Out of the Abyss DM advice

[harrydo]

My group is currently running Decent to Avernus and having a blast, but we're about to finish and it'll be my turn to DM. The only (generally agreed to be OK) prewritten campaign everyone hasn't played is Out of the Abyss, and it's my turn to DM. I've DM'd it before, but it was my first time DMing and I'm wondering if anyone has advice on how to alter it or how to play certain elements of it. In particular, I'm wondering what people's thoughts are on giving the NPCs to the players to use during combat and what people's perspective on how to run the survival elements and random encounters are. Also, if you have any thoughts on how to link Out of the Abyss and Decent into Avernus I'd love to hear those, too! I think the group would like connections, but obviously since we're running them in reverse order there's nothing prewritten in. Thanks!!

[micahaphone]

I highly suggest you refer to this DM's guide for various chapters and extra encounters/content. I haven't run everything like they did, but it's given me a lot of ideas that I've taken and run with.


https://www.elventower.com/out-of-the-abyss-guide/

[5eNeedsDarksun]

My group is currently running Decent to Avernus and having a blast, but we're about to finish and it'll be my turn to DM. The only (generally agreed to be OK) prewritten campaign everyone hasn't played is Out of the Abyss, and it's my turn to DM. I've DM'd it before, but it was my first time DMing and I'm wondering if anyone has advice on how to alter it or how to play certain elements of it. In particular, I'm wondering what people's thoughts are on giving the NPCs to the players to use during combat and what people's perspective on how to run the survival elements and random encounters are. Also, if you have any thoughts on how to link Out of the Abyss and Decent into Avernus I'd love to hear those, too! I think the group would like connections, but obviously since we're running them in reverse order there's nothing prewritten in. Thanks!!

Yes on running the NPCs in combat; there is no way I could have done it efficiently. That said, there was a steady reduction of NPCs throughout the adventure so that as levels went up and combat got more complex players had fewer to keep track of. To my recollection. in our campaign the Dwarf got fed to the Spiders while the players were locked up, which was a handy way of demonstrating how evil the captors were. The Drow and Jimjar got caught in the webs while escaping, though I put Jimjar back in towards the end of the mod for the players to rescue, which was good because the players liked him and it was a memorable moment. Bupido got eaten by an aquatic troll in the Darklake. I won't reveal what happened to the big hairy yeti looking thing who's name I can't remember, as it would be a spoiler. Most of the rest of the group the party managed to escort back home, which for us was key to moving the adventure forward.
So far as survival and random encounters, once the party had established their routines and travel pace I had those pre-rolled for at least a week of travel in advance. This allowed me to put in a bit more detail like the aforementioned aquatic troll attack where I had them living at the bottom of a waterfall so as to conveniently gobble up whatever came over the falls.
Both I and my players loved this mod, and the exploration and survival elements are something I've missed from some other published adventures.

[dreast]

There’s not enough printed content for leveling without making full use of old-school, repetitive random encounters during the vast travel segments; the authors were not interested in mathing it out. I would not use milestone advancement, however, or you risk the openness of the world and the feeling of the players truly seeking their destiny in an exotic location.

There are TONS of printed Underdark adventures out there. Do not be afraid of using them, or creating your own. Since you have already run the adventure, you know what a tangled mess Gracklestugh is; I’d edit major portions to make it more of an accessible quest hub and less of a dungeon-that-is-also-a-city with a plot railroad straight to some Stone Giants. I’d also consider making some (or all) of the fellow prisoners Tasha’s-style companions; they steal an XP share anyway, so there’s no loss to the party, and several of them can turn on the party, which has more impact if they’re not just another orc or kuo-toa.

It’s not a fantastically written adventure, honestly. The skeleton is good but the meat is nigh nonexistent. Be aware of the limitations and go in with both eyes open. Above all else, make the underdark a living, alien space. And consider altering the rest rules so that the party can’t nova every boring random encounter on their way.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

One thing I managed to weave in that my players really liked was a storyline with Thembershaud and Orcus (as Orcus didn't really have much of a role). The dragon finally became so angry with being captive that he allowed cultists to turn him into a Dracolich (so the undead lord can have an appropriate steed). The party gets wind late game and ends up trying to intercept the Dracolich before he meets Orcus and fights him and his greater mummy rider.

