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View Full Version : The Hextuple Psychic Piledriver: Or how to wield THE PLANET as a 20d6 weapon



Damon_Tor
2020-12-15, 06:31 PM
Inspired by this thread here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?622461-quot-Can-grapplers-deal-good-damage-quot-A-Tasha-s-build), I resolved to push grappling damage as far as possible using the new options in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything. As it turns out, when you want to body slam some poor sucker into next week, you don't ask the Wookie, you ask the freaking Jedi.

So who is this masked Jedi and how does he do what he do?

Our Jedi Luchador is a Fighter/Barbarian/Wizard. Specifically:
Fighter (Psi Warrior) 12
Barbarian (Elk/Bear Totem) 6
Wizard (Bladesinger) 2
Race: Tabaxi
ASI: Mobile, Athlete (+1 Str), Skill Expertise (Athletics, +1 Str), +2 Str, +2 Con

With Longstrider, Bladesong and Rage, we've got a base movement speed of 85. As a Tabaxi we can double that to 170 for a turn. And then as a psi warrior we can perform a Psi-Powered Leap as a bonus action to turn that into a flight speed of 340. With a Dash, that's a total flight speed of of 680 feet.

We'll assume Rage and Bladesong are both active, as is Longstrider. We'll assume we begin our turn adjacent to our target, but not already engaged in a grapple.

As your Action Dash. As a bonus action, use Psi-Powered Leap.
Use Action Surge to take the Attack Action and make your first attack as a Grapple, having a great chance of success due to advantage, high str and expertise.

Leap (it's technically a fly speed, but it's called a leap) 200 (using 400 feet of movement due to grappling rules) feet into the air. We have 280 feet of flight remaining.
Drop the other guy. He takes 20d6 damage from the fall.
Fall on him from 200 feet in the air. This splits 20d6 damage evenly between us and the target, but we reduce that damage by half because of our Resistance: they take 10d6 damage, we take 5d6
Stand up from prone using 5 feet of your movement speed (which eats 10 feet of flight speed) via the Athlete feat. We have 270 feet of flight remaining.

Use your second attack, also as a grapple.

Leap up 130 feet in the air and drop him for 13d6 damage. We have 10 feet of flight remaining
Fall on him, splitting 13d6 damage evenly with him. He takes 6.5d6 damage, we take 3.25d6 damage.
Stand from prone, using our last 5 feet of movement.

Grapple him again for good measure.


So for those of us keeping track, our opponent took 49.5d6, or about 173.25, damage this turn. We took 8.25d6, or about 28.875, damage. Well that's pretty good, but nothing exceptional, right? So where am I going with this?


Taking it Further
The above is an example of how this works with no magic items or external assistance. So how does this look when I allow for a little help? Specifically, I'm adding just two more things, things unlikely to surprise most of you: Haste as cast by an ally (or via potion) and Boots of Speed.

So the boots of speed double our Tabaxi running speed from 170 to 340. Haste doubles it again to 680. Using Haste's extra action as a dash doubles that to a running speed of 1360, and a flying speed of 2720. (For the record, this is 309 miles per hour) Our action surge is now free to make another attack action, so you see where I'm going with this.


As before, we'll assume Rage and Bladesong are both active, as is Longstrider. An ally has already cast Haste on us and our Boots of Speed are active. We'll assume we begin our turn adjacent to our target, but not already engaged in a grapple. However, this time adjacency doesn't actually matter because we've got 260 feet of movement to spare!

Use your Haste Action to Dash. As a bonus action, use Psi-Powered Leap.
Use your action to take the Attack Action and make your first attack as a Grapple.

Leap 200 (using 400 feet of movement due to grappling rules) feet into the air. We have 2320 feet of flight remaining.
Drop the other guy. He takes 20d6 damage from the fall.
Fall on him from 200 feet in the air: they take 10d6 damage, we take 5d6
Stand up from prone using 5 feet of your movement speed (which eats 10 feet of flight speed). We have 2310 feet of flight remaining.

Use your second attack, also as a grapple.

Leap 200 (using 400 feet of movement due to grappling rules) feet into the air. We have 1910 feet of flight remaining.
Drop the other guy. He takes 20d6 damage from the fall.
Fall on him from 200 feet in the air: he takes 10d6 damage, we take 5d6
Stand up from prone using 5 feet of your movement speed (which eats 10 feet of flight speed). We have 1900 feet of flight remaining.

