When should martials reach AC 18?

[Witty Username]

Alright, AC 18-21 seems to be where you want to get if you are going for good AC. The funny thing is the barrier to when AC 18 is reached seems to depend alot on availability of equipment or gold.
At what level about should these things, like plate or half plate be achieved?
This question is more for str builds as dex builds are more governed by ASIs (as far as I can tell) but opinions on dex builds are still welcome.

[MrStabby]

Worth clarifying if you mean with or without shield etc.. I mean a fighter with sword and shield and defence fighting style obviously gets there a lot quicker than a fighter with a greatsword.

[Gignere]

Alright, AC 18-21 seems to be where you want to get if you are going for good AC. The funny thing is the barrier to when AC 18 is reached seems to depend alot on availability of equipment or gold.
At what level about should these things, like plate or half plate be achieved?
This question is more for str builds as dex builds are more governed by ASIs (as far as I can tell) but opinions on dex builds are still welcome.

You can start with 18 or 19 if fighter with defense style. 18 is really easy to get for a strength build. Chainmail + shield is 18 and defense style is 19.

[Witty Username]

I was thinking about without a shield, at least partially.
I am interested in with a shield as well but I recognize that it involves less DM decision making.

[Unoriginal]

General consensus back in the days was around lvl 5 for plate armor.

[TyGuy]

I.e. when is the right time for the top tier mundane armor.

Somewhere in 2nd tier me thinks.

[Guy Lombard-O]

I was thinking about without a shield, at least partially.
I am interested in with a shield as well but I recognize that it involves less DM decision making.

For a martial with defense fighting style, I'd say level 3 is where the character without a shield gets to 18 AC. Splint armor is only 200 gp and that's usually doable by level 3. Possibly even level 2.

[Meichrob7]

Issue is that medium and light cap at 17 don’t they? So this question is basically “when does the DM start giving +1 gear” which has the general consensus of “Idunno man, I’m not your DM”

[Witty Username]

Issue is that medium and light cap at 17 don’t they? So this question is basically “when does the DM start giving +1 gear” which has the general consensus of “Idunno man, I’m not your DM”

Martials with those can get to 18 with defensive style.
And medium armor master gets to 18 if you have 16+ dex.
So it is at least possible.

[stoutstien]

Alright, AC 18-21 seems to be where you want to get if you are going for good AC. The funny thing is the barrier to when AC 18 is reached seems to depend alot on availability of equipment or gold.
At what level about should these things, like plate or half plate be achieved?
This question is more for str builds as dex builds are more governed by ASIs (as far as I can tell) but opinions on dex builds are still welcome.

Not factoring in class features, AC tend to all fall within a pretty straightforward range. 14-18 to start with and room grows to 17-20.
When talking about AC in general terms it's best to leave anything that augments it out because it muddles the water a bit.

As for when this shift takes place is up to each individual DM. Personality I tend to see the shift fr lv 3-5.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

For a martial with defense fighting style, I'd say level 3 is where the character without a shield gets to 18 AC. Splint armor is only 200 gp and that's usually doable by level 3. Possibly even level 2.

It is mostly Available at level 1 if you start with a cheap weapon(like a club or a staff or someone pet or a goblin, you know, be creative)

(By selling starting equipment for half price or with starting gold instead of equipment).

[SLOTHRPG95]

Obviously there's a large variation between tables or even between campaigns at a given table, but when I run I try to make sure that medium/heavy armor users have their splint/breastplate by around 3rd level, and their (half) plate 2-3 levels later. But as others have pointed out, things like shield use or the appropriate fighting style are going to make a large difference on AC for those who can get them. After all, a newly-minted 1st level Fighter w/ Chainmail, a shield, and the right fighting style has a higher AC than their 5th or 6th level counterpart w/ Plate and GWF. In fact, a VHuman Fighter can start with an AC of 20 via scale mail, shield, defensive fighting style, Medium Armor Master, and 16 AC.

[Dork_Forge]

In the case of plate armor, imo mid tier 2 feels right (is what I generally engineer to happen).

[MrStabby]

In the case of plate armor, imo mid tier 2 feels right (is what I generally engineer to happen).

Yeah, I tend to give out things like plate at about level 8 or so.

Loot is an interesting one for the party - sometimes there is a bit of a conflict: I don't like to give out magic weapons early as that a) reduces significant abilities on enemies like fiends to just being ribbons and b) means that classes like the monk or warlock that get Counts as Magical Weapons type abilities effectively get their abilities ignored. For armour, heavy armour proficiency is an ability that I think players should get to see some use from so I want to see heavy armour in play for them before the end of the game and there is no corresponding obviation of an ability by armourbeing widespread.

