Tasha's Summon Spells

[nickl_2000]

What do people think of these new Summon Spells from Tasha's? I am not a huge fans of minionmancy, since I feel it bogs down combat, but can get into the idea of summoning only one at a time.

Has anyone used them? How did it work for you?

[MrStabby]

Not being such a fan of minionmancy either I have not given them a huge amount of attention. My (very superficial) thoughts are:

They seem to scale plausibly offensively. Hit bonus, number of attacks etc. Seem to keep relevant as you upcast it. Not like... outstandingly, but ok enough.

Spells seem about the right level of complexity and have a strong enough flavour.

My best guess is that they are about the right power level, but it isnt something I have looked at with much rigor.

My concern is that "right power" is probably not enough in a world of animated objects and conjured animals. Also, the classes that get these tend not to be the classes most squeezed for spells known... I guess they might support a divine soul well?

[stoutstien]

No real table play with the new spells but I have a session tonight with a minion wizard so we will see.

[Bobthewizard]

I really like Summon Shadowspawn. It's a new flavor and the despair options 5' weight of sorrow that decreases speed by 20' is nice at a more tactical table.

[Protolisk]

I have a campaign in tier 3 right now, with a cleric that uses Celestial Spirit. In this same campaign, there was also a necromancer. I previously ran a Curse of Strahd campaign that was a Shepherd Druid.

Animate Dead necromancer had a lot more story effects by necessity, and also was really limiting on spell slot usage. Not super fun to arbitrate on a day by day sequence. The Shepherd Druid was fun, but really bogged down the game. Summoning 8 blink dogs was a nightmare for damage, incoming and outgoing, as you'd need 8 attack rolls or 8 saves against a fireball or some such spell. It's a nightmare.

Celestial Spirit is 1 summon. There is still some choice (Do I need range, or defense?), but not "choose a creature in the Monster Manual" level of choice. Just enough for some tactics. With 1 creature, much less need to track health and saves, as by itself it does maybe 3 attacks and only needs to roll 1 save against AoE spells. It's healthy that it lasts and isn't a pushover like the swarms of skeletons or bears.

I much prefer this summoning spell over previous.

[Luccan]

Nice to be able to summon creatures for combat as a Conjurer Wizard before 7th level and to have a Necromancy undead minion spell that doesn't have all the logistical considerations of Animate Dead (and it can be ghost-like). Haven't given it much of a look or a thought beyond that

[dreast]

The fact that tricksy fey summon works beautifully with a ranger’s blind fighting fighting style (while being far more party-friendly than fog cloud) makes me very excited to play my ranger/cleric in the upcoming campaign (he ends up 10/10 for 8th level spell slot). (My biggest temptation will be not to shout “Darkness!” Hades-style every time my boomerang mouse-knight hops back behind me and makes my space a black void.)

They scale excellently, which is always good for multiclassers, and the fact that rangers get a choice selection helps that class out too (I love what Tasha’s had done for rangers in general).

They’re also far less table-bogging than the old conjure spells, and give the control to the player (just because you say two fey doesn’t mean the DM won’t give you two blink dogs). I’m a huge fan in general.

[MaxWilson]

The fact that tricksy fey summon works beautifully with a ranger’s blind fighting fighting style (while being far more party-friendly than fog cloud) makes me very excited to play my ranger/cleric in the upcoming campaign (he ends up 10/10 for 8th level spell slot). (My biggest temptation will be not to shout “Darkness!” Hades-style every time my boomerang mouse-knight hops back behind me and makes my space a black void.)

Note that:

(1) Darkness created by Summon Fey's bonus action, unlike the Darkness spell, can be seen through by darkvision just like any other darkness.
(2) You don't need blindfighting to be able to see out of darkness, so blindfighting is actually redundant here.

If it weren't for #1 the darkness fey would be fantastic, but most non-natural monsters have darkvision, with the notable exception of (non-stone) giants.

[MrStabby]

Note that:

(1) Darkness created by Summon Fey's bonus action, unlike the Darkness spell, can be seen through by darkvision just like any other darkness.
(2) You don't need blindfighting to be able to see out of darkness, so blindfighting is actually redundant here.

