The Force User (Jedi/ Sith/ Kid in TLJ with Broom) Build [Archive]

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CMCC

2020-12-11, 04:28 PM

https://assets.sutori.com/user-uploads/image/1d6852fd-00f0-4fa5-9ed2-090cf4f4a908/1a18b7089a482fc112e2ca7738ee5b2c.jpeg

With TCE there have been a lot of posts about Jedi builds, Sith builds, specific Star Wars character builds and anything else of which you can think. Obviously the Psi Warrior is a big part of that. But over the years there have been plenty “Jedi” builds of varying degrees of accuracy/ effectiveness.

Nothing has quite satisfied my desire for a flexible build that fully encompasses (or comes as reasonably close as possible) to the full array of “force user” powers.

So alright. Enough of the preamble. Let’s get to it.

What does a Force User build have to do? It needs to be able to use melee weapons reasonably well.
It needs to use the force “magic” (we’ll get into an expansive list of actual powers later). And finally, and the biggest missing piece of any builds I see, it should have some tie to that sci-fi world (i.e. droids, blasters, technology). Now this “guide” is going to present a framework to build the type of force user you want. Some people may want a heavy magic user that forgoes the use of weapons – and you will be able to do that by adjusting the levels in the classes you take.

So what are we not going to do? We’re not going to be Monks. We’re not going to be Paladins. And we’re not going to be sorcerers.

MONK

Yes, monks have a heavy Eastern influence. Yes, monks use Ki, a derivative of ch’i, and force users use the Force… a derivative of ch’i. Great, right? Not so much. Unfortunately, ki doesn’t mechanically match the force – really at all.

Unarmored defense is perfect for a jedi, though right?! Well, what if you want to be a Sith. Darth Vader is literally wearing samurai armor. And plenty of Jedi have worn amor in the past. We will need to have the ability to wear armor.

Deflect missiles. Perfect for a force user. Yeah it’s fine. But there are plenty of abilities in D&D that can mechanically match or outperform this ability. This ability is better suited for a more traditional martial arts storytelling where you’re actually catching arrows, not blocking blaster bolts.

PALADIN

The Paladin seems to fit. It’s a melee combatant that can cast spells. There is a loose religious connection. An oath to a cause. That’s a Jedi or even a sith - both have strict codes. Hey, they even have healing hands and some healing spells. But, unfortunately, the spells don’t really duplicate force abilities beyond that and divine smites don’t have a great parallel among force users (although it is possible to flavor it as a stronger attack via aligning with the force - but it’s a stretch).

THE BUILD
Now that we’ve established what we won’t do. What is it that we will do? We’re going to focus on a different class to fulfill the basic requirements of this archetype.

https://cdn.onebauer.media/one/media/5ddc/ffc7/0a4e/c494/e8f7/62f2/star-wars-rise-skywalker-kylo-rey.jpg?quality=50&width=1800&ratio=16-9&resizeStyle=aspectfill&format=jpg

For martial capabilities we will take fighter. The Psi Warrior is the obvious choice here, but you could potentially even make battlemaster work if you flavor some of the maneuvers as telekinesis instead of skillful swordplay.

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/UhQAAOSwhOVXfcKO/s-l400.jpg

For the vast majority of our force powers we’re going to take wizard. You’ve heard it before: Star Wars is a franchise about space wizards. So we’re going to lean into that. Also it works mechanically and thematically. Both Jedi and sith have to study. A lot. And the wizard spell list allows for a near perfect match of force powers.

https://nerdreactor.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/star-wars-imax-thumb-rey-bb-8.jpg

And finally, the piece that brings this entire build together both thematically AND mechanically is....

The Artificer.

Yup. We’re going to take at least 1 level of artificer but preferably 3 for battle smith. This gives us INT for our weapon attacks making us much more SAD than before. It gives some force powers that are missing from the wizard spell list (cure wounds). It gives us tinkering skills that are so common among Star Wars characters (Luke, Anakin, Rey). It gives us access to a “blaster” in the form of a “repeating shot” hand crossbow infusion. And best of all it gives us a MF’ing droid sidekick. For free. That helps us in battle and that we can easily fix. This realization was everything to me. I love it. Now, if you want to avoid battle smith, with tashas you can make a homunculus at 3, take armorer, and re-flavor the gauntlets as a light saber.

So how many levels do we take? This depends completely on what powers you want.

Let’s assume we want a droid and SAD. We need 3 levels in artificer to get Battlesmith. Because of this we can’t hit the capstone for Psi Warrior, which I think is great. Telekinesis up to 12 times a day wirh a bonus action attack is fun as hell. But it’s not to be with a droid.

So we need 9 levels in wizard. Minimum.

We’re also going to want a min of 3 levels in fighter for Psi Warrior. That leaves 5 levels to play with.

Battlesmith 3/ Psi warrior 3/ wizard 14
Battlesmith 3/ Psi Warrior 7/ wizard 10
Battlesmith 3/ Psi Warrior 8/ wizard 9

If the wizard subclass level 10 ability is worse than the ASI/ feat you want then you go with the 3/8/9 split. Otherwise forgo the fighter 8 and get wizard 10.

But which wizard subclass will we take? Honestly, most can work here because they have access to all the wizard spells, but some work better than others. The three primary contenders here are Bladesinger, War Magic, and Abjurer.

Before we decide on a subclass, let’s dive into The Force abilities and a non-exhaustive list of their mechanical equivalents in D&D 5e.

THE FORCE

The list of canon force abilities is LONG. Real long. Because of this (and my own personal taste) I’ve decided to limit Force abilities to only those shown or mentioned in the live action movies. If we learn any additional powers from the Mandalorian, I’d be happy to include that here as well. I’m less interested in the animated shows/movies and the books. It’s too much and the force powers fall into the trap of “whatever works for the story the power can do”. I don’t love it.

After digging through the various wikis (or wookies), I eliminated all the force powers that don’t meet the above criteria and I come up with:

*Note I don’t plan on explaining each ability. A quick google search will take you to a wiki with a more detailed breakdown of the power.

https://serving.photos.photobox.com/43081334b0f3fedd7e445056154642be4a11047a36b8ca7abc 5046cf53d41d5abd92bba9.jpg

I'll try to eventually add a google sheet for this - but I was having some formatting issues from excel. This list is non-exhaustive, and if there are other abilities/spells that match well with the force abilities listed, please feel free to post them.

It becomes clear, that with the three classes listed, there is enough flexibility to make just about any type of force user you desire. You can even choose to eliminate a class if you decide. The sci-fi feel isn't working for you? Cut artificer and go fighter/wizard. You like the droids and blasters, but don't want to be a light saber user (why?!) then cut fighter and go artificer/wizard. I would, however, argue that going straight through any of these classes, probably doesn't encompass enough of the actual force abilities to justify a non-multiclass approach.

WIZARD

A look at the wizard subclasses that work. To be completely honest, any wizard subclass can work, but there are three standouts and a fourth that works reasonably well:

BLADESINGING

The go to subclass for these builds. A fighting wizard, with an awesome level 6 ability. The bladesong itself feels a bit like turning on a lightsaber before battle. Song of Defense can be reflavored as a reducing the speed of an incoming attack. Song of Victory is just an awesome feature that gives your attacks a little more oomph. The only thing here is that you should only take bladesinger if you plan on taking no more than 3 levels in both artificer and fighter. A 3/3/14 split gives you a nice little capstone with Song of Victory that is likely better than any ASI you take.

WAR MAGIC

My personal favorite for this type of build. With no extra attack, you’re free to take either artificer or fighter past level 5 for all the goodies available. Arcane Deflection is a force power. No flavor needed. It also happens to be great for builds like this. Tactical Wit is also great both mechanically and thematically. Our connection to the force allows us to get the drop on less force sensitive folks. Given our INT SAD from Battle Smith, we won’t invest a ton into Dex, so adding INT to initiative to make us even more SAD is perfect. Beyond level 2, I don’t love the subclass features.

