Ravenloft

[Kurald Galain]

So as not to derail another thread...

I've played Ravenloft way back in 2E and it was a pretty cool setting. I haven't played the 3E variant, but I've seen some people here claim that the 3E version is pretty bad.

So why is it bad? And how bad is it? I'm curious.

[Dalboz of Gurth]

So as not to derail another thread...

I've played Ravenloft way back in 2E and it was a pretty cool setting. I haven't played the 3E variant, but I've seen some people here claim that the 3E version is pretty bad.

So why is it bad? And how bad is it? I'm curious.

Yeah I'm pretty much done with that thread too.



I tried to get into 3e ravenloft three times, I'd grab the book, sit down and read it half way through. Each time I had forgotten why I put the book back on the shelf.

To descirbe my experience with pre-3e Ravenloft: I have about half of the supplements from 2nd edition that were ever released in hard back form. I have about 1/4 more in electronic form from the TSR website and other sources (only because I was unable to find hard copies and the TSR website released them for free).

It's been a while since I last read the RL player's handbook, I'll try and keep this short, but this is what I remember:

1. The feat system. The feat system is basically taken from the Player's Option books (almost every feat has an origin in those books). Problem is a lot of the Domain Lords, Domain Powers and Horror Checks conflict with these rules. By trying to mesh them together you wind up with some major problems concerning applying them in an even spread.
Horror and Fear checks themselves require an even hand. Otherwise if you design an encounter with a Horrific scene you can wind up with something like this:
The Paladin of the group is supposed to be this highly trained professional, with a regular setup. Supposed to be fighting undead. What happens is the rogue of the group who defines himself as a scaredy cat, winds up making all of his horror checks and the paladin runs like the Green Knight who bravely soils his pants.

This is why on the Kargotane (the official RL website) one of the discussions was people having such a difficult problem trying to convert Ravenloft into 3e. And if I remember right, there were two botched playtesting attempts by WoTC to translate Ravenloft (that was before they sub contracted the setting over to White Wolf).

Now what White Wolf did was they basically destroyed the rules for Fear and Horror Checks. They made Ravenloft into a "Story Teller" type atmosphere to compensate for these rules. And that made all the books a convoluted mess of rules that didn't really matter because they contradicted each other.

The reasons I hate the Feat System are directly related to Ravenloft.

2. Translation of the Domain Lords. Part of the failure to translate Domain Lords into the 3e again is facilitated by the Feat System, but further compounded by White Wolf's "story telling" atmosphere. Using the Feat System I was able to translate Lord Soth into a god amongst Domain Lords, basically he wound up with more power than the lands could handle, allowing him to easily escape Ravenloft whenever he wanted. In the old system, the lands themselves would equal/siphon the power of the Lords (although I admit Lord Soth was originally the most ingenious of all the lords, capable of rivaling Vecna), but something fundamental changed when you translated the rules, with so many resists the Lands seemed to become prey to the whims of the lords (and not vice versa).
But let's forget the Feat system, because it alone is not responsible for the downfall of Ravenloft (although it did cause a bunch of problems).

Ravenloft's premise, one of them anyway, is that NPCs are basically PCs. They have detailed background and motivations. It's like reading HP Lovecraft. There's a detailed history, there're detailed motivations, and there are detailed encounter types.
Ravenloft is supposed to be a system where the DM gives the players a "rolling chance" to over come something, but prevents the DM from giving the players too much of a break, or by instantly damning their characters.

White Wolf decided to remove these guidelines, and instead took introductions from their World of Darkness books, and put those in their place. It made me want to scream.

World of Darkness is a setting where DMs/STs are puppetmasters and players/characters have little authority or recourse.

Ravenloft is a setting where DM creates an affliction for the players. Notice I said affliction not encounter. The players must then abide by the rules of the lands in order to overcome their predicament. And yes, the lands have specific rules (the entire purpose for the 4 volumes of Van Richten's Guide is the fact that each Domain has it's own set of SET IN STONE RULES). The DM is literally supposed to be powerless, by giving all of the power into the LAWS OF THE LAND!

White Wolf destroyed this utterly when they made each Domain a homogenized Story Teller controled rules-lite version of Ravenloft.

As I read through the 3e Ravenloft book, I noticed that from one domain to another, each domain is less unique than the last.

The whole point of Ravenloft is that each Domain is so entirely unique, that when 1 Domain Lord crossed into the domain of ANOTHER Domain Lord it would cause earth shattering consequences! By removing the UNIQUE laws of each domain, you removed the motivations and desires of the lords, and the living lands themselves. In one stroke of the pen White Wolf forever destroyed Ravenloft. It made me sick.

3. The history for the domains has also become very contradictory, mainly due to the writers at WW studios not involving themselves enough to learn it's history. It drives me nuts.



There are other more specific reasons why Ravenloft infuriated me. But I can't remember them and won't be able to unless I read through the 3e book.

I've heard rumors that many problems caused by White Wolf have since been fixed, but I haven't read the newer edition of the Ravenloft player's guide so I really am not sure how much of this has since been corrected. All I know is sales of Ravenloft have not improved. Even those who love 3.5 and love Ravenloft have told me that that Ravenloft 3.5 is still a weak sight compared to what they are used to.


On a lighter note, the GURPS supplement: ScreamPUNK is so close to Ravenloft I'm surprised they haven't been sued.
;)

[Kurald Galain]

World of Darkness is a setting where DMs/STs are puppetmasters and players/characters have little authority or recourse.

Heh.

Sounds like you just hate WOD, and hate everything that somehow becomes associated with it as a result. But whatever you think of WOD is strictly your personal opinion, because it is one of the longest-lasting and best-selling RPGs in the marketplace, primarily for its atmosphere.

Any other opinions?

[Dalboz of Gurth]

Heh.

Sounds like you just hate WOD, and hate everything that somehow becomes associated with it as a result. But whatever you think of WOD is strictly your personal opinion, because it is one of the longest-lasting and best-selling RPGs in the marketplace, primarily for its atmosphere.

Any other opinions?

I'm sorry but last I checked World of Darkness is 4th place, under AD&D, Palladium and GURPS. Considering there aren't too many RPGs with which to compete, that's not very hard to do.

As for your "psychoanalysis" of myself, I have a rather kickass Pyro Vamp Hunting character in WoD, and that line you quoted where I said ST's are the puppet masters and players are helpless without any recourse -- that's almost a direct quote that I read from one of my story teller books. In other words: That's a quote from white wolf (albeit only slightly paraphrased, they did use the ST's are Puppetmasters line). As I said before, I also liked Mage.

That kind of gaming, however, is anti-Ravenloft. What White Wolf did was they made Ravenloft into Vampire: The Dark Ages. They removed all the uniqueness I described earlier and butchered the game setting. You can go ahead and search for other opinions from die hard Lofters, but I bet you 10-1 payout you're going to hear a lot of the same of what I said.

[tainsouvra]

World of Darkness is a setting where DMs/STs are puppetmasters and players/characters have little authority or recourse. That is complete and utter nonsense. I have played WoD and D&D both, and I can say that I have noticed no more "puppetmaster vs puppet" issues with WoD than I have with D&D.

Back your claim up with something that isn't hyperbole.

[Dalboz of Gurth]

That is complete and utter nonsense. I have played WoD and D&D both, and I can say that I have noticed no more "puppetmaster vs puppet" issues with WoD than I have with D&D.

Back your claim up with something that isn't hyperbole.

uhh that's actually a like White Wolf used itself. -_-

[tainsouvra]

uhh that's actually a like White Wolf used itself. -_- Yes, but differentiate it from what WotC says and does.

[Douglas]

1. The feat system. The feat system is basically taken from the Player's Option books (almost every feat has an origin in those books). Problem is a lot of the Domain Lords, Domain Powers and Horror Checks conflict with these rules. By trying to mesh them together you wind up with some major problems concerning applying them in an even spread.
How so? I'm really having a hard time imagining how feats could possibly have an effect anywhere near what you seem to be saying they do.

Horror and Fear checks themselves require an even hand. Otherwise if you design an encounter with a Horrific scene you can wind up with something like this:
The Paladin of the group is supposed to be this highly trained professional, with a regular setup. Supposed to be fighting undead. What happens is the rogue of the group who defines himself as a scaredy cat, winds up making all of his horror checks and the paladin runs like the Green Knight who bravely soils his pants.
Paladins in 3.x are immune to fear, so that shouldn't happen. You might get that with a fighter, but there are plenty of ways to build a fighter to be extra resistant to that sort of thing unless these "Horror and Fear checks" are completely separated from the normal 3E mechanics.


2. Translation of the Domain Lords. Part of the failure to translate Domain Lords into the 3e again is facilitated by the Feat System, but further compounded by White Wolf's "story telling" atmosphere. Using the Feat System I was able to translate Lord Soth into a god amongst Domain Lords, basically he wound up with more power than the lands could handle, allowing him to easily escape Ravenloft whenever he wanted.
Again, how the heck did adding feats have that effect? Feats just plain are not that powerful unless you allow certain third party supplements that didn't even try to pretend they were balanced.

The rest of your rant involves things I don't know enough about to comment on.

[tainsouvra]

I think he's referring specifically to the material in the Ravenloft setting, which wasn't made by WotC and conflicts with their standard in places.

[Douglas]

So it belongs on that list of "third party supplements that didn't even try to pretend they were balanced"? If so, that's a problem specifically with Ravenloft, not with the feat system.

[SilverClawShift]

Paladins in 3.x are immune to fear

But not to horror.

Really, it's been a while since I've seen a ravenloft book, but I could almost swear they give a full few pages to the issue of paladins fear, and they recomend removing the immunity alltogether?

Someone who can actually check the book will know better though :smalltongue:

[tainsouvra]

So it belongs on that list of "third party supplements that didn't even try to pretend they were balanced"? If so, that's a problem specifically with Ravenloft, not with the feat system. Basically, yes.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Side note. Isn't this thread ALSO getting derailed? Let's ignore that debate and focus on WHAT Ravenloft exactly does.

[Dalboz of Gurth]

How so? I'm really having a hard time imagining how feats could possibly have an effect anywhere near what you seem to be saying they do.

