Stun Ray

[schreier]

Just getting this spell for my level 13 wizard ... it is like a ray taser -- stuns them with electricity. It says "Creatures that have immunity to electricity are not affected by this spell."

It doesn't actually do damage by electricity, just stuns (and allows a fortitude save to reduce the stun to 1 round).

Would energy substitution work with it?

https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Energy_Substitution
Prerequisites
Any other metamagic feat, Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks.

Benefit
You choose one type of energy: acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. When employing a spell with the acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic designator, you can modify the spell to use your chosen type of energy instead. The altered spell uses a spell slot of the spell’s normal level.

The altered spell works normally in all respects except the type of damage dealt.

Special
You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time the feat applies to a different type of energy.

It does have the "electricity" designator but does not deal damage. I would assume it would allow you to change it to sonic for example ... which logically would change the "immune to electricity" to "immune to sonic" but I wanted to confirm that's how people play it.

[Anthrowhale]

I believe the answer is 'yes', except that there is no energy substitution[sonic].

[schreier]

Weird ... The srd lists it
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Energy_Substitution

[Anthrowhale]

Weird ... The srd lists it
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Energy_Substitution

It's from Deities and Demigods, a 3.0 sourcebook. The 3.5 version (in Complete Arcane) drops the sonic option.

[Biggus]

Weird ... The srd lists it
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Energy_Substitution

That's because it's taken from Deities and Demigods, a 3.0 book. The 3.5 version (in Complete Arcane) removes sonic as an option.

Edit: damn ninjas

[tyckspoon]

Just getting this spell for my level 13 wizard ... it is like a ray taser -- stuns them with electricity. It says "Creatures that have immunity to electricity are not affected by this spell."

It doesn't actually do damage by electricity, just stuns (and allows a fortitude save to reduce the stun to 1 round).

Would energy substitution work with it?

https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Energy_Substitution
Prerequisites
Any other metamagic feat, Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks.

Benefit
You choose one type of energy: acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. When employing a spell with the acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic designator, you can modify the spell to use your chosen type of energy instead. The altered spell uses a spell slot of the spell’s normal level.

The altered spell works normally in all respects except the type of damage dealt.

Special
You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time the feat applies to a different type of energy.

It does have the "electricity" designator but does not deal damage. I would assume it would allow you to change it to sonic for example ... which logically would change the "immune to electricity" to "immune to sonic" but I wanted to confirm that's how people play it.

RAW? No. As you noted the spell doesn't deal damage, and that's all Energy Substitution modifies. The other terms of the spell are unaffected - being immune to Electricity will still cause this to have no affect regardless of the energy tag associated with the spell.

That said, you might still want to do it if you are an elemental specialist, as changing its elemental tag may make it qualify for the benefits of other feats or class features you have that key off using [Fire], [Cold], [Air], etc spells.

[Anthrowhale]

RAW? No. As you noted the spell doesn't deal damage, and that's all Energy Substitution modifies.

The 3.5 version of Energy Substitution does not even mention the word 'damage'.

[schreier]

Good point - it says "Choose one type of energy (acid, cold, electricity, or fire). You can then modify any spell with an energy descriptor to use the chosen type of energy instead. An energy substituted spell uses a spell slot of the spell’s normal level. The spell’s descriptor changes to the new energy type—for example, a fireball composed of cold energy is an evocation [cold] spell."

That might actually allow you to change the immune condition then

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I think the one from Magic of Faerun has the best description:

Choose one type of energy: acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. You can modify any spell with an energy designator to use the chosen type of energy instead. A substituted spell works normally in all respects, except that the type of damage dealt changes. For example, an acidic fireball still deals damage in a 20-foot spread, except that it is acid damage instead of fire damage. If a spell has a secondary effect, the altered spell still has that effect. For example, a shout spell can deafen creatures and deals extra damage to crystalline creatures; if fire is substituted for sonic energy in a shout spell, creatures can still be deafened and crystalline creatures still suffer extra damage. Sometimes a spell's minor effects are directly related to the spell's energy, for example, a flaming sphere can set items afire, but a purely sonic or acidic flaming sphere does not. When a spell deals some damage that does not come from energy, Energy Substitution does not affect that portion of the spell. For example, ice storm deals 3d6 points of impact damage and 2d6 points of cold damage. An electrical ice storm deals 3d6 points of impact damage and 2d6 points of electricity damage. A substituted spell uses a spell slot zero levels higher than (the same as) the spell's actual level.

It actually covers a lot more contingencies than any of the others.

[Asmotherion]

It needs the "electricity" designator. Otherwise it's not a valid target for the metamagic. It doesn't need to actually deal any damage.

[schreier]

I knew it could be targeted with the metamagic ... The question is if it changes the immune to electricity caveat to whatever element you choose

[Thurbane]

I knew it could be targeted with the metamagic ... The question is if it changes the immune to electricity caveat to whatever element you choose

Yeah, that part of the RAW is debatable.

I was going to suggest Elven Spell Lore for a Sonic version, but that appears to only work with damaging spells.

[Zaq]

As has been mentioned, by RAW the most recent version of Energy Substitution barely does anything. Mostly because energy descriptors have very little effect other than triggering some niche abilities.

I believe that what you’re proposing fits with RAI but I don’t believe that it’s RAW.

