Reworking Animate Dead

[LudicSavant]

I've gone on the record in the past saying that I consider Animate Dead (and Conjure Animals, for that matter) one of the larger missteps in 5e's design.

In the past, Animate Dead was a more interesting spell. A DM could hand a Necromancer player interesting monster corpses as a sort of loot. There was a lot of fun inherent in discovering a new kind of pet this way. But in 5e, that got nixed... presumably a tradeoff to make the spell easier to balance. Trouble is... they don't seem to have improved the spell's balance, either, giving us the worst of both worlds.

To summarize my issues...
1) Animate Dead allows you to 'hedge spell slots,' essentially converting downtime into minions in a way that has no impact on your spell slots on the actual day of adventure. All you have to do is cast/recast your Animate Dead spell right before you go to bed, rather than in the morning. That's it.
2) Getting the spell on a Warlock (or otherwise getting it on a short rest cooldown) is a gateway to crazy town.
3) Animate Dead encourages you to make big ol' swarms and only big ol' swarms, which can bog down some tables.
4) Animate Dead doesn't let you make non-humanoid skeletons, which I find narratively unsatisfying.

I'm thinking of how I would go about fixing the issues that I personally have with it. My initial thoughts are:

- You 'invest' the spell slot used to animate the dead. It doesn't recharge until you no longer have the minions (you still need to take an Action to reassert control at least once every 24 hours, which works exactly like reasserting control currently does). This would nix things like short rest charge on Warlocks, or 'slot hedging' on, well, everyone. This basically just ensures that your Animated Dead actually cost you spell slots. I've already used a similar houserule for Goodberries (so that people don't just convert all their leftover spell slots to it at the end of an adventuring day) and it's been working well so far.

- You can make bigger skeletons/zombies, but they count as multiple skeletons/zombies against your minion cap. For example, if you could control 8 zombies, maybe a big one would count as 4. The question then would then be producing the stat blocks for these alternatives, and making the templates generalized enough that they can be adapted to a wide variety of creatures.

I guess what I'm looking for is a customizable template that allows a DM to quickly whip together some power-appropriate zombies equivalent to (X number of normal skeletons/zombies). I think this would be an improvement both to the narrative and fun of playing a Necromancer, not only because it's fun to raise your Fire Giant foe from the dead, but also because many would prefer a single big monster to clogging the map with a swarm of mooks.

What are your thoughts on Animate Dead? How would you go about addressing it in a way that still feels fair to, say, a Necromancer Wizard? Do these changes seem appropriate, or do you feel that the spell is supposed to give you slot-free minions or work on short rest casters?

[Kane0]

- You can make bigger skeletons/zombies, but they count as multiple skeletons/zombies against your minion cap. For example, if you could control 8 zombies, maybe a big one would count as 4. The question then would then be producing the stat blocks for these alternatives, and making the templates generalized enough that they can be adapted to a wide variety of creatures.


I do this as DM, using the XP value of the zombies/skellies you could summon. Really cuts down on combat participant bloat to have one minotaur skeleton rather than a squad of regular ones.

[LudicSavant]

I do this as DM, using the XP value of the zombies/skellies you could summon. Really cuts down on combat participant bloat to have one minotaur skeleton rather than a squad of regular ones.

Can you share the specifics of your system?

[stoutstien]

Interesting idea. I use HD dice for animate dead/ create undead but the spell slot being held by the summon is a good one.

I'm been looking at the sidekick rules to see if there is a clean way of 'upcasting' animate dead.

[Democratus]

One easy solution.

Have the PC research their own spell that accomplishes what they need.

Or, if you don't like creating new spells, have there be a magic item that can be the object of a quest.

[LudicSavant]

Interesting idea. I use HD dice for animate dead/ create undead but the spell slot being held by the summon is a good one.

I'm been looking at the sidekick rules to see if there is a clean way of 'upcasting' animate dead.

What are the specifics of your HD rule?

[stoutstien]

What are the specifics of your HD rule?

Basically to maintain the each skeleton or zombie the caster must sacrifice an available HD at a 1:1 ratio. During a LR the caster can make a Con check (DC 10) to recover one of this spent HD.
Starts cheap but gets difficult and risky to maintain a horde.

Create undead just costs more HDs.

[Valmark]

I assume you already know of the templates for skeletons and zombies in the DMG?

[J-H]

I haven't really thought about this subject before, but it's a good point. I agree with keeping the spell slots "invested."

