Yakk
2020-12-15, 12:46 PM
This is an experimental mechanic I'm thinking about. It replaces extra attack.
Two Weapon Fighting
When you take the attack action and attack with a weapon while holding a light weapon melee in your other hand, you may roll a 1d20 two-weapon fighting die. You may choose to replace your attack roll with that two-weapon fighting die; if you do, your attack becomes with the light weapon you are holding in your other hand.
Similar change to Polearm master and XBE, plus wording so it doesn't stack with TWF.
Weapon Mastery
Starting at 5th level in this class, when you take the attack action and attack with a weapon, roll one 1d20 weapon mastery die. You can use that weapon mastery die to replace your attack roll. If you hit, roll your weapon damage dice twice and add up the damage.
In addition, you can take the Cleave action. When you take the cleave action, make one weapon attack and damage roll. You can apply this one roll to up to two creatures in range of your weapon during your turn; you can move between these attacks.
Improved Weapon Mastery
Starting at level 11, when a fighter takes the attack action, they roll 2d20 weapon mastery die instead of 1, and deal 3 sets of weapon damage dice.
In addition, if you take the Cleave action, you can target up to 3 creatures.
Perfect Weapon Mastery
Starting at level 20, when a fighter takes the attack action, they roll 3d20 weapon mastery die instead of 1, and deals 4 sets of weapon damage dice on a hit.
In addition, if you take the Cleave action, you can target up to 4 creatures.
---
Duelist adds your proficiency bonus to damage, and works with any 1 handed weapon (even if twf).
---
Further tweaks are probably required. Gloomstalker extra attack and inevitable shot, Paladin improve smite, Barbarian damage bonus, Ranger hunter's mark, dueling style may all require tweaks.
Also, spells like Haste and Tenser's Transformation.
Haste
Do not roll weapon mastery dice, or roll your weapon damage dice more than once, if you take the attack action granted by haste.
---
The goal here is to replace extra attack with something that is quicker to resolve.
Cleave is not the attack action, and is the "attack multiple mooks" option.
---
Some quick math.
Level 5 fighter, 18 strength, longsword, dueling style, attacking AC 16 (+7 to hit, 1d8 [W], +6 static)
Before: 9+ hit for 1d8+6(10.5) x2. 60% accuracy 5% crit rate. DPR is 13.05
After: 9+ hit for 2d8+7(16) with pseudo-advantage. 84% accuracy 10% crit rate. DPR is 14.34
Level 11 fighter, 20 strength, flaming greatsword, GWM, defensive style, attacking AC 18 with advantage. (+4 to hit, 2d6[W]+2d6 fire, +15 static)
Before 14+ hit for 4d6+15 (29) x3. 58% accuracy, 10% crit rate. DPR is 54.66 (2.0 dice multiplier, 1.7 static)
After 14+ hit for 8d6+15 (43) x1. 82% accuracy, 18.5% crit rate. DPR is 40.44 (3.0 dice multiplier, 0.8 static; flaming dice is 1.0)
This did better than I feared.
Level 11 fighter, 20 strength, PAM +2 spear+shield duelist, attacking AC 20 (+9 to hit, 1d6/1d4 +9/11 static)
Before: 11+ hit for 1d6+9 x3 1d4+9 x1. 50% accuracy, 5% crit rate. DPR is 25.15 (1.7 dice multiplier, 1.5 static)
After: 11+ hit for 3d6+11 (19.5) (PAM for 3d4+11 (16.5) (if missed). 88% primary accuracy, 6% butt-end, 14% primary crit, <1% butt-crit. DPR is a bit under 20. (3.1 dice multiplier, 0.9 static)
Level 20 fighter, 25 strength, +3 longsword with +3 longsword, TWF/duelist, attacking AC 25 (+16 to hit, 1d8/1d6 +10/14 static)
Before: 9+ hit for 1d8+10(14.5) x5, 60% accuracy 5% crit rate 44.625 DPR (3.3 dice multiplier, 3.0 static)
After: 9+ hit for 4d8+14(32) 5 rolls, 99% accuracy 23% crit rate 35.82 DPR (6.1 dice multiplier, 1.0 static)
So in this first pass, damage is dropped by about 25% in most cases at level 10+. So it needs work.