[shipiaozi]

Martials with shield reach AC18 by lv1

Plate is really difficult to get in 5e, under AL rules a caster usually get plate in lv8 with half price, LV 11 or 12 for martials.

+1 armor is rare and not suggested before lv5, and players are unlikely to choose them in these "X uncommon Y rare" adventures, so on average I think martial would get them in lv10-15

[moonfly7]

I know it isn't relevant to the plate armour discussion but since both monk and barb ARE martial they technically count, and they can hit 20 AC at level 1 if you get ridiculous rolls. More likely you'd be starting with 17-19 but they can get 18 pretty easy to start. As mentioned defense can get you there pretty quickly, and a high dex build and shield in light armor can get you there pretty quick too. With just +4 dex studded leather and a shield you can get 18 AC at level 1.

Because of that, and how often my parties tend to gravitate towards high Dex/AC characters, I tend to drop full plate pretty early on, if not at character creation. As a rule our groups hand wave it because we don't see the point in the Ranger having the same or higher AC as the paladin. So I'd suggest dropping it pretty early, around levels 1-3.

[KorvinStarmast]

... there is no corresponding obviation of an ability by armour being widespread. Orogs wear plate. They are CR 2.
Get it from them after a battle. Take it to town to have it repaired/fitted to the martial character. Should cost a fraction of new plate, but what that fraction is will vary. All of our tables have done that, though I suspect that in AL that's not an option.

[MrStabby]

Orogs wear plate. They are CR 2.
Get it from them after a battle. Take it to town to have it repaired/fitted to the martial character. Should cost a fraction of new plate, but what that fraction is will vary. All of our tables have done that, though I suspect that in AL that's not an option.

Sounds DM dependent...

What I am missing, and has had me staring at the screen for a minute trying to figure out, is why you quited my text that you did for the statement. This has me thinking I am missing something.

[heavyfuel]

Mid Tier 2 is way too late for plate armor. Mid Tier 2 is when Martials should be getting their +1 plate armor or adamantine plate armor, not regular plate. Personally I tend to allow access to regular plate by the end of Tier 1 or very early Tier 2.

Plus, it's not like there aren't ways of acquring one super early. Orogs have been mentioned, but you can also craft one pretty easily.

A Plate costs 1500 gp, which means you need 750 gp of crafting material (steel and leather) to make it. But steel and leather aren't raw materials either. If we assume the 750 gp is going to be divided into 725 gp of steel and 25 gp of leather, you buy the leather and craft iron into steel, halving the cost again to 362.5 gp (iron) + 25 gp (leather).

But even though iron is found in nature, iron ready to be forged into steel is very different from the iron ore found in nature. Which means you can craft iron ingots from iron ore, halving the price yet again. So we're down to 181.25 gp worth of raw iron ore + 25 gp of leather.

That's 206.25 gp total.

Now, you might be thinking "but downtime!!!!". And I agree, this is going to take forever to craft using the rules for crafting. 5 gp per day means 73 days to craft iron ore into iron ingots, 145 days to craft iron ingots into steel, and 300 days to craft steel and leather into a plate.

Which means it takes 518 days.

That may seem like a lot, but since this is only costing you about 230 gp, you can easily do that before the adventure even start. A Fighter starts with 125 gp, but they can sell their leather armor for 5 gp, their longbow for 25 gp, their two martial weapons (hand crossbows) for 75 gp for a the grand total of 230 gp.

Now you start the game with a Plate armor, two handaxes, and a backpack.

[KorvinStarmast]

Sounds DM dependent... If you have a problem with that, then the problem is at your table. If players and DMs don't work together, the game suffers.

[MrStabby]

If you have a problem with that, then the problem is at your table. If players and DMs don't work together, the game suffers.

What would make you think I had a problem with that?

It was more a comment that some people might find such an expectation less useful as it runs contrary to the culture/suppositions at their table or that they might be fighting enemies other than Orogs.

[KorvinStarmast]

What would make you think I had a problem with that?

It was more a comment that some people might find such an expectation less useful as it runs contrary to the culture/suppositions at their table or that they might be fighting enemies other than Orogs. I again apologize for coming off so grumpy. Maybe today was a bad day to forum.

Something being DM dependent is how the game is made to work. The question as posed, in the OP, is massively subjective in the first place. It's a "should" question, and the answers are all over the map.

