Linnorm CRs

[Biggus]

Looking at the linnorms in MM2 and (surprise, surprise) their CRs seem a bit off.

The main things they've got going for them are spellcasting and some decent SLAs, but their HPs, saves, AC etc are all very low. I'm inclined to drop the gray linnorm's CR by 1-2 points and the other two by about 3 points, but I'd be interested to hear what others think about them, especially if you've actually used them in a game.

[AnimeTheCat]

Haven't used them in any games, but I will point out that they are all capable of casting 9th level spells as-is. Because so much can be shaped by where the encounter is, how the encounter has been shaped, and how the enemy has been framed, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if you just slap on in a field, you're probably right. They're going to be simple for a party of level 20 characters to beat. But based off of their description, I don't think that's how they would operate. Specifically, from the text they are, "brilliant tacticians and strategists, so they usually delay attacking until conditions are to their advantage." That leads me to believe that they are to be played extremely tactfully, possibly even single-focusing down a party member and then teleporting away or other powerful hit-and-run tactic.

EDIT: the corpse tearer can especially manufacture its own "best case" scenario with its SLAs and spells and seeming focus on necromancy. There are lots of ways that they can all manufacture best case scenarios, but especially that one.

[Biggus]

Thank you for answering, I was starting to fear this thread was going to disappear down the memory hole...


Haven't used them in any games, but I will point out that they are all capable of casting 9th level spells as-is.

Indeed, that's why the first thing I mentioned about them was their spellcasting. But compare them to other creatures which can cast 9th-level spells:

The gray linnorm casts as a 17th-level Cleric. What does it have that's better than an actual 17th-level Cleric? It's damage reduction is useless by that level, its Wisdom is considerably lower than you'd expect the Cleric's to be so it has less spells, its BAB and base saves are lower. The only major things I can see in its favour are its SR and its Shapechange SLA. So while it is a bit stronger than a 17th-level Cleric, it's certainly not dramatically so.

At the other end, the corpse tearer is CR28. A great red wyrm is CR26 in theory; I know true dragons are generally considered under-CR'd, so let's say the red dragon should actually be CR 28 and compare them.

What does the corpse tearer have that the red dragon doesn't? Well, it has energy drain from its claw attacks which is pretty nasty, and it can choose different spells every day, which is a big advantage if it has time to prepare. Oh and higher SR.

What does the red dragon have? Basically everything else. Higher CL, more spells, can learn both Sorcerer and Cleric spells, superior HPs, saves, AC, attacks. As far as I can see, the red dragon would have it for breakfast. The only way I could see the linnorm having a chance is if it had managed to learn a lot about that particular dragon in advance and could tailor its spells to fight it.

If you look at a red wyrm (CR24 in theory) and the dread linnorm you get a similar picture.


from the text they are, "brilliant tacticians and strategists, so they usually delay attacking until conditions are to their advantage." That leads me to believe that they are to be played extremely tactfully, possibly even single-focusing down a party member and then teleporting away or other powerful hit-and-run tactic.


This is true, but again let's make a like-for-like comparison: the great red wyrm has Int 26 compared to the corpse tearer's Int 17. The red is going to come up with far superior battle plans, and as it has higher Wis as well (in fact, all of its ability scores are higher), it has the common sense and intuition to apply them effectively.

So unless +2CR is an underestimate and the great red wyrm should actually be CR30 or something, I don't see how the linnorm CRs can be right.

[newguydude1]

my dm calls mmii unusable crap. everything is over cr-ed by a lot. 1-2 is generous id say more like 3-4.

the update booklet leaves a lot of holes still. my dm just removed mmii from the game.

[ShurikVch]

If you don't like stats of the Linnorm variants from the Monster Manual II, then how about the Swamp Linnorm (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20030822a)?

Also, there were Sea Linnorm (Dragon #356) and Stygian Linnorm (Dungeon #149)
Sea Linnorm is 26HD/CR 21, and Stygian Linnorm - 18 HD/CR 16
Neither of them have actual spellcasting (but Sea Linnorm got CL 16 Shapechange 1/day)

[Biggus]

my dm calls mmii unusable crap. everything is over cr-ed by a lot. 1-2 is generous id say more like 3-4.

the update booklet leaves a lot of holes still. my dm just removed mmii from the game.

Mostly true, a few things are under-CR'd just to keep you on your toes. I like a lot of the monsters in it, but I've learned to check the CR every single time before I use them.

I don't think the gray linnorm is over-CR'd by more than 2, but the others maybe 3-4.