[Necrosnoop110]

I would not use milestone advancement, however, or you risk the openness of the world and the feeling of the players truly seeking their destiny in an exotic location.
Can you unpack that for me I don't quite get what you mean here? I understand the idea of milestone advancement it's the risking part that I don't quite follow. Thanks :)

[PattThe]

OOTA is best done -not- as the book prescribes. If you want to introduce this book's elements into your realmslore campaign just drop your characters in the middle of it and supercharge the encounters with Tome of Foes monsters and more. Take a party from a previous campaign and carry them into OOTA! Send them into the underdark looking for Dawnbringer, or pick your favorite Demon Lord and follow their cults into the deepest chasms of the underdark. Use the 3rd edition Underdark campaign setting guide for enhanced encounter tables at all depths. Expand Juibilex into a complex story of Elemental Evil with all sorts of elder threats like Ghaunadaur, the Princes of the Apocalypse, and even Tharizdun if you're feeling frisky. Remember- Vizeran is a follower of the Eye. Take Orcus's wand and make the entire faerunian continent chasing after him to steal it while he builds up armies each day.
My favorite thing I have done with Baphomet is place him near the Thunder Peaks mountains and descending into the ruins of Arramindaran dwarven ruins to craft a demonic weapon in the HellForge to hunt down Yeenoghu with. You can also write a great and deceptive storyline with a group of northern hunters and rangers who get convinced by the Demon Prince of the Hunt to follow him down into the Labyrinth to combat the ever growing swarm of Gnolls. You could introduce Fraz Urbluu's gem *anywhere* for endless fun.

Honestly you can't go wrong with sending a 5th level party crashing down into the Upperdark arriving on the shores of the Darklake where a Kuo Toan boat offers rides and navigation to any of the main points of interest.

I have been raving about OOTA for years over on the candlekeep web forums. I'm constructing a more advanced Tomb of Brysis Khaem as we speak..

[PattThe]

Can you unpack that for me I don't quite get what you mean here? I understand the idea of milestone advancement it's the risking part that I don't quite follow. Thanks :)

I can maybe explain! If you use Milestone EXP in an open campaign you are telling the players that they will advance the fastest by doing things you have already set out for them. Doing EXP the regular way (improvising large rewards for completing objectives the party decides to seek on their own accord) means the players aren't going to feel pidgeonholed in the campaign. How you award EXP in your campaign is an act of telegraphing to the players on what things they should value accomplishing. If you only give EXP for killing creatures, then your party will warp into a murder-squad because that's how you've restricted the players' fun. If you only give milestones for completing a preset list of objectives then it becomes a scavenger hunt where anything not explicitly stated to be a "plot point" will be avoided by the players.

[PattThe]

SPOILERS!!!

Gargauth. Gargauth is a monstrous entity that spans an incredible history of D&D. If you want to link the Shield of the Hidden Lord and the Rage of Demons, it's not hard! Just do some lore dives on the mad things Gargauth has done in his other aspects of his form. He arranged for the fall of Zhentil Keep and got the cult of the dragon blamed for it! The returning of the war of giants and dragons in SKT might be his fault entirely as well! This guy can absorb devils and demons entirely, and has done so already with the powerful demon Astaroth. Gargauth has walked the world as a Lesser God and was once known as the Lord of the Tenth. You could prepare a vast storyline where he escapes the Shield, absorbs all of the Demon Lords in the Rage of Demons, then waits until Asmodeus splits from Azuth and loses divine status- returning to the Hells to become the true lord of the Tenth and inheriting the Lower Planes in a slow period of the Blood War, possibly absorbing all evil souls in the outer planes.

Or just use the connection stated in Waterdeep: City of Splendor that Gargauth once held the title Gormauth Souldrinker, a title supposedly stolen from him and claimed by Ghaunadaur. Ghaunadaur and Juiblex have a complicated history in the realms. It's up to you what it means (as well as when you date your adventure in relation to the end of the Age of Turmoil and the coming of the Second Sundering- and if the gods are even speaking to their clerics in the lore) to have Juiblex walking the realms while the faith of Ghaunadaur is still present. Officially Ghaunadaur steals all faith meant for Demon Lord of slimes. Perhaps the two aspects of the same inter-cosmic Elder Elemental Eye would fight one another? There's a story from Gary Gygax about how misunderstandings between writers linked Ghaunadaur and Tharizdun accidentally and their titles aren't truly related at all. But I mean, you're the DM. And again.. Vizeran is a follower of the Eye and did kickstart the events of Princes of the Apocalypse with forging the four weapons of the elemental evil cults.