In my post, I directly recommended the players and the DM working together on this. I found your comment both irrelevant, and came off as dismissive. But that's how I took it, though likely it was not your intention.
I am having a grumpy day, I'll try to cheer up. Thanks for bearing with me.

[stoutstien]

Really the issue is the strange jump in cost of plate, half plate, and maybe the breastplate.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Now, you might be thinking "but downtime!!!!". And I agree, this is going to take forever to craft using the rules for crafting. 5 gp per day means 73 days to craft iron ore into iron ingots, 145 days to craft iron ingots into steel, and 300 days to craft steel and leather into a plate.

Which means it takes 518 days.


I enjoyed your post as a whole, very creative thinking.

Alas it requires a Rue Goldberg like level of assumptions to reach this result, the least of which is getting the DM to agree to starting the campaign with a Flashback of you in a Cinematic Crafting Montage going back 2 years.

[Dork_Forge]

I enjoyed your post as a whole, very creative thinking.

Alas it requires a Rue Goldberg like level of assumptions to reach this result, the least of which is getting the DM to agree to starting the campaign with a Flashback of you in a Cinematic Crafting Montage going back 2 years.

Yeah over a year of working downtime before the game starts is certainly the least of the hurdles.

Other hurdles:

I don't know about other DMs, but I certainly wouldn't allow a crafting tree that broke it down to such an extent. This isn't Skyrim, it stretches belief that simple Smithing Tools would facilitate refining ore into pure iron, then turning that iron into steel before crafting. I tend to take Smithing Tools as 'you know how to work with metal' not 'you're a metalurgist'

This is presumably using the starting gold? So you woudn't have the default weapons to also sell and then you start the campaign with barely any equipment to actually survive on an adventure with.

[mistajames]

Sword-and-board, then you can get 18 AC at level 1 without really even trying (chainmail + 2). If you're focusing on AC at all, or if you get a piece of magic armor/shield, then you can get there by level 2.

If you're playing something like a two-handed fighting warforged fighter or paladin, it's fairly easy to get to 18 AC at level 1. Splint (17) +1 Warforged +1 Defensive Style.

[JeffreyGator]

Defensive dex fighter vhuman starts at 20 at level 1.

Scale mail 14

+3 dex 16+ and medium armor mastery

+2 shield

+1 defensive fighting style

(granted this is a weird build)

Clerics can reliably maintain 20 at level 1 also.

Chain + shield + shield of faith for 10 minutes.

[Vorpalchicken]

It's been said already, but any heavy or medium armour user with a shield can start with 18 AC. Chain + Shield or Scale +14 Dex + Shield.

Add 1 AC if they are a fighter with Defence Fighting Style.

And if you have: an overly generous stat generation system, a player with stupid degrees of luck, or grubby power gaming cheaters you could have a warforged barbarian with a shield starting with a 23 AC. (Whoops- caught myself before I posted. Normally that wouldn't be higher than 22 AC. But I've seen some games where they foolishly use straight d20s for stat generation)

So I am fine with a starting AC of 18. Nothing a swarm of kobolds can't deal with.

Splint I feel should be attainable by level 2 or 3. Plate and Half Plate by about 5 but it's okay if they get it earlier (through looting or pooling gold perhaps.)

[Naanomi]

A few ways to functionally get 20 at first level... Tortle forge cleric perhaps?

Ultimately AC ranges functionally from what... 13 (wizard/sorcerers caught with Mage Armor down) to... maybe 26 with a Warforged Artificer/Forge Cleric? (Obviously relying on found magic items could go higher)

[Gignere]

A few ways to functionally get 20 at first level... Tortle forge cleric perhaps?

Ultimately AC ranges functionally from what... 13 (wizard/sorcerers caught with Mage Armor down) to... maybe 26 with a Warforged Artificer/Forge Cleric? (Obviously relying on found magic items could go higher)

You can have 9 AC if you catch the GWM Paladin during a long rest.

[Naanomi]

You can have 9 AC if you catch the GWM Paladin during a long rest.
I suppose, I was thinking while actively adventuring (when Mage Armor may still drop and not be recast, especially at lower levels)

[Tanarii]

Going by the DMG hoards guidelines, Half Plate should be available by level 6-7 and Plate by 7-8.

[MrStabby]

I again apologize for coming off so grumpy. Maybe today was a bad day to forum.

Something being DM dependent is how the game is made to work. The question as posed, in the OP, is massively subjective in the first place. It's a "should" question, and the answers are all over the map.

