Hexblade or Valor Bard for this party?

[Willie the Duck]

Here is the scenario –
One of my gaming groups has started over after I lost steam DMing for them as well as my normally-DMing-for group. Another participant is taking over to run an evil campaign. We’re all going to be new (start at level 2) initiates of the Cult of the Dragon in FR. The group consists of:
A vuman Twilight Cleric (str-based 2-weapon fighting)
A gnome Wizard (Diviner? Abjurer? Can’t remember)
A vuman rogue (magic initiate for wizard combat cantrips and magic missile 1/day)
Myself.

Suffice to say this is not an optimization-focused group, and when asked what I might consider playing, the advice is consistently ‘play what you want.’ Of course, I’m just happy to get to play for once. The two things that spring to mind are bard and warlock. The group is a little light on frontline combat, so if I wanted to do one of these classes, it’d likely be the combat-upgrade subclass (valor bard or hexblade patron pact of blade). I am considering Fey and/or Shadow Touched to flesh out spells known and castings per day (particularly for the warlock, since the 2 casting max for much of the game is a real downer). Each class has a negative – The valor bard would pretty much need to get gauntlets of ogre power to use str-based weapons (given the cleric’s specialization, I figure I’ll be the recipient of any flaming greatswords or whatnot we might acquire), and I don’t trust my co-players to actually use any inspiration dice I hand out (two of them will forget and the rogue’s player cannot spend expendable resources he might need later to the point where he wastes them); the hexblade is the only SR-recharging class present and has less skill support for being the party face (everyone else has cha as 10 or 8). Likewise, each has spells that I really wish I could get on the other (bard has backup heals and things like hypnotic pattern, warlock has more utility spells like spiderclimb and fly)

Thoughts? Questions? Advice?

Thanks in advance!

[Mobius Twist]

Twilight clerics have a suite of abilities that support a big crowd of friends around them. Given that the rest of the team are squishies, you'll probably want to have as much MEAT interposed between them and active harm as possible. Hexblade will eventually give you a specter to help with flanking and more bodies to benefit from the cleric's auras.

As far as lack of a face, you can always ask for a casting of Enhance Ability from the cleric when going in for a negotiation.

[KorvinStarmast]

Another participant is taking over to run an evil campaign. We’re all going to be new (start at level 2) initiates of the Cult of the Dragon in FR. The group consists of:
A vuman Twilight Cleric (str-based 2-weapon fighting)
A gnome Wizard (Diviner? Abjurer? Can’t remember)
A vuman rogue (magic initiate for wizard combat cantrips and magic missile 1/day)
Myself.


I don’t trust my co-players to actually use any inspiration dice I hand out My co players are still having trouble differentiating between Bardic Insp and DM supplied Inspiration. I wish it had been called Bardic Encouragement.

So here's the deal: train your party members. Nag them. Remind them. That boost to AC can save their squishy lives. Also, bards being slightly overbearing isn't beyond the archetypes norms. :smallbiggrin:

Secondly: as squishy as they are, I suspect that your song of rest may become a much enjoyed feature.

I suggest Valor. Your party will need to play carefully for the first level; you are as squishy as the wizard. If this campaign goes for a while, Magical Secrets at 10 will be a fine benefit.

Party face is you! :smallsmile: I'd also suggest a Criminal Background so that you can occasionally provide Help to the rogue (advantage!) on really hard locks/traps, since you'll have thieves tool proficiency. Discuss with DM ahead of time.

Here is an "at play" anecdote for you.
We just got to level 4 in a wide open world campaign. Our Hexblade is squishy, still. During one fight he burned an action to cast mirror image; turned out to be a brilliant idea in terms of survival, but the fight didn't get any shorter. (My phantasmal force lasted 5 rounds). We also are not optimized (war cleric with a 14 Wis ... dex paladin with a 8 Str). Without armor of agythys, I think he'd have run me out of healing words more often than he did ...

Spells wise, Valor Bard will do fine. if you vHuman, I'd suggest Medium Armor Master feat and go all in on Dex at chargen: 16. 16 Cha.

But, just because you told us it was an evil campaign: Hexblade seems to fit, thematically.