Some sort of CR or HD calculation is necessary for higher level undead. Unfortunately, the base Animate Dead uses a 3rd level slot to create a single CR 1/4 creature that hits for, at best, +4 for 1d6+2 damage. You can equip it with better gear, but then there's a lot of bookkeeping. By 5th level, you're doing 3 skeletons. Then at 6th level slots, there's power jump to Create Greater Undead.

At this point, I'm just going to throw some numbers out here for comparison, without arriving at a true conclusion.

Create Greater Undead creates:
6th 3 ghouls
7th 4 ghouls
8th 5 ghouls or 2 ghasts or wights
9th 6 ghouls, 3 ghasts or wights, or 2 mummies

3 ghouls radically outclasses 4 skeletons
2 ghouls per ghast or wight
3 ghouls per mummy

A ghoul has: AC like a skeleton. HP like a zombie. CR 1. To-hit bonus of a skeleton (+4). 2 attacks instead of one, and a DC 10 paralysis rider.

6 ghouls (9th level spell slot) have, collectively:
~130 HP
12 attacks per round at +4
Total potential damage of 12d6+12d4+24 = 96 damage if everything hits
Possibly 6 DC 10 CON saves.

I'd put a mob of 6 ghouls, as a single monster with that many attacks, at around CR6 or CR7, with a warning that it's super-swingy based on the presence of AOEs and high vs. low ACs.
Since 2 mummies are CR3 x 2, I feel OK about that.

If you start allowing things like Zombie Large Dragon, you're going to very quickly either restrict it to high level slots, or you'll break all the existing spells and may as well just redo the entire system.

Perhaps a Undead CR = level/3, where an 18th level wizard can animate up to a single CR 6 undead? This locks off most of the high CR beasts, just like a Moon Druid's form options do.

[LudicSavant]

Basically to maintain the each skeleton or zombie the caster must sacrifice an available HD at a 1:1 ratio. During a LR the caster can make a Con check (DC 10) to recover one of this spent HD.
Starts cheap but gets difficult and risky to maintain a horde.

Create undead just costs more HDs.

But like how many do you have, etc?


I assume you already know of the templates for skeletons and zombies in the DMG?

Yes.

[stoutstien]

But like how many do you have, etc?

They can have as many as they want within a limitations of the spell as printed. I've done case by case rulings if they want something like a patchwork ogre. Strangely I have yet to have a player who really wants to play a necromancer of any sort. I wish someone would so it would give motivation to give this deeper thought.

[mistajames]

Why not follow scaling per the Conjure Animals/Summon Minor Demons spell? Aka:

2 Skeletons (CR 1/4) = One CR 1/2 Undead
2 CR 1/2 Undead = One CR 1 Undead
2 CR 1 Undead = One CR 2 Undead

Each Animate Dead casting can give you an undead beastie that scales with the above, with Necromancer giving you +1 Skeleton worth of minions, and bonuses to the new minion accordingly.

For a Basic Wizard:
Animate Dead L3: One Skeleton
Animate Dead L4: One Skeleton, One CR 1/2 Undead
Animate Dead L5: One Skeleton, One CR 1 Undead
Animate Dead L6: One Skeleton, One CR 1 Undead, One CR 1/2 Undead
Animate Dead L7: One Skeleton, One CR2 Undead.

You can shave off the extra Skeleton for simplicity, but I probably wouldn't.

For a Necromancer
L3: One CR 1/2 Undead
L4: One CR 1 Undead
L5: One CR 1 Undead, One CR 1/2 Undead
L6: One CR 2 Undead.

Any balance issues can be resolved in stating that the undead cannot have resistance to nonmagical B/P/S attacks (avoiding mass animating Shadows) or "intangible" undead.

[Kane0]

Can you share the specifics of your system?

If you expend slots to have 3 skellies thats worth the same as 2 warhorse skeletons (300xp). Similarly a Minotaur skeleton is worth 5 regular skellies (450xp)

But CR is probably a cleaner way to do it, and the invested spell slot idea sounds much better than constant renewal (with shenanigans).

[Segev]

Given the precedent set by the Zombie Beholder, it seems to me that you can probably do a skeleton/zombie template that does...anything, really. The Zombie Beholder drops from CR 11 to CR 5, loses 8 HD (19 vs. 11), loses some, but not all, eye rays, drops to 3 Int (whereas normal humanoid zombies are 6 Int), and gains Undead Fortitude (which is the only universally zombie ability, I think).