You'd really need to have been a hard core Ravenloft player. I keep forgetting exactly how they screw up and that's why I went to re-read the RL book 3 separate times. But I always wound up saying "oh that's right, man this is screwed."


Paladins in 3.x are immune to fear, so that shouldn't happen. You might get that with a fighter, but there are plenty of ways to build a fighter to be extra resistant to that sort of thing unless these "Horror and Fear checks" are completely separated from the normal 3E mechanics.

Van Richten's first law:
Nobody is immune to anything in the Domains of the Dread.

There's a reason why I've been able to break hard core AD&D players in Ravenloft without even trying.



Again, how the heck did adding feats have that effect? Feats just plain are not that powerful unless you allow certain third party supplements that didn't even try to pretend they were balanced.

The rest of your rant involves things I don't know enough about to comment on.

Again, it's been a a couple years since the last time I picked up Ravenloft supplement, so I can't remember the details. It was so horrific I blocked most of the event out of my mind. But I remember that feats caused problems especially with fear and horror checks.

It's not a rant I was simply stating some of the reasons why and how Ravenloft was screwed in response to the original poster.


and people please I'm not bashing all of WoD, I actually like some of the WoD settings. I think you're taking some of my criticisms too and almost as personal insults.

Regardless of how good some of their games are White Wolf did destroy Ravenloft and there's a reason (rather multiple reasons) why Lofters hate the new 3e Ravenloft.

[Dalboz of Gurth]

But not to horror.

Really, it's been a while since I've seen a ravenloft book, but I could almost swear they give a full few pages to the issue of paladins fear, and they recomend removing the immunity alltogether?

Someone who can actually check the book will know better though :smalltongue:

Exactly! Thank you SCS :)

Not only that but many spells, such as Detect Evil, Detect Alignment, Protection from evil, don't work period.

And some DMs such as myself, make it so that if a player insists on using DE, they become "temporarily psychicly blind from the intense amount of evil they sense".

[SilverClawShift]

What happens is the rogue of the group who defines himself as a scaredy cat, winds up making all of his horror checks and the paladin runs like the Green Knight who bravely soils his pants.

*hums* Brave Sir Robin ran away....

[Starsinger]

But not to horror.

Really, it's been a while since I've seen a ravenloft book, but I could almost swear they give a full few pages to the issue of paladins fear, and they recomend removing the immunity alltogether?

Someone who can actually check the book will know better though :smalltongue:

Paladins are immune to magical fear, like a dragon's frightful presence, or the necromancy spell "cause fear", but not to actual fear.

[Logic Cannon]

Why anyone would allow paladins in Ravenloft in the first place is beyond me. Many of their powers no longer work well, if at all, and the Dark Powers of Ravenloft love tormenting and destroying them. You're basically playing a dog-catcher with a net going after a pack of wolves. You're screwed, and the wolves think it's funny.

The thing that always gets me in these kinds of conversations is that there seems to be some kind of assumption of ingrained slavishness to the source material. I've played 3rd edition Ravenloft and it worked fine. It used the rules it thought were good and ignored those it didn't. It mostly kept to the background materials it liked. This is a constantly-shifting world with unlimited potential for DM control and some of you are treating it as a static world with rules inscribed in sacrosanct stone.

[Kurald Galain]

Side note. Isn't this thread ALSO getting derailed? Let's ignore that debate and focus on WHAT Ravenloft exactly does.

That's a good point, I haven't gotten much of an answer other than vague assertions. An assertion is not a proof, obviously.

Now it's quite possible that the Ravenloft book "didn't even try to pretend balanced", but I can name several WOTC books that are horribly unbalanced by themselves, so you can hardly blame [i]that on anyone.


I'm sorry but last I checked World of Darkness is 4th place, under AD&D, Palladium and GURPS. Considering there aren't too many RPGs with which to compete, that's not very hard to do.
Heh, that cracks me up. This incomplete list (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_role-playing_games_by_name) has several hundreds of RPGs on it. Seems to me 4th place is a pretty decent spot, no? Plus I suspect it's actually third, given that Palladium has only a dozen or so books, and hasn't had a new edition in eleven years.


that line you quoted where I said ST's are the puppet masters and players are helpless without any recourse -- that's almost a direct quote that I read from one of my story teller books.
Really? Which book? One line paraphrased and taken out of context that is in direct contradiction to the storytelling section of all their rulebooks... hm, that is a dilemma...


the rogue of the group who defines himself as a scaredy cat, winds up making all of his horror checks and the paladin runs like the Green Knight who bravely soils his pants.
The laws of statistics point out that it's quite possible that one player will roll consistently high on horror checks, and the other will roll consistently low.


Again, it's been a a couple years since the last time I picked up Ravenloft supplement, so I can't remember the details. It was so horrific I blocked most of the event out of my mind.
Rhetoric, rhetoric, yawn. Can we have somebody who is not as obviously biased as this Dalboz guy give some actual facts (as opposed to opinions) on the subject? Thanks.

[Dalboz of Gurth]

Why anyone would allow paladins in Ravenloft in the first place is beyond me. Many of their powers no longer work well, if at all, and the Dark Powers of Ravenloft love tormenting and destroying them. You're basically playing a dog-catcher with a net going after a pack of wolves. You're screwed, and the wolves think it's funny.

The thing that always gets me in these kinds of conversations is that there seems to be some kind of assumption of ingrained slavishness to the source material. I've played 3rd edition Ravenloft and it worked fine. It used the rules it thought were good and ignored those it didn't. It mostly kept to the background materials it liked. This is a constantly-shifting world with unlimited potential for DM control and some of you are treating it as a static world with rules inscribed in sacrosanct stone.


Paladins are extremely powerful in Ravenloft should they know how to handle themselves.

You may have liked 3rd edition ravenloft, but there's a reason why the initial press was pulled and it was re-written. There's also a reason why it doesn't move very well. Part of the problem is what you said: DM control. That represents more World of Darkness than Ravenloft. And to tell you the truth, World of Darkness players are the first ones to die in 2nd ed Ravenloft - so there is a big mentality shift in order to make Ravenloft act more like WW's WoD.

[Dalboz of Gurth]

That's a good point, I haven't gotten much of an answer other than vague assertions. An assertion is not a proof, obviously.

Now it's quite possible that the Ravenloft book "didn't even try to pretend balanced", but I can name several WOTC books that are horribly unbalanced by themselves, so you can hardly blame [i]that on anyone.

You asked why people disliked Ravenloft. I gave you the reasons why most didn't.

Now it seems all you're trying to do is pick an argument. I'm not going to bow to your whims demanding that I explain why I didn't buy the ravenloft books, each of the three times I read their poorly written piece of trash. Because that would require me to actually buy those books and come back here and type of every single rule change and every major alteration.

You asked for an opinion and you got it.

Now if you want to try and fight and argue with me about my opinion being right or wrong, you can do it by yourself or find someone else to pick a fight with. The fact that I went back to the book 3 times thinking I mis-read it, only to realize three times "man I forgot that's why I hated it", should be an indication #1 of what's wrong.
The fact that Ravenloft is such a poor seller only a handful of book stores will keep it on the shelves should be indication #2.
The fact that you yourself realize that other Lofters hate Ravenloft should be indication #3.
The fact that WoTC failed in two playtests to convert Ravenloft before sub contracting the system out to White Wolf should be indication #4.

I don't know what to tell you. I tell you the answer of why I hate it, and you just seem to want to argue with the answer because you love 3e so much you can't stand to listen to anyone's criticism.



Heh, that cracks me up. This incomplete list (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_role-playing_games_by_name) has several hundreds of RPGs on it. Seems to me 4th place is a pretty decent spot, no? Plus I suspect it's actually third, given that Palladium has only a dozen or so books, and hasn't had a new edition in eleven years.

Palladium is on every single bookshelf of gaming stores near here because it moves. It's one of the most popular gaming systems in Colorado. Having not released a new edition in eleven years does not mean it isn't popular, it means that they actually DID SOMETHING RIGHT!

In the chain of stores I worked at Palladium sold quite a bit more than White Wolf.



Really? Which book? One line paraphrased and taken out of context that is in direct contradiction to the storytelling section of all their rulebooks... hm, that is a dilemma...

#1 problem I have with white wolf - their rules contradict themselves.

It's been 7 years since I played either mage or Vampire (I was a vamp hunter and feared at that) (I stopped in 2000). But I will take a guess that it might've been in the Mage books because those were the ones I thuroughly read, though I may be wrong, might've been a supplement. It was a little line in the ST job description likening them to puppetmasters. You can go find it yourself.



The laws of statistics point out that it's quite possible that one player will roll consistently high on horror checks, and the other will roll consistently low.

By chance, but not by design. I'm talking about people rolling high by design. If you had any clue on how fear and horror actually worked you wouldn't be trying to argue this.



Rhetoric, rhetoric, yawn. Can we have somebody who is not as obviously biased as this Dalboz guy give some actual facts (as opposed to opinions) on the subject? Thanks.

Just like someone who isn't interested in listening to an answer that conflicts with their personal view.

You asked a question.

You didn't approve of the answer.

So you pretend you know the truth of a subject in which you have 0 experience.

Don't talk with anyone on this subject if you refuse to listen to their comments.

[SpikeFightwicky]

You asked why people disliked Ravenloft. I gave you the reasons why most didn't.

Now it seems all you're trying to do is pick an argument. I'm not going to bow to your whims demanding that I explain why I didn't buy the ravenloft books, each of the three times I read their poorly written piece of trash. Because that would require me to actually buy those books and come back here and type of every single rule change and every major alteration.

You asked for an opinion and you got it.

You're not just stating your opinion, you're trying to say your opinion in a way that sounds like it's fact. At least, that's what it sounds like. That, and your statements are somewhat contradictory:


2. Translation of the Domain Lords. Part of the failure to translate Domain Lords into the 3e again is facilitated by the Feat System, but further compounded by White Wolf's "story telling" atmosphere. Using the Feat System I was able to translate Lord Soth into a god amongst Domain Lords, basically he wound up with more power than the lands could handle, allowing him to easily escape Ravenloft whenever he wanted. In the old system, the lands themselves would equal/siphon the power of the Lords (although I admit Lord Soth was originally the most ingenious of all the lords, capable of rivaling Vecna), but something fundamental changed when you translated the rules, with so many resists the Lands seemed to become prey to the whims of the lords (and not vice versa).

