Champion fighter, berserker barbarian, or both? Best crit fisher build advice please.

[poolio]

Howdy y'all, so, just as the title says, which is the best way to go about building a crit fisher type character? I've already decided on half-orc and great axe, but I'm open to opinions for other races and weapons, particularly duel wielding battle axes, but I'm just not great at theory crafting and figuring out the mathematics of probably and all that, so that's why i come to humbly ask the great minds of the playground for their opinions =)

Thanks in advance for any insight and views other may have. And happy holidays folks!

[MadBear]

Probably best to go Fighter 6 (for the extra feat), Barbarian 14.

Berserker is gonna be alright, but the exhaustion isn't great. Maybe look into another subclass that'll do more for you.

You might be better getting the feats: PAM (for the bonus action attack) and Piecer Feat (Which will let you add another die to crits, and lets you reroll a damage die once per turn)

At level 20 you'd get

- 4 dice added to your crits (2 from brutal crit, 1 from race, 1 from piercer)
- at will advantage with reckless attacks
- 3 attacks per turn
- 19-20 crit range

[poolio]

Wow that was fast lol i keep forgetting about the new feats, so I'll keep that in mind, thanks, and yeah i forgot to mention that with the berserker, the bonus action attack with a great axe is what attracted me to it in the first place, along with barbarian in general for more dice.

I'll be sure to keep PAM in mind, but I'm open to more ideas, I'm not exactly married to any of my ideas or optimization, just have a preference for axes at the moment lol

[Master O'Laughs]

You could also go Champion Fighter 16, Beast Barbarian 4.

If you take PAM, you can get 5 attacks a turn as long as one of your attacks is with a beast barb claw to allow a free additional attack.

Attack action - 3 attacks (fighter lvl 11)
Beast barb - 1 attack (as long as one attack from attack action was using a claw)
PAM - 1 BA attack

Crit range is 18-20

[heavyfuel]

Okay, honest question, why do you want to crit fish?

"Crits are fun" is a valid enough reason, but I feel like crits in 5e are way too weak on their own. If you're going for a PAM build, then a crit only means like 5 extra damage at best.

Unless you have something you really want to do with crits (like Smites or Sneak Attack), crit fishing is probably not a great way to go about.

Still, your very first priority should be getting that 19-20 crit range and Extra Attack, followed by a constant source of Advantage.

Champion 5 / Barb 2 / Champion +1 / Barb +2 is a neat way to do it, but then your build isn't exactly crit fishing before you're halfway into Tier 2 and you're also locked into Str weapons and probably Medium Armor as well.

A probably better way to do it would be Pally 5 / Champion 3 / Pally +12. You're not a great crit fisher, but at least your crits hurt like the seven hells instead of mildy annoy your enemies.

[RogueJK]

You need to have a reason to fish for crits. You can crit all the time, but if you're only doubling the lone weapon dice, it doesn't mean much. Instead, a crit fisher needs to find a reliable way to stack on a bunch of additional damage dice, which are then also doubled on a critical hit.

Smites are one easy source. Sneak Attack is another. Fighters and Barbarians get neither.


Champion Fighters don't really get anything there, as far as making your crits worthwhile. They make it happen more often, but you're still left with "why are you fishing?"

Barbarians at least get Brutal Critical at higher levels, which is not nothing, but is only one dice and doesn't come online until Barbarian 9. They then get a second dice at Barbarian 13.

Half Orc's Savage Attacks helps a little, but again, it's only one dice.

The new Slasher/Crusher/Piercer feats from Tasha's each add a little to a crit, either a bit of extra damage (Piercer) or a nice rider (Slasher/Crusher).


Therefore, without Smites or Sneak Attack, you'll need to stack a bunch of those together in order for it to be worth your time to fish.

So of the options you're considering, a single-classed Champion just by itself is right out. A Barbarian with 3 levels of Champion is okay, but delays your Barbarian Brutal Critical and Extra Attack even further, so that's probably not a great idea, at least at the front end.

