Slow combat can be sooo frustrating.

[Spo]

When I first told my dm I wanted to play a Shepard druid, he related that he thought the class was very hard to play well and slow things down.

I viewed his comments as a challenge and printed out the stats of all my go to summons and listened carefully to the combats unfolding before my turn so that I would be ready when told to it was my turn. Tell the GM my intentions and have the dice ready. I would have moved and attacked with my summons, moved and attacked with my PC and complete everything in about a minute.

Then the rangerÂ’s turn would come:
“Uhm. What’s happening?”
“Fighter, who are you attacking?”
“Barbarian, who are you going to attack next?”
“Is everyone doing okay health wise?”
“Which creature looks the most damaged?”
“Are they my favored enemy?”
“How far away are they?”
“Okay, I shoot my arrow and move behind a pillar.”

Then the wizard goes:
“Are they wearing armor for shocking grasp or heat metal?”
“Why can’t I concentrate on more than one thing?”
“Do my spells work this way?”
“If I cast Protection from Evil will that protect me from mean people?”
“Would it be better to cast cone of cold or fireball on these people?”
“Would I guarantee kill him with this spell?”
“Should i upcast this spell?”
“Why can’t I dodge and cast a spell?”
“Okay, I’ll cast fireball”

I realize there are allowances for new players, but we are playing at tier 3 now and we started at lvl 1.

Inattentive players are like speed bumps on the road of fun play.

[OldTrees1]

I see you are using the forum to vent. Is it bothering you enough to be worth having a mature conversation with the players? On the other hand they are asking questions that are helping them learn.

[Randomthom]

I'm in a weekly Roll20 game where combat goes at a snail's pace. I've been there since level 1 and we're now lvl 12. It started with 1 DM and 2 Players, quickly gained 3 more players and was great for a while. We're now at 7 players with an 8th to join soon and the DM likes his NPCs and numerous enemy combatants.

One round has been known to take 45 minutes. Most of this is the DM using full PC-style NPCs complete with class abilities or taking time to decide which ability of many his monster will use.

Combat loses all drama and excitement at this pace and it is everyone's responsibility to make sure this doesn't happen but the DM's most-of-all, each player can only only really take responsibility for their own actions.

[Mastikator]

When I DM and people are slow I always introduce the amazing optional rule of "you have 10 seconds to decide what you do, if you exceed this time you take the dodge action" (the counter stops when you start doing stuff).

[ProsecutorGodot]

Yeah we've got a Player who tends to take longer turns. It was much worse when we were first starting out.

DNDBeyond has all of the actions a character can make listed in an easily viewable area. I would always suggest that a player familiarize themselves with the most common actions they could expect to take, whether that's attacking our spellcasting, and any potential bonus actions granted by their class or spells.

If that fails,b the DM should encourage them to speed it up.

[stoutstien]

The real question is, are the rest of the players/DM having fun with this more laid-back play style? You might be the square peg in this scenario.

[Tanarii]

I realize there are allowances for new players, but we are playing at tier 3 now and we started at lvl 1.Personally, I would have left that table long before the end of Tier 1.


Inattentive players are like speed bumps on the road of fun play.Slow combat in general is the suck of fun. It's okay in We Go, They Go systems, because everyone declares then you all get to do the resolution together. In modern D&D (since 3e made 2e's individual initiative rule the official rule), you might have to wait 2 minutes for four other players to make decisions execute between your turn and the DMs turn ... if they're on top form. If they dither about not even getting to the decision making part, let alone resolution part, it's going to take a lot longer than that.

When I hear folks say they take an hour to finish a normal 3-4 round combat that's like nails on the chalkboard to me. I don't understand how anyone can tolerate that.

[Guy Lombard-O]

When I hear folks say they take an hour to finish a normal 3-4 round combat that's like nails on the chalkboard to me.

What's sad is that I don't necessarily consider an hour that slow for a 4 round combat.

With 15 minutes per round, if you've got 5 players plus the DM, that's really only 2 minutes per player turn and 5 minutes for the DM (which is reasonable if there are multiple enemies). I certainly wouldn't call that fast, but it's hardly the sort of tireless slog that the OP seems to be talking about. With the online issues, that's really not that bad.

[ProsecutorGodot]

What's sad is that I don't necessarily consider an hour that slow for a 4 round combat.