[Asmotherion]

I knew it could be targeted with the metamagic ... The question is if it changes the immune to electricity caveat to whatever element you choose

I tend to agree that RAW would not allow it, as the special text is specific, and the metamagic does not interact with the special text, as it deals no damage.

That said, as a DM I'd allow it to work that way. Especially if I felt it would lead to some fun interactions.

[Anthrowhale]

I'm not getting the RAW confusion. We have:

You can then modify any spell with an energy descriptor to use the chosen type of energy instead.
Applied to Stun Ray, this implies:

Stun Ray"]You blast an enemy with a scintillating ray of electricitycold... The target is stunned for 1d4+1 rounds by the ray of electricitycold... Creatures that have immunity to electricitycold are not affected by this spell.

I don't know any other way to even interpret the text of energy substitution.

[Asmotherion]

I'm not getting the RAW confusion. We have:

Applied to Stun Ray, this implies:

I don't know any other way to even interpret the text of energy substitution.

The problem comes from this text from the Deities and Demigods version:


The altered spell works normally in all respects except the type of damage dealt. For example, a fireball spell changed to a sonicball spell works like a fireball, but deals sonic damage instead of fire damage.

Though, this is an older version of the metamagic, and the newer version always trumps the older one... or something like that...

I believe you have a point here.

[Thurbane]

The main issue I can see is the spell doesn't specifically call out the fact that the spell is electricity based as being the reason that creatures immune to electricity are unaffected. Logically and RAI I would assume this to be the case, but changing the descriptor does not necessarily change the immunity type by RAW.

FWIW, I would let this work in my game, but I think RAW is a bit questionable.

I've read similar debates on modifying Fire Shield with Energy Substitution, and if that changes what energy type you are protected from?

[Anthrowhale]

The main issue I can see is the spell doesn't superficially call out the fact that the spell is electricity based as being the reason that creatures immune to electricity are unaffected. Logically and RAI I would assume this to be the case, but changing the descriptor does not necessarily change the immunity type by RAW.
Blanket substitution of references to the old energy type for the new energy type seems as close to RAW as we'll get from "use the chosen type of energy instead."


I've read similar debates on modifying Fire Shield with Energy Substitution, and if that changes what energy type you are protected from?

Fire Shield is odd, because the type of damage protected against is the opposite of the type of energy used by the spell. So, if you do Energy Substitution[Electricity] Fire Shield[Cold], you would get:


The flames also protect you from ... fire-based attacks ... Any creature striking you ... deals normal damage, but at the same time the attacker takes 1d6 points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +15). This damage is ... coldelectricity damage ...
... You take only half damage from fire-based attacks. ....

So, it doesn't change the type of energy you are protected from. Energy Substitution on Radiant Shield (Also level 4, but with an abstinence component) could however protect against another energy type.

[Darg]

I believe the answer is 'yes', except that there is no energy substitution[sonic].

Except it doesn't exclude the choice. The parenthetical is hardly exclusionary. Parentheticals are generally used in an explanatory way or to provide examples. They don't have to list all the options. An example of this is snap kick. It does not include all the other possibilities of making attacks that actually fit the description of the feat and would be allowed by the description of the feat.

[Asmotherion]

Except it doesn't exclude the choice. The parenthetical is hardly exclusionary. Parentheticals are generally used in an explanatory way or to provide examples. They don't have to list all the options. An example of this is snap kick. It does not include all the other possibilities of making attacks that actually fit the description of the feat and would be allowed by the description of the feat.

No need to debate this further, as both the SRD version and all other entries list the sonic descriptor. It was highly propable that it was just an error that the Complete Arcane Version excludes it.

In any case, to my Knowlage, the SRD version trumps all other versions of a spell, as (I think) it is the most recently re-evaluated official version.

[Thurbane]

The Complete Arcane version is the latest. The SRD version is, in fact, not technically part of the OGL SRD rule set, but rather bonus material from the 3.0 Deities and Demigods.

While there's no point debating RAI, IMHO sonic was very intentionally dropped in the 3.5 update, as it offers an advantage over other energy types, since so few creatures are resistant or immune compared to the others.

Obviously if you want to use the SRD version at your table that isn't an issue, but tehcnially the CArc version supercedes it.

I'm not even going to enter into the whole "parentheticals" reading of the feat. :smallamused:

[Asmotherion]

The Complete Arcane version is the latest. The SRD version is, in fact, not technically part of the OGL SRD rule set, but rather bonus material from the 3.0 Deities and Demigods.

While there's no point debating RAI, IMHO sonic was very intentionally dropped in the 3.5 update, as it offers an advantage over other energy types, since so few creatures are resistant or immune compared to the others.

Obviously if you want to use the SRD version at your table that isn't an issue, but tehcnially the CArc version supercedes it.

I'm not even going to enter into the whole "parentheticals" reading of the feat. :smallamused:

Hmmm, if Complete Arcane is the latest version, and was published after the SRD version (which, honestly, I have no Idea when it was published) it does indeed make it that it is the RAW version. Not sure if it was indeed a RAI change or a mistake, but in a strict RAW reading it indeed does stand.

About RAI, I'm not sure, mostly because there are so many copies that list Sonic and only one that I know of that doesn't. I'm going to cast an inconclusive verdict on my part on that one.