New bladesinger/EK = Good?

[Heavenblade]

So basically, the new bladesinger's 6th level ability gives you the ability to cast a cantrip instead of an attack when using yhe attack action. Would this qualify as "using your action to cast a cantrip" for the purpose of Eldritch knight's war magic ability?

If yes, Bladesinger 9/EK 11 for the extra attack or Bladesinger 10/EK 10 for song of defense just became VERY cool...you can basically use a bonus action in order to get your full extra attack feature + a cantrip.


I suppose RAI it wouldn't work, but do you think RAW supports this build? Eldritch knight specifies "use your action to cast a cantrip", not "cast a cantrip as an action". Obviously they didnt plan this far ahead when designing the EK, and yet - when using bladesinger's extra attack, you ARE using your action to cast a cantrip - you are just ALSO using it to do something else.

[diplomancer]

So basically, the new bladesinger's 6th level ability gives you the ability to cast a cantrip instead of an attack when using yhe attack action. Would this qualify as "using your action to cast a cantrip" for the purpose of Eldritch knight's war magic ability?

If yes, Bladesinger 9/EK 11 for the extra attack or Bladesinger 10/EK 10 for song of defense just became VERY cool...you can basically use a bonus action in order to get your full extra attack feature + a cantrip.


I suppose RAI it wouldn't work, but do you think RAW supports this build? Eldritch knight specifies "use your action to cast a cantrip", not "cast a cantrip as an action". Obviously they didnt plan this far ahead when designing the EK, and yet - when using bladesinger's extra attack, you ARE using your action to cast a cantrip - you are just ALSO using it to do something else.

I think it works; what might not work, RAW, is combining extra attack from EK and from BS to attack twice and cast a cantrip once, so going all the way to 11 with EK isn't worth it.

[Heavenblade]

Hmm, thats a good point. SO no real reason not to take Bladesinger to at least 10...I wouldn't go higher than 12 so I could snag a feat from fighter, and probably staying at 11th - I can get 6th level spells, AND a use of indomitable out of the deal.

[diplomancer]

Hmm, thats a good point. SO no real reason not to take Bladesinger to at least 10...I wouldn't go higher than 12 so I could snag a feat from fighter, and probably staying at 11th - I can get 6th level spells, AND a use of indomitable out of the deal.

I'd prefer a 13/7 split myself, it's the same number of ASIs, so it's a matter of 4 extra hitpoints and one use of indomitable vs. 7th level spells and one 8th level slot. If I REALLY needed one extra feat, 12/8 (so switching out indomitable for 1 feat compared to 11/9. Looks better)

[JediMaster]

Bladesinger 6/ EK 7 is good if pursuing max attacks approach to DPR. Also Bladesinger 6 / Monk 2/ Fighter 2/ Sorceror 2 is better Nova approach to max attacks avenue.

[Galithar]

Bladesinger 6/ EK 7 is good if pursuing max attacks approach to DPR. Also Bladesinger 6 / Monk 2/ Fighter 2/ Sorceror 2 is better Nova approach to max attacks avenue.

It also spreads ASI crazy thin while limiting the number you would get. You need 13 in Dex, Wis, Int, and Cha to pull that. Not to mention you're likely going to want at least 14 Con if you're to be in the front lines swinging a weapon. You lose a lot of Bladesong benefit if you don't have a high Int.

Though I suppose you don't have to be in the Frontline. BS extra attack at 6 doesn't necessitate a melee attack, simply the attack action. You could attack with a Longbow and then throw an EB.

The potential of a Sorlock Bladesinger comes to mind.

Attack action: Longbow attack and an Eldritch Blast. Quicken an Eldritch Blast. It adds one more attack to the already formidable Quicken EB setup. And with Hexblade, pact of the blade, and a long bow you can still use a single stat for all the attacks. Probably not worth it outside of white room theory or a start at 20 campaign though.