If it weren't for #1 the darkness fey would be fantastic, but most non-natural monsters have darkvision, with the notable exception of (non-stone) giants.

Is (1) right?

Its still magical darkness.

[MaxWilson]

Is (1) right?

Its still magical darkness.

Per the PHB Vision and Light rules, magical darkness is still just like normal darkness: it creates heavy obscurement.

"Darkness creates a heavily obscured area. Characters face darkness outdoors at night (even most moonlit nights), within the confines of an unlit dungeon or a subterranean vault, or in an area of magical darkness."

The only thing special about magical darkness is that it's dark where it shouldn't be dark. Some spells like Hunger of Hadar create darkness with a special effect (e.g. Hunger of Hadar also blinds creatures within it, implying that it's opaque) but those are specific exceptions to the general rule.

[dreast]

Note that:

(1) Darkness created by Summon Fey's bonus action, unlike the Darkness spell, can be seen through by darkvision just like any other darkness.
(2) You don't need blindfighting to be able to see out of darkness, so blindfighting is actually redundant here.

If it weren't for #1 the darkness fey would be fantastic, but most non-natural monsters have darkvision, with the notable exception of (non-stone) giants.

Bah, you’re right. Unless I can convince my DM to add that quibble to the spell, which is unlikely. Ah, well, there’s always Fog Cloud. Or Gloom Stalkers. Or both! In fact, I think my ranger is gonna be a Gloom Stalker just to preserve this trick.

Another nifty thing these spells give: a necromancy-school powerful undead summoning spell that necromancers can take at level 5, since they get Animate Dead for free... at level 6.

Question: should a necromancer’s Undead Thralls ability apply to Summon Undead? I’d argue the corporeal form is created by the necromancer when the spell is cast, and imbued with an undead spirit, so yes, I’d allow it. Thoughts?

[MaxWilson]

Bah, you’re right. Unless I can convince my DM to add that quibble to the spell, which is unlikely. Ah, well, there’s always Fog Cloud.

Another nifty thing these spells give: a necromancy-school powerful undead summoning spell that necromancers can take at level 5, since they get Animate Dead for free... at level 6.

Question: should a necromancer’s Undead Thralls ability apply to Summon Undead? I’d argue the corporeal form is created by the necromancer when the spell is cast, and imbued woth an indead spirit, so yes, I’d allow it. Thoughts?

I don't think there's any question that Undead Thralls applies to Summon Undead. (So far I've never seen anyone say no.) The more interesting and controversial question is whether Grim Harvest applies to Summon Undead and/or Spirit Shroud. I haven't seen a consensus on one that although I think I've seen more No than Yes.

[dmhelp]

I am not a huge fans of minionmancy, since I feel it bogs down combat, but can get into the idea of summoning only one at a time.

I would gladly change subclass abilities to encourage single summons over armies of wolves....

[NecessaryWeevil]

I'm currently playing a level 14 Shepherd Druid, and I don't think I would prepare any of the three new summon spells available to Druids. Each of them seems flat-out weaker than the corresponding Conjure spells. The two potential problems with the Conjure spells, mentioned in this thread, are 1) that they summon an unwieldy amount of creatures and 2) that the caster doesn't get to choose the specific type of summoned creature.
I am good enough at being organized that my turns are fairly streamlined, so 1) isn't an issue at our table. The DM doesn't try to screw me over and it's hard to give something totally useless unless you're really trying, so 2) isn't an issue. Just ask the Storm Giant who was flattened by a stampeding herd of cows...
Summon Fey might be useful in very specific situations but again you're probably usually better off taking your chances with the DM's choices with Conjure Woodland Beings - even if Pixies are off the table.

So, the only time I'd really consider taking the Summon spells is if I were deliberately trying to handicap myself and not outshine the other PCs. Which is a legitimate concern with Shepherd druids sometimes.

[jojosskul]

Per the PHB Vision and Light rules, magical darkness is still just like normal darkness: it creates heavy obscurement.

"Darkness creates a heavily obscured area. Characters face darkness outdoors at night (even most moonlit nights), within the confines of an unlit dungeon or a subterranean vault, or in an area of magical darkness."

The only thing special about magical darkness is that it's dark where it shouldn't be dark. Some spells like Hunger of Hadar create darkness with a special effect (e.g. Hunger of Hadar also blinds creatures within it, implying that it's opaque) but those are specific exceptions to the general rule.

So, while I think you're right RAW I think RAI it's supposed to function like the darkness spell. Looking at the Devil's Sight invocation, it says specifically it can see through magical darkness. With this reading, however, it shouldn't have to say that.

The darkness spell states specifically that creatures with DARKVISION can't see through it. Devil's Sight is not Darkvision, so if it's only the Darkeness SPELL that requires Devil's Sight, and not all magical darkness, they shouldn't have to call out magical darkness in the ability. It should just say "You see normally in darkness to a range of 120 ft."

EDIT: Additional bit, if we go by your reading it makes the Tricksy summon VASTLY more powerful against anything that doesn't have darkvision. The Fey summons have darkvision, so under this reading every round a Tricksy Fey could drop darkness as a bonus action, do all of it's attacks with advantage (making Fuming Fey completely pointless), and then move away without worrying about opp attacks (which to be fair it could do under the magical darkness can't be seen through by darkvision ruling either.)

[JackPhoenix]

Is (1) right?

Its still magical darkness.

Blocking darkvision is a specific attribute of Darkness spell, not a general feature every source of magical darkness has.

[MrStabby]

Blocking darkvision is a specific attribute of Darkness spell, not a general feature every source of magical darkness has.

Yeah, I get confused by this. It's notthe first timet

[MrStabby]

So, while I think you're right RAW I think RAI it's supposed to function like the darkness spell. Looking at the Devil's Sight invocation, it says specifically it can see through magical darkness. With this reading, however, it shouldn't have to say that.

The darkness spell states specifically that creatures with DARKVISION can't see through it. Devil's Sight is not Darkvision, so if it's only the Darkeness SPELL that requires Devil's Sight, and not all magical darkness, they shouldn't have to call out magical darkness in the ability. It should just say "You see normally in darkness to a range of 120 ft."

EDIT: Additional bit, if we go by your reading it makes the Tricksy summon VASTLY more powerful against anything that doesn't have darkvision. The Fey summons have darkvision, so under this reading every round a Tricksy Fey could drop darkness as a bonus action, do all of it's attacks with advantage (making Fuming Fey completely pointless), and then move away without worrying about opp attacks (which to be fair it could do under the magical darkness can't be seen through by darkvision ruling either.)

Or use it with gloomstalker. Make them need darkvision then use gloomstalker so it doesn't work.

[jaappleton]

My current PC utilizes the Summon spells from Tasha’s fairly often.

I’m playing a Wildfire Druid as a Pokémon Trainer. The Wildfire Spirit is my ‘main’ ally, but there are times when I need a second helper, so I summon.

It’s worked quite well. There’s been two things which have helped tremendously:

Since the summon and wildfire spirit scale at certain points, since started them out like monster blocks with the necessary bonuses already applied so I never have to think about the math anywhere. While WOTC did a solid job getting them to scale with minimal effort, I wanted to make sure I didn’t miss anything. So I have them as pre-done monster stat blocks, pretty much.

Secondly, while I wait for my turn, I go through all their abilities while paying attention to what my allies are doing. When I’m up, I have a plan of action ready to go. Everything is smooth sailing without bogging down the pace of play.

[MaxWilson]

Or use it with gloomstalker. Make them need darkvision then use gloomstalker so it doesn't work.

Nice.

Also usable with Skulker.

[dreast]

Nice.

Also usable with Skulker.

Skulker still needs to hide, but yes, a level 14 ranger could use vanish with that to great effect, or a level 2 rogue.

[MaxWilson]

Skulker still needs to hide, but yes, a level 14 ranger could use vanish with that to great effect, or a level 2 rogue.

