unseenmage
2020-12-13, 09:55 PM
High powered Mythic Gestalt 3.P game again.
Mythic ability that lets you use any magic item creation feat
plus Craft Ooze
plus Living Spells
plus Ocular Spell and Sanctum Spell
plus Ray Coning from Dragon Annual 5 (?)
Equals all sorts of shenanigans.
That said I'm curious how the Playground adjudicates the weirder corners of the rules for living spells.
Craft Ooze normally doesn't have a pricing rubric but at our table monsters are all priced by CR*CR*500gp.
Living spells must be any spell that creates an area or effect (not targeted spells), but nor a spell whose effect is already a creature (such as a summon monster spell).
The above includes ray spells (as evidenced by the official Disintegrate living spell from WotC).
Spells with a casting time of 1 full round or less which are ray spells or spells with a target other than personal can be cast as ocular spells.
Sanctum Spell would drop the spell level by one so we can have up to 8th level spells as Ocular Spells.
All of that said some spell interactions are interesting.
As a mindless creature the Living Spell doesn't get to make decisions or give commands etc. That said just like any other mindless spell repeating mechanic the spell in a living spell would have all of the choices made for it 'at creation' so to speak. It is, after all, a living spell and not a living spellcaster.
So, a Suggestion Living Spell would always give the same preprogrammed Suggestion, an Energy Transformation Field or Hallow/Unhallow living spell would have a single attached spell.
" A creature hit by a living spell's slam attack is subjected to the normal effect of the spell or spells making up the creature, as if it were within the area or effect of the spell itself."
What does this mean exactly. For the engulf ability it's fairly simple to extrapolate that the engulfed subject is under constant effect of the spell.
What of slammed subjects? What is the duration of their being "within the area or effect of the spell itself"? Are they momentarily in the effect with no action or quantifiable duration? or are they affected as if the spell was cast on them?
For damaging effects this is a simple matter of assigning the spell's damage. For the more exotic spells this is more difficult to determine.
And what of relocating spells and calling/creation effects? Does being engulfed in a living spell Magnificent Mansion send you to the mansion until you are freed from the ooze? Does a living spell gate or ocular plane shift or rope trick actually transport you or are you simultaneously transported AND within the ooze?
Does a living create food and drink coat you in foodstuffs? Are the called or created things there as though the spell were cast or is the subject simply affected as if adjacent (or worse!) within the called or created substance or creature!?
Another weird spot of rules is illegal targets for the associated spell. Strangely this doesn't matter. For example if one were to make a living spell that targetted objects and whose effect transmuted the object it would still put the victim in the spell effect but because they aren't an object they would not be transmuted. I'm still looking for examples where illegal targetting can have a beneficial/detrimental effect on the subject.
Hallow and Energy Transformation Field both could be interesting ways to cheat illegal spell effects onto a Living Spell. Though with the ambiguous wording on the slam they might only be useful in the case of engulf.
Interestingly the Awaken ooze spell is spell level 8 and turns the subject ooze into an aberration. This means that even if two living spells wouldnt normally attack one another as food or whatever the same likely isnt true of an awakened living spell and how it could interact with actual living spells.
While spells that affect non-creature or non-living targets are potential living spells getting your living spell to attack stuff that it wouldnt eat might prove difficult. For example, say you want a living spell to roam your compound and slam your golems to give them some beneficial buff. They probably won't as your golems arent likely a threat or a food source. Same goes for using a living spell to repeatedly affect an object with Hardening or Suspension. Why would your living spell be engulfing or slamming an inanimate object?
While I can imagine some workarounds that make this a minor issue I still thought it bore mention.
There are other weird corner cases too I'm sure. I eagerly look forward to finding them. :)
For me a guiding principles to adjudicating these creatures is that:
1) They are not casting the associated spell; only the spell effect is being inflicted on the victim.
2) The recipient of a slam or engulf is only "subjected to the normal effect of the spell or spells making up the creature, as if it were within the area or effect of the spell itself".
3) Living Spells can cause a creature to be affected by a spell that wouldnt normally be able to target or affect them.
4) The Living Spell only affects the subjects of its slams or engulf with the associated spell. This means that Chain metamagic or Enlarge metamagic isnt going to do much as the spell is not cast.
5) Living Spells are mindless and do not get to make decisions or make demands or execute tactics.
6) The associated spell effect is a single spell with all of its decisions and choices made in advance when the spell is first incorporated into the ooze. Which would be just like every other form of mindless spell repitition eg resetting magic traps etc.
