Rogue or Fighter (Tempest Cleric multiclass)

[FuhQuit]

Hi there,

I'm making a new character, I've decided on Yuan-ti with the new flexible racial stat bonus rule and I'll be starting at level 5. I want to go Tempest Cleric, thats not really up for discussion but I'm having a harder time picking between starting 3 levels of Rogue and going Arcane Trickster or 3 levels of Fighter and going Eldritch Knight. The reason I'd be going 3 levels of either of these classes is for Booming Blade, Shield and Absorb Elements.

I plan on being DEX based and starting with; 8 STR, 16 DEX, 15/14 CON (depends on Rogue or Fighter), 10 INT, 16 WIS, 8 CHA. This would put my AC to 17 in Half Plate and would limit me to a Rapier for optimal damage using Booming Blade.

3 levels of Rogue would give:

Proficiency in DEX and INT saving throws
Proficiency: 2 skills Expertise: 2 skills
Sneak Attack: 2d6
Cunning Action: Bonus action Dash, Disengage or Hide
Cantrips: Mage Hand, +2
Spells Known: 3
Mage Hand Legerdemain (invisible Mage Hand)
3 Lvl = 1 Multiclass Spellcaster Lvl


The great part about Rogue is the expertise and the Sneak Attack 2d6. I think I'd have expertise in Perception but unsure about the other skill. With this pick, my 1st ASI would be Resilient and get proficiency in CON saving throws.

Now 3 levels of Fighter would give:

Proficiency in STR and CON saving throws
Fighting Style: +1 AC or +2 DMG Rolls (Defence or Duelling. Any other ideas?)
Second Wind: 1d10 + fighter Lvl heal
Action Surge: +1 additional action
Cantrips: 2
Spells Known: 3
Weapon Bond (Can't be disarmed + summon to hand)
3 Lvl = 1 Multiclass Spellcaster Lvl


The best part is that Fighter already has proficiency in CON saves so I could do something else with my ASI and get a different feat like Warcaster (boost AC with a shield), Tough or just boost a stat. Action Surge helps with action economy, Second Wind can be a nice heal for a bonus action and a fighting style always helps. I don't think I'd be missing out on much by not having the proficiency in DEX saves because I'll have advantage on all Magical saving throws from Yuan-ti's Magic Resistance.

I'm really at a loss here, seems like Rogue has more damage, stats and more uses outside combat while Fighter has more options in combat and is better for action economy. Any insight or new ideas would be super awesome or help because I'm swapping between the two and can't make a final decision.

EDIT: Just realised that Arcane Trickster get 3 1st level spells but 2 must be Enchantment and Illusions spells so I'd miss out on Absorb Elements and Find Familiar which is what I wanted. Kinda just answered the debate :) I think ill be going Fighter

[Bobthewizard]

I'd probably lean fighter, but 3 levels is a lot to give up on a cleric in Tier 2.

I'd recommend staying cleric and taking the aberrant dragon mark feat from Eberron (if it is allowed) for booming blade and a short rest shield. Magic initiate would work but shield is only once per long rest. Some DMs allow you to use your spell slots for additional casting but RAW you can't.

You lose absorb elements but you're 3 levels higher on your spells known and 2 on your spell slots.

[Sjappo]

Why not start (Storm) Sorcerer? Nets you the CON save you want, BB, Shield and AE, 3 other cantrips and casting as a 5th level caster. All for the measly price of 2 HP and a 13 cha. Drop WIS to 14 and CON to 14 and can get there I think.

Edit: plus you get your ASI's 2 levels earlier.

[da newt]

A 3 lvl dip into fighter or rogue will delay your first ASI to lvl 7 and your first 3rd lvl spell known to lvl 8 and keeps your spell slots low. In my opinion, that's too much of a cost for the benefit.

Sjappo's suggestion of a 1 lvl dip in Sorcerer is much more efficient.