I don't understand ANY of this...
- I've actually read the 3.0 and 3.5 Ravenloft books (own them all), and nowhere does it state that the land is no longer in power, and that the Darklords reign supreme. The old adage of 'the dark powers are in control' is still true. How in *$#&%#$*&(%^ do you get feats that allow escape from Ravenloft? Especially since all the darklords are at the whim and mercy of the dark powers. And finally (and this is the most important part), the DM is still the highest authority on the game. If you found a loophole that allows exit from RL (impossible since the setting, in 2ed, 3.x, etc... states that exit is IMPOSSIBLE except under VERY special circumstances - circumstances under the control of the DM, I might add), you're well within your right to disallow it. I've been a Ravenloft player since 2nd ed, and never have I heard a DM state something absurd like "Sorry, your characters are dead. The dark powers wanted them dead, and I, the DM, must bend to their whims".



Now if you want to try and fight and argue with me about my opinion being right or wrong, you can do it by yourself or find someone else to pick a fight with. The fact that I went back to the book 3 times thinking I mis-read it, only to realize three times "man I forgot that's why I hated it", should be an indication #1 of what's wrong.
The fact that Ravenloft is such a poor seller only a handful of book stores will keep it on the shelves should be indication #2.
The fact that you yourself realize that other Lofters hate Ravenloft should be indication #3.
The fact that WoTC failed in two playtests to convert Ravenloft before sub contracting the system out to White Wolf should be indication #4.

This is a good indication of bad representation on your part. So you don't like the system... Your explanations are faulty (giving Soth feats does not ruin the system. It ruins YOUR view of the system, and if you can't find a way around it, well, maybe you shouldn't be running RL games), or lack credibility (saying things like 'most Ravenloft players already know this' is not an argument... who are 'most' Ravenloft players?).


I don't know what to tell you. I tell you the answer of why I hate it, and you just seem to want to argue with the answer because you love 3e so much you can't stand to listen to anyone's criticism.

And again, you ruin your credibility. You have no idea what the OP's likes or dislikes are, but insist on assuming they're in love with 3.x... Your post sounded more like a condemning of WW and a promotion for Paladium.


Palladium is on every single bookshelf of gaming stores near here because it moves. It's one of the most popular gaming systems in Colorado. Having not released a new edition in eleven years does not mean it isn't popular, it means that they actually DID SOMETHING RIGHT!

In the chain of stores I worked at Palladium sold quite a bit more than White Wolf.

Ok, now what if I told you Paladium was mostly dead in my area, and the only reason it's on the bookshelves of gaming stores (whereas chain bookstores keep WW, S&S and D&D on their shelves. If Paladium was as big as you envision, major chains would start shelving it) is that it doesn't sell. Just because Colorado (allegedly... do you even have any facts to back up your statements?) favors Paladium, doesn't mean it's the worldwide best seller. Also, I see more WoD books coming out and being picked up by gamers in my area, so we can see that local statistics don't really mean anything.



#1 problem I have with white wolf - their rules contradict themselves.

It's been 7 years since I played either mage or Vampire (I was a vamp hunter and feared at that) (I stopped in 2000). But I will take a guess that it might've been in the Mage books because those were the ones I thuroughly read, though I may be wrong, might've been a supplement. It was a little line in the ST job description likening them to puppetmasters. You can go find it yourself.

Obviously a system won't clean itself up in 7 years... even after releasing an entirely new edition recently. You should update your arguments to modern day...



By chance, but not by design. I'm talking about people rolling high by design. If you had any clue on how fear and horror actually worked you wouldn't be trying to argue this.

Just like someone who isn't interested in listening to an answer that conflicts with their personal view.

You asked a question.

You didn't approve of the answer.

So you pretend you know the truth of a subject in which you have 0 experience.

Don't talk with anyone on this subject if you refuse to listen to their comments.

Technically, you presume to know the truth after admitting to: not reading through the Ravenloft books, not keeping up to date on WoD (the system that's giving your main grief) and assuming your local gaming statistic apply to the world.

Don't get me wrong, I myself admit that 3.X Ravenloft lost its 1st and 2nd ed. feel, but I'll discuss it in a different post. This one's too long already.

(For the record, I've played the 4 'top' RPG systems, and found that each one has their flaws, and our group usually sticks with D&D because it's the most consistent.)

[Powerfamiliar]

How exactly do feats break Ravenloft? I tried the 3E version and I'll agree its wasn't as good as 2E. It's probably the worst 3E campaign setting I own, but then again the other ones I own are Eberron and FR. We tried to play a campaign written under 2E rules and it just didn't translate very well.

Reading thought the feat list in the main book, I don't really see the problem with them. There's only 13 of them, some have pretty specific requirements (Haunted for example requires someone close to you to die, this one is actually a pretty nice if creepy feat.), but none seems particularly powerful. Theres a trio of feats that grant you a bonus on fear, horror, and madness individually, but they all seem inferior to iron will.

[brian c]

Dalboz: you're a new member on this forum, and you have a lot to say, obviously. Not to take anything away from what you're saying (and I've ever played 2e, never played any White Wolf game, never played any edition of Ravenloft, so I can't argue with you at all) but maybe Kurald wants to hear from more than just one person about this.

Note: I agree with him that you haven't really backed up what you're saying though; you just say "this sucks, they rined it" etc and haven't exactly explained why. Obviously you feel strongly about this and I'm sure it seems clear to you why you're right, but we're not mind-readers here.

[Dalboz of Gurth]

There's only 13 of them,

We're talking about a horror setting, and you mention there are 13 feats.

coughcough.


some have pretty specific requirements (Haunted for example requires someone close to you to die, this one is actually a pretty nice if creepy feat.), but none seems particularly powerful.

Haunted - by original Ravenloft Rules that'd be either an immediate powers check, or an immediate curse check. Your pick :D

Unfortunately, to compound the other issues RL has with 3rd Edition, White Wolf did absolute 0 investigation into the entire concept of Powers and Curse Checks, so that entire system has been butchered beyond recognition into a WoD style game. Of which is a luke warm weak watered down version of 2nd Edition REAL Ravenloft.


Theres a trio of feats that grant you a bonus on fear, horror, and madness individually, but they all seem inferior to iron will.

How can I make you understand that Fear and Horror checks are one of the major founding blocks for the Demi-plane of Dread? I've only said it about 80,000 times in this thread alone.

Feats weren't the only reason for the downfall of RL in 3rd edition, they were a main reason, but other reasons were soon compounded.

[Dalboz of Gurth]

Dalboz: you're a new member on this forum, and you have a lot to say, obviously. Not to take anything away from what you're saying (and I've ever played 2e, never played any White Wolf game, never played any edition of Ravenloft, so I can't argue with you at all) but maybe Kurald wants to hear from more than just one person about this.

Note: I agree with him that you haven't really backed up what you're saying though; you just say "this sucks, they rined it" etc and haven't exactly explained why. Obviously you feel strongly about this and I'm sure it seems clear to you why you're right, but we're not mind-readers here.

yes you are right, I am srry if I seem very confrontational. But it is also frustrating on my end because I really don't remember all the reasons or detailed reasons why I didn't buy the 3e book, and it seems like people are calling me a liar because I am not providing page by page step by step quotations of the major issues.

-_-


Edit: Ok let me talk about horror and fear checks. Madness checks are also present in 2nd edition ravenloft, but they aren't as popular or widely used. The major problem with trying to explain them is it takes about 2 full blown chapters of rules in the original Ravenloft handbook.

Basically Fear and Horror checks revolve around +1's -2's. They are minor modifiers which add up. Everyone has to face the same value of a check when you make the check.

If you have a player who has a feat which gives you + whatever in wisdom or fear. Then that player has an edge. A MAJOR edge. Even a measily +1 is a major edge in Fear and Horror Checks.

How? A +1 is essentially a +5% modifer between being running away, being frozen with fear, or standing your ground. Running away or being frozen with fear can LITERALLY kill you. You can get a +1 modifier without using feats just due to circumstances.

Having between +3 to +4, to a character's fear or horror modifier, creates a 15-20% gap that can force the DM to adjust the fear/horror modifiers in order to force everyone to face the check. By trying to adjust it so one player who's almost immune to fear is FORCED to make a roll that MIGHT make him fearful, will obviously put other characters at a major disadvantage.

IF you don't adjust for the gap, then 1 player will always make his fear/horror roll, and if that player is a god unto men (such as an assassin) then there's no use even being in Ravenloft. It utterly and completely destroys one of the fundamental aspects of the game.

Basically you're left with a choice:

1. should there be a possibility the entire party runs in fear? thus severely putting a disadvantage against everyone else?
or
2. should everyone but the super killing machine have a possibility to run in fear but have a good shot at resisting it.


That's one of the basic problems with 3e and Ravenloft.

[Mr. Friendly]

My own take on Ravenloft 3e:

First, I will preface by saying that I hated the Ravenloft Campaign setting for 2e. I thought the whole Demiplane of Dread notion was a bunch of garbage. I like the original Ravenloft module. I (kinda) liked the 3.5 remake of that module.

Next, I would like to say that I hate WoD and the White Wolf system with a burning passion rivaled only by an Undead Lords hatred for the living.

Finally, on to 3e Ravenloft. Utter crap. I played it, I read the book. It just sucks. I don't even think it sucks because I hate Ravenloft as a whole. I think it sucks because it was subpar, shoddy work. It was a quick and easy buck with seemingly no real effort put into it at all. In short, I hate it because it was poorly crafted and seemed like it was uncerimoniously squirted out to get somebody a few quick bucks.

[TheDarkOne]

Fear, Horror and Madness checks in D20 ravenloft are just will saves that resistance and luck bonuses don't count against. There's a list of some simple circumstance modifiers, like you get bonuses when a loved one is endangered, or penalties when you're partially responsible for what ever horrible thing is happening. The bottom line is, the paladin with divine grace, Courage as a bonus feat(+4 to fear checks, they get this when they become immune to magical fear), and an ok wis score, should never be failing more fear checks then the rogue. I mean it's possible in some cases, but this would only be when the rogue was trying to optimize his fear check, and the paladin made some questionable ability score choices, but in those cases the rogue should be passing more fear checks then the paladin, because those feats and ability score choices represent the rogue being very resilient to fear.