With 15 minutes per round, if you've got 5 players plus the DM, that's really only 2 minutes per player turn and 5 minutes for the DM (which is reasonable if there are multiple enemies). I certainly wouldn't call that fast, but it's hardly the sort of tireless slog that the OP seems to be talking about. With the online issues, that's really not that bad.

I don't think a turn in combat should be taking all that much longer than a minute. I usually have my action in mind before it even comes to my turn so most of the turn is used to resolve things.

On the topic of player attentiveness, playing attention to the state of the game on other turns should speed up your own. It's always possible that something changes so drastically that you spend longer reevaluating but in my experience that's an uncommon thing.

Even for spellcasters who have a broad set of tools to choose from you usually have a go to option that is easily recognizable.

[Demonslayer666]

Tell them to pay attention when it's not their turn, and be ready when it is their turn.

My players are not great at this, it happens.

[Tanarii]

What's sad is that I don't necessarily consider an hour that slow for a 4 round combat.

With 15 minutes per round, if you've got 5 players plus the DM, that's really only 2 minutes per player turn and 5 minutes for the DM (which is reasonable if there are multiple enemies). I certainly wouldn't call that fast, but it's hardly the sort of tireless slog that the OP seems to be talking about. With the online issues, that's really not that bad.
Thats 4 times as long as I find proper pacing. 30 seconds per player and a just over a minute for the DM is about right for a Medium encounter, 15 minutes total.

A particular tactically interesting medium encounter might take longer, as would if your team uses some kind of hit and run tactics that extends how many rounds combat takes.

[Rule-Of-Three]

Old hand DM trick, it's homebrew and not for every group.

I've come up with a system that keeps the combat fast and cranks the tension to thirteen with rats coming out.

Each player gets 10 seconds to declare their action, plus an additional six seconds per point of bonus initiative. I write them all down at the beginning of the session, and set up a simple metronome ticker I can start/stop. At the end of the timer, if you haven't declared your action, in 5e must choose to Disengage, Dash, Dodge, or Hide. If you can't declare, it's automatically Dodge. If there is no telepathy kind of ability or otherwise means of instantly communicate thoughts, players are allowed to shout brief ideas at the cost of their reaction.

I developed this to counter slow play for a group that also was complaining, and discovered it's a nail-biter. Challenges get MUCH harder, so be careful calibrating your encounters. Also be aware some players get really antsy with the metronome, and if someone's obviously having performance anxiety, then don't do it. Finally it breaks down once the get high levels and start building for initiative, but for a tight tier 2 one-shot, especially a horror one, it's pure anxious gold.

[KorvinStarmast]

Old hand DM trick, it's homebrew and not for every group.

I've come up with a system that keeps the combat fast and cranks the tension to thirteen with rats coming out.

Each player gets 10 seconds to declare their action, plus an additional six seconds per point of bonus initiative. I write them all down at the beginning of the session, and set up a simple metronome ticker I can start/stop. At the end of the timer, if you haven't declared your action, in 5e must choose to Disengage, Dash, Dodge, or Hide. If you can't declare, it's automatically Dodge. If there is no telepathy kind of ability or otherwise means of instantly communicate thoughts, players are allowed to shout brief ideas at the cost of their reaction.

I developed this to counter slow play for a group that also was complaining, and discovered it's a nail-biter. Challenges get MUCH harder, so be careful calibrating your encounters. Also be aware some players get really antsy with the metronome, and if someone's obviously having performance anxiety, then don't do it. Finally it breaks down once the get high levels and start building for initiative, but for a tight tier 2 one-shot, especially a horror one, it's pure anxious gold. This post is pure gold.

[Rule-Of-Three]

This post is pure gold.

Thank you sir. Been at this a while, would hope I'd learn a trick worth sharing.

[MaxWilson]

When I first told my dm I wanted to play a Shepard druid, he related that he thought the class was very hard to play well and slow things down.

I viewed his comments as a challenge and printed out the stats of all my go to summons and listened carefully to the combats unfolding before my turn so that I would be ready when told to it was my turn. Tell the GM my intentions and have the dice ready. I would have moved and attacked with my summons, moved and attacked with my PC and complete everything in about a minute.