GRAVITURGY

For anyone who wants to really lean into the telekinesis aspect of the force, this is the subclass for you. Every single ability (Adjust Density, Gravity Well (!), Violent Attraction, Event Horizon) has a telekinetic application. You lose out on features that help in melee, but you gain a ton in terms of moving enemies and allies.

ABJURATION

With Arcane Ward, Projected Ward, and even Spell Resistance, you will lean into the force’s defensive advantages. Unfortunately, the Wards don’t strongly mimic any force abilities in the same way that Arcane Deflection does, but if you’re set on playing an abjuration wizard it can work with some heavy reflavoring.

A note about the SCAG cantrips.

This build could easily not get its second attack until level 12 if you progress Artificer 3 > Fighter 3 > Bladesinger 6. If you decide to progress in this way, then a SCAG cantrip is absolutely mandatory if you want to melee. Even the more common progression of Artificer 3 > Fighter 5, will not get extra attack until level 8. Once again, you’re going to need a SCAG cantrip for levels 5-7 if you want to stay competitive.

Fortunately, I think both can work thematically here. Green flame blade is a no brainer for me. You’re literally carrying around a green sword that burns ****. Sound familiar?
https://img1.looper.com/img/gallery/what-happened-to-lukes-green-lightsaber/intro-1578070445.jpg
And with your telekinesis ability you can move enemies next to each other as a bonus action. How often do you see this: (X 0 X); and you think to yourself, if only they were: (XX) I could use GFB to get the rider damage. Now you can just shuffle an enemy closer as a BA and hit with your GFB.

Booming blade works – especially if the enemies choose not to move. Just flavor it that you’re holding them in place with the force and for them to move they must “pull through the force” damaging themselves in the process. Not bad. But I prefer GFB for the green light saber flavor.

These will keep you competitive until you get that extra attack.

While we're on the subject of lightsabers, there are a few viable options. The most obvious is the Sunblade - which is the D&D lightsaber. At lower levels a Moon-Touched longsword has some flavor that can work with GFB. Shadow Blade certainly has some lightsaber feels even if it is just a magic sword made of gloom. And finally, if you want to take 6 levels in artificer there is the radiant weapon infusion, which has a nice lightsaber flavor to it. I even picture the infusion itself as a kyber crystal. You could make that work as a 6/3/11 multiclass.

Below is a sample DAMAGE ANALYSIS based on AC 15 and the baseline of Warlock + Agonizing Blast + Max CHA. You can see level 1-2 is tough, but this build (Art3 > Fighter 5 > Wiz3 > Fighter 7 > Wiz10) quickly catches on after level 3 and for the most part stays above the baseline. I used GFB, Shadow Blade, Haste, and eventually Spirit Shroud or Animate Objects.

https://cdn3.bbcode0.com/uploads/2020/12/15/0e062ef7895f7203262621fcc85ddd3e-full.png

I will add to this post as needed.

May the force...

EDIT: Not sure if anyone noticed but FORCE GHOST, FORCE SENSE, and midi chlorine MANIPULATION don’t have spell equivalents.

If anyone has ideas, I’d love to hear it.

BamBam

2020-12-11, 05:13 PM

CMCC

2020-12-11, 05:57 PM

BamBam

2020-12-11, 06:20 PM

This reminds me, I’m going to add a wizard subclass review as well.

Fighter does add slightly more telekinetic power at a lower level and certainly some melee punch (fighting style, extra attack, more HP).

Fighter 2 is certainly reasonable.

A sorcadin also brings things to the table. A jedi mind trick is basically a subtle suggestion. Jedis don't look like they are doing magic.

My Jedi build at the moment is a Custom Lineage Dvine Soul Sorceror 2-3/ Monk 0-3/ Divination Wizard X with the Metamagic and Lucky feat. The Custom Lineage represents the midichlorians that runs in the genes. According to the source material, the Force is inherited. Monk allows you to wield a staff or longsword off of Dexterity. Metamagic gets you the Mind Trick. Divination makes you unstoppable when the cosmic forces align just right.

Unoriginal

2020-12-11, 06:30 PM

Not to toot my own horn, but here is what I wrote on the subject the other day:

This reflection started out as me asking myself how would Darth Maul be best represented as a 5e PC. Here are my musings, hoping you will find them of interest.

Anger Leads to Hate. And Hate Leads to Suffering.

Barbarian isn't the easiest option for multiclassing. Between the Rage restricting spellcasting, the heavy stat dependency, and the relative lack of synergy between the Barbarian's perks and the ones granted by most other classes, it is difficult to come up with a multiclass including Barbarian (either as primary or as secondary) where the investment doesn't feel quite costly for the results.

Enter the Psi Warrior.

Quicker, Easier, More Seductive

The Psi Warrior has several advantages over other options for multiclassing with Barbarian:

- Shared stat requirement for multiclassing.

- Number of capacity uses/long rest dependent on proficiency modifier, not class level.

- Capacities synergize well with the Barbarian's roles (even at 3rd level: diminishing the hurt when hit, increasing the hurt when hitting, and moving a teammates either closer or farther from the action without risk from the enemies' Opportunity Attacks).

- Does not require a big stat investment to make the capacities worthwhile.

- Access to Second Wind, Action Surge, and a Fighting Style (like all Fighter multiclasses)

- Medium armor and Danger Sense allow one to not invest too much in DEX, which means INT can be invested in instead. The Fighting Style can be used to strengthen the defensive capabilities of the character if it is considered needed.

- [If Fighter is the primary class] Additional ASIs help with the slowed down ASI gain due to multiclass.

The Master, or the Apprentice?

My recommendation: take 2 levels of Barbarian and the rest of Psi Warrior Fighter, giving you a diamond-jaw combatant whose martial prowesses are complemented both by strong, aggressive strikes that bait the enemies into focusing their aggression on them and by a strong defense making maintaining said aggression an ill-advised idea.

Plus there is the awesomeness to just being able to lift a Large object with the power of your mind and let it drop on your enemies, while still Raging.

Not a Story the Jedi Would Tell

However, that is not to say that taking 3 levels of Barbarian can't be worthwhile. On top of the additional d12 Hit Dice and the optional Primal Knowledge feature, most of the Barbarian subclasses do have perks useful for the character (and also quite flavorful ones, if you want to Sith it up):

-Ancestral Guardian: the spirits of the dead help you force the enemy to focus their aggression on you.

-Beast: every Rage, you get the choice between an additional attack, healing for proficiency bonus if you hit someone once per turn, and a Reaction-based 1d8 bonus to AC. Let the beast inside out.

-Storm Herald: you get the choice between a bit of constant fire damage on everyone within 10ft of you, a tiny bit of temporary HPs, or the capacity to strike an enemy with lightning for extra damage.

-Totem Warrior: your Rage gives either more resistances, more jumping distance, more walking speed, a Dash bonus action and becoming harder to hit for Opportunity Attacks, and giving advantage in melee to your allies against the enemies 5ft around your

-Wild Magic: you now have a sixth sense for magic, as well as a random special effect when you Rage. Most of the possible effects work pretty well with the Psi Warrior toolset.

-Zealot: extra damage once per turn, as well as being easier to be brought back from the dead.

That being said, I do not personally recommend trading a Fighter level for any of those unless you prefer that flavor.

Dumping INT would indeed be a mistake, but "INT makes the abilities more reliable and powerful" doesn't mean "very high INT is needed". My suggested score would be a 14 (or starting at 13).

The race I suggest for a Darth Maul build would be Githyanki, as not only the racial mods are in STR and INT, you also get more Force-user-appropriate psionic powers from that option. Sadly the Githyanki's psionic powers are spells, but you can use them when you don't Rage and keep your psionic dices when you do.