Use your third attack as a grapple.

Leap 200 (using 400 feet of movement due to grappling rules) feet into the air. We have 1500 feet of flight remaining.
Drop the other guy. He takes 20d6 damage from the fall.
Fall on him from 200 feet in the air: he takes 10d6 damage, we take 5d6
Stand up from prone using 5 feet of your movement speed (which eats 10 feet of flight speed). We have 1490 feet of flight remaining.

Action Surge to perform another Attack Action. Use your first attack as a grapple.

Leap 200 (using 400 feet of movement due to grappling rules) feet into the air. We have 1090 feet of flight remaining.
Drop the other guy. He takes 20d6 damage from the fall.
Fall on him from 200 feet in the air: he takes 10d6 damage, we take 5d6
Stand up from prone using 5 feet of your movement speed (which eats 10 feet of flight speed). We have 1080 feet of flight remaining.

Use your second attack, also as a grapple.

Leap 200 (using 400 feet of movement due to grappling rules) feet into the air. We have 680 feet of flight remaining.
Drop the other guy. He takes 20d6 damage from the fall.
Fall on him from 200 feet in the air: he takes 10d6 damage, we take 5d6
Stand up from prone using 5 feet of your movement speed (which eats 10 feet of flight speed). We have 670 feet of flight remaining.

Use your third attack as a grapple.

Leap 200 (using 400 feet of movement due to grappling rules) feet into the air. We have 270 feet of flight remaining.
Drop the other guy. He takes 20d6 damage from the fall.
Fall on him from 200 feet in the air: he takes 10d6 damage, we take 5d6
Stand up from prone using 5 feet of your movement speed (which eats 10 feet of flight speed). We have 260 feet of flight remaining.

Just to be a jerk, Fly up 200 feet again and land on the other guy, so he takes another 10d6 damage and you take 5d6.
You've got just a little movespeed left, and is that guy still twitching? Fly up 60 feet and land on him one last time for 6d6 damage to him and 3d6 to you.


The final score: the other guy took 196d6, or ~686, damage! That would kill literally anything in the game. We took 38d6, or 133 damage. That's quite a beating, but well within our tolerances as a level 20 fighter/barbarian.


Random Thoughts
"But Damon" you say. "The size restrictions on grappling prevent you from killing some stuff with this tactic". And you're right, of course. There are a few ways to mitigate this, naturally. A friendly spellcaster can biggen you up or shrink your foe with Enlarge/Reduce. This allows you to grapple huge targets, but not gargantuan ones, unless you've got two friendly spellcasters willing to both grow you and shrink the other other guy, while a third supplies your haste. Another way: get a friendly spellcaster to Ready Action: Polymorph on you. Then once you've already activated your various class/racial features at the start of your turn, said Spellcaster will cast it, turning you into a Giant Ape. The Ape would only allow you four grapples instead of your normal six, but you would be able to grapple anything at all, up to and including the tarrasque. You know you want to see King Kong suplex Godzilla!

This isn't a maximum speed build: I could have added two levels of monk in place of fighter 12 and Barbarian 6 to squeeze out another 10 feet of base movement. But I didn't care for how MAD that made the build, and I was well past what I needed in the final exercise anyway. I had a version of this build where I had levels in Astral Form Monk and Moon druid: I would Wildshape into a creature with a 60 foot base movement speed, but use the monk's Astral Arms so I still had hands to grapple with! It was a funny mental image.

Would a Jedi take levels in barbarian? Anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. So maybe our boy here taps into the dark side a little more than Master Yoda would prefer.

MaxWilson
2020-12-15, 06:53 PM
Amusing.

Won't kill most things with high CR because they often fly, but definitely amusing.

Damon_Tor
2020-12-15, 07:00 PM
Amusing.

Won't kill most things with high CR because they often fly, but definitely amusing.

So it starts at elevation? Good, that saves us some movespeed!

So instead we fly up to it and use our first action to shove it prone. It falls and takes damage, we drop and land on it, and the whole sequence continues as normal. There's maybe a slight drop in damage if the initial fall wasn't from the full 200 feet, but I won't lose too much sleep over it.