[micahaphone]

I 100% disagree, I did milestone levelling and it's worked out great. The only levelling guidance the book gives is to be level 7 by the time you fight your way out of the underdark. My players did things they were interested in because they were interested in them, not because they hoped it'd get them XP. Sure a DM can and should give out xp in exchange for roleplay and exploration and puzzles and traps but you know what's the single 100% guaranteed way to get xp? Combat. So if you want a party that tackles every problem with combat, focus heavily on the xp system. Also, as a DM I had enough on my plate that I don't need to constantly determine how much xp to give out at the end of sessions, I'm balancing enough already!

But my table is not your table, if your players love tracking their XP and gauging when they'll level up, you can do that.


Personally I DM'd a smaller party of 3, so I started them at level 2 in the slave pens and gave a level up roughly at the end of every chapter, as that was usually the finale of their experiences in a town or other location. It lined up perfectly with having them be the right level for Chapter 7.

I agree with making Orcus more of a big player in the campaign, so I did something vaguely similar to what was here (https://www.elventower.com/out-of-the-abyss-chapter-7-escape-from-the-underdark/). The players, with the assistance of some very grateful deep gnomes, had the choice of either getting to the surface via a very long hike upwards (aka by the book) or by using a forgotten about teleportation circle a day's journey away from the city. They chose the circle.

The circle was in a shallow cave with a cul-de-sac rounding off, the wider mouth full of craters from fireballs and whatnot from the last time this circle was used to escape the drow attack that razed the city previously. One of their gnome guides was proficient with arcana and slowly getting the circle ready when Ilvara showed up with flair and glee at her cornered prey. The party had a great fight while the gnomish wizard needed 10 rounds to get the circle going. Round 8, at the bag of the circle's chamber an undead looking mindflayer appeared and started drawing on the wall. My party was out in the entrace, thoroughly engaged with the drow and close to beating them, so they didn't deal with it. Next round it finishes drawing and big ol' Orcus starts crawling out of the portal, summoning zombies in the space and cackling a dark hollow laugh. The party has to retreat ASAP to the circle and port out of there before they become Orcus' latest toys, while still finishing off the drow hunting party. It was a tense fight that was incredibly exciting.



Personally in Gracklestugh I put a very popular casino/bar/brothel called the Sin & Tonic, which is very weird and off brand for duregar as my players easily noticed. The truth is that it's being run by succubi as a foothold for Graz'zt to start his machinations within the city. He's already got the king through a consort but there's too many power players in the city to rely on just one pressure point.

Also my players ended up doing multiple objectives for the factions of gracklestugh and because they were all offering the same reward ("you can leave"), I homebrewed a few extra rewards based on who they helped. Just to not punish them for going the extra mile.



Edit: for the npcs in combat, my players perosnally didn't want to run them. I did print out pics and weite their stats on note cards to keep handy. My compromise was that at every combat the party could choose one allied npc to fight with them. They usually chose Derendil to have some extra beef taking hits (Ront died in the camp), sometimes they chose Jimjar for sniping. By the time they were level 5 or 6 they usually forgot about it and didn't want or care, it was more a safety/ support system during the early levels.

[dreast]

I can maybe explain! If you use Milestone EXP in an open campaign you are telling the players that they will advance the fastest by doing things you have already set out for them. Doing EXP the regular way (improvising large rewards for completing objectives the party decides to seek on their own accord) means the players aren't going to feel pidgeonholed in the campaign. How you award EXP in your campaign is an act of telegraphing to the players on what things they should value accomplishing. If you only give EXP for killing creatures, then your party will warp into a murder-squad because that's how you've restricted the players' fun. If you only give milestones for completing a preset list of objectives then it becomes a scavenger hunt where anything not explicitly stated to be a "plot point" will be avoided by the players.

This is 80% of it. The rest is a little more game-wonky.

In D&D, what motivates players to send their characters on adventures? Three reasons: plot advancement, level advancement, and gear advancement. Point 1 is weakest when you seek to evoke an open-world feeling; you’re trying to mask that there IS a plot (which is different from there not being a plot, of course). Point 3 is weak in 5e, where the designers have deliberately minimized the need for gear (by shifting power to the characters). If you overgear your players, you need to compensate by increasing encounter difficulty... not impossible with a published adventure like OOTA, but a hassle, which reduces the point of running a published scenario (ease for the DM).

This leaves character level advancement. Do it at milestone, and you’re collapsing points one and two... and we’re already trying to de-emphasize point 1! Especially if you’re going to expand the players’ adventuring options, XP gives a reward that means the players can never say, “Well, that was a waste of table time.”