[Kurald Galain]

You asked why people disliked Ravenloft. I gave you the reasons why most didn't.
You != most. And also, your opinion != fact.



I don't know what to tell you. I tell you the answer of why I hate it, and you just seem to want to argue with the answer because you love 3e so much you can't stand to listen to anyone's criticism.
This is getting funnier by the minute. Within an hour, I am told by one person that I "obviously" love 2E so much that I can't properly judge 3E, and by another person that I "obviously" love 3E so much that I can't properly judge something else. And neither of you have any clue of what I'm actually playing (which, in fact, is neither, but people who've seen me around for longer may have noticed me bringing TORG and Paranoia up a lot). But then, jumping to conclusions is so much fun if it allows you to insult people...


In the chain of stores I worked at Palladium sold quite a bit more than White Wolf.
So therefore the same is true in the rest of the world? I know zero people who play Palladium, and zero stores that sell it, and have not seen any Palladium books in at all the biggest game selling convention in Europe. "It hasn't been updated because it's already perfect" is a total non sequitur.

This is tangential, but I would be interersted in learning what, say, the ten best-selling RPGs are over the past year or so. I suspect D&D, GURPS and Whitewolf are near the top, but that leaves many slots open. I also suspect that games based upon popular books or shows (like the Wheel of Time RPG, or the Buffy RPG) would sell well among people who hadn't played RPGs before.


#1 problem I have with white wolf - their rules contradict themselves.
Sure they do. Most big systems contradict themselves at some point. Streamlining that is one of the strong points of NWOD. Feel free to start a thread on what's wholly wrong with White Wolf works; but WW has always been more about the fluff than about the crunch.


It was a little line in the ST job description likening them to puppetmasters. You can go find it yourself.
You don't seriously expect me to go look through dozens of rulebooks to see if I can find a single paraphrased quote, now do you? Occam's razor suggests that you may have misremembered it, and/or made it up.

However, I found an interesting tidbit on Wikipedia. It turns out that, when they got the license from WOTC, Whitewolf wasn't allowed to use certain people who fell under the licensing of another world - e.g. Lord Soth is from Dragonlance and Vecna is from Greyhawk, and WW had rights to neither. Such legal problems may account for some of its flaws.


In short, I hate it because it was poorly crafted and seemed like it was uncerimoniously squirted out to get somebody a few quick bucks.
This ties in with the above. Given that both WOTC and WW are commercial entities, it's hardly surprising that some of their books are shoddily put together to capitalize on a hype. I can think of several books by either that fit this description.

[SpikeFightwicky]

My main beef with the 3.X Ravenloft is that horror in general isn't compatible with 3.X rules. It's not anyone's fault, it's just that they don't work. Hereare some reasons why (In my opinion and experience):

- In 3.X, every possible thing a player can do has a rule behind it and some numbers. The problem with this (and with players native to 3.X who never played 2nd ed.) is that somethings will seem unfair. For example, in second ed., if a player wronged the Vistani and got cursed, tough break. You'll have to find a way to make amends. In 3rd ed., as presented, there's always some way around (be it a save or a spell, or some such). You have to bend the rules to make an unavoidable curse (and even if a PC deserved it, it will seem overly cruel since there are 'supposed' to be spells and saves to prevent this from happening). This spoils a bit of the whole horror/terror feeling, since anything that happens will involve numbers, and any encounter will involve a statted monster (nothing in 3.X is unstatted... even gods are statted).

- Power creep: In 2nd ed., players would rarely be able to 'solo' encounters, and there was no 'auto-win' button like shock-trooper charge monkey, or the myriad spells that make arcanists or codzillas more powerful than most even level monsters. This alone wipes away alot of the horror aspect. When the PCs are the most powerful beings that go bump in the night, it makes them somewhat fearless, and makes it harder to play with in-game horror and madness type checks.

- The Darklords (Related to power creep): The darklords are alot less impressive in 2nd ed. Due to the apparent attempt to give game stats to everything and make everything run by the rules, the darklords are alot less special. A DL with 50 HP is a joke unless he has absurd AC, but within the rules, his AC can't go that high unless you give him magic items. As the DM you can always just give him some 'Dark' bonus to anything you want, but that seems to me like something that should have been included in the sourcebooks. It shouldn't be: here's a darklord 'template', spruce him up by bending game rules to make him not die instantly because he's too weak for his CR.

- Fast levelling?: This may just be a personal nitpick, but 3.X characters level WAY faster than their 2nd ed analogs. The lower level the PCs are, the better 'horror' can work since they're vulnerable. Also, something like a Jack the Ripper serial killer can be EASILY tracked by a ranger, and it gets lame if you always use some fiat to make him float/hover/fly/teleport to conceal tracks.

That said, I think d20 Modern or d20 CoC is a better horror setting than D&D (though still not perfect thanks to the intricacies of the d20 system) since the characters are less powerful overall. Nothing beats Chaosium CoC creating a desperate atmosphere, though.

[Dalboz of Gurth]

Kurlad, you clearly are trying to derail your thread, and I said before, it's clear you don't even want to listen to anything being said. You are just trying to pick a fight.

While I haven't been overtly specific in some of the major problems with Ravenloft, your own absolute refusal to listen to anything being said is not justification for saying that I don't know my subject.

For you to be properly schooled in the differences of ravenloft, you would need these things:

1. To have extensive experience of Ravenloft rule system. Which you have none.
2. To have read through the 3rd edition book at least once. Which you have not done.
3. All the critical books books sitting on your desk at once and enough time in the day to read and compare notes through each one.

While I haven't explained every little detail of which you demand an answer, I have already explained fear and horror checks to you, and you still refuse to listen. Even if I owned 3e ravenloft, you made it clear you wouldn't listen to any of the comparisons because you are a die hard 3e supporter.

You are choosing bliss over knowledge.

So enjoy your ignorance, I'm sure it's bliss.

[Dalboz of Gurth]

Thank you for providing more detail and insight :)


My main beef with the 3.X Ravenloft is that horror in general isn't compatible with 3.X rules. It's not anyone's fault, it's just that they don't work. Hereare some reasons why (In my opinion and experience):

- In 3.X, every possible thing a player can do has a rule behind it and some numbers. The problem with this (and with players native to 3.X who never played 2nd ed.) is that somethings will seem unfair. For example, in second ed., if a player wronged the Vistani and got cursed, tough break. You'll have to find a way to make amends. In 3rd ed., as presented, there's always some way around (be it a save or a spell, or some such). You have to bend the rules to make an unavoidable curse (and even if a PC deserved it, it will seem overly cruel since there are 'supposed' to be spells and saves to prevent this from happening). This spoils a bit of the whole horror/terror feeling, since anything that happens will involve numbers, and any encounter will involve a statted monster (nothing in 3.X is unstatted... even gods are statted).

Thank you ^_^ I knew I had forgotten something about the vistani but I didn't want to open my mouth because I had blocked 3e ravenloft from my mind.


- Power creep: In 2nd ed., players would rarely be able to 'solo' encounters, and there was no 'auto-win' button like shock-trooper charge monkey, or the myriad spells that make arcanists or codzillas more powerful than most even level monsters. This alone wipes away alot of the horror aspect. When the PCs are the most powerful beings that go bump in the night, it makes them somewhat fearless, and makes it harder to play with in-game horror and madness type checks.

Yep ^_^ 100% true.



- The Darklords (Related to power creep): The darklords are alot less impressive in 2nd ed. Due to the apparent attempt to give game stats to everything and make everything run by the rules, the darklords are alot less special. A DL with 50 HP is a joke unless he has absurd AC, but within the rules, his AC can't go that high unless you give him magic items. As the DM you can always just give him some 'Dark' bonus to anything you want, but that seems to me like something that should have been included in the sourcebooks. It shouldn't be: here's a darklord 'template', spruce him up by bending game rules to make him not die instantly because he's too weak for his CR.

This is where I blame White Wolf. The straight conversions of Ravenloft to 3rd edition originally made the Dark Lords god level beings. This is why WoTC dumped earlier attempts at conversion because the Dark Lords became more powerful than the lands. White Wolf's interpretation was an attempt to fudge the conversion tables. It is my belief this fudging made them weak.



- Fast levelling?: This may just be a personal nitpick, but 3.X characters level WAY faster than their 2nd ed analogs. The lower level the PCs are, the better 'horror' can work since they're vulnerable. Also, something like a Jack the Ripper serial killer can be EASILY tracked by a ranger, and it gets lame if you always use some fiat to make him float/hover/fly/teleport to conceal tracks.

I think fast leveling has a lot to do with the previous comments on power creeping - the players having 0 fear about the consequences of battle.



That said, I think d20 Modern or d20 CoC is a better horror setting than D&D (though still not perfect thanks to the intricacies of the d20 system) since the characters are less powerful overall. Nothing beats Chaosium CoC creating a desperate atmosphere, though.

I've heard that Chaosium was more Ravenloft than 3e Ravenloft.

To add to that list, ScreamPUNK is almost pure Ravenloft. So for GURPS players, that's a good alternative than 3e Ravenloft.

[SpikeFightwicky]

Kurlad, you clearly are trying to derail your thread, and I said before, it's clear you don't even want to listen to anything being said. You are just trying to pick a fight.

While I haven't been overtly specific in some of the major problems with Ravenloft, your own absolute refusal to listen to anything being said is not justification for saying that I don't know my subject.

For you to be properly schooled in the differences of ravenloft, you would need these things:

1. To have extensive experience of Ravenloft rule system. Which you have none.
2. To have read through the 3rd edition book at least once. Which you have not done.
3. All the critical books books sitting on your desk at once and enough time in the day to read and compare notes through each one.

While I haven't explained every little detail of which you demand an answer, I have already explained fear and horror checks to you, and you still refuse to listen. Even if I owned 3e ravenloft, you made it clear you wouldn't listen to any of the comparisons because you are a die hard 3e supporter.

You are choosing bliss over knowledge.

So enjoy your ignorance, I'm sure it's bliss.