Generally the dice multiplier is better and the static multiplier is worse than with Extra Attack. I am treating flaming extra dice as a kind of static that gains extra damage on crits, and not have it scale with weapon mastery.
Dueling is 2 per attack (times accuracy) before. After it becomes proficiency times accuracy (with accuracy higher). I think that is a reasonable substitute.
I granted TWF attribute-bonus-to-damage on offhand, as it isn't a full attack (just a backup one) now. As it is an attack in the attack action, it also gets more dice. This also speeds things up; a TWF double longsword can just roll an extra d20 and not care if it is a weapon mastery or two die. Folding dueling style into supporting TWF gives it another little bump.
GWF damage bonus is on the dice rolled. It will scale better (more such dice), but it is annoying to model so I'm not.
...
I wonder if Fighter 11 should up it to 4 weapon dice instead of 3. Similarly, improved smite would grant 2d8 instead of 1d8 (accounting for fewer taps).
Level 11 fighter, 20 strength, flaming greatsword, GWM, defensive style, attacking AC 18 with advantage. (+4 to hit, 2d6[W]+2d6 fire, +15 static)
After 14+ hit for 10d6+15 (50) x1. 82% accuracy, 18.5% crit rate. DPR is 47.475
This is now closer, 85% instead of 75% of the damage of the GWM fighter.
If we add in GWF instead of duelist, those 8d6 go from 28 to 33.3 (an extra 5.3). We deliver an average of 8d6 (as crit+hit chance is 1.0) of them, so DPR hits 52.8 with mastery.
Without mastery, we deliver an average of 4d6 dice for +3.3 damage, hitting 58 DPR with extra attack.
So with GWF style, the gap is 9% less with mastery here.
Oh, I made an error on PAM with Mastery; if the butt-end crits, you'll use that instead of anything but a primary end crit. With that as well we get:
Level 11 fighter, 20 strength, PAM +2 spear+shield duelist, attacking AC 20 (+9 to hit, 1d6/1d4 +9/11 static)
After: 11+ hit for 4d6+11 (25) (PAM for 4d4+11 (21) (if missed). 84% primary accuracy, 10% butt-end, 14% primary crit, 5% butt-crit. DPR is 25.6.
This now matches the pre-mastery fighter.
Level 11 fighter, 20 strength, +2 dual longswords TWF/duelist, attacking AC 20 (+9 to hit, 1d8 +7/11 static)
Before: 11+ hit for 1d8+7 (11.5) x4. 50% accuracy, 5% crit rate. DPR is 23.9
After: 11+ hit for 4d8+11 (29) (4 tries). 94% accuracy, 19% crit. DPR is 30.68
TWF level 11 fighters deal more damage. I'm ok with that.
Level 11 fighter, 20 strength, +2 single longswords duelist, attacking AC 20 (+9 to hit, 1d8 +9/11 static)
Before: 11+ hit for 1d8+9 (13.5) x3. 50% accuracy, 5% crit rate. DPR is 20.9
After: 11+ hit for 4d8+11 (29) (3 tries). 88% accuracy, 14% crit. DPR is 28.04
The gap between this and TWF is too small. So needs more work. It also exceeds the PAM spear+shield; the improved delivery dice of weapon damage under mastery makes the smaller spear damage dice painful, and the butt-end attack only matters if it crits or the main attack misses.
The PAM still gets a reaction attack when people approach.
---
I could rework butt-end and twf attack so it works if the main weapon hits, adding its weapon damage die instead of being wasted.
That would add a few DPR to TWF high-accuracy situations (about 2 DPR?)
Comparing at level 1.
Longsword+Short sword TWF duelist 16 strength +2 proficiency (+5 to hit and static damage) against AC 14 (9+).
LS is 60% (5%) for 5.925
SS offhand adds .4*(.65 * 3.5 + .6*5) + .6*(.65*3.5) 3.475 extra damage
Total of 9.4 DPR.