If you're dead-set on a Half Orc with a Greataxe, your best bet would probably be a single classed Barbarian with the Slasher feat. This would get you 1 extra dice from your racial ability from Level 1 (3d12 on a crit), then the rider from the Slasher feat from Level 4 or 8 (3d12 plus Disadvantage on a crit), then a second extra dice from Brutal Critical at Level 9 (4d12 plus Disadvantage on a crit). You could then maybe consider dipping 3 levels of Champion after Barbarian 9, if you'd rather have the expanded critical range at the cost of delaying your next Brutal Critical dice at Barbarian 13 by another 3 levels.


But if you're willing to completely change from a Half Orc with Greataxe, there are much better crit-fishing builds out there, generally involving some flavor of Elf with the Elven Accuracy feat, using either a DEX-based Fighter/Rogue build with a Longbow or Rapier, or a CHA-based Hexblade/Paladin or Hexblade/Sorcerer/Paladin build with a Longsword/Warhammer/Battleaxe. They'll not only crit more often than a Half Orc Barb, but also hit harder with each crit.

[Rara1212]

Probably best to go Fighter 6 (for the extra feat), Barbarian 14.

Berserker is gonna be alright, but the exhaustion isn't great. Maybe look into another subclass that'll do more for you.

You might be better getting the feats: PAM (for the bonus action attack) and Piecer Feat (Which will let you add another die to crits, and lets you reroll a damage die once per turn)

At level 20 you'd get

- 4 dice added to your crits (2 from brutal crit, 1 from race, 1 from piercer)
- at will advantage with reckless attacks
- 3 attacks per turn
- 19-20 crit range

Question: What weapon are you thinking of using in this case? The OP said they wanted a greataxe, which won't work with PAM nor Piercer. Glaive, Halberd & Quarterstaff won't work with Piercer, Pike will but it won't work with the BA attack from PAM. Spear will work with both(tho the bonus action attack is a d4 bludgeoning, so won't work with piercer, and isn't good for crits) It is Versatile, but still 2 steps lower than a greataxe.

[poolio]

Guess i should expand a little on what i was planning on playing him as huh? =P i usually just ask for mechanics and whatnot cause most of the time these kinds of posts just seem like excuses for the OP to gush about how cool their character is and i like to try to avoid that lol but well here goes.

So I've been playing a while and wanted to try the champion, i figured the only way it would be any use to my group would be looking for crits, so i made a gladiator background half orc, taken from his tribe to fight as a slave from a young age, one way or another he finds himself in the care of one other players as a bodyguard or something, not important at this juncture lol and having been raised in an arena, they played up his orc heritage by having him use axes, i like great axes, but was wondering if the possibility of duel wielding or having both be possible, or if it would cause me to stretch him thin on unnecessary tactics.

But anyway, crit fishing just seemed like a worthwhile thing to think about as a way to try and get some extra damage in as i didn't see him finding religion, for paladin, and being to straight forward and blunt for precision attacks, but again, I'm open to any and all ideas =) my table has always had a greater emphasis on flavor and roleplaying over just straightforward mechanics, i just didn't want to handicap myself to much lol

[RogueJK]

A Half Orc Barbarian or Champion won't be handicapped. It just won't be the uber-optimized crit-fishing crazy nova damager that some of the really specialized crit-fishing builds can be.

If you're okay with respectable but not overly amazing damage number, and are more in it for the roleplaying, then either one is a fine choice. Your crits may not be mind-blowing, but they'll be better than some other characters, plus you'll be putting up solid damage numbers each round between your good STR, multiple attacks, potentially Great Weapon Master if you choose to take that at some point, and Rage if you go Barbarian instead of Fighter.

I do think the Barbarian will be the much more satisfying option than Champion, even besides the better crit damage. Champions are mechanically bland, since unlike every other class or subclass, they can't really do any cool things besides just making weapon attacks every round. No other combat tricks or options. No out of combat abilities. Just "I attack...", every round. It takes real work on your part to up the roleplay fluff and flavor in order to keep combat from just getting old.