Maybe just a little information would help your case... You stated that the Feat system is one of the major flaws. How? You mentioned that with feats, you made a version of Soth that was so powerful, he twisted the dark powers to his whim and by extension overpowered the DM and began running the game. HOW? I know I'd get alot of peace of mind if you could explain how a DM could create a creature that breaks the DMs rules.

BTW, I do agree that horror and Madness seem very 'off' in 3rd ed. Every 3rd ed player I've played with hated them so much (the main argument is that they're intrusive - they don't let the PC play his character the way he wants). I had no trouble running it in 2nd ed.


I've heard that Chaosium was more Ravenloft than 3e Ravenloft.

To add to that list, ScreamPUNK is almost pure Ravenloft. So for GURPS players, that's a good alternative than 3e Ravenloft.

Never heard of ScreamPUNK... I have a huge problem with combat in GURPS (we played GURPS game, and a bar-room brawl took 3 hours, and the only thing we got out of it is that the quarterstaff is the most broken weapon :smallbiggrin: )

Chaosium is definately more Ravenloft than 3rd ed. could ever hope to accomplish. Then again, the more 'rules lite' the system is, the easier a horror game seems to be.

[Dalboz of Gurth]

Maybe just a little information would help your case... You stated that the Feat system is one of the major flaws. How? You mentioned that with feats, you made a version of Soth that was so powerful, he twisted the dark powers to his whim and by extension overpowered the DM and began running the game. HOW? I know I'd get alot of peace of mind if you could explain how a DM could create a creature that breaks the DMs rules.

BTW, I do agree that horror and Madness seem very 'off' in 3rd ed. Every 3rd ed player I've played with hated them so much (the main argument is that they're intrusive - they don't let the PC play his character the way he wants). I had no trouble running it in 2nd ed.


yes you're right, I haven't posed the best argument in this thread (most of that is due to failing my madness check when I read 3e Ravenloft ;) ).

However, I do believe you covered most of the problems I have with the feat system. So thank you for your previous post :D it was very informative and did cover a lot of what I mentally blocked out.

I also tried to explain at least the fundamental problems with fear/horror/madness checks (which is the best explanation I believe you can have without going into 5 pages of pure text). As well as the curse checks. The Vistani curse was another critical portion of Ravenloft.

[Kurald Galain]

Kurlad, you clearly are trying to derail your thread, and I said before, it's clear you don't even want to listen to anything being said. You are just trying to pick a fight.
Have you heard the one about the kettle?



For you to be properly schooled in the differences of ravenloft, you would need these things:
"Properly schooled" :smallbiggrin: yes, they have PHDs in RPG systems now. Since you are obviously so very clever as to be able to tell the difference between an ad hominem and an actual argument, I suggest you likewise look up the difference between unsubstantiated opinion, and fact.

[tainsouvra]

yes you are right, I am srry if I seem very confrontational. But it is also frustrating on my end because I really don't remember all the reasons or detailed reasons why I didn't buy the 3e book, and it seems like people are calling me a liar because I am not providing page by page step by step quotations of the major issues. Dalboz, think about this a moment. You are condemning a setting for reasons you cannot provide. That inherently makes your position sound trite and arbitrary because you give no reason for your opinion. Pointing that out doesn't mean you are being called a liar, it means you are being reminded that opinions with absolutely no facts or reasoning behind them are essentially meaningless. It's completely absurd to expect anyone to agree with you when even you yourself don't remember why you have that opinion, so don't explode at people who are merely pointing out the apparent arbitrarity of your statements.

[Dalboz of Gurth]

You mentioned that with feats, you made a version of Soth that was so powerful, he twisted the dark powers to his whim and by extension overpowered the DM and began running the game. HOW? I know I'd get alot of peace of mind if you could explain how a DM could create a creature that breaks the DMs rules.

Sorry I didn't reply to the soth comment earlier.

Ok here's Soth's last "revised" Character sheet of AD&D in "Domains of Dread":
Death Knight, Chaotic Evil
Armor Class -3
Str 18/99
Dex 14
Con 17
Int 10
Wis 9
Cha 17
level/HD: 9
HP : 89
Thac0: 5
Movement: 12
Damage/attack: 1d8+6 (sword of wounding plus strength bonus) or 1d6 cold touch

Magic Resistance:
Lord Soth has a 75% magic resistance, additionally on a roll of 11 or less he reflects the spell back at the caster. In his castle, he need roll only a 22 or less to reflect a spell.

Soth can exert complete control over any lesser undead in his domain and control other undead of up to 8hd as if he were a 6th level evil cleric. Although he is undead, he cannot ever be turned or controlled.

Soth has all the traits of any Death Knight in the MM.

He generates fear in a radius of five feet (even kender feel uneasy around him, and they are incapable of fear), and can cast detect magic, detect inivis, and wall of ice at will.
Twice per day he can cast dispel magic.
once per day he can use a power word of his choice.
He can cast symbole of fear or symbol of pain, as well as a 20 die fireball (each of them) once per day.
He can shadow walk to any point in sithicus.
He casts all spells as if he were 20th level.

He has an AC of -3, due to his +3 magical black rose platemail.


Now, that's 2nd edition Soth.

The primary rule in Ravenloft is this:
All NPCs are just PCs controlled by the DM. That means that Soth would have to be converted using a full character sheet.

The character sheet other people kept coming up with, as well as the one I playfully worked on, involved Lord Soth improving his control over spell casting and generating fear. I'm sorry I don't have that sheet anymore or copies of sheets people came up with all I can do is suggest you basically try to do what everyone else did and see what the results are for yourself.

Lord Soth is already one of the most powerful Domain Lords ever conceived for Ravenloft. Imagine adding 9 levels worth of feats and proficiencies designed entirely toward his mastery of magic. He already casts spells as if he were a 20th level wizard/cleric.

20th level.

Think of the additional benefits he would gain from using proficiencies and feats designed to increase his magical output.

Basically what happens is a player wants into his realm and they're instantly under Soth's control or dead!


He's broken free from Ravenloft before, and in fact, the only reason the lands can keep him in Sithicus is by taunting him with Kitiara's spirit. Imagine a 20th level Lord Soth with enough combat/spell casting proficiencies and feats and knowledge and conversions, his sword would instantly kill any player in one swing, he can raise kitiara from the dead, or coerce a player character in doing so, and then conquer the known universe!

One of the major problems with White Wolf and regular 3rd Edition is the removal of certain limitations (such as raise dead/reincarnate). I mean, with all of this adding up it turned into a major, major disaster of a conversion attempt. So in order to "Fix" the problem White Wolf made the Domain Lords weak and pathetic.


I know I'm not being overtly specific, but I trust that you who do have experience with Ravenloft understand the implications of what I have discussed (and what the original arguments and frustrations were over at the Kargotane).


Never heard of ScreamPUNK... I have a huge problem with combat in GURPS (we played GURPS game, and a bar-room brawl took 3 hours, and the only thing we got out of it is that the quarterstaff is the most broken weapon :smallbiggrin: )

Chaosium is definately more Ravenloft than 3rd ed. could ever hope to accomplish. Then again, the more 'rules lite' the system is, the easier a horror game seems to be.

ScreamPUNK is a little pamphlet type of rulebook, it's about the size of an oversized novel (5x8). It cost about 12 bucks, but was very thurough in creating a Horror/Fear oriented GURPS game.

I think it's still being sold. I have no idea where my copy is atm so I can't find the ISBN for you. :(

It was originally intended for SteamPUNK but the rules can work for any game (such as palladium), and in fact, you can probably use it to rewrite some of the major Ravenloft rules for 3rd edition. It managed to do what White Wolf failed to do. GURPS does have major combat issues, and if it weren't for some of the more insane rules in GURPS I'd be playing it (in GURPS Starfleet you can survive 4500 rads of radiation :biggrin: - for those who don't know, that's more than enough radiation to instantly kill any living organism).

I do like GURPS Conan, however (this was before 4th edition GURPS came out).


I will have to look at Chaosium, ty for your reccomendation ^_^

[Dalboz of Gurth]

Dalboz, think about this a moment. You are condemning a setting for reasons you cannot provide. That inherently makes your position sound trite and arbitrary because you give no reason for your opinion. Pointing that out doesn't mean you are being called a liar, it means you are being reminded that opinions with absolutely no facts or reasoning behind them are essentially meaningless. It's completely absurd to expect anyone to agree with you when even you yourself don't remember why you have that opinion, so don't explode at people who are merely pointing out the apparent arbitrarity of your statements.

I've provided several reasons that are legitimate. The problem is trying to demand that I provide all of the reasons.

I'm sorry but that's not going to happen. If someone wants all of the reasons then they can go find them out themselves.

The reasons provided are:

1. butchering of fear and horror
2. issues with NPC conversions
3. Laws of the Lands being arbitrarily tossed aside by White Wolf
4. Other things such as madness and vistani curses, etc...

I provided at least two of these reasons, others have also made comments about the other reasons and their own perceptions.

If someone cannot accept that there is more wrong with this then that is their problem. There have been enough comments made now that discuss the bigger issues with the game system/setting to justify any "arbitrary" point of view you or anyone feels I have expressed.

[tainsouvra]

I've provided several reasons that are legitimate. The problem is trying to demand that I provide all of the reasons.

I'm sorry but that's not going to happen. If someone wants all of the reasons then they can go find them out themselves. :smallamused: I'd be laughing if I wasn't so sure you were being serious. "I'm right, but I won't explain why I'm right--I'll expect you to justify my opinion for me" is just plain hilarious, particularly on an internet forum.

[Dalboz of Gurth]

:smallamused: I'd be laughing if I wasn't so sure you were being serious. "I'm right, but I won't explain why I'm right--I'll expect you to justify my opinion for me" is just plain hilarious, particularly on an internet forum.

How about you use those eyes god gave you, go back, and re-read some posts. Because I did provide enough proof. And so did at least one other poster.

[tainsouvra]

How about you use those eyes god gave you, go back, and re-read some posts. Because I did provide enough proof. And so did at least one other poster. Are you familiar with the Forum Rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1)? The rules on flaming are much more stringent here than on most forums. In particular, what I quoted above runs afoul of them.

Calm down, take a breath, remember that we're all here to have fun. It'll help :smallsmile:

[Dalboz of Gurth]

Are you familiar with the Forum Rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1)? The rules on flaming are much more stringent here than on most forums. In particular, what I quoted above runs afoul of them.