[FuhQuit]

A 3 lvl dip into fighter or rogue will delay your first ASI to lvl 7 and your first 3rd lvl spell known to lvl 8 and keeps your spell slots low. In my opinion, that's too much of a cost for the benefit.

Sjappo's suggestion of a 1 lvl dip in Sorcerer is much more efficient.

This character will be starting at level 5 because Ill be retiring my old character to play this one. It kind of makes the delay more bareable because I only have to play through level 5 and 6 before my first ASI.

[RogueJK]

Definitely go for 1 level of Sorcerer. Storm Sorcerer is thematically appropriate for a Tempest Cleric, but gives you a less useful ability compared to Shadow, Divine Soul, or Clockwork Soul. Either of those three Sorcerer subclasses would be a much more optimal 1 level dip, not only getting you the spells you want, but also some useful 1st level subclass abilities.

[CTurbo]

I'm going to also agree that 1 level of Sorcerer is much better here. Divine Soul, Shadow, or even Draconic.

3 levels is far too much to give up for a full caster. A single level of Sorcerer won't even mess up your slots.

[Oramac]

Given the choices you laid out, I'd lean towards Fighter.

That being said, I agree with others that Sorcerer is a much better option all around. I would highly recommend my Tempest Sorcerer (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?493427-Tempest-Sorcerer-Tank) build for this reason. I've played it up to ~11th level, and can say firsthand that it is one of the most fun characters I've ever played.

[Sjappo]

I'm a bit biased as wel. I'm playing a Hill dwarf Storm Sorcerer 1, Tempest Cleric 9 in SKT atm. Took Shield and Absorb Elements and decided to dump dex and str in favour of wis and cha and fight with cantrips.

Ög is absolutely unkillable. AC 20 with full plate and shield. Shield spell raises this to 25. With upcast aid Ög has approximately 100 HP. If anything I have leaned to much on tankiness.

Some observations:
- I have not cast Absorb Elements at all. I'm thinking about retraining it.
- I took War Caster but I hardly have to roll concentration checks at all. And the advantage is hardly needed. Haven't cast an spell as O.A. either. It is needed for material components but if you can have the DM hand wave that (or play weaponless like Ög) it is really not that relevant a feat.
- With SG up at round 1, Spirit Weapon going up at lvl 2 and some damaging cantrips (Shocking Grasp!) Ög does quite decently in the damage department. While fine thematically, BB is hardly needed.

[RogueJK]

- I have not cast Absorb Elements at all. I'm thinking about retraining it.

This is one of those "keep it in your back pocket because you never know when you'll need it" kind of things.

But yes, it is DM-dependent. If your DM only ever throws enemies wielding weapons at you, it won't see much use. However, if you face off against that Fireball-chucking wizard, or a Dragon with breath weapon, or any of the other elemental damage enemies, or you trigger that wicked Icy Blast trap in the hidden temple, you'll be very thankful that you can pull it out of your bag of tricks.


- With SG up at round 1, Spirit Weapon going up at lvl 2 and some damaging cantrips (Shocking Grasp!) Ög does quite decently in the damage department. While fine thematically, BB is hardly needed.

You can even skip the few points of damage from the cantrip, and just Dodge with your Action instead. Heavy Armor+Shield Cleric using the Dodge Action is ridiculously hard to hit for most enemies (even more so with the Shield spell on tap), and you'll still be contributing plenty of damage with passive Spirit Guardians + Bonus Action Spiritual Weapon attack. This Dodge+SG+SW combo is especially handy from Levels 5-8ish, when your cantrips are only doing single digit damage since Blessed Strikes/Potent Spellcasting hasn't come online yet to add your WISMOD to cantrip damage, but remains potentially useful even at higher levels (provided you don't have something else to be Concentrating on besides SG).

Help can also be potentially useful instead of minor cantrip damage, especially if it allows a party Rogue to land a Sneak Attack that they wouldn't otherwise get, for example.

[Sjappo]

This is one of those "keep it in your back pocket because you never know when you'll need it" kind of things.