CMCC

2020-12-11, 07:02 PM

A sorcadin also brings things to the table. A jedi mind trick is basically a subtle suggestion. Jedis don't look like they are doing magic.

My Jedi build at the moment is a Custom Lineage Dvine Soul Sorceror 2-3/ Monk 0-3/ Divination Wizard X with the Metamagic and Lucky feat. The Custom Lineage represents the midichlorians that runs in the genes. According to the source material, the Force is inherited. Monk allows you to wield a staff or longsword off of Dexterity. Metamagic gets you the Mind Trick. Divination makes you unstoppable when the cosmic forces align just right.

Yeah, Sorcadin can do some of the things, but unfortunately not all of them. It just doesn't offer the flexibility that this multiclass build brings. Also, you completely lose everything that artificer has to offer, which may be fine for some people - but I want that option there for an all encompassing "guide".

I also don't agree that force users don't have the somatic portion of spells. Especially for the jedi mind trick. They definitely wave their hands, even if its a minimum. You also can tell they're casting spells - even if it's not Witcher style hand symbols. But if having it completely motionless is important, then the metamagic feat is there for the taking.

For me, I assume the S component is a "wave of the hand" or a "push out with a hand" type motion more so than drawing air symbols or something. Just my personal flavor based on magic in common media.

Bobthewizard

2020-12-12, 09:29 AM

I like enchanter for the wizard subclass, using hypnotic gaze as the force choke, holding out your hand while you look into their eyes.

CMCC

2020-12-12, 10:59 AM

I like enchanter for the wizard subclass, using hypnotic gaze as the force choke, holding out your hand while you look into their eyes.

That could definitely work. I don’t know if it parallels as well as the arcane deflection ability, but still a cool idea.

Damon_Tor

2020-12-12, 11:56 AM

A sorcadin also brings things to the table. A jedi mind trick is basically a subtle suggestion. Jedis don't look like they are doing magic.

But there's clearly both a verbal and somatic component when they use it.

Damon_Tor

2020-12-12, 12:08 PM

EDIT: Not sure if anyone noticed but FORCE GHOST, FORCE SENSE, and midi chlorine MANIPULATION don’t have spell equivalents.

Force sense is kind of a passive ability that could include a bunch of other sub-effects. Anything that improves initiative, insight or perception is a good start. The Alert feat or the War Wizard's Tactical Wit, for example.

CMCC

2020-12-13, 07:38 PM

Updated with Wizard subclasses and scag cantrips for those interested.

ZRN

2020-12-14, 09:56 AM

In my opinion Psi Warrior doesn't bring anything to the table that Wizard doesn't already bring except action surge.

Battlesmith 3/Fighter 2 [optional]/Paladin 2 [optional]/ Wizard X would be my take

Bladesinger pairs really well with Battlesmith.

Divination Wizard is a really good representation of "the Force". You can alter destiny with Portent.

Blindfighting fighting style is also obvious.

I feel like this approach misses the forest for the trees a bit. At level 20, this character will indeed be able to simulate many/most of the esoteric force powers out there. But he'll also be considerably worse at sword-fighting than a straight Psi Warrior 20, and I'd argue that lightsaber skills are 90% of what distinguishes a jedi in combat.

With a couple feats like Telepathic and Magic Initiate, the PW can do pretty much everything at least from the first trilogy (which is basically sword-fighting, telekinesis, some limited telepathic tricks, and mediocre lightning attacks). I get dipping into maybe sorcerer (I'd say divine soul) at high levels to simulate the jedi master stuff, but these builds that spend most of their time as weird gishes that only use a tiny portion of the spells they have available don't seem ideal to me.

An added complaint (which also applies to PW): Watch any Star Wars movie and point out the Jedi with a double-digit Int score. (Maybe Palpatine?) No way these guys are SAD Intelligence!

KorvinStarmast

2020-12-14, 10:08 AM

vHuman Warlock, Pact of the Blade, and even though I hate it, Hexblade.
Feat: Telepathic, or, the one that gets us an extra invocation. Probably the latter.
Repelling Blast and (Later) Grasp of Hadar move people around with EB.
I'll get you a spell list and edit it in. If the build is to 20, I am thinking lock 11 sorc 9, or lock 9 sorc 11, with Aberrent Sorc as the origin. Need to get to my tasha's in a bit to make the whole thing.

Problem is, Jedi probably would feel at home on the Astral Plane, so getting to 'Lock 17 and Sorc 3 might be what I have to do to get Astral Projection, but I then go "arrggghhh" because Foresight kinda rocks as a mystic arcanum.
I mean, what says Jedi more than this:

Foresight
9th-*‐‑level divination
...snip...
... can’t be surprised and has advantage on attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws. Additionally, other creatures have disadvantage on attack rolls against the target for the duration. But that's at the far end of the build.

CMCC

2020-12-14, 06:03 PM

Updated with DMG analysis.

I would ask anyone who wants to contribute separate "jedi" build ideas, to take a look at the list of force abilities, and marry that with the martial and droid requirements and show how your build does a better (or different) job of matching those abilities.

Thanks

JediMaster

2020-12-15, 04:10 AM

I think a Druid 1/ Monk 1 / Cleric (Life/Peace) 1 / Wizard (Divination/ War Magic /Bladesinger) X offers a strong Jedi.

I think an Aberrant Sorceror 1/ Hexblade 1/ Wizard 1/Sorceror 2/ Wizard (Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy) X offers a strong Sith.

KorvinStarmast

2020-12-15, 10:34 AM

CMCC

2020-12-15, 10:36 AM

Why those and what does it offer that this post’s multiclass doesn’t?

How are you handling combat? Sci fi elements? Droids? Tinkering? How are you wearing heavy metallic armor with a Druid? Are you using a blaster? Light saber?

KorvinStarmast

2020-12-15, 10:36 AM

droid requirements
That's a place where I find this premise to be invalid.
Anyone can use a droid in Star Wars universe; having one is hardly a requirement to be a Jedi. That you lead with artificer feels forced to me, so I'll bow out of this thread.

By the way, did you actually play this build (that you have in the OP?) or is this theory crafting?

CMCC

2020-12-15, 10:37 AM

What's the Druid 1 for?

Probably healing spells. Not sure why you wouldn’t take cleric.

That's a place where I find this premise to be invalid.
Anyone can use a droid in Star Wars universe; having one is hardly a requirement to be a Jedi. That you lead with artificer feels forced to me, so I'll bow out of this thread.

By the way, did you actually play this build (that you have in the OP?) or is this theory crafting?

You’ve described why it’s more important to have a droid for a true force user build (they are ubiquitous in that world) - not less. Ignoring the close relationship that Luke and Rey had to droids is a little... odd to me.

Again, we’re not building a Jedi. We’re building an ALL ENCOMPASSING force user build that can be modified to meet all (or as many as possible) needs for that specific type of force user.

We are theory crafting. That’s why there are questions about how to better match force abilities.

I’ve provided a level by level damage breakdown if you question the efficacy at lower levels.

KorvinStarmast

2020-12-15, 11:47 AM

We are theory crafting. Got it, I'll just check in later as the thread progresses to see what else folks come with.

Unoriginal

2020-12-15, 12:24 PM

YouÂ’ve described why itÂ’s more important to have a droid for a true force user build (they are ubiquitous in that world) - not less. Ignoring the close relationship that Luke and Rey had to droids is a little... odd to me.

1) There are tons of people in-setting, Force users amd non-Force users alike, who don't have droid companions.

2)The droids who hangs out with the other characters are characters by themselves, not something to be represented by class abilities. It's like saying to represent Captain America the build needs to be able to cast Summon Greater Demon because the demon can be flavored as being the Hulk, and Captain America is in the same team as the Hulk.

Only exception to that is the protagonist for the Fallen Order video game, who does have a robot helping him in and out of combat to compensate for his lack of Training (while the droid would be too small and fragile to do much if they weren't always with the protag).

3) Luke and Rey do not have any special relationship with droids. Some of their friends just happen to be droids. Out of all the Force users in the movies who has demonstrated any particular skill with droids beyond the basics was Anakin, who built one from recuperated parts.

JediMaster

2020-12-15, 12:48 PM

Are Jedi masters of ancient and secret (and almost forgotten) fighting techniques or are they just regular old fighters?

CMCC

2020-12-15, 01:18 PM

1) There are tons of people in-setting, Force users amd non-Force users alike, who don't have droid companions. Which is why you have the choice to not take a droid companion with either a 1-2 lvl dip into artificer (for healing, tinkering, and a blaster), or take a subclass like armorer and reflavor the gauntlets as lightsabers and the infiltrator as a blaster. #Options

2)The droids who hangs out with the other characters are characters by themselves, not something to be represented by class abilities. It's like saying to represent Captain America the build needs to be able to cast Summon Greater Demon because the demon can be flavored as being the Hulk, and Captain America is in the same team as the Hulk.
This is quite the stretch. The obvious flaw here is that none of the droids have their own movies or even their own arcs in any meaningful way. The droids primary purpose in the actual star wars movie is as a plot device and sidekick (to bring the adventure/journey/challenge to the main character - Luke > same for Rey). That droid (r2d2) was the main character's co-pilot in the climax of that film. He's a key piece to Luke's progression as a character.

Much better examples in different films would be Dr. Strange's cloak or the flying carpet in Aladdin. Characters that aren't alive, don't talk (in a language we understand), yet communicate and have a clear personality. Can you make Dr. Strange without his cloak? Sure. Is it better if you have the cloak - that functions as its own sidekick IN GAME. IMO yes.

Compare that to, what would seem similar characters, Groot or Chewy. If I were to make an argument that those were necessary components of a character build for RR or HS, then I would probably side with you.

Only exception to that is the protagonist for the Fallen Order video game, who does have a robot helping him in and out of combat to compensate for his lack of Training (while the droid would be too small and fragile to do much if they weren't always with the protag).

That is another great example, agreed.

3) Luke and Rey do not have any special relationship with droids. Some of their friends just happen to be droids. Out of all the Force users in the movies who has demonstrated any particular skill with droids beyond the basics was Anakin, who built one from recuperated parts.
Anakin was listed in the OP. Star Wars as a movie/story was literally started by Luke tinkering with a droid to fix it.

Again, if you don't want your force user to have a droid sidekick then don't give yourself one. But the option absolutely must be there if the goal is to create a single multi-class build option that can account for ALL TYPES of force users.

ZRN

2020-12-15, 01:30 PM

Again, if you don't want your force user to have a droid sidekick then don't give yourself one. But the option absolutely must be there if the goal is to create a single multi-class build option that can account for ALL TYPES of force users.

I certainly think that if you were trying to play any Star Wars character in 5e, artificer might be a good option at least for a multiclass dip, purely because Star Wars is sci fi and they're the only even vaguely sci-fi class in the game.

Lots of force users were also good at flying spaceships. It was at least as defining a characteristic as "friends with robots" - bullseyeing womp rats, etc. But we don't account for that in these builds because the 5e setting doesn't include spaceships.

Anyway, it's interesting to me that you say you're "creating a single multi-class build option." What does that mean? If I want to play, I don't know, Qui-Gon Jin or Mace Windu or Adam Driver or some other Jedi who (as far as I recall) didn't have any special droid affinities, am I supposed to skip the Artificer levels, or take them anyway and just ignore the robot buddy abilities?

I still don't get why you'd pick wizard over, say, sorcerer or even cleric. The Force is CLEARLY not based on scrolls and spellbooks, and it's not just a "Jedi are dumb" joke to say that it's not intelligence-based. I'd say it's almost certainly wisdom-based, with the zen flavor, but you could make an argument for charisma, especially for Sith.

My build would be something like:
1. Convince your DM to let you play a Psi Warrior based in Cha instead of Int.
2. If you feel like it, probably after level 11 or so, start multiclassing into Divine Soul sorcerer for other force powers.

Unlike the OP's combo, you don't have to explicitly gimp your character by refusing to prepare a ton of non-Jedi-like spells you have access to - just pick Jedi- (or Sith-) appropriate spells and go nuts!

CMCC

2020-12-15, 01:37 PM

I certainly think that if you were trying to play any Star Wars character in 5e, artificer might be a good option at least for a multiclass dip, purely because Star Wars is sci fi and they're the only even vaguely sci-fi class in the game.

Lots of force users were also good at flying spaceships. It was at least as defining a characteristic as "friends with robots" - bullseyeing womp rats, etc. But we don't account for that in these builds because the 5e setting doesn't include spaceships.

Agreed. So this is about as close as we can get without completely changing the 5e lore/setting.

JediMaster

2020-12-15, 01:39 PM

What stat do you associate most strongly with the Jedi? The source material suggests Wisdom.

ZRN

2020-12-15, 01:43 PM

Agreed. So this is about as close as we can get without completely changing the 5e lore/setting.

Possibly bad form but I edited my post while you were commenting - sorry!

CMCC

2020-12-15, 02:46 PM

What stat do you associate most strongly with the Jedi? The source material suggests Wisdom.

Yes (it functions as a religion) - but this is a game and we’re matching mechanics to lore.

If wise characters are important to you - put more points into wisdom.

But there are no wisdom based spellcasters who meet our needs. So we adjust as needed.

Role play the “wise Jedi master” as you see fit. That’s flavor. Not mechanics. Wisdom in 5e is more of an ability to read things without thinking than it is the traditional religious wisdom that we generally use.

I mean there have been a ton of suggestions and builds that use charisma and the Jedi that we know are about as devoid of charisma as you can get.

So that’s a tough argument for me to accept.

Unoriginal

2020-12-15, 02:46 PM

Anakin was listed in the OP. Star Wars as a movie/story was literally started by Luke tinkering with a droid to fix it.

Star Wars as a story was literally started by a princess trusting a droid with the macguffin and sending them a mission to find a wizard.

That the droid had to bamboozle a young man into removing their don't-escape device after having been sold in slavery doesn't change that.

JediMaster

2020-12-15, 02:59 PM

Yes (it functions as a religion) - but this is a game and we’re matching mechanics to lore.

If wise characters are important to you - put more points into wisdom.

But there are no wisdom based spellcasters who meet our needs. So we adjust as needed.

Role play the “wise Jedi master” as you see fit. That’s flavor. Not mechanics. Wisdom in 5e is more of an ability to read things without thinking than it is the traditional religious wisdom that we generally use.

I mean there have been a ton of suggestions and builds that use charisma and the Jedi that we know are about as devoid of charisma as you can get.

So that’s a tough argument for me to accept.

Jedi draw their power from Intuition / Wisdom and only people who draw from this power can learn to fight like them. Those who fall from the path of Wisdom become Sith.

The fighting arts of the Jedi are ancient and secret. They follow the old ways.

The Jedi seek peace and only resort to violence as a last resort.

CMCC

2020-12-15, 03:16 PM

Anyway, it's interesting to me that you say you're "creating a single multi-class build option." What does that mean? If I want to play, I don't know, Qui-Gon Jin or Mace Windu or Adam Driver or some other Jedi who (as far as I recall) didn't have any special droid affinities, am I supposed to skip the Artificer levels, or take them anyway and just ignore the robot buddy abilities?

I would still take a min of 1-2 level in artificer for the sci-fi feel and infusions, but ideally you would just take armorer and flavor the gauntlets as a lightsaber. If you're going the Sith route this is a fairly solid option as they often have armor with high tech.

I still don't get why you'd pick wizard over, say, sorcerer or even cleric. The Force is CLEARLY not based on scrolls and spellbooks, and it's not just a "Jedi are dumb" joke to say that it's not intelligence-based. I'd say it's almost certainly wisdom-based, with the zen flavor, but you could make an argument for charisma, especially for Sith.

As we learned in TLJ, the Jedi have used books as an integral part of their teachings for generations. I would flavor my spellbook as one of those books - referenced when one wants to use a new or unfamiliar power. We know that force users rely heavily on ritual casting - as meditating and casting spells has been seen often since Empire.

Wisdom doesn't work for a Force build in 5e. Although I would agree that you should have a positive wisdom score - it shouldn't be a dump stat. But if you tell me Luke is a wise character in Hope and Empire, I'd probably laugh. To use the force you certainly don't need to be wise. But the films play on the old, wise religious master tropes - as mentioned above.

Charisma doesn't work for me either for the same reasons. Most Jedi just aren't particularly charismatic.

My build would be something like:
1. Convince your DM to let you play a Psi Warrior based in Cha instead of Int.

That's not RAW, so personally, I'm not interested in it. If it works for you > have at it.

Unlike the OP's combo, you don't have to explicitly gimp your character by refusing to prepare a ton of non-Jedi-like spells you have access to - just pick Jedi- (or Sith-) appropriate spells and go nuts!
I honestly don't know how picking jedi/sith spells with a sorcerer would differ from doing the same with a wizard. I'm probably missing something though.

Star Wars as a story was literally started by a princess trusting a droid with the macguffin and sending them a mission to find a wizard.

That the droid had to bamboozle a young man into removing their don't-escape device after having been sold in slavery doesn't change that.

The inciting incident of the story is Luke tinkering with R2 and finding the message. It's a plot device.

Jedi draw their power from Intuition / Wisdom and only people who draw from this power can learn to fight like them. Those who fall from the path of Wisdom become Sith.

The fighting arts of the Jedi are ancient and secret. They follow the old ways.

The Jedi seek peace and only resort to violence as a last resort.

Cool. Thanks. Good flavor here for those who want to go with Jedi.

JediMaster

2020-12-15, 03:29 PM

The Wisdom based build represents the secret and ancient fighting art of the Jedi. An unarmored yet high AC Mobile Pole Arm Master wielding a Green Flame Blade/Booming Blade Shillelagh and a force pull (reflavored Thorn Whip/ Gust/ Gust of Wind/ Mage Hand/ Unseen Servant/ Bigby's Hand/ Telekinesis, etc.).

Animated skeletons, Tiny Servants (even Familiar) can be flavored as Droids. Give them Magic Stones.

Luke doesn't become a Jedi Master by getting a high Intelligence and dexterity. He becomes a Jedi Master by acquiring Wisdom.

Jedi don't require armor to fight. Monks unarmored defense is almost a requisite to being a Jedi.

ZRN

2020-12-15, 04:58 PM

As we learned in TLJ, the Jedi have used books as an integral part of their teachings for generations. I would flavor my spellbook as one of those books - referenced when one wants to use a new or unfamiliar power. We know that force users rely heavily on ritual casting - as meditating and casting spells has been seen often since Empire.

One aspect of the Force that the films (and other media) have been pretty explicit on is how you learn to use it. It's pretty much ALL zen-master tropes. Yoda doesn't have a secret library in his swamp house to train Luke. You can reflavor stuff however works for you, but I don't know why you'd rather take the wizard class, which is loaded with fluff and mechanics that don't add up, than the sorcerer, which at least has simpler mechanics and fewer spells known to deal with.

Wisdom doesn't work for a Force build in 5e. Although I would agree that you should have a positive wisdom score - it shouldn't be a dump stat. But if you tell me Luke is a wise character in Hope and Empire, I'd probably laugh. To use the force you certainly don't need to be wise. But the films play on the old, wise religious master tropes - as mentioned above.

Charisma doesn't work for me either for the same reasons. Most Jedi just aren't particularly charismatic.

Okay, they're definitely not smart - the entire Jedi Council got outsmarted by some pretty dumb ploys in the prequels and Clone Wars. The whole zen-master thing is traditionally associated with wisdom - thus, monks - and you could argue that especially Sith have the whole passion/willpower thing that's associated with e.g. warlocks and sorcerers as charisma.

I honestly don't know how picking jedi/sith spells with a sorcerer would differ from doing the same with a wizard. I'm probably missing something though.

Just that the wizard class can learn an unlimited number of spells, and pick new spells every day, so it's weird if your guy refuses to cast anything but Telekinesis and Lightning Bolt.

CMCC

2020-12-15, 07:12 PM

One aspect of the Force that the films (and other media) have been pretty explicit on is how you learn to use it. It's pretty much ALL zen-master tropes. Yoda doesn't have a secret library in his swamp house to train Luke. You can reflavor stuff however works for you, but I don't know why you'd rather take the wizard class, which is loaded with fluff and mechanics that don't add up, than the sorcerer, which at least has simpler mechanics and fewer spells known to deal with.
Jedi and sith must study and train HARD to get their powers. AND the power runs through their veins. Honestly I think Sorcerer and Wizard both have non-mechanical aspects that work well and also don't work well. Again, we do know that the Jedi have books that they are presumably studying. We have no idea if Yoda had books in his hut. I'm not sure why you assume he didn't. But even if he didn't, Yoda would have memorized all the important books in his 900 years life.

Sorcerer would be great if it multi-classed with psi-warrior and artificer. I'd definitely consider it. I'm also not trying to build some underpowered Sorcadin variant.

Okay, they're definitely not smart - the entire Jedi Council got outsmarted by some pretty dumb ploys in the prequels and Clone Wars. The whole zen-master thing is traditionally associated with wisdom - thus, monks - and you could argue that especially Sith have the whole passion/willpower thing that's associated with e.g. warlocks and sorcerers as charisma.
See below. RP as you see fit. Plenty of book smart people can be out-maneuvered in political warfare. This is honestly a non-issue for me. If it bothers others, they are welcome to try other things.

Just that the wizard class can learn an unlimited number of spells, and pick new spells every day, so it's weird if your guy refuses to cast anything but Telekinesis and Lightning Bolt.

Apologies if that was your impression. This character is using GFB or shadow blade (as a lightsaber stand in), spirit shroud for the force valor ability, animate objects, telekinesis, clairvoyance, divination, enhance ability, charm everything, hold person, levitate, lightning spells, detect thoughts, wall of force and literally dozens of other spells as listed in the sheet above.

Will it be the strongest use of wizard spells? Probably not. We're leaving out Polymorph, greater invisibility (although you can argue this can be used to), teleportation spells (misty step, thunder step, dimension door), among other standout spells.

That's an issue with the force, not the build.

The Wisdom based build represents the secret and ancient fighting art of the Jedi. An unarmored yet high AC Mobile Pole Arm Master wielding a Green Flame Blade/Booming Blade Shillelagh and a force pull (reflavored Thorn Whip/ Gust/ Gust of Wind/ Mage Hand/ Unseen Servant/ Bigby's Hand/ Telekinesis, etc.).
Yes you can acquire some force abilities with other classes. Are you able to get MORE than what I've provided with any wisdom build?

Animated skeletons, Tiny Servants (even Familiar) can be flavored as Droids. Give them Magic Stones.
Or get an actual droid.

Luke doesn't become a Jedi Master by getting a high Intelligence and dexterity. He becomes a Jedi Master by acquiring Wisdom.
You're welcome to increase your wisdom score via ASI or other means. The idea that our in game force user must use the in game wisdom stat is a very strange one to get hung up on. It's maybe the least important part of the build.

RP the gaining of abilities as you see fit. If you want to RP getting wiser. Do that. There is nothing in the rules against that. The wisdom you're talking about is not the wisdom stat of D&D.