However, I'll add that before you settle on the Berserker subclass in particular, make sure you understand how Exhaustion works in 5E, and how Berserker's Frenzy interacts with that. Exhaustion levels are extremely difficult to get rid of in 5E, with taking a Long Rest being the most reasonable way, but each Long Rest only removes one level of Exhaustion. (The Greater Restoration spell is the only other way, but that requires a Level 9+ Cleric to cast it, and also only removes one Exhaustion Level per casting.)

Berserkers gain a level of Exhaustion every time your Frenzy ends. So basically, you'll Frenzy for the first time that day, and once that Frenzy ends, you're now at Disadvantage on all ability checks from Level 1 Exhaustion. If that's the only time you Frenzy that day, once you take a Long Rest, you're back to normal the next day. However, if you Frenzy a second time in that same day, you're now at Level 2 Exhaustion with your speed now halved on top of ability check Disadvantage, and even after a Long Rest you're still at Level 1 Exhaustion and still have the Disadvantage on all ability checks. You then Frenzy again that next day, and are back to Level 2 Exhaustion. Then you get thrown into a tough battle and Frenzy a second time that day, and are now at Level 3 Exhaustion with Disadvantage on all Attacks and Saving Throws. You try to sleep that night, but are only able to get back to Level 2 Exhaustion the next day.

As a result, these Exhaustion levels really pile up quickly, without a good way to rid yourself of them, unless you only ever Frenzy once per long rest, period. (It almost comes off like Berserker was originally written at a point in 5E development when Exhaustion worked a different way, and they never circled back to finalize tweaking it before it went live.)

This is the big reason why Berserkers are viewed so poorly by most players. None of the other Barbarian subclasses (or any other classes' subclasses, in fact) have such a potentially crippling penalty from using their primary ability.

Therefore, unless your DM is willing to bend the rules and do something like allow a Long Rest to remove all of your Exhaustion levels, or have a Short Rest remove an Exhaustion Level, or simply remove the Exhaustion from Frenzy, or give it a short duration time limit like an hour, I would strongly recommend going with a different Barbarian subclass. Bear Totem is the old standby, and works well with a tough Greataxe-wielding gladiator, but you can do cool things with any of them.

[poolio]

A Half Orc Barbarian or Champion won't be handicapped. It just won't be the uber-optimized crit-fishing crazy nova damager that some of the really specialized crit-fishing builds can be.

If you're okay with respectable but not overly amazing damage number, and are more in it for the roleplaying, then either one is a fine choice. Your crits may not be mind-blowing, but they'll be better than some other characters, plus you'll be putting up solid damage numbers each round between your good STR, multiple attacks, potentially Great Weapon Master if you choose to take that at some point, and Rage if you go Barbarian instead of Fighter.

I do think the Barbarian will be the much more satisfying option than Champion, even besides the better crit damage. Champions are pretty mechanically bland, since unlike just about every other class or subclass, they can't really do any cool things besides just making weapon attacks every round. No other combat tricks or options. No out of combat abilities. Just "I attack...", every round. It takes real work on your part to up the roleplay fluff and flavor in order to keep combat from just getting old.


However, I'll add that before you settle on the Berserker subclass in particular, make sure you understand how Exhaustion works in 5E, and how Berserker's Frenzy interacts with that. Exhaustion levels are extremely difficult to get rid of in 5E, with taking a Long Rest being the most reasonable way, but each Long Rest only removes one level of Exhaustion. (The Greater Restoration spell is the only other way, but that requires a Level 9+ Cleric to cast it, and also only removes one Exhaustion Level per casting.)

Berserkers gain a level of Exhaustion every time your Frenzy ends. So basically, you'll Frenzy for the first time that day, and once that Frenzy ends, you're now at Disadvantage on all ability checks from Level 1 Exhaustion. If that's the only time you Frenzy that day, once you take a Long Rest, you're back to normal the next day. However, if you Frenzy a second time in that same day, you're now at Level 2 Exhaustion with your speed now halved on top of ability check Disadvantage, and even after a Long Rest you're still at Level 1 Exhaustion and still have the Disadvantage on all ability checks. You then Frenzy again that next day, and are back to Level 2 Exhaustion. Then you get thrown into a tough battle and Frenzy a second time that day, and are now at Level 3 Exhaustion with Disadvantage on all Attacks and Saving Throws. You try to sleep that night, but are only able to get back to Level 2 Exhaustion the next day.

