is non-obvious but any kind of active search would find (say a sticky note on the bottom of the desk, concealed from casual inspection from the top), you find it. Period. So with a Search action, you're looking in one particular place (or area) for that hidden Goblin. This lets you do better than your passive, at the cost of an action and a risk of not doing anything useful (rolling lower than your passive).That's how my DM plays it, Passive Perception and Investigation are your floor as you automatically notice anything that's under that, so you only need to roll if it beats your Passive. I took my Passive Perception to 22 and Passive Investigation to 25 to burnish my Terms of Engagements abilities.

[Tanarii]

Passive checks including perception are used if:
- you're doing something repeatedly*
- its a secret check

Additionally Passive Perception is specifically used when the creature tries to hide from other creatures. The initial Stealth check it is compared to passive perception of all creatures that might observe it. No action on the part of observers is required. They just need to anle to potentially perceive the target (e.g not doing something like Mapping, Navigating, foraging, etc).

A rolled check (often mistakenly called active check) is used when there's one opportunity to do something, and its not being done repeatedly. Note that repeatedly in this case means different checks, not checks against the same thing repeatedly. The latter would use the DMG automatic successful instead, taking ten tines as long and succeeding if success is possible.

Combat has action you specifically use the search action if a creature has already successfully hidden, you know it's around somewhere, and you wanted to try and find it. Generally speaking being already hidden means it's already beaten your passive perception.

So in combat trying to find a hidden creature you know is around somewhere passive perception is effectively a floor for your check.

[SirDidymus]

(This is why I've never, as a DM, made much use of Passive Perception. I always just have my players make Perception checks - adds flavor, suspense, and let's them roll some dice).


I'm curious about this one. I'm in another game where the DM has never referenced passive perception, but we've made a lot of active checks. Assuming you play with feats, how do/would you handle Observant? It's a huge bonus to passive checks, but if you only make active checks, it loses most of its strength.

[Tawmis]

I'm curious about this one. I'm in another game where the DM has never referenced passive perception, but we've made a lot of active checks. Assuming you play with feats, how do/would you handle Observant? It's a huge bonus to passive checks, but if you only make active checks, it loses most of its strength.

I'd probably just move it to their (non Passive) Perception/Investigation checks.
So far, no one (I DM two active games currently, and a third on hold) - and no one has picked up this feat.

[PhoenixPhyre]

That's how my DM plays it, Passive Perception and Investigation are your floor as you automatically notice anything that's under that, so you only need to roll if it beats your Passive. I took my Passive Perception to 22 and Passive Investigation to 25 to burnish my Terms of Engagements abilities.

I should mention (but forgot to in that post) that there are circumstances where passive is not a floor. If you're distracted by other things (examples include navigating during travel) or similar circumstances apply, you're out of luck. No roll (without an action, which involves stopping the distraction), no passive. You just don't notice it. Which makes surprise while traveling much more likely.

I'd also apply that to things like
* doing a detailed examination of something in a room (ie examining runes or reading through papers)
* translating a passage
* picking a lock

or anything that seems like it would require your total attention. Things that only require most of your attention would impose disadvantage (-5) to your passive.

[Tawmis]

I should mention (but forgot to in that post) that there are circumstances where passive is not a floor. If you're distracted by other things (examples include navigating during travel) or similar circumstances apply, you're out of luck.


I assume you consider being in combat as distracted? :D

[PhoenixPhyre]

I assume you consider being in combat as distracted? :D

Nope. In combat you're explicitly hyper-aware, at least of people. By default, unless someone hides or is imperceptible for some other reason, you perceive them and their location.

I had a DM who denied passives for approaching enemies (that were not even really hiding--they were in plain sight!) and just dropped them on the board conveniently in range to mess us up. It sucked. Don't care what the rules say, it sucked and felt cheap.

[Tawmis]

Nope. In combat you're explicitly hyper-aware, at least of people. By default, unless someone hides or is imperceptible for some other reason, you perceive them and their location.

I had a DM who denied passives for approaching enemies (that were not even really hiding--they were in plain sight!) and just dropped them on the board conveniently in range to mess us up. It sucked. Don't care what the rules say, it sucked and felt cheap.

LOL! I am far more hyper aware when navigating (say, driving a car or sailing) compared to standing in the middle of a soccer field with eight five year olds running around me, trying to keep track of them. :D

[PhoenixPhyre]

LOL! I am far more hyper aware when navigating (say, driving a car or sailing) compared to standing in the middle of a soccer field with eight five year olds running around me, trying to keep track of them. :D

That's not how I interpret "navigating". Imagine, back in the old days, you were the one looking at the (paper) map and giving directions. Would you be as hyper aware then?

And as far as soccer fields, imagine those 8 five-year-olds had swords. Real, sharp ones. Would you be more aware then?

[Naanomi]

You can get your passive perception to pretty impressive levels... 37 (even higher with the right items).

If you decide to functionally cut passive perception, think about how this modified Observant feat, how it might devalue Inquisitive Rogue abilities (which are already considered niche), etc

[PattThe]

The way I rule it, if a subclass can do it as a bonus action and nowhere else is that action allowed as a bonus action, then it's *their thing* to be able to do that as a bonus action and anyone else doing so would be making that feature useless.

If everyone in your game is not playing an Inquisitive Rogue and you don't expect one to show up, sure. Make perception checks bonus actions for that campaign. But you gotta watch out for these things. 5e is all about "if it steps on what this subclass does" kind of rulings.

[Demonslayer666]

I would not have anyone roll. I would check passives to see if anyone automatically passed and let them know the goblin's location.

Taking the search action can result in you rolling or not, it is entirely up to the DM. They can use your passive skill anytime they want, even when you ask to roll.

I dislike it when the DM never uses the Passive check, and we waste way to much time going around the table again and again for seeing how well you rolled perception. and then the same thing happens every time: "those that passed, you all notice..."

I will call for perception checks when it matters greatly, like for surprise, or a serious trap.

[KorvinStarmast]

As I said, I've never been a super big fan of the Passive Perception bit. I like allowing my players to roll, so they feel more involved. Then have the player roll the goblin's stealth roll, but don't tell them what it is for. That's how I do it. This is a carry over from way back D&D days, when DMs would off load die rolls onto players and not tell them what it is for. It's a technique I learned, uh, 40 years ago? Keeps them interested, is sometimes a complete red herring, and lets the DM focus on narration and description while a player does something to advance the DMs decision.

Dice are RNG devices, not (all superstition aside) extensions of personal power. :smalltongue: