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MonkeySage
2020-12-13, 01:51 AM
I'm thinking of bringing true dark elves into my campaign setting, as a potential player race- LA of either +0 or +1. I could give them the stats of a PHB elf but that feels too lazy.

Basically, these are not drow- these guys are what drow used to be. Dark complexions, black hair, but typically of chaotic good or chaotic neutral alignment- and they worship the usual elven gods, not lolth.

Ilerien
2020-12-13, 08:41 AM
Candlekeep forum has a fairly recent thread (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20379) about this.

Lore-wise in FR, pre-transformation dark elves had probably the elf (high) subrace like moon/sun elves from FR. If your setting's dark elves differ from FR dark elves, you might want to cook something in between: like, take a high elf, replace Int bonus with Cha bonus and elven weapon training with drow weapon training to reflect the difference. Other differences stock 5e drow have compared to high elves probably reflect the curse that had made them into drow.

Upd: sorry, didn't notice the 3.5 tag.
Again, in FR they were probably mechanically identical to moon or sun elves. I'd go with the sun elf subrace (+2 Int instead of +2 Dex). Then, if you want to elevate them to LA +1, probably the result would be -2 Con, +2 Dex, +2 Int. Then, give them drow weapon proficiencies instead of or in addition to elven weapon proficiencies.

Mehangel
2020-12-13, 02:00 PM
I'm thinking of bringing true dark elves into my campaign setting, as a potential player race- LA of either +0 or +1. I could give them the stats of a PHB elf but that feels too lazy.

Basically, these are not drow- these guys are what drow used to be. Dark complexions, black hair, but typically of chaotic good or chaotic neutral alignment- and they worship the usual elven gods, not lolth.

Why not use dwarf stats? Some settings and real-world mythology support the idea that true dark elves are actually just dwarves.

Maat Mons
2020-12-13, 03:06 PM
Are you looking to keep the idea of female drow being predisposed to becoming Clerics and male drow being predisposed to becoming Wizards? If so, that might inform their ability score adjustments.

D&D drow get +2 each to Dex, Int, and Cha. Intelligence is, obviously, the primary stat of Wizards. Charisma is a secondary stat of Clerics. So keeping one of those is going to push dark elves in a particular direction, class-wise.

But keeping both of them still mostly pushes dark elves into being Wizards. And you'd need some extra penalties, if you're trying to keep it LA +0. (You definitely should try to keep it LA +0.)

I'm inclined to say -2 Str and +2 Dex.

The -2 Str because you kind of need a minus to something. Applying it to any mental ability score would turn players off of certain spellcasting classes. I mean, -2 Cha would kind of fit with elves not being very fond of Sorerery, but it would also punish dark elven Clerics, and drow have a bonus to Charisma, so going all the way to having a penalty instead doesn't feel right. On the physical ability scores, applying a penalty to Con is too punitive, in my opinion. And a Dex penalty seems to go against elven fluff in general.

The +2 Dex is because you kind of need a bonus to something. Again, appling it to a mental ability score would favor some types of caster over others. And on the physical side, a bonus to Con doesn't feel very elven.



Presumably, dark elves would keep immunity to Sleep effects, +2 saves vs. Enchantments, +2 Listen, Search, and Spot, and the ability to notice secret doors, since those are shared by both Drow and surface elves.

Also presumably, dark elves would lose Darkvision and Light Blindness, but gain back Low-Light Vision.

I'd ditch SR. It's typically not given to LA +0 races, and I think it kind of sucks how you have to spend an action to willingly accept buff spells from allies.

That kind of just leaves weapon proficiencies and spell-like abilities. I'm a fan of different elven subraces getting different weapon proficiencies, to reflect cultural preferences. But I have to wonder if the Drow use of hand crossbows isn't meant to be reflective of their home in the underdark. Narrow corridors probably aren't a good place for large weapons like longbows. And the shorter range of hand crossbows doesn't really matter if it's hard to find an open space large enough to make a long shot, and your range is kind of limited by your darkvision anyway. Plus, I think the low damage of hand crossbows might have been intended to tie into their lore of using poison.

I'm not sure on the SLAs. Either way, it feels pretty negligible.

PairO'Dice Lost
2020-12-14, 03:58 AM
Why not use dwarf stats? Some settings and real-world mythology support the idea that true dark elves are actually just dwarves.

{Scrubbed}


Are you looking to keep the idea of female drow being predisposed to becoming Clerics and male drow being predisposed to becoming Wizards? If so, that might inform their ability score adjustments.

[...]

I'm inclined to say -2 Str and +2 Dex.

The -2 Str because you kind of need a minus to something. Applying it to any mental ability score would turn players off of certain spellcasting classes. I mean, -2 Cha would kind of fit with elves not being very fond of Sorerery, but it would also punish dark elven Clerics, and drow have a bonus to Charisma, so going all the way to having a penalty instead doesn't feel right. On the physical ability scores, applying a penalty to Con is too punitive, in my opinion. And a Dex penalty seems to go against elven fluff in general.

Personally, I'd go with -2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Cha.

Two bonuses and two penalties still fits within LA +0, since that's what Fire Elves get. The +2 Dex/-2 Con is the standard high elf adjustment, emphasizing these dark elves' connection with surface elves rather than drow. The -2 Str disincentivizes most melee types, which makes sense given that male and female drow warriors were always a distant third in quantity behind female clerics and male wizards, and the warriors they did have focused mostly on Dex-heavy finesse and TWF styles.

The +2 Cha makes them good spontaneous casters--without favoring either gender, as the guys get sorcerers and warmages and the gals get favored souls and shugenjas--which makes sense because (A) the flavor of elves and magic ("in tune with the magic of the world" and all that) has always sounded more sorcerous than wizardly and gray elves and drow were only given the affinity for wizardry originally because sorcery didn't exist when they were first created and (B) it works equally for both genders whereas an Int bonus favors the male wizards, a Wis bonus favors the female clerics, and a bonus to both Int and Wis would give them too many adjustments and would almost make them better theurges than single-classed casters.


But I have to wonder if the Drow use of hand crossbows isn't meant to be reflective of their home in the underdark. Narrow corridors probably aren't a good place for large weapons like longbows. And the shorter range of hand crossbows doesn't really matter if it's hard to find an open space large enough to make a long shot, and your range is kind of limited by your darkvision anyway. Plus, I think the low damage of hand crossbows might have been intended to tie into their lore of using poison.

Correct on both counts; the first appearances of the drow in 1e modules gave them hand crossbows with poisoned bolts for exactly those reasons.

Keeping the surface elf weapon proficiencies for these dark elves would work fine, since high, gray, and wood elves all sharethe same set already. But it might be interesting to swap out the longsword proficiency for either some kind of light sword (if you go with the -2 Str adjustment, so that all their racial weapons are finesseable) or the scimitar or bastard sword (which aren't finesseable but are associated with redeemed surface drow by way of Drizzt and Eilistraee respectively and so could reasonably have been what the dark elves used before being cursed into becoming drow).


I'm not sure on the SLAs. Either way, it feels pretty negligible.

The drow SLAs, like their weapon proficiencies, are adapted for their subterranean environment: faerie fire to provide a longer-duration light source that doesn't consume oxygen in cramped quarters, dancing lights to see in larger caverns beyond the range of their darkvision, and darkness to shut down monsters (and other drow) that have darkvision.

So the dark elf SLAs should be adapted to their own environment. If they live in forests, give them some plant-related SLAs to fit their surroundings; if they live in plains, maybe some mobility and/or mount-related SLAs to let them cross their territory more quickly; and so on.

Mehangel
2020-12-14, 08:56 AM
{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

You did see that I said "SOME" and not "ALL" or "A MAJORITY" right? If there is ONE or MORE sources that suggest that dark elves and dwarves are the same, then technically my statement is not false. Also, I thought I would point out, that you did not actually say anything that I did not already know.

Silly Name
2020-12-14, 12:34 PM
Well, it's kinda hard to give suggestions without a frame of reference for what you expect "true" dark elves to be and what they should be capable of.

The "generic" D&D lore is that drow are evil elves who were cast out by the rest of the elven people for their wickedness, and usually this involves a war of some sort and Lolth being the central figure responsible for this rift in the elven people. The drow's physical and magical differences from their surface brethren are usually described as being some sort of mark of Lolth's influence, or a consequence of their subterranean dwelling.

Going by this, "what drow used to be" is just elves/High Elves. But I expect this is not what you had in mind - we don't need to know the lore behind dark elves in your campaign, but what are the difference between drow and true dark elves in your mind? Are they still Underdark dwellers? Do they worship Lolth? Is their society similar?

MonkeySage
2020-12-14, 01:48 PM
So as I mentioned in the OP, these dark elves are surface dwellers of typically chaotic non-evil alignment, that don't worship Lolth. Instead they worship the gods of the surface elves. They don't even really look like Drow do- for one they often have black hair.


I like the idea of going with a +2 to charisma, and keeping the surface elven weapon proficiencies.

Elves
2020-12-14, 03:57 PM
{Scrubbed} By contrast, Tolkien's "philosophical difference" of the dark elves merely not having seen the light of paradise or whatever is simply too subtle of a difference. I think the best way to do light and dark elves is to equate them to seelie/unseelie. It makes sense for dark elves to be nocturnal and have darkvision even aboveground. If you keep the part where they go underground, it explains why they adapted well.

PairO'Dice Lost
2020-12-14, 10:34 PM
You did see that I said "SOME" and not "ALL" or "A MAJORITY" right? If there is ONE or MORE sources that suggest that dark elves and dwarves are the same, then technically my statement is not false. Also, I thought I would point out, that you did not actually say anything that I did not already know.

Oh, I assumed you'd be aware of at least some of that since you brought it up in the first place. My post was directed toward the OP as a "Yes, he's right, some sources do say this, but they're wrong, so don't do that" suggestion.


So as I mentioned in the OP, these dark elves are surface dwellers of typically chaotic non-evil alignment, that don't worship Lolth. Instead they worship the gods of the surface elves. They don't even really look like Drow do- for one they often have black hair.

I like the idea of going with a +2 to charisma, and keeping the surface elven weapon proficiencies.

The question is, what makes the dark elves different from the other surface elves such that they're considered "dark"?

Okay, they worship the same gods and use the same weapons and have the same alignment tendencies, so are they "dark" because they live far away from the other elven subraces, or they use kinds of magic that the other elves find distasteful, or they lost a war with the other elves forever ago and are still ticked about it, or they won a war with the other elves forever ago and the other elves are still ticked at them about it, or...? We can't give much advice on what else to do with them unless we know why they separated (or were separated) from the other elves in the firs place.


Having the drow live underground clearly came from that confusion in the Eddas that PairODice mentioned. By contrast, Tolkien's "philosophical difference" of the dark elves merely not having seen the light of paradise or whatever is simply too subtle of a difference. I think the best way to do light and dark elves is to equate them to seelie/unseelie. It makes sense for dark elves to be nocturnal and have darkvision even aboveground. If you keep the part where they go underground, it explains why they adapted well.

This would certainly work if the dark elves are "dark" due primarily to philosophical differences, though most of the time people want to equate "Unseelie" with "evil" (which isn't at all the case) and these dark elves explicitly lean CG/CN so that may not work for the OP's particular campaign context.

Elves
2020-12-14, 11:52 PM
This would certainly work if the dark elves are "dark" due primarily to philosophical differences
As in any good cartoon there should of course be a physical difference to reflect it.


and these dark elves explicitly lean CG/CN so that may not work for the OP's particular campaign context.
OP, just use lesser drow with the weapon proficiencies swapped. Again assuming that they were nocturnal even before going underground. Voila.


+2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution.
Darkvision: Lesser drow can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and lesser drow can function just fine with no light at all. This ability replaces the low-light vision noted for elves.
Weapon Proficiency: As high elves.
+2 racial bonus on Will saves against spells and spell-like effects.
Spell-Like Abilities: A lesser drow with a Charisma score of at least 10 has the following spell-like abilities: 1/day - dancing lights, daze, touch of fatigue. Caster level equals the lesser drow's class levels.
Light Blindness: Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds lesser drow for 1 round. On subsequent rounds, they are dazzled as long as they remain in the affected area.
Favored Class: Wizard (male) or cleric (female). This trait replaces the favored class entry for elves.

Tvtyrant
2020-12-15, 03:52 AM
So as I mentioned in the OP, these dark elves are surface dwellers of typically chaotic non-evil alignment, that don't worship Lolth. Instead they worship the gods of the surface elves. They don't even really look like Drow do- for one they often have black hair.


I like the idea of going with a +2 to charisma, and keeping the surface elven weapon proficiencies.
I would go for a Sartyr/fey approach if they are chaotic. Bardic cantrips and instrument proficiency, they have night vision for partying.

MonkeySage
2020-12-15, 04:37 AM
Honestly, I'm to the best of my ability sticking with descriptions offered for them in existing sources- mainly I wanted to apply stats to something that to the best of my knowledge only exists in the lore. As a case in point, FR.