Calm down, take a breath, remember that we're all here to have fun. It'll help :smallsmile:

If what you quoted of me runs afoul of flaming, then so does this:


I'd be laughing if I wasn't so sure you were being serious. "I'm right, but I won't explain why I'm right--I'll expect you to justify my opinion for me" is just plain hilarious, particularly on an internet forum.

If you really want to discuss then discuss, don't insult.

Now, if you want to discuss then I ask you outright, which one of these do you need to have explained in fuller detail:

1. butchering of fear and horror
2. issues with NPC conversions
3. Laws of the Lands being arbitrarily tossed aside by White Wolf
4. Other things such as madness and vistani curses, etc...


If I can't answer the question then I have no doubt that Spike can. Spike has demonstrated some great familiarity with Ravenloft and I am positive he can fill in the blanks left by my madness failure check.

[tainsouvra]

If you really want to discuss then discuss, don't insult. My comment had not been intended as an insult, and I apologize for stating it in a manner that could be taken that way. I find the "don't bother with proof, I know I'm right" approach personally amusing and did not realize you would feel insulted for being called out on it.

[Dalboz of Gurth]

My comment had not been intended as an insult, and I apologize for stating it in a manner that could be taken that way. I find the "don't bother with proof, I know I'm right" approach personally amusing and did not realize you would feel insulted for being called out on it.

alright then, let's work through this.

Here is one of my problems: being overwhelmed with the idea of posting EVERYTHING that's wrong with Ravenloft being converted. Pretty much everything about the conversion was wrong. So to report everything all at once is a little insane for me if you can understand where I come from.

So let's do baby steps, and I'm sure between myself and other members on the board (members more familiar with 3e than I am) can fill you in on the major issues.

So which of those four issues would you like to start with first?

[tainsouvra]

Here is one of my problems: being overwhelmed with the idea of posting EVERYTHING that's wrong with Ravenloft being converted. Pretty much everything about the conversion was wrong. So to report everything all at once is a little insane for me if you can understand where I come from. My suggestion is to not fall into the trap of trying to shotgun problems, but to instead approach them one at a time and explain why each is a problem as you identify it as one. This is a much superior alternative to attempting to laundry-list problems without stating how or why the problems come about, as it avoids the "just because I said so" issue.

I don't disagree with you about Ravenloft, I disagree with frequent and unsubstantiated claims backed by more vitriol than explanation. That is why I am pointing out the lack of facts and reasoning rather than disagreeing with your assertions.

Coincidentally, I find it highly ironic that explaining the problems with the Demiplane of Dread is such an insane undertaking.

[Dalboz of Gurth]

edit: It's difficult not to shot gun when someone asks such a broad question. In situations like that it's preferable to shotgun a bunch of statements and see which one the person finds more interesting and wants further explanation.



Coincidentally, I find it highly ironic that explaining the problems with the Demiplane of Dread is such an insane undertaking.

Well what's funny is that prior to 3rd edition, it was perfectly sane :smallbiggrin:

3rd edition introduced an amount of unreconciliable chaos to Ravenloft that just wound up sending people like me back to the loony bin. Hence my rash and violent outbursts towards 3rd edition modifications to Ravenloft.

On the flip side, Sigil/Planescape was TOTALLY and COMPLETELY insane. But the sanity 3rd edition tried to bring to any attempt to convert Sigil, was absolutely insane sanity. Which makes Planescape totally ruined if ported to 3rd edition.

[tainsouvra]

edit: It's difficult not to shot gun when someone asks such a broad question. In situations like that it's preferable to shotgun a bunch of statements and see which one the person finds more interesting and wants further explanation. The problem is that, on the internet and especially on this forum, other posters have an expectation that you will demonstrate why each of your statements is true, and it's generally expected that the demonstration will be immediately forthcoming and not rely on unexplained/unexplainable perceptions. Not having that explanation sets of a lot of red flags, as does taking offense at being called out for it. While you may very well have a good reason, a reason that isn't presented is no reason at all as far as public discourse is concerned.


On the flip side, Sigil/Planescape was TOTALLY and COMPLETELY insane. But the sanity 3rd edition tried to bring to any attempt to convert Sigil, was absolutely insane sanity. Which makes Planescape totally ruined if ported to 3rd edition. I have never even seen it proposed that a roleplaying group out here use a 3E Planescape, which is a rather different sort of red flag, considering how varied interests are out here. Some players talk about games I've never even seen before, but nobody plays Planescape for some reason...

[Dalboz of Gurth]

The problem is that, on the internet and especially on this forum, other posters have an expectation that you will demonstrate why each of your statements is true, and it's generally expected that the demonstration will be immediately forthcoming and not rely on unexplained/unexplainable perceptions. Not having that explanation sets of a lot of red flags, as does taking offense at being called out for it. While you may very well have a good reason, a reason that isn't presented is no reason at all as far as public discourse is concerned.

Like I said, if anyone wanted to pick a specific subject to discuss I could do that ^_^


I have never even seen it proposed that a roleplaying group out here use a 3E Planescape, which is a rather different sort of red flag, considering how varied interests are out here. Some players talk about games I've never even seen before, but nobody plays Planescape for some reason...

I was only barely able to get into 2nd edition Planescape, so I am no authority on the matter, HOWEVER, this is what my friend told me, if you want more information I suggest you find someone with more knowledge than myself to explain what I cover here. But I'll do my best to give you a light overview of what I had been told, ok? :D Afterall, I am a lofter not a Scaper :smallsmile:


Planescape, specifically Sigil (which somehow managed to be ported to 3e without the rest of Planescape), was completely reformed when they re-arranged the planes and how they were layered.
By re-arranging the planes and how they worked, it made a lot of the "rules" that planescape used for the different planes, to be outdated. From my understanding these rules were pretty severe and unique (such as the rules for the Domains in Ravenloft). Basically, without these rules planescape is just another boring generic AD&D campaign setting.

My friend also said the changes in how monsters worked, allowed a fighter to square off toe to toe with a Demon in the Blood War (Blood War is a never ending war between a bunch of demons). I completely believe this, because this is the same change I saw with Fighters facing down Vampires in 3e.

Now concerning sigil, what I can remember about it is this: Sigil was a crossroads of all the planes. It had randomly appearing dimensional doors of sorts (much like Ravenloft). So when the planes were re-ordered, I was told that there was something changed in the rule system of how planes could be entered or exited. Because of this it totally abused the concept of Sigil being the crossroads, and made it easy for anyone who found their way to Sigil to escape from sigil.

To my understanding there was also a rule change which ultimately concerned contracts with demons. Kind of like what they plan on doing to th eWish Spell for 4th edition, apparently was much easier to break a contract with a demon in 3rd edition than in 2nd edition.

again, while I have no problems going into detailed rules for Ravenloft, I have little experience discussing rules for planescape. This is all I remember. Hopefully someone else with more experience with planescape can help you understand why people are upset with the rule changes.

^_^

So basically the reordering of the planes caused some mistcheif that can't be overcome without seriously re-writing or ignoring chapters in 3rd edition. I also believe that the increased "power to the player" severely hurt the threat of Demons. The fact that so few people even discuss 3e Planescape suggests to me the problems are far more severe than my friend explained.

Beyond that, your guess is as good as mine, bud. All I really liked about PS was the concept of good demons/half-demons. And I basically just used those rules as a guideline for writing demon characters from descriptions in the Van Richten Handbooks.

btw, if you can find a detailed explanation to what my friend told me I'd be more than happy to listen to it, because, quite frankly, I'm curious as well.

[EldritchExMachina]

I'm going to step in here as a pretty experienced lofter and say a few things. I'm going to start from the 3rd edition ruleset problems and narrow down to the more specific issues.

1) 3rd Edition expanded rules and accepted mindsets do not lend themselves well to horror. PCs are used to being able to access multiple splatbooks that can make their characters the nastiest things that go bump in the night and are used to multiple encounters a day that to fit into the wander and kill stuff type of playing.

This is not what Ravenloft is about. Ravenloft has always been a story-telling intensive atmosphere. Ravenloft 2nd Ed (or Ravenloft AD&D) was different from 2nd Ed standard just as Ravenloft 3rd Ed is different from 3rd Ed standards. The primary difficulty I have encountered with Ravenloft 3rd Ed is weaning my players off of their various splatbooks back to Core rules modified only by the Ravenloft supplementary information (a thri-keen deathstick whirlwinding whatchamahoozit just doesn't cut it for Ravenloft's setting). The rules White Wolf produced were only meant to be used with Core, and it shows.

Once I have made the demand that the PC stat content be setting intensive, I find it much easier to convey the proper atmosphere within Ravenloft. When I have my players reconciled with the fact that they're not going to be swinging their swords around at goblins every day, the conversion is nearly complete. I believe there was an old TSR marketing line about Ravenloft "There are no random encounters, only deadly ones". The shift is a matter of philosophical departure from 3e.

2) The flavor of White Wolf's Ravenloft is not quite in line with the flavor of TSR's. There is too much World of Darkness influence within the flavor given to White Wolf's Ravenloft, and it shows within all of the fluff. The rules created by White Wolf are not as cumbersome and can work quite effectively as long as my first point's solution is followed.

The solution to this problem is to gather the old fluff and use it. There's no reason one cannot use the old fluff and the new statistics. There is every reason to do so in order to preserve the setting as it once was. The fluff that is used is at the complete beck and call of the Dungeon Master. The books provide a framework for a canvas. It's up to the individual using it to paint on the canvas, and it doesn't take much to retain the consistency of Ravenloft withn 3e and blend in the 2e fluff.

3) I now come down to the individual Lofters. The Lofter community does have a particular disdain for the Ravenloft presented in 3e. I agree with them that it doesn't feel the same, but disagree with any assertion that Ravenloft is any less enjoyable in 3e. The DM and the Player Group determine how enjoyable Ravenloft is in 3e, and any group playing in 3e has to deal with a narrower list of options to have a setting-appropriate Ravenloft experience (as 2e Players that wanted a setting-appropriate Ravenloft experience did).