Mythic ability that lets you use any magic item creation feat
plus Craft Ooze
plus Living Spells
plus Ocular Spell and Sanctum Spell
plus Ray Coning from Dragon Annual 5 (?)
Equals all sorts of shenanigans.
That said I'm curious how the Playground adjudicates the weirder corners of the rules for living spells.
Craft Ooze normally doesn't have a pricing rubric but at our table monsters are all priced by CR*CR*500gp.
Living spells must be any spell that creates an area or effect (not targeted spells), but nor a spell whose effect is already a creature (such as a summon monster spell).
The above includes ray spells (as evidenced by the official Disintegrate living spell from WotC).
Spells with a casting time of 1 full round or less which are ray spells or spells with a target other than personal can be cast as ocular spells.
Sanctum Spell would drop the spell level by one so we can have up to 8th level spells as Ocular Spells.
All of that said some spell interactions are interesting.
As a mindless creature the Living Spell doesn't get to make decisions or give commands etc. That said just like any other mindless spell repeating mechanic the spell in a living spell would have all of the choices made for it 'at creation' so to speak. It is, after all, a living spell and not a living spellcaster.
So, a Suggestion Living Spell would always give the same preprogrammed Suggestion, an Energy Transformation Field or Hallow/Unhallow living spell would have a single attached spell.
" A creature hit by a living spell's slam attack is subjected to the normal effect of the spell or spells making up the creature, as if it were within the area or effect of the spell itself."
What does this mean exactly. For the engulf ability it's fairly simple to extrapolate that the engulfed subject is under constant effect of the spell.
What of slammed subjects? What is the duration of their being "within the area or effect of the spell itself"? Are they momentarily in the effect with no action or quantifiable duration? or are they affected as if the spell was cast on them?
For damaging effects this is a simple matter of assigning the spell's damage. For the more exotic spells this is more difficult to determine.
And what of relocating spells and calling/creation effects? Does being engulfed in a living spell Magnificent Mansion send you to the mansion until you are freed from the ooze? Does a living spell gate or ocular plane shift or rope trick actually transport you or are you simultaneously transported AND within the ooze?
Does a living create food and drink coat you in foodstuffs? Are the called or created things there as though the spell were cast or is the subject simply affected as if adjacent (or worse!) within the called or created substance or creature!?
Another weird spot of rules is illegal targets for the associated spell. Strangely this doesn't matter. For example if one were to make a living spell that targetted objects and whose effect transmuted the object it would still put the victim in the spell effect but because they aren't an object they would not be transmuted. I'm still looking for examples where illegal targetting can have a beneficial/detrimental effect on the subject.
Hallow and Energy Transformation Field both could be interesting ways to cheat illegal spell effects onto a Living Spell. Though with the ambiguous wording on the slam they might only be useful in the case of engulf.
Interestingly the Awaken ooze spell is spell level 8 and turns the subject ooze into an aberration. This means that even if two living spells wouldnt normally attack one another as food or whatever the same likely isnt true of an awakened living spell and how it could interact with actual living spells.
While spells that affect non-creature or non-living targets are potential living spells getting your living spell to attack stuff that it wouldnt eat might prove difficult. For example, say you want a living spell to roam your compound and slam your golems to give them some beneficial buff. They probably won't as your golems arent likely a threat or a food source. Same goes for using a living spell to repeatedly affect an object with Hardening or Suspension. Why would your living spell be engulfing or slamming an inanimate object?
While I can imagine some workarounds that make this a minor issue I still thought it bore mention.
There are other weird corner cases too I'm sure. I eagerly look forward to finding them. :)
For me a guiding principles to adjudicating these creatures is that:
1) They are not casting the associated spell; only the spell effect is being inflicted on the victim.
2) The recipient of a slam or engulf is only "subjected to the normal effect of the spell or spells making up the creature, as if it were within the area or effect of the spell itself".
3) Living Spells can cause a creature to be affected by a spell that wouldnt normally be able to target or affect them.
4) The Living Spell only affects the subjects of its slams or engulf with the associated spell. This means that Chain metamagic or Enlarge metamagic isnt going to do much as the spell is not cast.
5) Living Spells are mindless and do not get to make decisions or make demands or execute tactics.
6) The associated spell effect is a single spell with all of its decisions and choices made in advance when the spell is first incorporated into the ooze. Which would be just like every other form of mindless spell repitition eg resetting magic traps etc.