I can't remember of shadow blade spell (second level) is available to bards: oh, rats, Sorcs, Wizards, Locks. Might be a level 10 pick for magical secrets. Nice little spell if you can keep your concentration up.

[Keravath]

I would actually consider a paladin/hexblade multiclass to use charisma as your attack stat to be a good complement to this party.

The wizard covers arcane spellcasting, the cleric covers divine spellcasting, healing and other options. A paladin would provide some backup healing and by the time you reach 6th level you would have the paladin aura to help everyone's saving throws. 1 hexblade/6 paladin to start then take it in whichever direction you like. Use your ASI to boost CHA to 18. Start with either 15 str for heavy armor or 14 dex for medium. Use a sword and shield approach since 2 handed weapons won't work with charisma until you are a level 3 blade pact warlock. The character will also have the shield spell from warlock so they should be quite resilient as a front line fighter.

Hexblade on the other hand just doesn't have enough spell slots so they tend to have to use darkness+devils sight to be more resilient when fighting - get advantage on attacks and disadvantage to be attacked. However not everyone likes the tactic and it may not work that well with this party - so I would probably skip that approach if playing a hexblade in this group.

Other than that ... I would probably lean toward bard but a bard is a full caster just as much as the cleric and wizard despite having two attacks at level 6.

[KorvinStarmast]

Other than that ... I would probably lean toward bard but a bard is a full caster just as much as the cleric and wizard despite having two attacks at level 6.
It took our group a while to figure this out, but our sword bard's inspiration is like a mini, on call, shield spell. For any party member who just got hit. Granted, the die varies, but at level 7 or 8 when CR monsters hit by just a bit, it's nice to negate it.

[RogueJK]

1 hexblade/6 paladin to start then take it in whichever direction you like.

My thoughts exactly.

Your party needs a melee frontliner more than it needs another squishy caster. This lets you get a little taste of Warlock, and be the Party Face, while also being the best melee tank in the group. (Try as he might, the Twilight Cleric won't be able to keep up much past Tier 1... All single-classed Clerics are spellcasters much more than they are weapon-based attackers.)

And the cool thing about Hexblade dip is that it lets you focus on solely on boosting your CHA, so you can really take advantage of some of the more spell/ability DC oriented Paladin Oaths. These include Oaths like Conquest, Redemption, and Ancients, which are usually a bit trickier to pull off for single-classed Paladins without good stat rolls, as they're having to focus on STR and therefore only end up with like a 16 in CHA, resulting in them having only middling spell/ability DCs.

[Eldariel]

My thoughts exactly.

Your party needs a melee frontliner more than it needs another squishy caster. This lets you get a little taste of Warlock, and be the Party Face, while also being the best melee tank in the group. (Try as he might, the Twilight Cleric won't be able to keep up much past Tier 1... All single-classed Clerics are spellcasters much more than they are weapon-based attackers.)

Wait, how does that prevent Clerics from being frontliners? You don't need to use weapons to fight in the front; on the contrary, the fact that Clerics can just fight with a Concentration spell and maybe their Bonus Action (Spirit Guardians + Spiritual Weapon) frees up their action past round 1 for e.g. Dodging which goes a long way towards making them a supereffective tank (not to mention they have good armor and shields and spells that make people harder to attack (Sanctuary, Protection from Good and Evil, Death Ward, etc.)). If anything, I'd argue a Cleric is a better frontliner than Pally precisely because Pally is so heavily inclined to attack to actually be relevant.

Same goes for Warlock and Valor Bard. Both are more than good enough frontliners. Sure, you might have d8 instead of d10; drop in the ocean, and if you ever cast like Armor of Agathys or whatever or avoid a single attack with a spell, that difference is gone too (indeed, to the other direction). Pally isn't bad either, but why would you say it's better than either of the options given in the OP?

[Willie the Duck]

I would actually consider a paladin/hexblade multiclass to use charisma as your attack stat to be a good complement to this party.
The wizard covers arcane spellcasting, the cleric covers divine spellcasting, healing and other options. A paladin would provide some backup healing and by the time you reach 6th level you would have the paladin aura to help everyone's saving throws. 1 hexblade/6 paladin to start then take it in whichever direction you like.
As a general rule, we don't do that--no Hexblade1/Paladin X-1, no Cleric1/Wizard X-1, no coffeelocks, no sorcadins, nuclear wizards, and so on. 5e defaults to easy enough, we don't feel that this is strictly necessary. If I want to go paladin (and honestly I'd probably go fighter instead), that certainly is another approach. Criminal background Samurai (ronin) might fit the party theme well.