[ZiddyT]

I feel like taking Fighter to 7 for a single bonus action attack is a waste when you could accomplish the same thing as a pure Bladesinger using TWF.
A dip maybe isn't terrible for con saves, fighting style and possibly action surge, though.

[RogueJK]

I feel like taking Fighter to 7 for a single bonus action attack is a waste when you could accomplish the same thing as a pure Bladesinger using TWF.

Indeed.

Or with PAM and a one-handed Quarterstaff/Spear if you're going for a STR-based Bladesinger. (Which would be the less optimal choice compared to DEX-based TWF, since BSs are geared towards DEX as a result of being limited to Light Armor and 1H weapons.)

Unless you're purely multiclassing your Eldritch Knight into Bladesinger for the Extra Attack cantrip substitution and totally ignoring Bladesong and all its fantastic effects (which is certainly suboptimal), a BS/EK won't be able to use anything larger than a one-handed d8 Rapier/Longsword/Warhammer/Battleaxe anyway, and you won't even be able to use a Shield or Medium/Heavy Armor. Dropping down to TWF with a pair of d6 Short Swords/Scimitars, or 1H PAM with a d6+d4 Quarterstaff/Spear, is only cutting out 1-2 points of weapon damage. Most of your damage from the melee hits is going to be coming from stuff other than the weapon dice, like your ability modifier or spells like Booming Blade, Spirit Shroud, etc.

And with TWF specifically, you have the option of spending a feat on Dual Wielder to make that up by dual wielding d8 weapons like Rapiers plus gain a little more AC. Or you can TWF with a Shadow Blade as one of your weapons for a nice chunk of added damage, especially if upcast.


Therefore, a Bladesinger with a level of Fighter for the TWF Fighting Style (or a STR-based PAM BS with a level of Fighter for the Dueling Fighting Style as a distant second) would have the same effect of "Attack+Cantrip+BA Attack" with very similar damage, plus still allow for nearly-full Wizard progression with high level spellcasting.

And importantly, your Attack+Cantrip+BA Attack routine comes online at Level 7 (F1/BS6) instead of at Level 13 (EK7/BS6).

If you're worried about your HP without the additional Fighter levels, go with Hill Dwarf as your race, or spend an ASI on +2 CON, or possibly go VHuman/CLineage with the Tough feat.

You'll likely want to take that 1 level of Fighter first, for CON save proficiency, plus max d10 HP at 1st level. It'll play as any other DEX-based TWF fighter with light armor+dual short swords for that first level, before you switch to Wizard with Mage Armor+dual short swords+Shield spell at Level 2, and then Bladesinger adding in Bladesong starting at Level 3.

Or if you really want a single-classed version, you can do the same with a single-classed Bladesinger with the Fighting Initiate feat.


The draw for Level 7+ EK is that he has the option to cast a cantrip and then still get one extra massive Bonus Action hit in with something 2H like Greatsword+GWM or Longbow+SS, and can do it all while wearing Heavy Armor. Watering it down to a 1H weapon with Light Armor and no shield and then splitting your levels with Bladesinger doesn't really gain you anything over a Bladesinger TWF/PAM as far as attacks go (until you get to EK 11+ in your EK/BS split, I guess, but that won't come online until extremely late... Level 17 at the earliest). And all the EK levels makes you a much worse caster than someone with full BS levels or BS+Fighter dip.

If you're really wanting some Wizard levels sprinkled on your Eldritch Knight, a few levels of War Wizard or possibly Diviner could be a handy addition. You aren't locked into Light Armor and a DEX-focus or barred from using 2H weapons or shield like with a Bladesinger. But you can't get the Attack+Cantrip+BA Attack like a Bladesinger could. It'll basically play as a standard Eldritch Knight with a couple more low level spells and Wizard subclass tricks up their sleeve.


TL;DR: 50/50ish EK/BS is a poor choice... F1/BSX (or even just BSX) with TWF is superior when it comes to Attack+Cantrip+BA Attack, letting you do it just as well, but at earlier levels, and as a better spellcaster to boot.