Gignere
2020-12-15, 07:51 PM
The only problem with this build is it takes a long time before you can start doing piledrivers.

Damon_Tor
2020-12-15, 08:08 PM
The only problem with this build is it takes a long time before you can start doing piledrivers.

You can do one really good piledriver as early as level 7 when you get the Psi-Powered Leap. Let's say you have mobile already, so your speed is 40, Tabaxi doubles that to 80, Action Surge Dash takes it to 160, for a total flight speed of 320 (but a piledriver height of 160)

So you can still do a 24d6 piledriver while you take 8d6 yourself. By level 8 you can get your first Barbarian level and cut the damage you take in half.

EDIT: And of course by level 7 your teammate has haste ready for you too, and can cast Longstrider on you as well. So the reality is your speed is 50, Tabaxi doubles that to 100, Haste doubles that to 200, Dash makes it 400 for a flight speed of 800. so you have two full-powered 200 foot piledrivers available to you at level 7. 60d6 damage to your opponent, 20d6 to yourself.

MaxWilson
2020-12-15, 08:32 PM
So it starts at elevation? Good, that saves us some movespeed!

So instead we fly up to it and use our first action to shove it prone. It falls and takes damage, we drop and land on it, and the whole sequence continues as normal. There's maybe a slight drop in damage if the initial fall wasn't from the full 200 feet, but I won't lose too much sleep over it.

Will that plan actually work on a Nightwalker? (No. Immune to Prone.) How about a Beholder? (No. Hover.) Pit Fiend? (Partially maybe. You burn an extra attack Shoving it prone, and it's got +8 on Athletics so you'll lose some Athletics contests.) Wraith? Can't be grappled. Adult Dragon? Size issues plus flying.

Definitely amusing though. Will work sometimes, almost as often as any other grapple/shove-based shenanighans, which is quite often. And you have to activate Rage so it's not a Round 1 move. Not OP.



EDIT: And of course by level 7 your teammate has haste ready for you too, and can cast Longstrider on you as well. So the reality is your speed is 50, Tabaxi doubles that to 100, Haste doubles that to 200, Dash makes it 400 for a flight speed of 800. so you have two full-powered 200 foot piledrivers available to you at level 7. 60d6 damage to your opponent, 20d6 to yourself.

You only have one ASI by level 7. Are you taking Athlete before Mobile even though Mobile is listed first?

Damon_Tor
2020-12-15, 08:37 PM
You only have one ASI by level 7. Are you taking Athlete before Mobile even though Mobile is listed first?

Fighters get an ASI at level 6.

MaxWilson
2020-12-15, 08:44 PM
Fighters get an ASI at level 6.

Oh, you're going to do it without Rage resistance? Okay. For some reason I thought Barb Rage that was key to your build but now I see from your numbers in the last post that it wasn't.

Correction accepted.

I would pay good money to watch that happen to a Death Knight.

"Aaaaaaaaaah!"
Thud.
(Feebly) "Aaah."
Splat.

JediMaster
2020-12-15, 08:49 PM
Spike Growth works far better and more effectively as a movement to damage converter allowing you to shred targets with only one attack invested, freeing you to shred up additional targets with your other attacks.

Damon_Tor
2020-12-15, 09:11 PM
Oh, you're going to do it without Rage resistance? Okay. For some reason I thought Barb Rage that was key to your build but now I see from your numbers in the last post that it wasn't.

I mean, it isn't ideal, but the fact that we take just 1/3 of the damage the other guy takes makes it a pretty good deal even without the rage, assuming the other guy is a tough sucker who really has to die and fast. But there's just one level where you have to put up with not having rage available to you anyway.

Frankly the major limitation on the build is ceilings. You've got to have that caster friend of yours standing by to blast a hole in the roof with Shatter or something. But I guess one nice thing about the build is that, piledrivers aside, it provides a REALLY powerful ability to control the enemy's position. If they're in a tavern or castle or anything else you can always use some of your absurd movement capabilities to drag them out a door or window someplace and THEN serve them up the piledriver. Really it's only in really labyrinthine caves where there won't be some sort of open-sky access reasonably close by. But even in that sort of scenario, you are going to be the absolute master of getting that other guy into any and all environmental hazards. Lava pit 300 feet away? Guess whose face is going to be in it. Is that a portal to Hell you're opening 150 feet over there? Well goodness, I hope you don't mind if I just toss you into it. That 200 foot long gauntlet of traps that immediately preceded your evil sanctum? Well guess who is about to get dragged over every single poisoned spike and blade over the course of 6 seconds. Oh, and this druid friend of mine has a spell called "Spike Growth" he would like to tell you about.