Hexblade on the other hand just doesn't have enough spell slots so they tend to have to use darkness+devils sight to be more resilient when fighting - get advantage on attacks and disadvantage to be attacked. However not everyone likes the tactic and it may not work that well with this party - so I would probably skip that approach if playing a hexblade in this group.
I’d probably skip it. It both eats up your spells and invocations (I’m thinking Misty Visions and Eldritch Mind to start, than the weapon-fighting boosters).

Other than that ... I would probably lean toward bard but a bard is a full caster just as much as the cleric and wizard despite having two attacks at level 6.
Valor/swords bards, bladesinger wizard, and full (non-MC) hexblade all are pretty good implementations of the gish, leaning towards the ‘casting’ side a little harder than the ‘fighting.’ Overall I like the bard, my only qualms are 1)my teammates, and 2) that with array stats it is so hard to make a str/dex switch-hitter (and have any room left over for Con and Cha).


Spells wise, Valor Bard will do fine. if you vHuman, I'd suggest Medium Armor Master feat and go all in on Dex at chargen: 16. 16 Cha.
But, just because you told us it was an evil campaign: Hexblade seems to fit, thematically.
I can't remember of shadow blade spell (second level) is available to bards: oh, rats, Sorcs, Wizards, Locks. Might be a level 10 pick for magical secrets. Nice little spell if you can keep your concentration up.
It does thematically fit. I mean, bards can also be jerks and criminals (particularly face characters like con-men or fences). Shadow Blade is nice, and the difference between coming on at L3 and L10 is one of the mechanical reasons hexblade looks interesting. Particularly given how often a party of twilight-domain enhanced vision criminals and cultists might be in dim light.


Same goes for Warlock and Valor Bard. Both are more than good enough frontliners. Sure, you might have d8 instead of d10; drop in the ocean, and if you ever cast like Armor of Agathys or whatever or avoid a single attack with a spell, that difference is gone too (indeed, to the other direction). Pally isn't bad either, but why would you say it's better than either of the options given in the OP?
Despite evil paladins being a thing in 5e (well, they had them in most other editions too, but under some other mechanic – blackguard, antipaladin, etc.), but I agree it doesn’t seem like a natural fit. Valor bard and hexblade are ‘frontline-adject’ they can do the toe-to-toe thing, but it takes a lot of thinking to make them be more than just on-par with (ex.) the barbarian who isn’t raging or the like.

Thanks for all the replies! I’m still undecided, but I feel I have more information and insights to which I can bring to the decision (meaning I will probably be happier with my final decision).

[KorvinStarmast]

Despite evil paladins being a thing in 5e (well, they had them in most other editions too, but under some other mechanic – blackguard, antipaladin, etc.), but I agree it doesn’t seem like a natural fit. A paladin, Oath of Vengeance, can "break bad" rather easily due to the overpowering motive of revenge and punishment. Easy to take it too far without going all Oathbreaker.

Backstory-wise, he's got a chip on his shoulder due to being screwed over by {X organization} or {Y powerful noble} in the game world, so he throws in his lot with this shady group to get pay back. Each smite comes with it a "take that , mofo" or "a message from {friend/relative/cause/town/nation who got screwed over} to you!"

Or something like that. Goes along with an old Chinese adage that I heard years back, which I now paraphrase into D&Dese: "When you embark on the path of vengeance, first dig two graves."

Did you already discard that idea?


Attributed to Confucius (https://quoteinvestigator.com/2019/07/07/two-graves/). Seek revenge and you should dig two graves, one for yourself.

[Willie the Duck]

A paladin, Oath of Vengeance, can "break bad" rather easily due to the overpowering motive of revenge and punishment. Easy to take it too far without going all Oathbreaker.

Backstory-wise, he's got a chip on his shoulder due to being screwed over by {X organization} or {Y powerful noble} in the game world, so he throws in his lot with this shady group to get pay back. Each smite comes with it a "take that , mofo" or "a message from {friend/relative/cause/town/nation who got screwed over} to you!"