Jedi don't require armor to fight. Monks unarmored defense is almost a requisite to being a Jedi.
Old Jedi did use armor and current Sith use armor. Unarmored defense is not important - and if you must use it, simply take the mage armor spell and max dex. You're at 18!

Damon_Tor

2020-12-15, 07:38 PM

There's a lot in this thread about what's required to play a Jedi or Sith or whatever, what's vital to the concept. Frankly, I don't think there's any one class level that ALL force users would have in common. A pure bladesinger would make a fine Yoda-style Jedi without any multiclassing. A Psi Warrior would work great out of the box for many of the less cerebral Jedi. I do tend to think of Jedi as Int not Wis: they are way too easy to trick to have Wis worth a damn. The things they are hilariously bad at are insight-related: things like "is my Padawan banging the Senator he's obviously banging?" or "Who could possibly be the big bad evil guy who is manipulating everybody? Oh Hello Chancellor Palpatine, how lovely to see you." They have a variety of extra-sensory abilities, but that's totally in keeping with the various divination spells available to wizards, and I would argue that a Jedi built primarily for these sort of abilities would be best served by a Divination Wizard than anything a cleric or druid could offer.

Sith, however, I think are more likely to be charisma casters: they lean on talent (sorcerers) or act as power-parasites (warlocks) or simply rely too much on their emotions with the best of intentions (ironically, paladins). What we've seen of Sith seem to back up the idea that they lean heavily into charisma: Palpatine and Dooku certainly maxed out the stat, and even a blunt instrument like Maul managed to build himself a criminal empire. Anakin's natural talent and impatience with study marks him as more sorcerer than wizard, and paladin levels for his martial skills seem appropriate enough.

JediMaster

2020-12-15, 08:01 PM

CMCC

2020-12-15, 10:44 PM

Sith, however, I think are more likely to be charisma casters: they lean on talent (sorcerers) or act as power-parasites (warlocks) or simply rely too much on their emotions with the best of intentions (ironically, paladins). What we've seen of Sith seem to back up the idea that they lean heavily into charisma: Palpatine and Dooku certainly maxed out the stat, and even a blunt instrument like Maul managed to build himself a criminal empire. Anakin's natural talent and impatience with study marks him as more sorcerer than wizard, and paladin levels for his martial skills seem appropriate enough.

What, mechanically speaking, would any of the charisma casting classes bring to the table that wizard doesn't already handle? I agree with everything you write lore and RP wise, but which actual mechanics, abilities, skills, spells etc are handled better with a CHA caster.

If you are going the route of the high deception type sith, you can still max INT, have a high CHA and take deception/persuasion skills.

This multi-class doesn't preclude that.

ZRN

2020-12-15, 11:28 PM

What, mechanically speaking, would any of the charisma casting classes bring to the table that wizard doesn't already handle? I agree with everything you write lore and RP wise, but which actual mechanics, abilities, skills, spells etc are handled better with a CHA caster.

Persuade and Intimidate.

Subtle Spell is pretty important - Jedi don’t use magic words when they channel the Force.

Quickened Spell, Twinned Spell... pretty much any metamagic is both mechanically useful and situationally Jedi-like. Heck, in a pinch the new sorcery point to reroll mechanic from Tashas is Luke “using the Force” to shoot the Death Star.

Damon_Tor

2020-12-16, 10:33 AM

What, mechanically speaking, would any of the charisma casting classes bring to the table that wizard doesn't already handle? I agree with everything you write lore and RP wise, but which actual mechanics, abilities, skills, spells etc are handled better with a CHA caster.

If you are going the route of the high deception type sith, you can still max INT, have a high CHA and take deception/persuasion skills.

This multi-class doesn't preclude that.

Oh it's purely a lore argument. Int = Hard work, Cha = Inherent power. Mechanically there's not enough difference between a sorcerer and a wizard to matter: sorcerers aren't lacking any spells that are critical to either concept IIRC. They lack a dedicated melee subclass, and the bladesinger is a really strong Jedi candidate, but then a sorcerer can MC warlock for hexblade and do quite well.

CMCC

2020-12-16, 12:22 PM

Persuade and Intimidate.

You can take those with your background.

And take the metamagic initiate feat if you really want subtle spell. Force users don't mutter words, but they certainly all have a somatic component. So, that's kind of a wash for me. Material components can be taken care of with a focus (better yet, get a ruby of the war mage).

ZRN

2020-12-16, 04:37 PM

You can take those with your background.

And take the metamagic initiate feat if you really want subtle spell. Force users don't mutter words, but they certainly all have a somatic component. So, that's kind of a wash for me. Material components can be taken care of with a focus (better yet, get a ruby of the war mage).

I guess it's a matter of focus/priorities. Glancing at your chart, it looks like a Psi Warrior 15/Sorcerer5 could do any force power except for mind control and force projection. You could dial it to a PW11/Sor9 if you want a heavier focus on force stuff. You're more MAD, but you also have 2-3 more ASIs, so maybe that makes up for it. (And it's not like a no-armor force user like... most of them other than Vader can afford to have bad dexterity.)

CMCC

2020-12-16, 10:38 PM

I guess it's a matter of focus/priorities. Glancing at your chart, it looks like a Psi Warrior 15/Sorcerer5 could do any force power except for mind control and force projection. You could dial it to a PW11/Sor9 if you want a heavier focus on force stuff. You're more MAD, but you also have 2-3 more ASIs, so maybe that makes up for it. (And it's not like a no-armor force user like... most of them other than Vader can afford to have bad dexterity.)

I guess I don’t get why you would want to give up the flexibility of having all access to all force powers and go MAD with INT and CHA when you don’t have to.

Why wouldn’t you just do a PW 15/ wiz 5 build or 11/9 if you really don’t want to go with an artificer.

Zaile

2020-12-18, 08:08 PM

You can take those with your background.

And take the metamagic initiate feat if you really want subtle spell. Force users don't mutter words, but they certainly all have a somatic component. So, that's kind of a wash for me. Material components can be taken care of with a focus (better yet, get a ruby of the war mage).

Force users are some of the chattiest people in Star Wars. Verbal composts = witty banter. All their mind-affecting powers are literally then saying what target is to do.

I second the Bladesinger, even comes with a built-in dark-saber.

Overall the Soulknife and Psi warrior are just "meh." Could make a descent multi-class PW 5,7 or 11/SK 3-9. Still neither class is gives more force-user powers than a caster.

Damon_Tor

2020-12-19, 10:47 AM

Force users are some of the chattiest people in Star Wars. Verbal composts = witty banter. All their mind-affecting powers are literally then saying what target is to do.

I second the Bladesinger, even comes with a built-in dark-saber.

Overall the Soulknife and Psi warrior are just "meh." Could make a descent multi-class PW 5,7 or 11/SK 3-9. Still neither class is gives more force-user powers than a caster.

You don't necessarily need more powers, it all depends on which sort of force user you're looking to create. Someone like Maul would be perfectly happy as a Psi Warrior, where all you really need to do him justice is martial prowess and strong TK abilities.

Quietus

2020-12-19, 11:48 AM

Old Jedi did use armor and current Sith use armor. Unarmored defense is not important - and if you must use it, simply take the mage armor spell and max dex and the defensive fighting style. You're at 19!

Unfortunately, Defensive fighting style doesn't work with Mage Armor. The fighting style requires that you wear armor, and mage armor requires that you don't.

I appreciate what this thread is trying to do, but I think it's just one option and is trying to run itself a little too ragged in an attempt to hit every checkbox. Very few (no?) Jedi knew every power, if memory serves. Beyond this, there are absolutely some Jedi who were more focused in one area or another. You could create a single classed caster with no Extra Attack, relatively few melee abilities, no droid, and still be a Jedi. You're just a Jedi who doesn't practice with their lightsaber, and instead focuses on the more esoteric aspects of the Force, and relies on Force powers to do what needs to be done. On the other end of the spectrum, as noted, Maul is a powerful Force user, but is very well represented by straight up Psi Warrior. He's a blunt instrument, made of raw force and martial talent. He doesn't have all of these Force powers, just the ones that have an immediate, palpable, and intimidating effect. Mostly Force Move.