GWF greatsword is 60%(5%) at 2d6(8.3)+3 (11.3) for 7.216645 DPR.
That is too much for TWF. Also it adds a complex conditional (how many offhand weapon dice do you roll?)
Keeping stat-bonus-to-damage when TWF makes a lot of situations easier, but it has a large impact at level 1.
Backing up to first principles:
Two short swords (2d6) is very similar to a greatsword (2d6). Greatsword style adds 8/6 damage per hit, traditional TWF adds stat (3-5) to one hit. Dual Wielder boosts the TWF style to 2d8 (2 per hit), but should compete with GWM.
Weapon Mastery makes pseudo-advantage easy to get, which makes -5/+10 more tempting, but strips out multiple taps and increases hit damage, which makes it worse.
...
Ok, so drop stat-to-damage on offhand, level 11 fighter grants 3[W] and 2 weapon mastery d20s. Go with 60% hit chance (18 AC) here.
Offhand attack is independent.
WM(F11)+GWF on a greatsword is 3 tries for 6d6+5 (30.0). At 60% to hit (94%) 5% crit (14%) that is 29.5 DPR
WM(F11)+duelist on a longsword is 3 tries for 3d8+9 (22.5). At 60% to hit (94%) 5% crit (14%) that is 23.0 DPR
WM(F11)+duelist+2 SS is 3 tries for 3d6+9 (19.5), 1 try for 3d6 (10.5). At 60% to hit (94%) 5% crit (14%) that is 26.6 DPR
WM(F11)+duelist+2 LS is 3 tries for 3d8+9 (22.5), 1 try for 3d8 (13.5). At 60% to hit (94%) 5% crit (14%) that is 31.8 DPR
Comparing with Rogue 11 with advantage TWF, they attack at +9 (84%/10%) at 1d6+5 (8.5) , +9 at 1d6 (3.5), 4 tries (97%/11%) for 6d6 -- 33.3 DPR.
Without advantage, Rogue 11 TWF is +9 (60%/5%) at 1d6+5 and 1d6, 2 tries (84%/8%) for 6d6 - 26.9 DPR.
That is at least the right ballpark.
Two Weapon Fighting
When you take the attack action and attack with a weapon while holding a light weapon melee in your other hand, you may roll a 1d20 two-weapon fighting die. You may choose to replace your attack roll with that two-weapon fighting die; if you do, your attack becomes with the light weapon you are holding in your other hand.
Similar change to Polearm master and XBE, plus wording so it doesn't stack with TWF.
Weapon Mastery
Starting at 5th level in this class, when you take the attack action and attack with a weapon, roll one 1d20 weapon mastery die. You can use that weapon mastery die to replace your attack roll. If you hit, roll your weapon damage dice twice and add up the damage.
In addition, you can take the Cleave action. When you take the cleave action, make one weapon attack and damage roll. You can apply this one roll to up to two creatures in range of your weapon during your turn; you can move between these attacks.
Improved Weapon Mastery
Starting at level 11, when a fighter takes the attack action, they roll 2d20 weapon mastery die instead of 1, and deal 3 sets of weapon damage dice.
In addition, if you take the Cleave action, you can target up to 3 creatures.
Perfect Weapon Mastery
Starting at level 20, when a fighter takes the attack action, they roll 3d20 weapon mastery die instead of 1, and deals 4 sets of weapon damage dice on a hit.
In addition, if you take the Cleave action, you can target up to 4 creatures.
---
Duelist adds your proficiency bonus to damage, and works with any 1 handed weapon (even if twf).
---
Further tweaks are probably required. Gloomstalker extra attack and inevitable shot, Paladin improve smite, Barbarian damage bonus, Ranger hunter's mark, dueling style may all require tweaks.
Also, spells like Haste and Tenser's Transformation.
Haste
Do not roll weapon mastery dice, or roll your weapon damage dice more than once, if you take the attack action granted by haste.
---
The goal here is to replace extra attack with something that is quicker to resolve.
Cleave is not the attack action, and is the "attack multiple mooks" option.
---
Some quick math.