Then the rangerÂ’s turn would come:
“Uhm. What’s happening?”
“Fighter, who are you attacking?”
“Barbarian, who are you going to attack next?”
“Is everyone doing okay health wise?”
“Which creature looks the most damaged?”
“Are they my favored enemy?”
“How far away are they?”
“Okay, I shoot my arrow and move behind a pillar.”

Then the wizard goes:
“Are they wearing armor for shocking grasp or heat metal?”
“Why can’t I concentrate on more than one thing?”
“Do my spells work this way?”
“If I cast Protection from Evil will that protect me from mean people?”
“Would it be better to cast cone of cold or fireball on these people?”
“Would I guarantee kill him with this spell?”
“Should i upcast this spell?”
“Why can’t I dodge and cast a spell?”
“Okay, I’ll cast fireball”

I realize there are allowances for new players, but we are playing at tier 3 now and we started at lvl 1.

Inattentive players are like speed bumps on the road of fun play.

It's not entirely the players' fault though. A lot of the blame is on WotC for deliberating creating an initiative system that encourages players to tune out by forbidding them from even interacting with the DM or each other 75%+ of the time during combat because it's "not your turn." They tried to kludge around this with things like Legendary Actions but the root problem is that they've taken a cooperative, parallelized game and turned it into a sequential bottlenecked game.

Remember this from the AD&D DMG?


Here's an example of the combat sequence in action:
Rath is leading a party through the corridors of a dungeon. Right behind him are Rupert and Delsenora. Rounding a bend, they see a group of orcs and trolls about 20 feet away. No one is surprised by the encounter.
The DM has notes telling him that the orcs are hesitant. He secretly decides that they will fall back and let the trolls fight. The trolls, able to regenerate, are naturally overconfident and step forward to the front rank (cursing the orcs at the same time). Turning to the players, the DM asks, "What are you going to do?"
Harry (playing Rath, a dwarf who hates orcs: "Orcs?--CHARGE!"
Anne (playing Delsenora the Mage): "Uh, what!? Wait. Don't do that . . . I was going to . . . now I can't use a fireball spell."
DM: "Rath is charging forward. Quick--what are you doing?"
Jon (playing Rupert, the half-elf, to Anne): "Cast a spell! (To DM) Can I fire my bow over him?"
DM: "Sure, he's short."
Jon: "OK, I'll shoot at orcs."
DM: "Anne, tell me what Delsenora's doing or she'll lose the round trying to make up her mind."
Anne: "Got it! My acid arrow spell at the lead troll."
DM: "Fine. Harry, Rath is in front. Roll for initiative."

Notice how initiative rolling comes only AFTER everybody has decided on an action.

See if you can get your DM to run initiative AD&D-style instead of WotC-style.

[Evaar]

It is quite frustrating when some players come to the game with no apparent sense of ownership over their characters, expecting everyone else to instruct them on what their abilities do and what would be a good idea in any given scenario. Or arguably worse, the ones who have a vague sense of an ability they have and attempt to use it in scenarios that have little or no actual relevance to that ability.

I get it for the first couple levels for new players, but after that it really is a matter of reading your own damn abilities and then just paying attention to what's going on. Just generally play with some awareness that everyone is sharing their time, it would be polite not to waste it.

[GiantOctopodes]

Personally as the DM I roll w/ a 60 second timer per player, and a 60 second timer for myself and all NPC's turns. If you can't figure out what your character is doing in 6 seconds with 60 seconds yourself, your character is indecisive in the heat of battle and goes defensive while they try to figure out what they're doing.

If that seems harsh it's not, between other player's turns you have in a 4 person party really 5 minutes to figure out what you're doing in 6 seconds. For NPCs it helps me avoid overthinking it and playing them above their int levels, and when you're rolling attack dice and damage dice at the same time it really doesn't take long to figure out resolutions to things. Roll 20 certainly helps with that, but even with physical dice it shouldn't take too long, maybe make it a 2 minute timer instead of 1. Either way, when a player is feeling more engaged and with it, and not drifting off since he's sitting there for half an hour waiting for his turn, they don't need to ask a bunch of clarifying questions, and the whole thing flows WAY better.