But yes, it is DM-dependent. If your DM only ever throws enemies wielding weapons at you, it won't see much use. However, if you face off against that Fireball-chucking wizard, or a Dragon with breath weapon, or any of the other elemental damage enemies, or you trigger that wicked Icy Blast trap in the hidden temple, you'll be very thankful that you can pull it out of your bag of tricks.
True, But I feel this spell is not pulling it's weight. Ög has exactly 2 lvl 1 Sorc spells. They need to count. Don't know about my GM not using energy damage, but it looks like SKT does not have much casters in it. Further, Ög hardly ever loses HP, even ending a day with HP from aid left. He can take the hit, even when failing dex save spectacularly


You can even skip the few points of damage from the cantrip, and just Dodge with your Action instead. Heavy Armor+Shield Cleric using the Dodge Action is ridiculously hard to hit for most enemies (even more so with the Shield spell), and you'll still be contributing plenty of damage with passive Spirit Guardians + Bonus Action Spiritual Weapon attack. This is especially handy from Levels 5-8ish, when your cantrips are only doing single digit damage and Blessed Strikes/Potent Spellcasting hasn't come online yet to add your WISMOD to cantrip damage.

Help can also be potentially useful instead of minor cantrip damage, especially if it allows a party Rogue to land a Sneak Attack that they wouldn't otherwise get, for example.
I found dodging to be dull. With shield and AC 20 you don't exactly need it. From lvl 5 Toll the Dead does 2d12 damage, which is respectable. Unfortunately Tempest gets Divine Strike which doesn't add to cantrips.

But, for the OP, a Sorcerer 1, Tempest Cleric X with heavy armor, shield and Shield is extremely durable, doesn't lose spell slots and is only 1/2 spell level behind full Cleric. I I found I was depending on spells more and more as Ög rose in levels ad the risk of running out of spells diminished. As early as lvl 6 you can have 2 spells up and running for 5 combat encounters per day. Which is often times more than enough. It leaves enough room for a spell during a non-combat encounter or a well placed maxed Shatter to thin the herds.

[Oramac]

True, But I feel this spell is not pulling it's weight. Ög has exactly 2 lvl 1 Sorc spells. They need to count. Don't know about my GM not using energy damage, but it looks like SKT does not have much casters in it. Further, Ög hardly ever loses HP, even ending a day with HP from aid left. He can take the hit, even when failing dex save spectacularly

I ran SKT in its entirety, and can confirm. Unless the DM changes things (as I did), there are very few spellcasters in the adventure.

Yea, you definitely need your spell selections to pull their weight. If you're dipping Tempest Cleric for Destructive Wrath, I'd recommend Chromatic Orb. It scales fairly well, and is especially potent when combined with DW. Even better, if you can get within 5 feet of the target of a Hold Person spell, advantage and disadvantage negate each other, and a hit is an auto crit. You can really do some serious damage if you're willing to take that risk.

[RogueJK]

Unfortunately Tempest gets Divine Strike which doesn't add to cantrips.

Under the new Tasha's rules, it can be swapped for Blessed Strikes, which lets you add 1d8 radiant damage to either a weapon hit or a cantrip hit, once per turn. (Effectively allowing you to apply Divine Strike to cantrips, albeit with Radiant damage instead of the Tempest's usual Thunder damage.)



I found dodging to be dull.

True. A lot of "optimal" plays in 5E are dull/repetitive.

Warlock: "I cast Agonizing Eldritch Blast on the Hexed enemy" (every turn)
Champion Fighter: "I Attack, with Great Weapon Master" (every turn)
Shepherd Druid: "I summon some minions into my Bear Spirit aura and then plink with a Cantrip" (every turn)
Cleric: "I cast SG+SW and then Dodge/Cantrip" (every turn)
Bear Barbarian: "I Rage and then Reckless Attack" (every turn)
Ranged Rogue: "I Bonus Action Hide/Aim and then Sneak Attack" (every turn)

Options and variety are good, even if it's not the 100% most "optimal" choice every turn.