As a result, these Exhaustion levels really pile up quickly, without a good way to rid yourself of them, unless you only ever Frenzy once per long rest, period. (It almost comes off like Berserker was originally written at a point in 5E development when Exhaustion worked a different way, and they never circled back to finalize tweaking it before it went live.)

This is the big reason why Berserkers are viewed so poorly by most players. None of the other Barbarian subclasses (or any other classes' subclasses, in fact) have such a potentially crippling penalty from using their primary ability.

Therefore, unless your DM is willing to bend the rules and do something like allow a Long Rest to remove all of your Exhaustion levels, or have a Short Rest remove an Exhaustion Level, or simply remove the Exhaustion from Frenzy, or give it a short duration time limit like an hour, I would strongly recommend going with a different Barbarian subclass. Bear Totem is the old standby, and works well with a tough Greataxe-wielding gladiator, but you can do cool things with any of them.

Oh yes, I'm well aware of the ridiculousness of frenzies draw backs, it's another very poor choice compared to other options for barbarians lol but my potential dm for this character is actually going to be trying several homebrew "fixes" for the champion, like giving expertise on athletes and acrobatics when he hits level 7 instead of the usual things granted by remarkable athlete, which should make him a decent grappler, as well as make him good at shoving and tripping enemies, a lot of people forget that battle master isn't the only one that can do that stuff, they just get bonuses to do so =) and now that i refreshed my memory on the new feats from tasha's cauldron, that fighting style for unarmed strikes could fit him well i think,

Thanks again for taking the time to give me suggestions and input on this everyone =) i hope to see even more ideas soon

[RingoBongo]

Okay, hear me out...

Wood elf Champion X, Monk 1-3 (kensai?)

Always on attacks switching between longbow and quarterstaff. Utilizing monks ability to use dex in place of str for quarterstaff and punish foes in melee with PAM and crusher, while stepping back to use sharpshooter with longbow when at range or if with certain advantage.

No armor, and decent AC at level 4 with 18 dex and monk's unarmored defense.

Starting point but something like this:
Str 8
Dex 15+2
Con 15 (or 13)
Int 8,
Wis 15+1
Cha 8

Feats/ASI: elven accuracy (dex), PAM, crusher (con), SS, +2 dex

Is this a good idea? I've never played Monk or dipped for it, but I have been toying with this build idea all day.

[RogueJK]

Okay, hear me out...

Wood elf Champion X, Monk 1-3 (kensai?)

Always on attacks switching between longbow and quarterstaff. Utilizing monks ability to use dex in place of str for quarterstaff and punish foes in melee with PAM and crusher, while stepping back to use sharpshooter with longbow when at range or if with certain advantage.


Is this a good idea? I've never played Monk or dipped for it, but I have been toying with this build idea all day.


Unless you're wanting it for the free OA when an enemy closes with you, PAM wouldn't even be strictly necessary,

Level 1 Monks already get Martial Arts, giving them a Bonus Action attack for 1d4+DEX bludgeoning damage, when you make an Attack with a Monk Weapon (like a quarterstaff). That's identical to the damage of the PAM Bonus Action attack, without having to spend a feat.

The only real difference would be if you end up using a magic quarterstaff, whereby the Bonus Action unarmed attack wouldn't get the magic weapon bonus to attack/damage nor would it be able to bypass resistance against nonmagical bludgeoning damage, but a Bonus Action PAM attack with the magic quarterstaff would.


But again, if you do a Monk/Champion, you run into the same issue as all Champions of "What am I fishing for?" Cool, so your Quarterstaff attacks now crit twice as much... But when they crit, they only go from 1d8+DEX (~10.5) to 2d8+DEX (~14), or 1d4+DEX (~7.5) to 2d4+DEX (~10). That extra 3ish damage isn't very impressive, and isn't a good reason to be fishing for crits.