The ogre zombie, on the other hand, GAINS HD, but stays at 2 CR.

To make a Zombie template, a few key considerations seem to persist: They get undead fortitude, and they get only one attack per round. No multiattack, and any multiattack on the base monster is dropped. This can be made up for by boosting its damage with its single attack, boosting its defense with more hp, or adjusting the CR down.

Skeletons don't have any examples like the Zombie Beholder, but we can see that they don't tend to lose any attacks, and keep things like the Minotaur's Charge feature. They drop to lower intelligence, gain vulnerability to bludgeoning, and seem to lose hp and drop CR unless they're already very low CR (in which case they gain a bit of hp and CR).

This isn't a uniform template, obviously.


For fast rules, I'd do the following:
Skeletons
Drop to 6 Int, or by 1 if 6 or lower, minimum 1
Gain vulnerability to bludgeoning damage and immunity to necrotic damage
Lose spellcasting features that use spell slots (but consider animating as a Flameskull, instead)
Zombies
Drop to 6 Int, or by 1 if 6 or lower, minimum 1
Gain Undead Fortitude
Lose any feature that gives more than one attack or attack-like action per round, reducing number of actions given or removing them entirely
Lose spellcasting features that use spell slots (but consider animating as a Flameskull, instead)
Flameskulls
If you are animating a spellcaster or creature that uses spell slots for casting spells, you can, instead of animating as a skeleton or zombie, animate it as a Flameskull.
Cosmetically, it's a skull of whatever creature type it was. Mechanically, just use the rules for the Flameskull, possibly changing its size if the head is particularly large or small.

I strongly recommend, after a game session where these quick rules are used, any longer-term or common monsters made into minions get a rebuild using the DMG's guidelines for CR. Consider using the CR-vs-numbers rate given in conjure woodland beings and the like to determine how many CR 1/4 skeletons or zombies a given creature is. Make the CR as a zombie or skeleton of the final creature whatever it needs to be to get a "good fit" build for the creature as a skeleton or zombie, and then determine how many "slots" it takes up in committing the animate dead spell to it. (I do like the idea of "committing" spells.)

[Kane0]

Or spitballing a 3rd option, you build a minion as a sidekick with spell levels invested equal to the level of the sidekick.

[stoutstien]

Or spitballing a 3rd option, you build a minion as a sidekick with spell levels invested equal to the level of the sidekick.

What I was hinting at early. I don't know if a straight spell lv: sidekick level is balanced but I haven't done more than giving the rules a passing glance yet.

[Kane0]

What I was hinting at early. I don't know if a straight spell lv: sidekick level is balanced but I haven't done more than giving the rules a passing glance yet.

Good point, would probably want more spell levels than hit dice, 2:1 or even 3:1 would be easy to remember and would probably be better balanced.

[stoutstien]

Good point, would probably want more spell levels than hit dice, 2:1 or even 3:1 would be easy to remember and would probably be better balanced.

Man I would love to have some skelly mage minions like diablo 2.

[Ettina]

I haven't really thought about this subject before, but it's a good point. I agree with keeping the spell slots "invested."

Some sort of CR or HD calculation is necessary for higher level undead. Unfortunately, the base Animate Dead uses a 3rd level slot to create a single CR 1/4 creature that hits for, at best, +4 for 1d6+2 damage. You can equip it with better gear, but then there's a lot of bookkeeping. By 5th level, you're doing 3 skeletons. Then at 6th level slots, there's power jump to Create Greater Undead.


Create Undead also makes sentient undead, meaning that you could potentially negotiate with them to maintain control without expending further spell slots. Ghouls are motivated by hunger for the flesh of the living, so "come fight with me and you can eat all the corpses we make" seems like a reasonable deal for persuading one.

[LudicSavant]

What I'd like at this point is a good, solid set of non-humanoid skeletons/zombies and a rating for how many 'normal' skeletons/zombies they're worth. Probably something kind of like the "Spirit" monsters in the sense that they are adaptable for representing a variety of possible creatures the DM could provide corpses of.

[Greywander]

What makes the most sense to me is to use the skeleton and zombie templates from the DMG, and then treat Animate Dead as having a CR budget. If you could normally raise four CR 1/4 skeletons, then you could instead raise one CR 1 creature as a skeleton. This means you have to upcast in order to raise higher CR creatures, or to reassert control over them. The difficulty would then be in figuring out how a creature's CR changes by raising it as a skeleton or zombie.