In my post, I directly recommended the players and the DM working together on this. I found your comment both irrelevant, and came off as dismissive. But that's how I took it, though likely it was not your intention.
I am having a grumpy day, I'll try to cheer up. Thanks for bearing with me.

Eh, not a problem.

And I absolutrly agree tha DM discretion is the default, and an important default at that.

I usually find your comments worth paying attention to, so I was genuinely asking what I had missed when I couldn't see how it followed from my quoted comment. It was not intended as a challenge, but as a request for clarification. I feel we need something like the oposite of blue text such that saying "I don't understand" is an articulation of ones own lack of vision rather than implying "you are talking no sense and it does not follow that..."

[Kane0]

End of tier 1

[Delph]

I'v got 23 AC at 4th lvl. Shield+1, defensive style, halfplate +1 (thanks to forgery cleric), cloack of protection.

[JediMaster]

By fourth level my Monk 1/Druid 1 / Cleric (Peace/Life))1/ Wizard 1 can have maximum AC insofar as Shield counts, yes?

[KorvinStarmast]

Eh, not a problem.

And I absolutrly agree tha DM discretion is the default, and an important default at that.

I usually find your comments worth paying attention to, so I was genuinely asking what I had missed when I couldn't see how it followed from my quoted comment. It was not intended as a challenge, but as a request for clarification. I feel we need something like the oposite of blue text such that saying "I don't understand" is an articulation of ones own lack of vision rather than implying "you are talking no sense and it does not follow that..." Here, have a cup of coffee, on me. :smallsmile: I only retained a small amount of your post and that's a quirk of how I do forum stuff. Visually, I dislike the clutter that comes from replicating an entire post when only a small point is something I care to comment about. That means I many cut a bit too much, or maybe not included a multi quote from the post you responded to ... so I gooned up the clarity. Sorry about that.

[Tvtyrant]

Level 1, Tortle with shield or defensive spells. It's my go-to at this point.

[vasilidor]

realistically plate armor can take anywhere from a few days to a few months. this is assuming that you have the materials ready to be made into armor, and varies by how ornate, complex and well fitted you want it. that bit where you take entire year to go from ready material to functional armor is a gross exaggeration. but then DnD has left realism behind long ago and still ****s on martials from what I can see.

[Dork_Forge]

realistically plate armor can take anywhere from a few days to a few months. this is assuming that you have the materials ready to be made into armor, and varies by how ornate, complex and well fitted you want it. that bit where you take entire year to go from ready material to functional armor is a gross exaggeration. but then DnD has left realism behind long ago and still ****s on martials from what I can see.

It doesn't take a year to craft Plate Armor yourself, it takes 30 work weeks (5 day weeks, 8 hours of work a day), which doesn't really seem unreasonable. The numbers we have further upthread that went over a year took the process to refining ore into Iron yourself, converting that into steel and then making armor, which is ridiculous for a number of reasons but time isn't really one of them.

Do you think the crafting rules leave martials at a disadvantage?

[Witty Username]

It takes 30 work weeks, 150 days by xanathar's rules. Or 300 days by phb rules. Not every table uses xanathar's.

[stoutstien]

It takes 30 work weeks, 150 days by xanathar's rules. Or 300 days by phb rules. Not every table uses xanathar's.
If you are using XGtE, you can craft +1 plate or any other common magical armor faster and cheaper than nonmagical plate. Fantasy economics.

[noob]

I think Martials should reach ac 17 or more at level 0.
Seriously the first level is ridiculously swingy even with 18 ac and if you have less then you have ridiculously high risks of dying in the first fights.
ex: The giant owl is CR 1/4 so you can meet it at first level and it have +3 to attacks rolls and deals 2d6+1 which can make unconscious a fighter in a single hit assuming they have 16 con or less.
Meanwhile the fighter can not defeat in a single hit the giant owl unless dealing a critical strike and they do not have action surge yet.
If your fighter have only 16 ac for example then the owl hits on 13 or more which means the owl hits approximatively 1/3 of the time.
Unless your intent is to make people picking str fighters feel bad for all the first levels and favour dex ones heavily you should hand out heavy plate at very low level.

[heavyfuel]

Unless your intent is to make people picking str fighters feel bad for all the first levels and favour dex ones heavily you should hand out heavy plate at very low level.

Completely agree. Dex-based builds in 5e are pretty much objectively better than Str-based builds. Giving the plate early alleviates this issue.