Without sources of multiple additional dice to stack on to the crits to also be doubled, you're better off just sticking with a single-classed Monk and at least getting the cool Monk abilities and larger unarmed/quarterstaff damage dice as you progress, since you won't be able to really exploit the Champion's expanded crit range.

[RingoBongo]

Unless you're wanting it for the free OA when an enemy closes with you, PAM wouldn't even be strictly necessary,

Level 1 Monks already get Martial Arts, giving them a Bonus Action attack for 1d4+DEX bludgeoning damage, when you make an Attack with a Monk Weapon (like a quarterstaff).

The only real difference would be if you end up using a magic quarterstaff, whereby the Bonus Action unarmed attack wouldn't get the magic weapon bonus to attack/damage nor would it be able to bypass resistance against nonmagical bludgeoning damage, but a Bonus Action PAM attack with the magic quarterstaff would.


But again, if you do a Monk/Champion, you run into the same issue of "What am I fishing for?" Cool, so your Quarterstaff attacks now crit twice as much... Going from 1d6+DEX to 2d6+DEX, or 1d4+DEX to 2d4+DEX.

Without multiple additional dice to stack on it, you're better off just sticking with a single-classed Monk and at least getting the cool Monk abilities and larger damage dice as you progress.

There are quite a few magical staffs out there. Just off the top of my head staff of striking (very rare) is +3 and you can decide when to add 1d6 charges on the the damage roll for the attack...

And yeah, the extra attack there when enemy engages with PAM is pretty frequent and can add another attack with crit chance to make future attack at advantage (on your off turn vs. only once during your turn).

You are right you aren't adding much because of low damage die but you are pushing crusher feat to the limit that can set up allies (and sometimes yourself) with advantage so you can switch to hit with longbow + ss (which you can add 1d4 to each shot with kensai shot)

[RogueJK]

A crit for a Champion/Monk with a quarterstaff only results in around 3 extra points of damage, and that's just from the weapon dice. (Even with PAM; which doesn't affect the damage output on a crit.)

Compare to the baseline of a bog-standard Rogue or Paladin, which are the two simplest ways to make crits worthwhile, even without specifically building/multiclassing and uber-optimizing for crits.

A 1st level Rogue with a Rapier or Longbow is adding an additional ~8 point of damage to a critical Sneak Attack, and it goes up by another ~3.5 every other level. 8 at 1st, 11.5 at 3rd, 14 at 5th, 17.5 at 7th, etc. That's on top of the normal weapon and regular Sneak Attack dice that they would be inflicting anyway on a non-crit.

A 2nd level Paladin with a Greatsword is adding an additional ~16 points of damage to a critical Smite with a 1st level slot, and it goes up by another ~4.5 for every spell slot above 1st. 20.5 with 2nd level slot, 25 with 3rd, etc. That's on top of the normal weapon and regular Smite damage that they would be inflicting anyway on a non-crit. (And not counting the bonus against Fiends/Undead.)


That's just with Sneak Attack or Smite alone, not counting any of the various additional spells/feats/subclass/racial abilities that add extra damage dice that a Rogue or Paladin can use to keep boosting those even further.

It's a good baseline from which to judge "Is my crit-fishing build worth fishing with?" If your crit-fisher isn't at least outperforming a basic Rogue or Paladin's Sneak Attack/Smite, it's time to try something else.

[Ganryu]

Let's go pure fighter! Infact, let's make this ridiculous. We're going to want champion build, with the half orc. Feats we need:

Dual Wielder
Mounted Combatant
Orcish Fury

We're dual wielding lances atop an elephant! And mowing people down!
Now, as long as anything is large, or smaller, you have advantage!
You crit on an 18, 19, or 20!
You attack 5 times in a regular turn, and 9 on an action surged one. You WILL crit, several times during this.
Spend Orcish Fury whenever you get that first crit, which won't be long. Want to make it worse, get Hex with a feat too, only stat you need is strength.