[SociopathFriend]

To summarize my issues...
1) Animate Dead allows you to 'hedge spell slots,' essentially converting downtime into minions in a way that has no impact on your spell slots on the actual day of adventure. All you have to do is cast/recast your Animate Dead spell right before you go to bed, rather than in the morning. That's it.
2) Getting the spell on a Warlock (or otherwise getting it on a short rest cooldown) is a gateway to crazy town.
3) Animate Dead encourages you to make big ol' swarms and only big ol' swarms, which can bog down some tables.
4) Animate Dead doesn't let you make non-humanoid skeletons, which I find narratively unsatisfying.


Number 3: I think a core problem with this is what people want vs what they should have. You're ordering a horde of (generally) unthinking and unfeeling undead- not a swat team. You should not (I would argue can not but we'll not dig that particular grave) micro-manage them. Fine-tuned movements and strategies should be out of the question. You should be able to order them all to jump one target or order them to have simple orders like attack all nearby enemies.

Both of these should be doable in short timeframes. Pick the target, figure out how many undead can reach, and roll a bunch of D20s followed by the damages. If you pick multiple targets then do the same and work your way across the grid if you're using it. If your DM is willing to let your undead cram 2 to a square without penalizing you (double-edged sword imo, doubly susceptible to AoE but twice as many potential attacks and subsequent damage) you can worry less about spacing.

There is definitely no fast answer for recording damage and that's true. Your best bet is simply to have a sheet with your expected undead stats and mark the HP off as you go- it's not like their stats will change much unless you're leveling like mad and likewise they generally don't heal. Look into games built for that sort of thing like Warhammer and a given number of boxes you can mark off.

I have definitely been the Necromancer of a group and still finished my turns faster than many players without any minions to command at all. It magnifies bookkeeping issues a player may have and if they're not good at it then they shouldn't be playing any subclass with minions BUT if you stay on-track and are prepared it will ultimately not be hard to avoid bogging down the table.

[Ir0ns0ul]

I actually think that both Zombies and Skeletons have a fair durability, specially if they were created by a Necromancer. My biggest pain point is their suboptimal offensive options. I have seen some trials like getting +1 weapons or even the questionable combo with Magic Stone.

What about Dragon’s Breath in a Zombie? Sounds much more reliable than a Familiar.

[TheUser]

I actually think that both Zombies and Skeletons have a fair durability, specially if they were created by a Necromancer. My biggest pain point is their suboptimal offensive options. I have seen some trials like getting +1 weapons or even the questionable combo with Magic Stone.

What about Dragon’s Breath in a Zombie? Sounds much more reliable than a Familiar.

What is so questionable about the magic stone combo? It's a perfect example of creative use of D&D mechanics to get the most out of a cantrip.

At most a Necromancer will spend a bonus action to deal 3d6+15+12 damage in tier 2 (OK that's actually a hilarious amount of damage damn....)

But!

You have to keep the animated dead closeby in order to use it which opens them up to be hit by area of effects.

Beyond that combo or insanely abundant +1 weapons, I find Animate Dead drops off very hard in tier 3, (even for Necromancers) where AoE is harsh and plentiful, resistance to normal weapons become somewhat common place, and AC's are generally high enough that attacking without advantage will yield pitiful results on a skeleton's +4 to hit...and that's a good thing.

I'm going to play devils advocate here and say that Animate Dead is exactly where it should be. Staggeringly strong for Necromancers, neat for establishing fodder and action economy inflation or cover proxies for everyone else.

Oh that's right...99% of people never use the fabricate spell and don't employ animated dead to simply carry around big barriers to act as cover...

The subtext of Animate Dead is "cast this spell with a 3rd level slot to re-assert control of 600lbs of carry weight for 24 hours"

Rolling barricades, battering rams, trebuchets...people always look at me funny when my tier 2 wizard has proficiency in Carpentry and Smith's Tools until my skeletons are wheeling around mobile cover for my party mates to hide behind.

Is it fool proof? Hardly. But it adds a strategic depth to the spell that I find far more enjoyable than if Animate Dead only made 1 strong summon (which is somewhat redundant for Necromancers with Command Undead) or several somewhat strong summons (which would be overpowered).