[Tanarii]

If you are using XGtE, you can craft +1 plate or any other common magical armor faster and cheaper than nonmagical plate. Fantasy economics.
It takes 40 workweeks and 2750gp. 30 and 750gp for the plate, and 10 and 2000gp plus a formula and special ingredient for a rare magical item.

[stoutstien]

It takes 40 workweeks and 2750gp. 30 and 750gp for the plate, and 10 and 2000gp plus a formula and special ingredient for a rare magical item.

Nothing states you have to craft the plate beforehand.

[Tanarii]

Nothing states you have to craft the plate beforehand.

No of course not. You could just buy it.

[Witty Username]

Nothing states you have to craft the plate beforehand.

2000 > 750 in any event. Now 750 > 700. 700 being the cost to make splint armor plus the cost to make a cloak of protection.

[Asisreo1]

Mid Tier 2 is way too late for plate armor. Mid Tier 2 is when Martials should be getting their +1 plate armor or adamantine plate armor, not regular plate. Personally I tend to allow access to regular plate by the end of Tier 1 or very early Tier 2.

To be more consistent with the guidelines from the DMG on magic item disrribution, it should technically be impossible for a party to come across a +1 plate armor until Tier 3.

Armor already starts at +1 being rare instead of uncommon in the case of weapons.

The rarity doesn't depend on the type of armor the bonus has, but apparently its distribution matters because the only +1 armor you can get from the tables in tier 1 are leather, chain mail, chain shirt, and scale mail. The benefit being nothing over studded leather except weight when comparing to leather. For Chain Mail, you get the 17 AC of splint without the 15str requirement. Chain Shirt+1 gives nothing special compared to just breastplate.

The benefits of these armor seem to be intentionally minimal when comparing to other options in the DMG. I mean, it doesn't even mitigate damage or give resistances.



A Plate costs 1500 gp, which means you need 750 gp of crafting material (steel and leather) to make it. But steel and leather aren't raw materials either. If we assume the 750 gp is going to be divided into 725 gp of steel and 25 gp of leather, you buy the leather and craft iron into steel, halving the cost again to 362.5 gp (iron) + 25 gp (leather).

But even though iron is found in nature, iron ready to be forged into steel is very different from the iron ore found in nature. Which means you can craft iron ingots from iron ore, halving the price yet again. So we're down to 181.25 gp worth of raw iron ore + 25 gp of leather.

That's 206.25 gp total.

Now, you might be thinking "but downtime!!!!". And I agree, this is going to take forever to craft using the rules for crafting. 5 gp per day means 73 days to craft iron ore into iron ingots, 145 days to craft iron ingots into steel, and 300 days to craft steel and leather into a plate.

Which means it takes 518 days.

That may seem like a lot, but since this is only costing you about 230 gp, you can easily do that before the adventure even start. A Fighter starts with 125 gp, but they can sell their leather armor for 5 gp, their longbow for 25 gp, their two martial weapons (hand crossbows) for 75 gp for a the grand total of 230 gp.

Now you start the game with a Plate armor, two handaxes, and a backpack.
All of this is correct. Though, don't forget you probably need proficiency or at least access to Smith's Tools to make these. Though I'm sure most adventurers can spare 20 extra gp.

The real danger is the DM telling you no and kicking you out the table because he can smell tomfoolery whether that's your intention or not.

[Witty Username]

I am going to assume before campaign downtime is factored into starting equipment/wealth. So I would require 518 days of in adventure down time. As well as gathering the materials.

[Democratus]

No of course not. You could just buy it.

Or steal it!

Have an adventure to heist a suit of plate mail! :smallcool:

[noob]

Or steal it!

Have an adventure to heist a suit of plate mail! :smallcool:

By the time you steal it you saved the world 11 times, doomed it 12 times and exploded it once.

[Witty Username]

Completely agree. Dex-based builds in 5e are pretty much objectively better than Str-based builds. Giving the plate early alleviates this issue.

So would you say at start early or during game but still tier 1 early?


A side question that has crossed my mind. Would you people use a shield until you got splint/plate even if you were planning on great weapon fighting later?

[Lord Ruby34]

So would you say at start early or during game but still tier 1 early?


A side question that has crossed my mind. Would you people use a shield until you got splint/plate even if you were planning on great weapon fighting later?

I'd probably stick with weapon and shield until level three or so, regardless. Low levels are swingy enough that I cannot effective health over effective damage until I have enough HP that I probably won't go down in two hits.

[georgie_leech]

By the time you steal it you saved the world 11 times, doomed it 12 times and exploded it once.

...huh. That actually is almost exactly the plot of 8-Bit Theater, isn't it?