If you want, spend a feat on Savage attacker too, make those hits more consistent. But yeah, this is just critting for days. I'm not sure it's as much 'crit fishing' though, as fishing implies you're aiming for WHEN you get that crit, while this build is just plain never DON'T crit.

You want a real crit fish build, go for Paladin Warlock. 3 levels paladin, grab Vengeance paladin. Use channel divinity on someone you want to unalive. Then Hexblade's curse them, and spam Booming Blade every turn. When you crit, unleash both regular smite and eldritch smite. You'll go from decent damage to the DM takign a moment while you read him the dice.

Lvl 20 it's
26d8+ 4d6 + 26
157

(10d8 - Smite
10d8 - Eldritch smite
6d6 - Booming blade
4d6 - great sword
10 - GWM
5- weapon mod
5 - Lifedrinker
6 - Hexblade's curse)
average: 157

Convince someone to go Grave Domain Cleric and you can double it.


Hell, at level 12 it's similar damage.

[JediMaster]

Spirit Shroud and Booming Blade makes crit fishing extremely valuable.

3+ levels in Monk (Open Hand?), Champion 3, Bladesinger 6+ and PAM for reaction attack and Elvish Accuracy for increased crit percentage is a solid starting point for lots of attacks and a damage rider that makes critting worth it.

[RogueJK]

Spirit Shroud and Booming Blade makes crit fishing extremely valuable.

3+ levels in Monk (Open Hand?), Champion 3, Bladesinger 6+ and PAM for reaction attack and Elvish Accuracy for increased crit percentage is a solid starting point for lots of attacks and a damage rider that makes critting worth it.

That build finally comes online at Level 12 (not exactly a starting point). And you're going to be struggling with a very MAD character needing good DEX, WIS, and INT, but only finally getting 1 ASI at Level 10. And you won't even be able to put that lone ASI towards your stats, because you'll be having to choose between spending it on either PAM or Elven Accuracy. (You can't have both with a character with only 1 ASI, and you can't get a 1st level feat by virtue of having to be an Elf to qualify for Elven Accuracy.)

Even with that Level 12 BladeMonkion getting a Quarterstaff crit stacking Booming Blade + Spirit Shroud, you're looking at an additional 4d8 extra damage added on the crit. That's ~18 damage.

You'd be better off with a basic Level 7 Rogue or a Level 2 Paladin, either of whom are adding that much extra on a Smite/Sneak Attack crit already, without needing 5-10 extra levels, triple multiclasses, three high stats, a couple feats, and their Concentration. And that's not counting any other sources of additional damage dice (spells, feats, subclass abilities, racial abilities, etc.) that a Rogue or Paladin could access to boost it up even further... This is just with one basic class ability apiece.

[JediMaster]

That build finally comes online at Level 12 (not exactly a starting point). And you're going to be struggling with a very MAD character needing good DEX, WIS, and INT, but only finally getting 1 ASI at Level 10. And you won't even be able to put that lone ASI towards your stats, because you'll be having to choose between spending it on either PAM or Elven Accuracy. (You can't have both with a character with only 1 ASI, and you can't get a 1st level feat by virtue of having to be an Elf to qualify for Elven Accuracy.)

Even with that Level 12 BladeMonkion getting a Quarterstaff crit stacking Booming Blade + Spirit Shroud, you're looking at an additional 4d8 extra damage added on the crit. That's ~18 damage.

You'd be better off with a basic Level 7 Rogue or a Level 2 Paladin, either of whom are adding that much extra on a Smite/Sneak Attack crit already, without needing 5-10 extra levels, triple multiclasses, three high stats, a couple feats, and their Concentration. And that's not counting any other sources of additional damage dice (spells, feats, subclass abilities, racial abilities, etc.) that a Rogue or Paladin could access to boost it up even further... This is just with one basic class ability apiece.

(And even those don't hold a candle to some of the really impressive crit damage numbers from super-optimized crit-fishing builds. Especially in Tier 3 and 4.)