The real trick is to say, "This is my build to represent Luke/Anakin Skywalker", and fit in powers to match that. Hell, if you've watched Rebels, you could probably get away with using some Ranger build to represent Ezra Bridger.

Unoriginal

2020-12-19, 12:06 PM

I appreciate what this thread is trying to do, but I think it's just one option and is trying to run itself a little too ragged in an attempt to hit every checkbox. Very few (no?) Jedi knew every power, if memory serves. Beyond this, there are absolutely some Jedi who were more focused in one area or another. You could create a single classed caster with no Extra Attack, relatively few melee abilities, no droid, and still be a Jedi. You're just a Jedi who doesn't practice with their lightsaber, and instead focuses on the more esoteric aspects of the Force, and relies on Force powers to do what needs to be done. On the other end of the spectrum, as noted, Maul is a powerful Force user, but is very well represented by straight up Psi Warrior. He's a blunt instrument, made of raw force and martial talent. He doesn't have all of these Force powers, just the ones that have an immediate, palpable, and intimidating effect. Mostly Force Move.

The real trick is to say, "This is my build to represent Luke/Anakin Skywalker", and fit in powers to match that. Hell, if you've watched Rebels, you could probably get away with using some Ranger build to represent Ezra Bridger.

This is quite true. I had started a list of how to represent the different characters, maybe I should finish it.

Honestly something like being a Jedi would be best represented by a Faction or a Group Patron, with maybe a Background for "raised at the temple".

On the other end of the spectrum, as noted, Maul is a powerful Force user, but is very well represented by straight up Psi Warrior. He's a blunt instrument, made of raw force and martial talent. He doesn't have all of these Force powers, just the ones that have an immediate, palpable, and intimidating effect. Mostly Force Move.

I've argued and I'll still argue that Maul is best represented by Barbarian 2/Psi Warrior Fighter X.

CMCC

2020-12-19, 01:27 PM

Unfortunately, Defensive fighting style doesn't work with Mage Armor. The fighting style requires that you wear armor, and mage armor requires that you don't.

Bleh. Off hand comment. Should have actually thought about it before posting. Hate when people do that. Edited.

The real trick is to say, "This is my build to represent Luke/Anakin Skywalker", and fit in powers to match that.
Obviously any individual build can be tweaked a bit, and there is very unlikely to be a build in the movies that you can't make with a combination of 1 or more of the classes and abilities/spells represented. If you want to go straight wizard - go straight wizard, but use my guide for the force powers. If you want to go straight fighter - do it, but use my guide to get the necessary force powers whenever possible (e.g. feats).

This is meant to be a broad guide for a generic force user. A specific force user will of course deviate due to specialization and character specifics.

As for the artificer dip that some people love and others seem to hate, well the perfect image to represent what we're doing here..

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/JTCsfAG37-U/maxresdefault.jpg https://i.gadgets360cdn.com/large/mandalorian_season_2_episode_8_r2d2_luke_grogu_160 8288874201.jpg And yes, I know R2D2 didn't fight with Luke. He would have gotten slaughtered. I imagine you do the same thing when you're level 3 SD is by your side and you fight an Ancient Red Dragon.

And here are a bunch of times R2D2 helped out in combat situations. Sometimes with an attack. Other times by "mending" stuff. And others times by doing droid ****.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLmOteqmDYc

This is quite true. I had started a list of how to represent the different characters, maybe I should finish it.

If you do so, can you create a comprehensive list of each character's full abilities to see how closely we can match them?

I'd be very curious to see if there was any hard ability that you find (from the movies) that isn't covered in my force list.

Unoriginal

2020-12-19, 01:59 PM

As for the artificer dip that some people love and others seem to hate, well the perfect image to represent what we're doing here..

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/JTCsfAG37-U/maxresdefault.jpg https://i.gadgets360cdn.com/large/mandalorian_season_2_episode_8_r2d2_luke_grogu_160 8288874201.jpg

Two separate adventurers working together, yes.

If you do so, can you create a comprehensive list of each character's full abilities to see how closely we can match them?

I can try, I'm not sure if you'd consider it comprehensive, though.

I'd be very curious to see if there was any hard ability that you find (from the movies) that isn't covered in my force list.

The idea is generally less that there are Force abilities that aren't covered by your list, and more that not every character needs all the abilities in your list.

CMCC

2020-12-19, 02:52 PM

Two separate adventurers working together, yes.

You’re killing me on this one. Who is going to make r2d2 the D&D character? Wont ever happen. He’s a droid. A steel defender is the best match in the game.

I can try, I'm not sure if you'd consider it comprehensive, though.

The idea is generally less that there are Force abilities that aren't covered by your list, and more that not every character needs all the abilities in your list.

Totally agree.

That’s why the main post title isn’t specific to a person. Just a generic force user.

masterjoda99

2020-12-19, 03:26 PM

You’re killing me on this one. Who is going to make r2d2 the D&D character? Wont ever happen. He’s a droid. A steel defender is the best match in the game.

Totally agree.

That’s why the main post title isn’t specific to a person. Just a generic force user.

I dunno man, warforged skill monkey build, plenty of folks would and have made r2d2 the D&D character. Methinks that that particular droid is a bad example...?

Unoriginal

2020-12-19, 03:32 PM

You’re killing me on this one. Who is going to make r2d2 the D&D character? Wont ever happen. He’s a droid. A steel defender is the best match in the game.

A Warforged is, actually. If you want to go by Player options only.

CMCC

2020-12-19, 04:37 PM

Damon_Tor

2020-12-19, 06:33 PM

Warforged could possibly work for other droids like IG-11 or C3P0... but as r2d2? Strong disagree.

Again - he’s more akin to dr strange’s cape or Aladdin’s carpet than the other droids.

That said, I do want to see this R2D2 build and how it would not be awful.

There was a webcomic at one point, "Darths and Droids" IIRC. In it, R2D2 was portrayed as the PC of an unrepentant powergamer who deliberately took a ton of weaknesses for this character (mute, no legs, no arms, etc) for minmaxing purposes. Doesn't really apply to 5e, which doesn't have a comparable flaws system.

I don't agree that Luke should be an Artificer so he can have a droid with him, though. If anything, use the the sidekick rules and make R2D2 a specialist or expert or whatever they called it. He's basically just a lockpicker/hacker/navigator skill monkey. Steel Defender doesn't really fit R2D2 at all.

CMCC

2020-12-19, 07:57 PM

There was a webcomic at one point, "Darths and Droids" IIRC. In it, R2D2 was portrayed as the PC of an unrepentant powergamer who deliberately took a ton of weaknesses for this character (mute, no legs, no arms, etc) for minmaxing purposes. Doesn't really apply to 5e, which doesn't have a comparable flaws system.

I don't agree that Luke should be an Artificer so he can have a droid with him, though. If anything, use the the sidekick rules and make R2D2 a specialist or expert or whatever they called it. He's basically just a lockpicker/hacker/navigator skill monkey. Steel Defender doesn't really fit R2D2 at all.

He mends, distracts (e.g. provide disadvantage to attackers), defends, and has an attack. Seems fairly clear that it's the best fit in the game. Several people seem stuck on that because it's not a perfect fit. Again, the SD is NOT r2d2, it's just a sidekick drone.

Maybe Create Homunculus spell as a viable workaround to artificer, if you want to skip artificer. But that seems backwards (sequentially) to me.

BTW, thanks everyone for their opinions. Love it. Hopefully through disagreement we can arrive at some solid options for everyone.

Unoriginal

2020-12-19, 08:30 PM

Again, the SD is NOT r2d2, it's just a sidekick drone.