There’s an existing perfect example in the book already. Why on earth are the players going to interfere between the hook horrors and the gnolls in that little dungeon? Unless you make the players do each dungeon out of an AL-style desire to consume all content from the book (:smallfurious:), there’s nothing for them there BUT XP.

XP takes a small amount of bookkeeping, yes, but it’s the only system that gives freedom to the DM to introduce sidequests in an open world without sacrificing core motivations, whether from other published sources or their own creations.

[Randomthom]

I found the campaign something of a slog though not without it's awesome moments.

I do highly recommend this (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?459858-NPC-Companion-System-Idea) though. Credit to Goober4473.

There are SO many NPCs that if you even allow them monster-style stat blocks, you'll get bogged down in the slowest (read undramatic) combats you've ever experienced. The above system negates that without discounting the often-times very fun NPCs.

[harrydo]

Thanks so much for all of these suggestions! The connections with the Shield of the Hidden Lord are especially interesting, I'll be thinking how to work that in for sure. If anyone has thoughts on that front I'd of course love to hear them.

I'm also really invested in the milestone discussion that's happening. In my old group, we were running with a bit of a clock as one of the members was going to leave, so it helped create a discrete series of objectives to finish "on time." With this group, one of my worries has been the random encounter spam that might come up, and the feeling of emptiness that might come without it. Does anyone have recommendations on additional adventures to graft onto OotA?

Also, I am definitely using that portal/orcus surprise. I love a chance to bust out a big old surprise painted setpiece miniature, and the ability to do that with Demogorgon in Chapter 3 was already getting me amped.

Finally, related to the minis thing above, anyone have recommendations for minis for some of the less-printed demon princes like Jubilex or Graz'zt? Or even Zuggtmoy, I don't love the GF9 mini made for her.

Anyways, thanks so much for the suggestions so far, folks :)

[micahaphone]

Are you looking for additional adventures for more stuff to do in travel or just for xp padding? I homebrewed plenty of interesting stuff in between civilizations and that was fun, but once again I didn't try to plan and track xp, playing the game is reward enough for our group.

Personally I didn't use minis, I use a free photoshop to draw and put it on a tv. But there's someone on reddit who's 3D printed every monster from every book, here's their Out of the Abyss minis and links to the files, if you can get access to a 3d printer (or use some online service to print them)
https://m.imgur.com/gallery/yg16B

[harrydo]

Mostly for stuff to do, my group doesn't like to track XP but having some more meat in the underdark between areas (in things that don't feel like random encounters that exist irrelevantly) seems like it'd be helpful. And thanks for the link! I was hoping for something higher detail, but those can work.

[micahaphone]

Oh sure. My group travelled by boat on the darklake, I enjoyed putting some extra things along the route - duregar lock and dam systems, an ancient and partially submerged castle that just fell down into the underdark/water long ago (that was a fun mini dungeon), tense meetings with drow traders who may or may not have connections to house mizzryn. From the elven tower guide (https://www.elventower.com/out-of-the-abyss-extra-encounters-no-1/) I've taken some of the extra encounters, my group found the kuo toa wedding horrifying even without any combat needed. running into some poor myconids under attack can help the party learn to trust and take care of these poor creatures, priming them to get more invested into Neverlight Grove. Then again, Stool did that plenty sufficiently for my party. I took the "old gambling partners" encounter and spun it into a minor story beat, it seems almost everyone they've met has gambled with (and lost money to) Jimjar, especially any clerics. Because he's a minor celebrity within Blindenstone, my players did some questioning and found out that he's not just some gambler with rogue skills, jimjar is a trickery cleric! This is of course another lie, given his secret divinity that the book suggests in the final chapter.

[PattThe]

I say have the party explore Faerun, get a quest to dive underground, and encounter Demon incursions, madness, cults, and definitive evidence of direct involvement by dem on princes. Then send them up to the surface, offer fast travel by Factions to Candlekeep or another place of lore. Do research, then kickstart something big in the north. The party should find leads to the Darklake area where they can seek out the locations on their own list of connecting dots. Slowly they creep toward Menzob and Araj, where the third act can get under way.

Up.Grade.The.Prisoners. For a higher level party scatter the slaves across the game, having escaped. Give them class levels, feats, or other statblocks.
Here's something to supercharge the Society of Brilliance.
https://www.enworld.org/threads/oota-society-of-brilliance.549033/

EDIT: If you want more with Juiblex.. Look up Clan Hune of the Ilythiir elves. Find their temples to Ghaunadaur. Make something disgusting happen!