Or something like that. Goes along with an old Chinese adage that I heard years back: "When you embark on the path of vengeance, first dig two graves."

Did you already discard that idea?

Oh, sure. Batman down the wrong road/Punisher/Rorschach, are all good ways to make evil vengeance paladins. It's not a bad concept. However it isn't a slick criminal faceman, which is the base concept I have in my head. This is also not the group I'd use to tell that story (I'm DMing that group right now).

[KorvinStarmast]

Oh, sure. Batman down the wrong road/Punisher/Rorschach, are all good ways to make evil vengeance paladins. It's not a bad concept. However it isn't a slick criminal faceman, which is the base concept I have in my head. This is also not the group I'd use to tell that story (I'm DMing that group right now). Aaah, got it, not slick enough.
I still recomend Valor Bard, though I can see the appeal of Hexblade. Heck, I'd recommend Glamour or Whisperer Bard if you didn't need to be less squishy.

[Willie the Duck]

Aaah, got it, not slick enough.
I still recomend Valor Bard, though I can see the appeal of Hexblade. Heck, I'd recommend Glamour or Whisperer Bard if you didn't need to be less squishy.

Oh, absolutely. A Whisper or Eloquence bard with Moderately armored and maybe Magic Initiate (Booming Blade, Eldritch Blast) would be a fun version of the same character, but for a slightly different situation.

[Eldariel]

Oh, absolutely. A Whisper or Eloquence bard with Moderately armored and maybe Magic Initiate (Booming Blade, Eldritch Blast) would be a fun version of the same character, but for a slightly different situation.

Valor Bard is certainly a good one, though Swords Bard is also pretty good. Lacking Shield Proficiency hurts (and Bard not knowing the Shield-spell), but they can get a pretty massive personal AC buff with one of their maneuvers, and the other two are pretty decent too. The big issue with Hexblade comparatively is the 2 spells/SR until Tier 3. That's just painful; it means that while they have all these cool spells, they aren't actually available for casting most of the time.

[Willie the Duck]

Not sure if anyone was champing at the bit to hear how things turned out, but I like to wrap things up for resolution purposes.

When I got to the play group, the gnome Wizard stated that they were making their character as one who didn't know that they were going to become an adventurer, knowing only Witchbolt* as a combat-specific spell they picked up somewhere. Likewise, the player who was going to play a rogue with Magic Initiate (Firebolt, Toll the Dead, Magic Missile) was convinced by the DM to 'play what you really want to play' and thus switched to another wizard -- who (based on their regular pattern) will never cast anything other than Firebolt, Toll the Dead, Magic Missile, Shield, Mage Armor, Mirror Image, Fly, Fireball and Misty Step (to escape).
*nice dedication to RP, I must say

Looking at this situation, I said, "screw it, Twilight Cleric and I will carry the load, and be significantly more optimized, but everyone will be happy," and went with variant Human(Fey Touched: Gift of Alacrity, Misty Step) Hexblade1/Bard1 (S10 D14 C14 I8 W12 Ch17) , with the idea of either doing Sundracon's Swords Bard idea (probably picking Shadow Touched: Disguise Self, Invisibility at L5 just to free up spells known and get some extra castings/day), or picking up Telekinetic at L5 on a Lore or Eloquence bard, and get my damage from Booming Blade/shove 5' back (less certain than two Hex and Swordsbard-inspiration boosted attacks, but it would open up the Lore or Eloquence benefits). Hexblade and Swordsbard really do complement each other thematically, so that would make me less ashamed of the hex dip, so that's likely my path.

[mistajames]

A valor bard is basically a base bard who can use a longbow instead of a cantrip in T1 and T2 and use medium armor. Their unique bardic inspiration option is hardly an improvement on the base bard. They get Extra Attack, but have no other class abilities or buff spells to effectively improve their damage output. That said, the Bard base class is quite strong, and bonus proficiencies are quite good in general.

The Hexblade has all the tools that they need to be an effective damage dealer. They can be run as a frontliner, as a ranged character with a bow, or as a typical EB-ing warlock.

Given that you already have a Cleric and a Wizard to CC, and a Rogue to skillmonkey, a Warlock would probably be the better choice.