Honestly I couldn't recommend a timer highly enough. It really helps set the expectation that players know what their options are and think about their turns ahead of time and everyone benefits as a result. It'll take some adjustments from everyone but without it combat really can drag on forever for no reason. Plus from a DM perspective it encourages rather than quibbling about this ability or spell doing x instead of y, just going with it and playing fast and loose with the systems which is really where imho 5e shines, basic ability checks w/ advantage or disadvantage vs ad hoc dcs, and interpreting everything the players say as them Attempting to perform the actions described, your job being to deliver what the results of that attempt were.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Thats 4 times as long as I find proper pacing. 30 seconds per player and a just over a minute for the DM is about right for a Medium encounter, 15 minutes total.

Maybe I'm overestimating how long our combats take. The folks I play with are capable and don't dither or fumble their turns, and I'm not talking about people who are inattentive or are particularly indecisive about what they'll do on their turns (outside of unexpected changes to the battlefield which occur directly before their turn).

But I don't think I've ever seen a player's turn take just 30 seconds, unless they're basically doing next to nothing on that turn (well, maybe in tier 1). Between movement, multiple attacks with dice resolutions, centering an AoE on a VTT, possibly a bonus action spell or attack, DMs supplying saving throws, possible monster reactions, and whatever else pops up, I don't think 2 minutes is outside the norm. At least for tier 2+ play. 5 minutes for the DM is probably on the long side, but if they're running a couple groups of different types of monsters, not crazy long.

I'll pay more attention to timing the next time I play, and see how long the individual player turns and rounds actually are. I will say that things moved faster during our in-person games.

[ScoutTrooper]

I'm in a weekly Roll20 game where combat goes at a snail's pace...

I too run a weekly to bi-weekly Roll20 game. The combat does drag on for most of the game night. It's been going for just over a year, 4x level 1's. Now we’re at 3x level 10's, 2x level 9's and 2x level 5's.

I've relinquished all NPCs that they've recruited over to them for choice in move, action. Some started full stated, most have been converted to Sidekick stats.

I found that as they creeped in level, I would up the number of hobgoblins and other mobs. This resulted in the casters taking lots of AoE spells. So when we went from large scale encounters to small ones. The smaller ones were over quite quickly with a Sorc and a high initiative roll.

I've also went to groups of mob sharing the same Initiative order. As well as mob rules to hit, as some of the PCs have gotten into the mid-high range of AC (17~20). And in most cases where it’s an ambush, I take average damage in order to move right into the next full round and the player’s actions.

And without letting them know the exact AC value of the mobs, when their attack rolls meet, I give the audio cue of “Your attack just barely connects” alerting them to the AC value, which make them clicking for damage speed up for the rest of the encounter on that type of mob.

[Tanarii]

I'll pay more attention to timing the next time I play, and see how long the individual player turns and rounds actually are. I will say that things moved faster during our in-person games.
I also missed you're playing online. If the system isn't fully automated, from what I've heard VTTs slow things down even more than battlemats slow things down.

[Guy Lombard-O]

I also missed you're playing online. If the system isn't fully automated, from what I've heard VTTs slow things down even more than battlemats slow things down.

Yeah, they definitely do. Using Roll20, I have to click or unclick this box and that box to add modifier for to hit and damage (bless, smites, GWM, various other things) from attack to attack, things which I'd just do quickly and automatically with dice in person, and it slows things down quite substantially. Admittedly, I'm no expert at it but I've gotten far better this year since Covid and we're all at least minimally capable with it now. But it's still quite a bit slower than a battle map. Scaling and placing AoE effects is slower as well (we had purchased plastic templates for the in person battle maps). Altogether, I think it takes about 80-100% longer on a VTT, at least for us.

[Tanarii]

Yeah, they definitely do. Using Roll20, I have to click or unclick this box and that box to add modifier for to hit and damage (bless, smites, GWM, various other things) from attack to attack, things which I'd just do quickly and automatically with dice in person, and it slows things down quite substantially. Admittedly, I'm no expert at it but I've gotten far better this year since Covid and we're all at least minimally capable with it now. But it's still quite a bit slower than a battle map. Scaling and placing AoE effects is slower as well (we had purchased plastic templates for the in person battle maps). Altogether, I think it takes about 80-100% longer on a VTT, at least for us.
Okay that's fair. I consider 30 seconds avg per player proper pacing, with attacks going faster than spells. But a minute each for big battles on battlemats would be acceptable for the important ones. And I do consider battlemats necessary for tactically complex battles, which tend to be the Hard and Deadly ones anyway, there's a limit to how many enemy creatures that aren't all the same low level mob that a party can handle as a Medium battle until high level.