Damon_Tor
2020-12-15, 09:19 PM
Spike Growth works far better and more effectively as a movement to damage converter allowing you to shred targets with only one attack invested, freeing you to shred up additional targets with your other attacks.

Sure, but that's not nearly as much fun as repeatedly taking them 20 stories up, throwing them to the ground, then landing on them with a flying elbow or a drop kick or something, then picking them up and doing it over and over again. The speed at which it occurs is the most impressive part, we manage to do this 6 times in 6 seconds, so in one second we carry him 200 feet in the air, throw him 200 back feet to the ground and dive bomb after him. Imagine the sound of him slamming at that velocity into the cobblestones over and over again. It's like something out of Dragonball Z.

And frankly the BEST way to convert movement to damage is to slam their face repeatedly into a really big boat. But that's not what I set out to do here.

MaxWilson
2020-12-15, 09:37 PM
Hmmm. I wonder if level 9 monks can do a similar trick to achieve a grappled, prone opponent in only one attack instead of two.

JediMaster
2020-12-15, 09:41 PM
Sure, but that's not nearly as much fun as repeatedly taking them 20 stories up, throwing them to the ground, then landing on them with a flying elbow or a drop kick or something, then picking them up and doing it over and over again. The speed at which it occurs is the most impressive part, we manage to do this 6 times in 6 seconds, so in one second we carry him 200 feet in the air, throw him 200 back feet to the ground and dive bomb after him. Imagine the sound of him slamming at that velocity into the cobblestones over and over again. It's like something out of Dragonball Z.

And frankly the BEST way to convert movement to damage is to slam their face repeatedly into a really big boat. But that's not what I set out to do here.

Slamming is ineffective unless I am misunderstanding you.

Spike Growth is by far the best here. You don't need to rage. You don't damage yourself. It frees up your concentration channel. And it allows you to answer the ubiquitous Feather Fall which you can't answer because you are raging.

Aramul
2020-12-15, 09:53 PM
So for those of us keeping track, our opponent took 26.5d6, or about 92.75, damage this turn. We took 8.25d6, or about 28.875, damage. Well that's pretty good, but nothing exceptional, right? So where am I going with this?

In your first example, the opponent takes 20d6, 10d6, 13d6, and 6.5d6 for a total of 49.5d6, about 173.25 damage.

JackPhoenix
2020-12-15, 11:09 PM
And then you realize ceilings exist. Less of a problem due to using flight speed instead of actual jumping, but still totally ruining the image.

kingcheesepants
2020-12-15, 11:38 PM
It's definitely an amusing image and will work against a large majority of creatures. But if you've got tier 4 caster friends what you really want for them to cast for this combo is prismatic wall. No need to actually land on the guy and take the falling damage, just grab him fly him through the wall and then drop him through onto the ground and repeat, this also fixes the problem of ceilings since you don't need to actually bring them up that high to get the kind of damage you'd need to kill anything if they're falling through a prismatic wall repeatedly.

clash
2020-12-16, 07:53 AM
I mean the big problem is the setup time for this. You assume you start with longstrider, rage, and blade song up. That's at least two turns in combat preparing this combo. By the third turn in combat your just playing cleanup anyways and most of the damage will go wasted.

KorvinStarmast
2020-12-16, 08:07 AM
So who is this masked Jedi and how does he do what he do?