I enjoy Goblin Skulker Moon Druids. Unfortunately most wildshapes are too big to benefit from only 5' of darkness but it would work okay for when you're in goblin form.

[BerzerkerUnit]

I'm using the following:

Chainlock 5
Mindsliver
Pseudodragon familiar
-Voice of Chain Master
-Invest Familiar (bonus action attack, and familiar DCs equal Spell save DC, reaction to grant familiar resistance)
Summon Undead (Putrid option)

Pseudodragon can make 2 attacks/round if you use the attack action and a bonus action or you can Mindsliver to try and add some damage and debuff the target's next save.

Pseudodragon poisons target for an hour on a hit unless they con save. Con save DC is 16 with Invocation. If target fails by 5 or more, they fall unconscious.

Enter Putrid Undead. Undead attacks with claw, if the target is poisoned it forces a Con save or the creature is paralyzed until the end of its next turn.

That's some completely crippling nonsense.

Alternative: replace undead with Tricky Summon Fey.
Fey places darkness on familiar so attacks against the familiar have disadvantage. Pseudodragon has blindsight, suffers no penalty on melee and can move away without provoking since the enemy can't see it.

Buff spells like Aid, False Life and other stuff can keep the familiar up for a fair bit into the mid level, otherwise it's a great surprise gambit to try and knock out single big foe.

[Mr Adventurer]

One question I've got is: presumably the higher level spells also scale better?

That is, a Summon Fey (2nd level) cast from a 4th level slot isn't as good as a Summon Shadowspawn (3rd level) cast from a 4th level slot?

[ATHATH]

Buff spells like Aid, False Life and other stuff can keep the familiar up for a fair bit into the mid level, otherwise it's a great surprise gambit to try and knock out single big foe.
Isn't False Life's range "Self"?

[Valmark]

One question I've got is: presumably the higher level spells also scale better?

That is, a Summon Fey (2nd level) cast from a 4th level slot isn't as good as a Summon Shadowspawn (3rd level) cast from a 4th level slot?

Interestingly enough they don't scale very differently- besides hp, everything has the same scaling. Bestial Spirits are the only ones that gain only 5 hp for spell level (and notably Air Beasts are the ones with the lowes base- 20 hp double checking, not the only one) while the others gain 10 or 15 hp.

Base features differ of course.

[Dualswinger]

Interestingly enough they don't scale very differently- besides hp, everything has the same scaling. Bestial Spirits are the only ones that gain only 5 hp for spell level (and notably Air Beasts are the ones with the lowes base- 20 hp) while the others gain 10 or 15 hp.

Base features differ of course.

A few have different AC values too, and the damage output differs ever so slightly.

Funnily the best average damage per attack is a trickster fey, usually having advantage and doing 2d6 base damae per hit.

[Valmark]

A few have different AC values too, and the damage output differs ever so slightly.

Funnily the best average damage per attack is a trickster fey, usually having advantage and doing 2d6 base damae per hit.

Yeah I considered those in the base stats- AC and damage don't scale differently with spell level but starts differently.

On another note, I hadn't noticed the material component cost- maybe I'm used to having little money at low levels, but how many characters can spare 200 gp at level 3 for the material component of Summon Beast?

[Unoriginal]

Yeah I considered those in the base stats- AC and damage don't scale differently with spell level but starts differently.

On another note, I hadn't noticed the material component cost- maybe I'm used to having little money at low levels, but how many characters can spare 200 gp at level 3 for the material component of Summon Beast?

Well, it's not consumed by the spell, so it's an one-time-expense. Alternatively, rather than just spend gold, I would personally find it awesome to go on a quest for a gilded acorn, too.

[Dualswinger]

Well, it's not consumed by the spell, so it's an one-time-expense. Alternatively, rather than just spend gold, I would personally find it awesome to go on a quest for a gilded acorn, too.

Yeeeesssss!

Makes the spell so much more special when the player earns it like this, plus really strengthens party bonds when they aid each other like this!