Edit: quick combat resolution of Medium (and Easy) combats is important IMO because it allows DMs to utilize the most important out of combat pacing mechanism in their toolbox: random encounters. But if those are a serious slog, players resent them so much they become negatively viewed beyond tactical considerations with regard to resource management of time.

Random encounters are also generally not tactically complex and can be run TotM, which can cut time by as much as half, especially when you eliminate battlemat set up time. It also cuts down on the combat swoosh feeling when combat starts.

[KorvinStarmast]

It is quite frustrating when some players come to the game with no apparent sense of ownership over their characters, expecting everyone else to instruct them on what their abilities do and what would be a good idea in any given scenario. Or arguably worse, the ones who have a vague sense of an ability they have and attempt to use it in scenarios that have little or no actual relevance to that ability. I still have two players who put little to no effort in mastering their PC. It annoys me, but they are friends so I have for the time being put up with it.
VTTs slow things down even more than battlemats slow things down. Yeah, they do.
I consider 30 seconds avg per player proper pacing, with attacks going faster than spells. I like your idea on ToTM for Easy to Medium encounters.

[Keravath]

Maybe I'm overestimating how long our combats take. The folks I play with are capable and don't dither or fumble their turns, and I'm not talking about people who are inattentive or are particularly indecisive about what they'll do on their turns (outside of unexpected changes to the battlefield which occur directly before their turn).

But I don't think I've ever seen a player's turn take just 30 seconds, unless they're basically doing next to nothing on that turn (well, maybe in tier 1). Between movement, multiple attacks with dice resolutions, centering an AoE on a VTT, possibly a bonus action spell or attack, DMs supplying saving throws, possible monster reactions, and whatever else pops up, I don't think 2 minutes is outside the norm. At least for tier 2+ play. 5 minutes for the DM is probably on the long side, but if they're running a couple groups of different types of monsters, not crazy long.

I'll pay more attention to timing the next time I play, and see how long the individual player turns and rounds actually are. I will say that things moved faster during our in-person games.

A lot of it can simply come down to rolling the dice effectively. 30 seconds is easily achievable even with multiple attacks.

eg1

PAM paladin at level 5 - has three attacks
- in person - I roll three d20s, 2 d6s, 1 d4 - color coordinated - for two spear attacks and a butt end - if the combat is ongoing, I will know whether numbers over 20 or some other value already hit though I might verify with the DM, I also likely know that 8- misses. I add up the numbers, check borderline to hit values with the DM and tell him the damage done. Takes 30 seconds or less. If a target dies due to the first or second hit, I already know where I am moving for the rest. If there is nothing else in range I just rolled some extra dice but it doesn't take any longer.

- on Roll20 - turn on always use advantage (use the left number normally - choose higher or lower if advantage or disadvantage) - click normal attack twice and butt attack once. DM reads, processes and assigns damage. Again less than 30 seconds except for Roll20 lag.

eg2 same character - slow player
- in person - rolls a d20 - asks does it hit (even if they know if it does or not 20+, 8-) - if it hits sorts through the dice for appropriate damage die - rolls it - adds up damage (sometimes has to refer to the character sheet for the damage even if they have been playing the character for 2 years) - tells DM - gets out another d20 - rolls it - again asks if it hits (even if they should know) - again searches for damage die - rolls damage die - adds modifiers - tells DM - finds and rolls another d20, asks DM if it hits, find damage die (different from the first two so takes some time) - rolls it - adds modifiers - tells DM damage. If the target dies part way through the player asks the DM who else is within range even if they can see on the map. Decides they want to move to attack the big guy, DM points out that this gets an opportunity attack from a minion. Player reconsiders, attacks minion.

These are not new players. I think what happens is that these players develop habits when they first learn the game, always consult the DM, always look up their stat, always wait to see how the first attack is fully resolved before going onto the next - just because when you are learning you make mistakes - that is normal. However, the rote becomes so habitual that even after playing for a year, they still do it even though they should know the answers to their questions. The player has either developed habits or turned off their willingness to learn and make things more efficient for everyone.