My problem with 3E Ravenloft was that I was expecting new content that harmonized with the 2E content. White Wolf did not step up to the plate. The new Ravenloft books just don't have the same depth and power of the old Ravenloft books. So use the old content, the fluff that doesn't affect the rules. Ravenloft is about storytelling, not stat crunching. Play it that way.

[Dalboz of Gurth]

That's a very good post EEM, but I do believe you did hit on something when you said:


The rules White Wolf produced were only meant to be used with Core, and it shows.


I just want to point out that originally, Ravenloft was meant to be able to capture, and abduct any player, any class, any race, from anywhere in the AD&D world, and make them feel fear and horror.

The fact that White Wolf produced rules that are only meant to be used with Core rules shows that this has diminished another aspect of the FEAR and HORROR and POWER Ravenloft had over its victims.

Basically now it's like a player can say: "I'm gonna roll a TK Psionic and now I'm immune to being grabbed by the mists of horror! YAY!"


I'm not saying it's impossible to play 3e Ravenloft, I'm just asserting another reason why so many Lofters got fed up with it.

[Fax Celestis]

I just want to point out that originally, Ravenloft was meant to be able to capture, and abduct any player, any class, any race, from anywhere in the AD&D world, and make them feel fear and horror.

That's actually as a direct result of White Wolf's contract with WotC: they were only allowed to reference and include material designated as Open-Game Content. In essence, core-only. This steps on a lot of toes for what Ravenloft is supposed to be.

[EldritchExMachina]

My personal experience with Ravenloft 2E was that certain class/race combinations had an equally diminishing effect on the potential for fear and horror. There is no justifiable way for a Githyanki that has seen the depths of the Abyss and Baator, for instance, to be phased by what Ravenloft has to offer.

3e simply has many many more options, splatbooks, and 3rd party content when compared to 2e that could produce such possibilities.

[Dalboz of Gurth]

That's actually as a direct result of White Wolf's contract with WotC: they were only allowed to reference and include material designated as Open-Game Content. In essence, core-only. This steps on a lot of toes for what Ravenloft is supposed to be.

So you're saying that not only did 3e fail Ravenloft, but the lawyers put their stamp on it as well?

That explains a lot.

[Fax Celestis]

So you're saying that not only did 3e fail Ravenloft, but the lawyers put their stamp on it as well?

That explains a lot.

I'm saying the failure was a direct result of the lawyers, actually.

[BlackStaticWolf]

I'm saying the failure was a direct result of the lawyers, actually.

On behalf of all lawyers everywhere let me just interject here and say...


I'm sorry. Our bad.

[Dalboz of Gurth]

I'm saying the failure was a direct result of the lawyers, actually.

I'm sorry but you can't ignore the failure of the Core Rules to support the Ravenloft ruleset.

Ravenloft can use Core Rules in 2nd edition. If the 3e Core Rules were up to par, then the failure of the lawyers wouldn't have impacted the 3e edition conversion as badly as it did.

However I will accept that much of the problem can now be attributed to the Lawyers as well. That way the core rules don't hold all of the blame.

...Blame Triad
.../.......|.....\
WW....Core...Lawyers

[EldritchExMachina]

I think you misunderstand the statement entirely. 3e's CORE rules work for Ravenloft. Anything beyond core is where the problems begin to happen.

The problems with 3e Ravenloft (to summarize again) are thus:
1) General 3e mindset of players.
2) Failing fluff content from White Wolf.
3) Lack of Ravenloft's ability to support anything beyond Core (this is largely true for 2nd Ed as well).

[Dalboz of Gurth]

I think you misunderstand the statement entirely. 3e's CORE rules work for Ravenloft. Anything beyond core is where the problems begin to happen.

The problems with 3e Ravenloft (to summarize again) are thus:
1) General 3e mindset of players.
2) Failing fluff content from White Wolf.
3) Lack of Ravenloft's ability to support anything beyond Core (this is largely true for 2nd Ed as well).

Ravenloft in 2nd edition worked well with any rules outside of CORE as well as CORE.

So obviously if Ravenloft only works well with Core 3e rules, that means the Core 3e Rules are faulty by preventing Ravenloft from working with all the rules Core and Non-Core.

[EldritchExMachina]

Ravenloft in 2nd edition worked well with any rules outside of CORE as well as CORE.I find this statement to be grossly in error, and have provided an example in a previous post. Please do not reassert this statement without first providing an example of how you believe Ravenloft worked with a 2e Githyanki or Githzerai, a dragon, or other options that create slightly different but entirely similar problems to the 3e situations you have described as being problematic.

[Dalboz of Gurth]

I find this statement to be grossly in error, and have provided an example in a previous post. Please do not reassert this statement without first providing an example of how you believe Ravenloft worked with a 2e Githyanki or Githzerai, a dragon, or other options that create slightly different but entirely similar problems to the 3e situations you have described as being problematic.

Lord Soth

Dragon Lance

Knight of the Rose

Different changes of the Moon.

NON CORE WORLD NON CORE CLASS NON CORE ENVIRONMENT

/case closed

Or you could simply roll up a dragon or a half dragon and play them in my campaign and see for yourself.

Also, least you forget, Van Richten's Compendium (that multi volume set) had rules for Demons in Ravenloft.

[Vva70]

So obviously if Ravenloft only works well with Core 3e rules, that means the Core 3e Rules are faulty by preventing Ravenloft from working with all the rules Core and Non-Core.

I'm not sure I understand your logic here. If Ravenloft works well with 3e core rules, but not 3e expansion rules, then 3e core is fine, but either:

a) 3e expansion rules are sufficiently different from 3e core rules such that Ravenloft mechanics do not apply well to both.

Or

b) White Wolf did not make 3e Ravenloft rules sufficiently generic, thus preventing 3e expansions rules from working properly therein.

Ultimately, what it sounds like has little to do with core vs. non-core rules, but rather it seems that the Ravenloft rules do not apply very well to a party with a large difference in power between characters. That IS a side effect of the 3e core rules, but it has nothing to do with total power level; it has everything to do with increased character customization.

[illathid]

I was only barely able to get into 2nd edition Planescape, so I am no authority on the matter, HOWEVER, this is what my friend told me, if you want more information I suggest you find someone with more knowledge than myself to explain what I cover here. But I'll do my best to give you a light overview of what I had been told, ok? :D Afterall, I am a lofter not a Scaper :smallsmile:


Planescape, specifically Sigil (which somehow managed to be ported to 3e without the rest of Planescape), was completely reformed when they re-arranged the planes and how they were layered.
By re-arranging the planes and how they worked, it made a lot of the "rules" that planescape used for the different planes, to be outdated. From my understanding these rules were pretty severe and unique (such as the rules for the Domains in Ravenloft). Basically, without these rules planescape is just another boring generic AD&D campaign setting.

My friend also said the changes in how monsters worked, allowed a fighter to square off toe to toe with a Demon in the Blood War (Blood War is a never ending war between a bunch of demons). I completely believe this, because this is the same change I saw with Fighters facing down Vampires in 3e.

Now concerning sigil, what I can remember about it is this: Sigil was a crossroads of all the planes. It had randomly appearing dimensional doors of sorts (much like Ravenloft). So when the planes were re-ordered, I was told that there was something changed in the rule system of how planes could be entered or exited. Because of this it totally abused the concept of Sigil being the crossroads, and made it easy for anyone who found their way to Sigil to escape from sigil.

To my understanding there was also a rule change which ultimately concerned contracts with demons. Kind of like what they plan on doing to th eWish Spell for 4th edition, apparently was much easier to break a contract with a demon in 3rd edition than in 2nd edition.

again, while I have no problems going into detailed rules for Ravenloft, I have little experience discussing rules for planescape. This is all I remember. Hopefully someone else with more experience with planescape can help you understand why people are upset with the rule changes.

^_^

So basically the reordering of the planes caused some mistcheif that can't be overcome without seriously re-writing or ignoring chapters in 3rd edition. I also believe that the increased "power to the player" severely hurt the threat of Demons. The fact that so few people even discuss 3e Planescape suggests to me the problems are far more severe than my friend explained.


Actually, many people play 3E updated versions of Planescape campaigns as much of what Planescape is Fluff, and as such is mostly unaffected by the rules used.

Here is a play report (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=77613) from a 3E campaign written by Shemeska the Marauder that I think shows that Planescape is entirely compatible with the new edition. As for your issues about the Blood War and the planes, I think they are unfounded. Could a level 1 fighter go to toe-to-toe with a Pit fiend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#pitFiend) or a Balor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#balor)? Obviously not. He would have to be close to 10th level to even maybe hit him with out relying on a natural 20. Could that same level one fighter go to toe-to-toe with a Dretch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#dretch)or Lemure (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#lemure)? Yes, although they might have some difficulty taking them out before dieing. Is that so different from 2E? I don't believe so. With the changes to the planes, I don't know what in specific is being referenced so I can't give a counter example. It may have something to do with the way spells work on the various planes, but that can easily be brought back in. However, I don't think that the various spell interactions between the planes are that fundamental to Planescape.

Planewalker.com (http://www.planewalker.com) has PDF's that update the Planescape setting to 3.5E for free. You should really examine those, and then you'll be better prepared to say whether 3E and Planescape really are incompatible.

[EvilElitest]

Side note. Isn't this thread ALSO getting derailed? Let's ignore that debate and focus on WHAT Ravenloft exactly does.

here here i'm interested
from,
EE

[Leliel]

Question: Since the only information I know about Ravenloft comes from Wikipedia, could somone please explain to me what Elena Faith-Hold's and Gwyndion's backstories and curses are? And in the case of the former, what happens when she seals her domain?

[Dalboz of Gurth]

Actually, many people play 3E updated versions of Planescape campaigns as much of what Planescape is Fluff, and as such is mostly unaffected by the rules used.

Here is a play report (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=77613) from a 3E campaign written by Shemeska the Marauder that I think shows that Planescape is entirely compatible with the new edition. As for your issues about the Blood War and the planes, I think they are unfounded. Could a level 1 fighter go to toe-to-toe with a Pit fiend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#pitFiend) or a Balor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#balor)? Obviously not. He would have to be close to 10th level to even maybe hit him with out relying on a natural 20. Could that same level one fighter go to toe-to-toe with a Dretch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#dretch)or Lemure (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#lemure)? Yes, although they might have some difficulty taking them out before dieing. Is that so different from 2E? I don't believe so. With the changes to the planes, I don't know what in specific is being referenced so I can't give a counter example. It may have something to do with the way spells work on the various planes, but that can easily be brought back in. However, I don't think that the various spell interactions between the planes are that fundamental to Planescape.