Sorry, I should have prefaced that this is an Adventurer's League build.

[RogueJK]

Adventurer's League doesn't change the dice averages.

[JediMaster]

Adventurer's League doesn't change the dice averages.

Nope. It does change dice averages. And I want to say Elven Accuracy is not set in stone. Some tables allow Custom Lineage (Elvish Accuracy). And I also should clarify that I build for Tier 4 and beyond and I am fine with the extra challenge a late bloomer build brings.

[Ganryu]

Still suggest my mounted combatant build. Realized it's probably actually stronger as a barbarian than fighter.

Only thing we're missing out on is orcish fury, which is optional anyways.

2 feats on a barbarian is a little heavy tax, but you still hit 20 Str, and can use medium armor for decent AC.

[Gignere]

What about a bardadin whispers + vengeance? Stack smite and inspiration damage dice.

[RogueJK]

What about a bardadin whispers + vengeance? Stack smite and inspiration damage dice.

Yep, that's one of the many ways to potentially boost a Paladin's Critical Smite damage. (Bardadins work pretty well anyway, for several reasons.)

And the cool thing is that you choose to apply both Smite and Psychic Blades after you know whether you've hit/crit, so you can save both of them up for use with crits alone if you want.


So you start with a foundation like that - Whisper's Bard Psychic Blades + Paladin Divine Smite - and you figure out how you can build from there. Go Half-Elf so you can take Elven Accuracy for Triple Advantage with CHA attacks, and you're going to want a good CHA anyway, so that means a level of Hexblade for CHA-based 1H weapons, Hexblade's Curse, and Booming Blade.

Now you've got something like a Half Elf Hexblade 1/Paladin 2/Whispers Bard 4 with Elven Accuracy and an 18 CHA, as a starting point. At Level 7, you're doing:

1d8 Longsword
1d8 Booming Blade
2d6 Psychic Blades
4d8 3rd Level Smite
+CHAMOD

and those eight damage dice are doubled on a crit, adding an extra ~34 damage on a crit, for ~72 average damage total on a Critical Hit at Level 7.

Now you have something to fish for. (Mid-double digits extra damage: worth it... 3 points of extra damage: not worth it.)

And you can fish very well, thanks to frequent opportunities for Elven Accuracy Triple Advantage, and with Hexblade's Curse running your crit range is doubled too. And you've got 1st and 2nd level Bard spells, so you can use spells like Faerie Fire, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, or Blindness to help generate Advantage when you don't have it through other means. Or Hold Person to Paralyze one enemy and get auto-crits on melee hits. Or get the party Druid to help by tossing out Entangle, or similar.

Then just keep stacking stuff on from there. If you aren't concentrating on something else, toss Hex on there for more damage dice. Maybe take some more Bard levels for higher level slots for bigger 4th and 5th level spell slot Smites. Maybe take another level of Paladin for Vengeance Paladin's Vow of Emnity or Ancients Paladin's Nature's Wrath and Ensnaring Strike, for more Advantage opportunities. Maybe take the Slasher/Crusher/Piercer feat eventually. Maybe dive in with more Hexblade levels to get the Eldritch Smite Invocation too, so you can Eldritch Smite while you Divine Smite. And so on.

(20th Level uber-crit-fisher builds are cool and impressive, but not very practical unless you're playing a Level 20 one-shot. Tier 2ish semi-reasonable crit-fisher builds are much more potentially useful, because they come online during levels that the average campaign has a good shot at reaching.)

[loki_ragnarock]

How does your DM feel about Sage Advice? It impact the following suggestion a smidgen in an edge case.

Champion/College of Whispers can combo pretty well.

Faerie Fire to give yourself advantage. Save your Whispers inspiration to add damage dice, which is doubled on a crit, so save them for crits, which you should be doing fairly consistently when you've got advantage.

Meanwhile, get a bunch of non-fighty stuff to diversify your character.

Ideally, Bard 5/Fighter 15 split.

Start fighter. Add bard a bit at a time. You peak with crit enhancers that recharge on a short rest.