[mistajames]

It works RAW (as the BS is literally "using their action to cast a cantrip"), but it comes online super late (L13 minimum) and you are otherwise not getting a whole lot out of your Fighter levels.

It's also a lot of commitment just to get a bonus action attack that you could easily get by running a straight Bladesinger wielding 2 shortswords and maybe dipping 1-2 levels of Fighter (for 2WF style, Con proficiency, and Action Surge).

[Gignere]

It works RAW (as the BS is literally "using their action to cast a cantrip"), but it comes online super late (L13 minimum) and you are otherwise not getting a whole lot out of your Fighter levels.

It's also a lot of commitment just to get a bonus action attack that you could easily get by running a straight Bladesinger wielding 2 shortswords and maybe dipping 1-2 levels of Fighter (for 2WF style, Con proficiency, and Action Surge).

Yeah I think the EK gets more out of war wizard levels than BS.

[mistajames]

Yeah I think the EK gets more out of war wizard levels than BS.

Yeah, 2 War Wizard levels is quite good defensively on just about anyone. TBH, I don't think that I would want to delay my fighter levels by multiclassing if I were running an EK.

[RogueJK]

Yeah, 2 War Wizard levels is quite good defensively on just about anyone. TBH, I don't think that I would want to delay my fighter levels by multiclassing if I were running an EK.

Here's a very solid DEX-based Eldritch Knight/War Wizard build, ending up as EK12/WW8 without significantly delaying your EK capabilities: https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24681222&postcount=523

It involves staying an Eldritch Knight through at least Level 8 (and potentially Level 11), before dipping into War Wizard for a couple levels to increase defense and upcast Shadow Blade, and then back to EK until EK 12, before finishing off with War Wizard for 3rd/4th level spells and even higher level slots for upcasting. You give up the Fighter's high level 4th attack and extra Action Surges/Indomitables, and the EK's high level teleport, in exchange for noticeably better melee damage output, defense, saves, and spellcasting options in Tiers 3 and 4. A very nice trade-off indeed.

You could try to take the 2 initial levels of War Wizard even earlier to increase your defense/saves earlier on, but this then would run into your concern about delaying your offensive capabilities pretty significantly for 2 levels. You really want to reach EK 8 ASAP for the "Booming Shadow Blade+BA Shadow Blade" attack routine before you consider taking your initial War Wizard levels, and the creator recommends waiting until after your 3rd attack comes online at EK 11.

Personally, 3 Shadow Blade attacks undoubtedly is nice, especially when combined with frequent Triple Advantage, but the Upcast Shadow Blade with Booming Blade routine will easily carry you through the delay of your 3rd attack to Character Level 13 with only a negligible loss of non-crit damage output (~0.5 damage per round), so I'm inclined towards taking the initial WW dip after EK 8. It basically comes down to whether you want Arcane Deflection at Level 10 and 3rd level upcast Shadow Blade at level 11 but have to wait until Level 13 for your 3rd attack, or get 3 attacks first at Level 11 and wait until Level 13 for Arcane Deflection and 3rd level upcast Shadow Blade. The latter does negligibly higher damage and gets an additional attack roll for potential crits from Levels 11-13, but has noticeably poorer saves and defense for these two levels until getting Arcane Ward. I'd prioritize the big defense/save boost over the small damage boost, and there's other nice abilities from the slightly earlier WW levels, like Ritual casting and Arcane Recovery coming online a bit sooner.

[Arkhios]

Eldritch Knight's War Magic feature doesn't benefit from TCE Bladesinger's Extra Attack, because you need to use your action to cast the Cantrip first. That said, I do think that Fighter's more numerous extra attack can work pretty well with Bladesinger 6+

Imho, Eldritch Knight's War Magic is inferior to Bladesinger's Extra Attack, and I wouldn't cry over for not using it almost at all. There may come situations where War Magic is still useful, but I reckon they're rare occasions.