Planewalker.com (http://www.planewalker.com) has PDF's that update the Planescape setting to 3.5E for free. You should really examine those, and then you'll be better prepared to say whether 3E and Planescape really are incompatible.



ok thank you ^_^

I'll reserve any statements on Planescape then. I was just repeating what my friend had said and he was really upset over 3e. So maybe something has changed in 3.5 that wasn't there in 3e.

[Dalboz of Gurth]

Question: Since the only information I know about Ravenloft comes from Wikipedia, could somone please explain to me what Elena Faith-Hold's and Gwyndion's backstories and curses are? And in the case of the former, what happens when she seals her domain?

I can. One second:

The lord of Nidala, a paladin who is never one to reconsider a course of action once she deemed it correct, leapt into a new holy war against any who were not firmly allied with the side of good, ruthlessly crushing the unbelievers and the heathens. During this time of her pogroms, her powers and her horse deserted her. Basically she started a Holy War to purge the land.

She's a lot like Miko in many instances.

When Elena wills it, the air around the border of Nidala hazes over, obscuring vision with an inconsistant waver. Those venturing into this murk find themselves wandering into insubstantial torture chambers. These illusions present the character as the main attraction, with teams of inquisitors working him over eagerly. The farther the character progresses, the less the illusion fluctuates, and the more it seems to become real. Soon, the wayfarer finds himself viewing the chamber through the victim's eyes and feels a twinge of the pain the illusion depicts. If the traveler is so foolish as to continue, it is likely he finds himself fully immersed int he illusion, except that it is no longer an illusion. The escapee from the domain will have wandered from the border of the domain into its heart, the dungeons of Elena's castle.


She's one bad mofo. And I ain't talkin' about shaft.

I'm sorry I must be blind I can't fidn Gwyndion's name in my two books. What land does he/she own?

[Dalboz of Gurth]

I'm not sure I understand your logic here. If Ravenloft works well with 3e core rules, but not 3e expansion rules, then 3e core is fine, but either:

a) 3e expansion rules are sufficiently different from 3e core rules such that Ravenloft mechanics do not apply well to both.

Or

b) White Wolf did not make 3e Ravenloft rules sufficiently generic, thus preventing 3e expansions rules from working properly therein.

Ultimately, what it sounds like has little to do with core vs. non-core rules, but rather it seems that the Ravenloft rules do not apply very well to a party with a large difference in power between characters. That IS a side effect of the 3e core rules, but it has nothing to do with total power level; it has everything to do with increased character customization.

This would be a fair assessment, but that also brings up the issue of why they aren't compatible.

You see, in 2nd edition, even if you played by a wide variety of house rules, allowing demons as PC's, or Liches, or Half Dragons, you could still fit those characters into Ravenloft without a large discrepency.

But in 3e you really can't.

So because there is disagreement on why or how this happens, I'll just stop saying why or how, instead I will say that it happens. Somehow, somewhere along the line, someone flubbed up.

[Leliel]

I can. One second:

The lord of Nidala, a paladin who is never one to reconsider a course of action once she deemed it correct, leapt into a new holy war against any who were not firmly allied with the side of good, ruthlessly crushing the unbelievers and the heathens. During this time of her pogroms, her powers and her horse deserted her. Basically she started a Holy War to purge the land.

She's a lot like Miko in many instances.

When Elena wills it, the air around the border of Nidala hazes over, obscuring vision with an inconsistant waver. Those venturing into this murk find themselves wandering into insubstantial torture chambers. These illusions present the character as the main attraction, with teams of inquisitors working him over eagerly. The farther the character progresses, the less the illusion fluctuates, and the more it seems to become real. Soon, the wayfarer finds himself viewing the chamber through the victim's eyes and feels a twinge of the pain the illusion depicts. If the traveler is so foolish as to continue, it is likely he finds himself fully immersed int he illusion, except that it is no longer an illusion. The escapee from the domain will have wandered from the border of the domain into its heart, the dungeons of Elena's castle.


She's one bad mofo. And I ain't talkin' about shaft.

I'm sorry I must be blind I can't fidn Gwyndion's name in my two books. What land does he/she own?

The Shadow Rift. His name may be spelled with an E, I'm not sure though. From what I can glean, he's the creator of the shadow fey.

[Dalboz of Gurth]

The Shadow Rift. His name may be spelled with an E, I'm not sure though. From what I can glean, he's the creator of the shadow fey.

awwwwggggerrhrhrhhr

bloody <bleep>

Shadow Rift I believe is the one of the few modules I was unable to buy before it went out of stock. Let me see if I can find it though, alright? Someone else might have info on him.

I LIED I LIED I DID BUY IT YAY!

Edit:

ok Gwyndion is well, a freaky shadow fiend immortal type nasty thing. He isn't entirely in one piece. Various bits of his body seem to be all over this is due to him being trapped between realms.
Basically the borders are almost always closed by means of the mists. The further you venture into the mists the more you dissipate. for every 10 feet, 10% of you dissipates. So at 100 feet into the mists, you just simply cease to exist.
Outside of the Obsidian Gate and the fracture that leads to the Obsidian Gate, no other exit exists.

So pray you never find your way into these lands.

[tyckspoon]

Sorry I didn't reply to the soth comment earlier.

Ok here's Soth's last "revised" Character sheet of AD&D in "Domains of Dread":
Death Knight, Chaotic Evil
Armor Class -3
Str 18/99
Dex 14
Con 17
Int 10
Wis 9
Cha 17
level/HD: 9
HP : 89
Thac0: 5
Movement: 12
Damage/attack: 1d8+6 (sword of wounding plus strength bonus) or 1d6 cold touch

Magic Resistance:
Lord Soth has a 75% magic resistance, additionally on a roll of 11 or less he reflects the spell back at the caster. In his castle, he need roll only a 22 or less to reflect a spell.

Soth can exert complete control over any lesser undead in his domain and control other undead of up to 8hd as if he were a 6th level evil cleric. Although he is undead, he cannot ever be turned or controlled.

Soth has all the traits of any Death Knight in the MM.

He generates fear in a radius of five feet (even kender feel uneasy around him, and they are incapable of fear), and can cast detect magic, detect inivis, and wall of ice at will.
Twice per day he can cast dispel magic.
once per day he can use a power word of his choice.
He can cast symbole of fear or symbol of pain, as well as a 20 die fireball (each of them) once per day.
He can shadow walk to any point in sithicus.
He casts all spells as if he were 20th level.

He has an AC of -3, due to his +3 magical black rose platemail.


Now, that's 2nd edition Soth.

The primary rule in Ravenloft is this:
All NPCs are just PCs controlled by the DM. That means that Soth would have to be converted using a full character sheet.

The character sheet other people kept coming up with, as well as the one I playfully worked on, involved Lord Soth improving his control over spell casting and generating fear. I'm sorry I don't have that sheet anymore or copies of sheets people came up with all I can do is suggest you basically try to do what everyone else did and see what the results are for yourself.

Lord Soth is already one of the most powerful Domain Lords ever conceived for Ravenloft. Imagine adding 9 levels worth of feats and proficiencies designed entirely toward his mastery of magic. He already casts spells as if he were a 20th level wizard/cleric.

20th level.

Think of the additional benefits he would gain from using proficiencies and feats designed to increase his magical output.

Basically what happens is a player wants into his realm and they're instantly under Soth's control or dead!


This is a little late, but I think you made a critical mistake in creating this "overpowered" conversion: a caster level of 20 is not the same thing as having 20 levels in a casting class. Unless the sheet you posted left out something very significant - like Soth having been a casting class prior to being a Death Knight, perhaps - a conversion of that sheet into 3.5 would give Soth a specific set of spell-like abilities, for which his effective caster level would be 20. Adding 9 levels in a casting class onto that would hardly break an entire setting- he'd have an effective caster level of 29, but still only have access to 5th level spells at best. The spells that would most take advantage of that pumped casting level are 7th- Holy Word/Blasphemy, which are most effective if your casting level is significantly higher than your enemy's hit dice.

Is this advanced Soth powerful? Yes. He should be- you've made him an 18th level character with a template that is worth +3 CR. According to the standard rules, that makes him an Epic-range creature, although an unusually weak one because he only has 9 caster class levels. You'd have gotten a much more powerful being by advancing him as a martial class or possibly a Blackguard. If you don't add those extra 9 levels, a conversion of his AD&D profile stands a fair chance of making him weaker- the change in the Spell Resistance mechanism would make him much more susceptible to magical effects, for example.

Edit: Ok, his Symbol of Fear Spell-Like Ability would be pretty nasty, but not an auto-effect; it still allows a save, and Soth's DC's wouldn't be pumped much higher than your typical PC's.

[EldritchExMachina]

Lord Soth

Dragon Lance

Knight of the Rose

Different changes of the Moon.

NON CORE WORLD NON CORE CLASS NON CORE ENVIRONMENT

/case closed
Not case closed in the slightest. You have provided one instance where it works, which is highly situational. I do not accept your sweeping statement of case closed as a deathknight who was once human does not deviate from "core" greatly enough to have the specified effect. That same combination would be quite viable for 3E Ravenloft if converted properly.

Or you could simply roll up a dragon or a half dragon and play them in my campaign and see for yourself.

Also, least you forget, Van Richten's Compendium (that multi volume set) had rules for Demons in Ravenloft.Taking this argument into account, I fail to see how the same principles could then be used for the current Ravenloft. Granted, the content isn't spoonfed, but a competant dungeon master and lofter would have little difficulty working with these same limitations.

I will further specify that 2E non-core content has the same difficulties that 3E non-core content will have in that they require special rules, consideration, and modifications.

At the present time, Diabloz, I would like you to formalize your argument, as it seems to stem largely from a "3E is bad" perspective and less of a consideration of the strength and weaknesses of 2E and 3E in how they relate to Ravenloft.

I'd also like to note that I am running a quite wonderful Ravenloft campaign right now in 3E.