Our Jedi Luchador is a Fighter/Barbarian/Wizard. Specifically:
Fighter (Psi Warrior) 12
Barbarian (Elk/Bear Totem) 6
Wizard (Bladesinger) 2
Race: Tabaxi
ASI: Mobile, Athlete (+1 Str), Skill Expertise (Athletics, +1 Str), +2 Str, +2 Con
Seems that your concept comes on line too late. This proposed build would be more attractive if you map out how it grows from level 1 to level 20. Identify when specific features that make this build work come on line during play. (I do like the feat selection).
A CR 20 creature, like a Pit Fiend, is not impressed. First you need to make your DC 21 Saving throw against being frightened.
Fear Aura. Any creature hostile to the pit fiend that starts its turn within 20 feet of the pit fiend must make a DC 21 Wisdom saving throw, unless the pit fiend is incapacitated. On a failed save, the creature is frightened until the start of its next turn. Second, you have to avoid the DC 21 Hold Monster, which works on your PC as well. You ain't wrestling nobody if you stand there, paralyzed.

Point is: trying to wrestle with CR 20+ monsters is a good way to encounter tactical difficulty. Might want to have an ally cast Enlarge on you to at least give you a shot at huge creatures.

On the other hand: go for it ... but it looks to me like this 'white room' concept works nicely against monster that are much lower level than the PC. That puts in in the category of:
My level 9 wizards destroys bandits!

Right. Of course you do.

MaxWilson
2020-12-16, 08:18 AM
I mean the big problem is the setup time for this. You assume you start with longstrider, rage, and blade song up. That's at least two turns in combat preparing this combo. By the third turn in combat your just playing cleanup anyways and most of the damage will go wasted.

Most of that is optional. Without Rage and Bladesong you lose some damage, but the key factor is intact: use grappling + Tabaxi + Psi Knight to turn high movement into absurdly high movement into damage.

Even on round one, if you've got Longstrider up, your speed is 60', which becomes fly 240' after factoring in Tabaxi and the Psi flying thing, which becomes fly 480' on an Action Surge: Dash. So, even on round one you can grapple someone, fly them 40' over to the nearest window, and fly them up 200' for 20d6 falling damage + knock prone. Or if you have a druid buddy who just put Spike Growth up, you can deal roughly 96d4 (240) HP of magical piercing damage. If you want to save your Action Surge for later it's 12d6 or 48d4 (120) instead.

This has always been possible except that Psi Knight just added a new x2 modifier to the stack so everything is almost twice as damaging now.

Vegan Squirrel
2020-12-16, 11:02 AM
This is very amusing, and surprisingly viable. Xanathar's suggests you can fall up to 500 ft. in a given round; so as a DM I'd probably limit you and your target to 500 ft. of falling. Still, that completely allows your first option, and with haste you could still do 75d6 damage without using Action Surge (or using Action Surge only if you miss on a couple grapples).

And since the 500 ft. rule is an optional rule, I'm sure many DMs would allow infinite falling to work.

MaxWilson
2020-12-16, 11:27 AM
This is very amusing, and surprisingly viable. Xanathar's suggests you can fall up to 500 ft. in a given round; so as a DM I'd probably limit you and your target to 500 ft. of falling. Still, that completely allows your first option, and with haste you could still do 75d6 damage without using Action Surge (or using Action Surge only if you miss on a couple grapples).

And since the 500 ft. rule is an optional rule, I'm sure many DMs would allow infinite falling to work.

There's a good chunk of enemies it just doesn't work on (due to immunity to grappled or having hover or being too big) but still, from a tactical perspective what this lets you do is set up unexpected checkmate conditions at low cost: a Death Knight may not realize that he needs to bail out of combat as soon as the druid casts a Spike Growth 20' away from him because he's one turn away from 80d4 (200) HP of magical piercing damage when you Action Surge a grapple + Dash.

If you can cheaply checkmate say 40-60% of the most terrifying monsters in the game, it saves resources for the other 40-60% and simplifies scenarios involving a mix. E.g. you may not be able to take out Sul Khatesh with falling or Spike Growth, but you can take out Rak Tulkhesh with a little bit of effort, which means that adventures involving Sul Khatesh and Rak Tulkhesh working together against you are now only moderately terrifying instead of pants-wettingly scary.

And the things that make a monster immune or mostly-immune-barring-countermeasures-like-Enlarge to piledriving or Spike-dragging are mostly orthogonal to qualities like Legendary Resistance that monsters rely on for immunity to other things (like Wish (Planar Binding)).

It's definitely an interesting capability to have, especially in a mostly-spellcaster party which would otherwise struggle with Legendary Resistance monsters.