If you want more with Zugyytmoy, try playing around with her in a weakened state. I imagine that the moment she hears about Auramycos she immediately rampages through the underdark, swelling with power, and dives head first into the continental psychic fungus. With 100hp regenerating white puff-ball walls and a hostile environment, even she would be forced to expel her resources and flee. If you have a party without access to Banishment-level powers then try having them encounter her while she astrally projects somewhere else. Say she's taking a long rest in a tun-state and is immune to damage. Express her as this huge mass of fungus shaped in subtle ways to appear vaguely as a woman in a bast fetid dress but is unrecognizable. She retreats after recovering into the Neverlight Grove where she researches a weakness in Auramycos. Or perhaps she discovers it while Projecting during that rest. Never pass up an opportunity for them to brush right past a demon lord or their discrete footprint upon the Underdark. Have a bunch of whacky undead powerful beings like Necromancer Alhoons and Vampire Kobolds, Varghouilles and Revenants stomping around the world after being visited upon by the lord of undeath. Give standard gnoll-bands access to Shoosuva's and other crazy bestial monsters. Any random drow patrols that the party encounters should be doing some action directly under the command of one of the houses of MenzoB (if the encounter happens in the North) so that when the party gets to MenzoB they at least have faint reference to one of the names.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Oh sure. My group travelled by boat on the darklake, I enjoyed putting some extra things along the route - duregar lock and dam systems, an ancient and partially submerged castle that just fell down into the underdark/water long ago (that was a fun mini dungeon), tense meetings with drow traders who may or may not have connections to house mizzryn. From the elven tower guide (https://www.elventower.com/out-of-the-abyss-extra-encounters-no-1/) I've taken some of the extra encounters, my group found the kuo toa wedding horrifying even without any combat needed. running into some poor myconids under attack can help the party learn to trust and take care of these poor creatures, priming them to get more invested into Neverlight Grove. Then again, Stool did that plenty sufficiently for my party. I took the "old gambling partners" encounter and spun it into a minor story beat, it seems almost everyone they've met has gambled with (and lost money to) Jimjar, especially any clerics. Because he's a minor celebrity within Blindenstone, my players did some questioning and found out that he's not just some gambler with rogue skills, jimjar is a trickery cleric! This is of course another lie, given his secret divinity that the book suggests in the final chapter.

I think my group liked the Darklake and their time in Graklestaugh (which I'm sure I've mis-spelled) the best. The encounters on the lake were just plain scary, cause well, you are underground and don't breathe water. Some of the random encounters, like you, I turned into full lock systems, which helped the adventuring days be more balanced as well with multiple obstacles and monsters. I found so much in the city to work with and had numerous play days there; this was where the party was finally able to get themselves properly equipped. It didn't hurt that these adventures were about level 3-5 where the party is still vulnerable but are starting get some fun abilities. I through in an Abolith lair once they returned to the underdark as well.
The other thing that sticks out was the giant web cave, which I put in early on. I also used it later to battle the dracolich Themberchaud.

[PattThe]

I think my group liked the Darklake and their time in Graklestaugh (which I'm sure I've mis-spelled) the best. The encounters on the lake were just plain scary, cause well, you are underground and don't breathe water. Some of the random encounters, like you, I turned into full lock systems, which helped the adventuring days be more balanced as well with multiple obstacles and monsters. I found so much in the city to work with and had numerous play days there; this was where the party was finally able to get themselves properly equipped. It didn't hurt that these adventures were about level 3-5 where the party is still vulnerable but are starting get some fun abilities. I through in an Abolith lair once they returned to the underdark as well.
The other thing that sticks out was the giant web cave, which I put in early on. I also used it later to battle the dracolich Themberchaud.

Pro tip.

Voice Themberchaud as if he were Super Kami Guru. Fat dragon is best dragon, use him for comedy!
https://youtu.be/po0OpoY3acE


I had a climactic end of a shuttered campaign finish up with the party doing some egg-swapping sneakiness in the city of Gtugh. They lured Thebmerchaud out in the open as they lumbered their way toward the 'totally not a fake egg' in the center of the settlement by Ladguerer's Furrow.
All of the sudden DEMOGORGON surges out from the coastal part of Gtugh and strides into the city. Themberchaud squares up and the two start a tussle. Demogorgon is dragged down into Ladguerer's Furrow while he tears one of Themberchaud's wings off. Fire and darkness plumed out from the crevasse as the party fled the town and the campaign ended.