Level 5 fighter, 18 strength, longsword, dueling style, attacking AC 16 (+7 to hit, 1d8 [W], +6 static)
Before: 9+ hit for 1d8+6(10.5) x2. 60% accuracy 5% crit rate. DPR is 13.05
After: 9+ hit for 2d8+7(16) with pseudo-advantage. 84% accuracy 10% crit rate. DPR is 14.34
Level 11 fighter, 20 strength, flaming greatsword, GWM, defensive style, attacking AC 18 with advantage. (+4 to hit, 2d6[W]+2d6 fire, +15 static)
Before 14+ hit for 4d6+15 (29) x3. 58% accuracy, 10% crit rate. DPR is 54.66 (2.0 dice multiplier, 1.7 static)
After 14+ hit for 8d6+15 (43) x1. 82% accuracy, 18.5% crit rate. DPR is 40.44 (3.0 dice multiplier, 0.8 static; flaming dice is 1.0)
This did better than I feared.
Level 11 fighter, 20 strength, PAM +2 spear+shield duelist, attacking AC 20 (+9 to hit, 1d6/1d4 +9/11 static)
Before: 11+ hit for 1d6+9 x3 1d4+9 x1. 50% accuracy, 5% crit rate. DPR is 25.15 (1.7 dice multiplier, 1.5 static)
After: 11+ hit for 3d6+11 (19.5) (PAM for 3d4+11 (16.5) (if missed). 88% primary accuracy, 6% butt-end, 14% primary crit, <1% butt-crit. DPR is a bit under 20. (3.1 dice multiplier, 0.9 static)
Level 20 fighter, 25 strength, +3 longsword with +3 longsword, TWF/duelist, attacking AC 25 (+16 to hit, 1d8/1d6 +10/14 static)
Before: 9+ hit for 1d8+10(14.5) x5, 60% accuracy 5% crit rate 44.625 DPR (3.3 dice multiplier, 3.0 static)
After: 9+ hit for 4d8+14(32) 5 rolls, 99% accuracy 23% crit rate 35.82 DPR (6.1 dice multiplier, 1.0 static)
So in this first pass, damage is dropped by about 25% in most cases at level 10+. So it needs work.
Generally the dice multiplier is better and the static multiplier is worse than with Extra Attack. I am treating flaming extra dice as a kind of static that gains extra damage on crits, and not have it scale with weapon mastery.
Dueling is 2 per attack (times accuracy) before. After it becomes proficiency times accuracy (with accuracy higher). I think that is a reasonable substitute.
I granted TWF attribute-bonus-to-damage on offhand, as it isn't a full attack (just a backup one) now. As it is an attack in the attack action, it also gets more dice. This also speeds things up; a TWF double longsword can just roll an extra d20 and not care if it is a weapon mastery or two die. Folding dueling style into supporting TWF gives it another little bump.
GWF damage bonus is on the dice rolled. It will scale better (more such dice), but it is annoying to model so I'm not.
...
I wonder if Fighter 11 should up it to 4 weapon dice instead of 3. Similarly, improved smite would grant 2d8 instead of 1d8 (accounting for fewer taps).
Level 11 fighter, 20 strength, flaming greatsword, GWM, defensive style, attacking AC 18 with advantage. (+4 to hit, 2d6[W]+2d6 fire, +15 static)
After 14+ hit for 10d6+15 (50) x1. 82% accuracy, 18.5% crit rate. DPR is 47.475
This is now closer, 85% instead of 75% of the damage of the GWM fighter.
If we add in GWF instead of duelist, those 8d6 go from 28 to 33.3 (an extra 5.3). We deliver an average of 8d6 (as crit+hit chance is 1.0) of them, so DPR hits 52.8 with mastery.
Without mastery, we deliver an average of 4d6 dice for +3.3 damage, hitting 58 DPR with extra attack.
So with GWF style, the gap is 9% less with mastery here.