[Ir0ns0ul]

What is so questionable about the magic stone combo? It's a perfect example of creative use of D&D mechanics to get the most out of a cantrip

Sorry, I think I used the wrong wording. English is not my first language. I was meaning questionable in the sense of quality and applicability: requires multiclass or a feat, the aforementioned issue with positioning and even though it’s a bonus action cantrip, you cannot cast a real spell.

So yeah, sounds good but definitely not broken.

[SociopathFriend]

Oh that's right...99% of people never use the fabricate spell and don't employ animated dead to simply carry around big barriers to act as cover...

The subtext of Animate Dead is "cast this spell with a 3rd level slot to re-assert control of 600lbs of carry weight for 24 hours"

Rolling barricades, battering rams, trebuchets...people always look at me funny when my tier 2 wizard has proficiency in Carpentry and Smith's Tools until my skeletons are wheeling around mobile cover for my party mates to hide behind.

I played around with Enlarge/Reduce and making a very big skeleton with a very big shield once- that was fun. Particularly when we found a Wizard and I had the Skeleton trap him under a metal pot so he couldn't see to cast spells.

[LudicSavant]

At this point what I'm looking for is specific suggestions for modular skeleton/zombie statblocks and the balance thereof. Think something like the "spirit" summon statblocks from Tasha's, except rated by 'how many skeletons this costs' vs 'what spell level this is.'

Balanced assuming the 'the slot stays invested' rule suggested above is in place.

I advise *not* simply using the Conjure Animals conversion, since I feel that conversion isn't well balanced against itself (e.g. swarms are generally superior to single creatures, etc). And when people think of well designed and balanced spells, usually 'Conjure Animals' isn't the first thing to leap to mind, as it were.

[Ir0ns0ul]

I came to this conundrum very recently with my DM and after some laborious research and tests, our simple solution to the CR 1/2 Skeleton was to break down into two very straightforward options:

1. Skeleton Bruiser (Template: Warhorse Skeleton ( https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/warhorse-skeleton))
- Changed from Large to Medium
- We kept the exact same stat blocks, including attack options and etc
- Speed of course was downgraded to 30 ft
- AC can be upgraded to Scale + Shield if there’s enough money available
- Replaced “Hooves” to “Greatsword” attack, but any martial weapon is available to these bad boys

2. Skeleton Scout (Templates: Skeleton ( https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/skeletoN) + Scout ( https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/scout))
- Kept the exact stat blocks from the Skellies
- Added one more HD (1d8+2), totalizing 19 HP
- AC can be upgraded to Chainmail + Shield if there’s enough money available
- Kept the Multiattack option from Scout, Longbow attack included

You can “exchange” two CR 1/4 Skellies for one Skeleton Bruiser or Scout. Undead Thrall remains the same, but you can chose to create ond CR 1/2 Skeleton instead of two CR 1/4.

[LudicSavant]

I came to this conundrum very recently with my DM and after some laborious research and tests, our simple solution to the CR 1/2 Skeleton was to break down into two very straightforward options:

1. Skeleton Bruiser (Template: https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/warhorse-skeleton]Warhorse ( [url) Skeleton[/URL])
- Changed from Large to Medium
- We kept the exact same stat blocks, including attack options and etc
- Speed of course was downgraded to 30 ft
- AC can be upgraded to Scale + Shield if there’s enough money available
- Replaced “Hooves” to “Greatsword” attack, but any martial weapon is available to these bad boys

2. Skeleton Scout (Templates: Skeleton ( https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/skeletoN) + Scout ( https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/scout))
- Kept the exact stat blocks from the Skellies
- Added one more HD (1d8+2), totalizing 19 HP
- AC can be upgraded to Chainmail + Shield if there’s enough money available
- Kept the Multiattack option from Scout, Longbow attack included

You can “exchange” two CR 1/4 Skellies for one Skeleton Bruiser or Scout. Undead Thrall remains the same, but you can chose to create ond CR 1/2 Skeleton instead of two CR 1/4.

Thanks for this response! This is exactly the sort of input I'm looking for. :smallsmile:

[Desteplo]

TL:DR (aside from OP)
What I did was see that they’re 1/4 CR Per target
-each recast allows 4 targets

For each size lvl, +1
For each cr lvl (1/2, 1, 2, etc), +1

4 Goblin? 2 draft horses? 1 dire wolf?!

Upcasting increases the amount of targets. So they can do that too to grab a stronger minion

I had fantasies of the death cleric in the party using undead elephants as mounts pulling a dark Aladdin next time arriving in the city