Indeed. Which is why your repeated assertion that it's meant/a good way to represent R2-D2 puzzling.

Quietus

2020-12-19, 09:17 PM

You’re killing me on this one. Who is going to make r2d2 the D&D character? Wont ever happen. He’s a droid. A steel defender is the best match in the game.

Looking at the official Star Wars game, droids are absolutely their own characters. You could represent droids via steel defender, sure. You could also represent them as characters. R2D2, C3PO, and Chopper are great examples of droids best represented via sidekicks or full on PCs, due to their strong personalities. SD is fine for the most generic of astromechs.

CMCC

2020-12-19, 11:25 PM

Indeed. Which is why your repeated assertion that it's meant/a good way to represent R2-D2 puzzling.

He’s the most obvious example.

Looking at the official Star Wars game, droids are absolutely their own characters. You could represent droids via steel defender, sure. You could also represent them as characters. R2D2, C3PO, and Chopper are great examples of droids best represented via sidekicks or full on PCs, due to their strong personalities. SD is fine for the most generic of astromechs.

Yeah that could work too, but you lose the other benefits of artificer, so im not entirely sure it works better. But I’m sure it would work fine.

Witty Username

2020-12-20, 12:00 AM

The divide between wizard(knowledge and study) and sorcerer(bloodline and talent) has started to bug me. It fundamentally assumes a wizard cannot have innate talent for magic or that a sorcerer cannot benefit from study. It also runs counter to how ability scores work, a high int wizard is measurably more talented than a low cha sorcerer. Not to mention Wizards get more passive effects where sorcerers get more active effects that cost resources making wizards feel more innately magical.

As for Jedi.
int makes sense because of knowledge and study.
wis make sense because of willpower and perception.
cha makes sense because... well cha is associated with innate power which fits force sensitive tropes.

I would say dealers choice, blade singer wizard, gloom stalker ranger, and hexblade are probably the best (multi-class before you start ripping out peoples ghosts). AT rogue is decent as well. Paladin is on theme but I feel divine smite is a bit overt for what force users tend to do. Cleric/monk would work but the domains aren't very cooperative, knowledge maybe?

Unoriginal

2020-12-20, 12:04 AM

Witty Username

2020-12-20, 12:57 AM

It's not a question of talent, it's a question of power and where it comes from.

A talented Wizard still got their power by studying, while a smart, studious Sorcerer still got their power by being themselves.

Can anyone be a wizard?

ZRN

2020-12-20, 10:36 AM

The divide between wizard(knowledge and study) and sorcerer(bloodline and talent) has started to bug me. It fundamentally assumes a wizard cannot have innate talent for magic or that a sorcerer cannot benefit from study.

If you look at the 3rd edition description of sorcerers, they’re compared to poets - they have an inborn talent but they have to practice to develop it. (Like the Force.)

Wizards can indeed have an innate talent for wizardry: a high Int score. The formulae they use don’t require any blood connection to the arcane, which is why anyone smart enough who studies the right stuff can cast wizard spells.

Unoriginal

2020-12-20, 10:53 AM

Can anyone be a wizard?

Depends what you mean by "can anyone".

Wizardry can be learned by any sapient creature that spends the time, efforts and ressources to do it, provided they are capable of learning at the moment.

CMCC

2020-12-20, 11:51 AM

A force user lies somewhere between wizard and sorcerer in terms of D&D flavor.

There is an innate connection to the force that must be learned and harnessed via ages old scripture and in person mentoring/training.

If a sorcerer worked with Psi Warrior and Artificer I’d likely lean that direction but it’s not perfect and wizard is fine for our purposes.

CMCC

2021-01-21, 12:55 PM

In case anyone wants to use the guide and go the jedi route, but is hesitant to wear armor because of the perceived exclusion from the jedi ranks:

https://www.starwars.com/news/force-of-fashion-jedi-armor

Jedi, have indeed, worn armor throughout their history - including Clone Wars, which is canon.

I'm personally playing an Artificer 1/ Bladesinger 6 > Battle Smith 3/ Bladesinger 9 Jedi build, so I'll give up armor for the time being. But that can easily change with some magical studded leather or something.

Klorox

2021-02-03, 12:58 PM

CMCC

2021-02-03, 01:20 PM

I focused on Psi Warrior for this guide, with a brief mention of Battlemaster/Eldritch Knight, but after rewatching TLJ I'm wondering if Echo Knight isn't an interesting subclass to add to the mix. Luke doesn't fight alongside his "echo", but his echo certainly fights. Might be a cool combination with Bladesinger.

I agree, plus it's just cool.

"Jedi" don't exist in a vanilla D&D setting, you're just going for a feel here and to adapt it to the world. It's never going to be perfect, but I like what I'm reading.

Yeah I was surprised by how controversial the artificer dip was. Glad you like it.

Angelalex242

2021-02-04, 09:41 PM

Wisdom should be the 'casting stat' for Jedi. For the same reason it's the stat of choice of monks. Jedi are a monk/psi crossclass of some kind.

CMCC

2021-02-05, 03:23 AM

Wisdom should be the 'casting stat' for Jedi. For the same reason it's the stat of choice of monks. Jedi are a monk/psi crossclass of some kind.

Well this is a force user guide. Not a Jedi guide.

Jedi don’t “cast” with their wisdom. Their develop powers via their learned and innate ability to connect to the force. The “weave” in D&D is the closest thing to the force. So learning to connect to the weave and cast spells would be the closest thing in game.

Your in game casting stat doesn’t matter. At all. Especially for thematic character creation.

Kwinza

2021-02-05, 03:53 AM

Fighter - battle master 3 / hexblade - 5 / sorc - x
Pick up the telekinetic feat.

Done and done.

CMCC

2021-02-05, 02:18 PM

Fighter - battle master 3 / hexblade - 5 / sorc - x
Pick up the telekinetic feat.

Done and done.

Where are you getting your healing from? Your sci-fi feel/ your droids or technology? How is that thematically or mechanically better than what's presented here? What force abilities does this cover that wasn't covered in the OP?

You've built more of a witcher than a force user tbh. Almost a perfect witcher actually.

Kwinza

2021-02-06, 08:31 AM

Where are you getting your healing from? Your sci-fi feel/ your droids or technology? How is that thematically or mechanically better than what's presented here? What force abilities does this cover that wasn't covered in the OP?

You've built more of a witcher than a force user tbh. Almost a perfect witcher actually.

Why would you need healing? Only 2 Jedi have ever done that in the movies and quite frankly I’d rather forget that movie existed.

99.99% of Jedi powers are emulated with telekinesis, subtle suggestion and the hexblades sword summon.
Force lightning is a sith power but lightning bolt is your fix and if you really want the heals go favored soul.

Why would you need the ability to bring droids? We are making “a Jedi” not Anakin...

CMCC

2021-02-06, 12:03 PM

Why would you need healing? Only 2 Jedi have ever done that in the movies and quite frankly I’d rather forget that movie existed.

99.99% of Jedi powers are emulated with telekinesis, subtle suggestion and the hexblades sword summon.
Force lightning is a sith power but lightning bolt is your fix and if you really want the heals go favored soul.

Why would you need the ability to bring droids? We are making “a Jedi” not Anakin...

Who is making Jedi? Is the guide’s purpose unclear here?

If the power exists it needs to be addressed. And you’re vastly undercounting the Jedi powers. I’ve done an extensive breakout of their abilities in the OP.

Why droids/artificer? Because force users exist in a sci-fi world of which droids are a major part.

It also works very well mechanically.

Amechra

2021-02-06, 12:44 PM

CMCC

2021-02-06, 03:59 PM

I don't really have anything actually important to contribute to the thread, but I love the idea that Adam Driver (who played Kylo Ren in the sequel trilogy) has force powers in real life. He did all of his own stunts!

Haha I missed that