Oh, I made an error on PAM with Mastery; if the butt-end crits, you'll use that instead of anything but a primary end crit. With that as well we get:
Level 11 fighter, 20 strength, PAM +2 spear+shield duelist, attacking AC 20 (+9 to hit, 1d6/1d4 +9/11 static)
After: 11+ hit for 4d6+11 (25) (PAM for 4d4+11 (21) (if missed). 84% primary accuracy, 10% butt-end, 14% primary crit, 5% butt-crit. DPR is 25.6.
This now matches the pre-mastery fighter.
Level 11 fighter, 20 strength, +2 dual longswords TWF/duelist, attacking AC 20 (+9 to hit, 1d8 +7/11 static)
Before: 11+ hit for 1d8+7 (11.5) x4. 50% accuracy, 5% crit rate. DPR is 23.9
After: 11+ hit for 4d8+11 (29) (4 tries). 94% accuracy, 19% crit. DPR is 30.68
TWF level 11 fighters deal more damage. I'm ok with that.
Level 11 fighter, 20 strength, +2 single longswords duelist, attacking AC 20 (+9 to hit, 1d8 +9/11 static)
Before: 11+ hit for 1d8+9 (13.5) x3. 50% accuracy, 5% crit rate. DPR is 20.9
After: 11+ hit for 4d8+11 (29) (3 tries). 88% accuracy, 14% crit. DPR is 28.04
The gap between this and TWF is too small. So needs more work. It also exceeds the PAM spear+shield; the improved delivery dice of weapon damage under mastery makes the smaller spear damage dice painful, and the butt-end attack only matters if it crits or the main attack misses.
The PAM still gets a reaction attack when people approach.
---
I could rework butt-end and twf attack so it works if the main weapon hits, adding its weapon damage die instead of being wasted.
That would add a few DPR to TWF high-accuracy situations (about 2 DPR?)
Comparing at level 1.
Longsword+Short sword TWF duelist 16 strength +2 proficiency (+5 to hit and static damage) against AC 14 (9+).
LS is 60% (5%) for 5.925
SS offhand adds .4*(.65 * 3.5 + .6*5) + .6*(.65*3.5) 3.475 extra damage
Total of 9.4 DPR.
GWF greatsword is 60%(5%) at 2d6(8.3)+3 (11.3) for 7.216645 DPR.
That is too much for TWF. Also it adds a complex conditional (how many offhand weapon dice do you roll?)
Keeping stat-bonus-to-damage when TWF makes a lot of situations easier, but it has a large impact at level 1.
Backing up to first principles:
Two short swords (2d6) is very similar to a greatsword (2d6). Greatsword style adds 8/6 damage per hit, traditional TWF adds stat (3-5) to one hit. Dual Wielder boosts the TWF style to 2d8 (2 per hit), but should compete with GWM.
Weapon Mastery makes pseudo-advantage easy to get, which makes -5/+10 more tempting, but strips out multiple taps and increases hit damage, which makes it worse.
...
Ok, so drop stat-to-damage on offhand, level 11 fighter grants 3[W] and 2 weapon mastery d20s. Go with 60% hit chance (18 AC) here.
Offhand attack is independent.
WM(F11)+GWF on a greatsword is 3 tries for 6d6+5 (30.0). At 60% to hit (94%) 5% crit (14%) that is 29.5 DPR
WM(F11)+duelist on a longsword is 3 tries for 3d8+9 (22.5). At 60% to hit (94%) 5% crit (14%) that is 23.0 DPR
WM(F11)+duelist+2 SS is 3 tries for 3d6+9 (19.5), 1 try for 3d6 (10.5). At 60% to hit (94%) 5% crit (14%) that is 26.6 DPR
WM(F11)+duelist+2 LS is 3 tries for 3d8+9 (22.5), 1 try for 3d8 (13.5). At 60% to hit (94%) 5% crit (14%) that is 31.8 DPR
Comparing with Rogue 11 with advantage TWF, they attack at +9 (84%/10%) at 1d6+5 (8.5) , +9 at 1d6 (3.5), 4 tries (97%/11%) for 6d6 -- 33.3 DPR.
Without advantage, Rogue 11 TWF is +9 (60%/5%) at 1d6+5 and 1d6, 2 tries (84%/8%) for 6d6 - 26.9 DPR.
That is at least the right ballpark.