The suggested 10 seconds or dodge rule does help break these habits though you want to apply it gently. Similarly, encouraging folks to have already decided in general what they will do before their turn is a good idea. If a character is looking up spells on their turn then they didn't plan ahead, haven't read up on their character, or have too many options to fit in the ~5 minutes between their turn and their next turn.

I've seen the same happen in Roll20 though it isn't as bad since the DM can have them turn on always roll 2 d20 and the damage is rolled automatically which also saves time. You just need to convince the player to press the appropriate attack button. Online play speeds the mechanical aspects but it can make the decision making more difficult (especially if using theatre of the mind) since some players are better at visualizing that others.

-------

As DM, I try to have the NPC actions planned out with options so that it takes as little time as possible. If I am looking up monster abilities and taking time deciding what they will do during the turn then I need to do more prep.

P.S. I'm not sure things move faster during in person games - there may be just more distractions chatting to friends instead of staring at your screen which makes it feel faster. It may also be easier to make suggestions to slower folks in person but it may also depend on the mapping and visualization tools used to play in person vs online that can have an impact on how long turns take.

[Rule-Of-Three]

"Just to clarify, my Base 10 +6 per point of initiative system is for them to declare their actions, not resolve them. It would be unplayable otherwise.

What I've found is that good players that understand combat often take a long time to find the perfect plan, when several good ones is usually evident in the first couple of seconds. By setting the timer, it curbs their best impulses, and speeds the flow of play. Just tone back the opponents some, because your players are going to be missing optimized plays all the time.

[Demonslayer666]

Battlemats do not slow me down. They allow me to plan my turn without asking questions of the DM. They let me see how many I can hit with Fireball or decide if Lightningbolt is better. It allows me to decide my tactics instead of asking the DM if it's possible.

Most important to me though, it keeps the DM honest. They can no longer nerf what I can do based on a whim or fudge their creatures abilities.

There is a place for theater of mind combats, but battlemats are far better for complex combats. Complex combats are inherently longer, but that' snot the fault of the battlemat. :)

[Samayu]

Yeah, they definitely do. Using Roll20, I have to click or unclick this box and that box to add modifier for to hit and damage (bless, smites, GWM, various other things) from attack to attack, things which I'd just do quickly and automatically with dice in person, and it slows things down quite substantially. Admittedly, I'm no expert at it but I've gotten far better this year since Covid and we're all at least minimally capable with it now. But it's still quite a bit slower than a battle map. Scaling and placing AoE effects is slower as well (we had purchased plastic templates for the in person battle maps). Altogether, I think it takes about 80-100% longer on a VTT, at least for us.

In Roll 20, I do a lot of things after my turn is over, like marking spell slots and the like. Like, "yeah, I'm going to drop a smite. Here's 2d8." Meanwhile, a purple box shows up on the map and starts moving around, because another guy is planning where to drop his fireball.

[Samayu]

When I first told my dm I wanted to play a Shepard druid, he related that he thought the class was very hard to play well and slow things down.

I viewed his comments as a challenge and printed out the stats of all my go to summons and listened carefully to the combats unfolding before my turn so that I would be ready when told to it was my turn. Tell the GM my intentions and have the dice ready. I would have moved and attacked with my summons, moved and attacked with my PC and complete everything in about a minute.

Then the rangerÂ’s turn would come:
“Uhm. What’s happening?”
“Fighter, who are you attacking?”
“Barbarian, who are you going to attack next?”
“Is everyone doing okay health wise?”
“Which creature looks the most damaged?”
“Are they my favored enemy?”
“How far away are they?”
“Okay, I shoot my arrow and move behind a pillar.”

Then the wizard goes:
“Are they wearing armor for shocking grasp or heat metal?”
“Why can’t I concentrate on more than one thing?”
“Do my spells work this way?”
“If I cast Protection from Evil will that protect me from mean people?”
“Would it be better to cast cone of cold or fireball on these people?”
“Would I guarantee kill him with this spell?”
“Should i upcast this spell?”
“Why can’t I dodge and cast a spell?”
“Okay, I’ll cast fireball”

I realize there are allowances for new players, but we are playing at tier 3 now and we started at lvl 1.

Inattentive players are like speed bumps on the road of fun play.
Sounds frustrating. I hope your DM isn't blaming you for the slow play.