You can use any weapon. But if you can grab PAM, more attacks equals more chances at a crit. But swords = more chances at pulling a weapon that adds damage die. So follow your heart.

Race... ah, there's the rub. You can go half-orc and get an extra die. Or you can go Half/Elf for a shot at elven accuracy and a greater chance at generating crits, but you'll be pigeonholing yourself into dex builds.


But there's also the gonzo:
Champion 6/Paladin 2/Whispers 12

Increased spell slots for smites, greater critical range, spells that can provide advantage, inspiration smites to double up.
Something like 10d8 + 10d6 on a crit if you save your highest slots and burn an inspiration there at the end. Your magical secrets can add to that considerably, with Tenser's Transformation netting you the all important advantage and an extra couple of d12s to your damage rolls. For something like +4d12 on a crit. Assume you're a half orc with a great axe for a base of 3d12 on a crit... but don't do that; the extra d12 isn't as good as going two weapon fighting with short swords so you can pull in an extra attack and elven accuracy for greater chances at a crit. Add another 2d8 if they're an undead or fiend. Pray you get ahold of a weapon that adds extra dice.
So maybe 2d6+10d6+12d8+4d12 by level 18. Grab a weapon that does extra dice of damage and giggle all the way to the dice bank.

Takes *forever* to come online. But sometimes you look at your dice collection and think to yourself, "I want to roll a bunch of those."

[JediMaster]

There is always Pal 2/ Sorc 2/ Hex 1/ Bladesinger 13/Fighter 2 (Metamagic Adept, Eldritch Adept).

A Simulacrum and Agonizing Blast will undoubtedly increase total number of crits from attacks and the availability of killer combos like Wall of Force and Wall of Light.

Is converting the Fighter 2 to Champion 3 worth dropping Hexblade 1? Quite possibly. Less bonus action congestion. Focus on Dex instead of Cha. Drop Eldritch Adept for ASI or Alert.

[animewatcha]

One I always wondered is if you could use unearthed arcana as your '+1` in adventures league.

[CTurbo]

I think a simple Half-Orc Champion/Barbarian would be fun and effective. Let's assume 20 Str, GWF/GWM, and Greataxe.

I can't decide between

1. Barbarian 2/Champion 18
2. Champion 3/Barbarian 17


1. Gets 3 attacks per round, 1d12+15 on a regular hit and 2d12+15 on a crit. More attacks, higher crit %, more reliable chance of getting the bonus action attack.
2. Gets 2 attacks per round, 1d12+15 on a regular hit and 5d12+15 on a crit. Less attacks, lower crit %, less reliable chance or getting the bonus action attack, but crits hit much harder.

The quick math says they deal an extremely similar amount of damage with number 1 coming out ahead in the long run. Number 2 is more risk/reward. Either would be fun.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Don't forget GWM also gives you a bonus action attack on crit or kill, I think it is better to go zealot Barbarian for the chance of extra dice on crit(even if it is only a D6) if the crit is on the first attack in your turn.

Piercer and PAM with a Pike is a great idea.
I will try to get as much barb into the build as I can for the extra crit dice.

Half orc and Orcish Fury for more extra dices is also cool.

[LumenPlacidum]

I'm playing a half-orc critical build in a game right now. It is absolutely viable to play a half-orc Champion 3 with a d12 weapon and get some pretty satisfying critical hits. It's important to be able to feel your build while you play as opposed to building towards something with eventual benefits.

If you want to make your character better at level 4, go ahead and improve your Strength for more overall benefit. If you just want to feel happier when you get that big hit, go with Orcish Fury. It's worded in much the same way as a Smite ability, which I would interpret as being multiplied on a crit. Rather than build advantage into the character, work with your party to provide you with lay-ups for these good rounds. On a turn where you action surge against a prone target or something, you have a 35% chance to crit with a greataxe for 5d12+strmod, which is of course not stupendous, game-breaking damage, but does it need to be to be satisfied with it? Without Action Surge it drops to a 19% chance to crit.

At level 5 you'd have a 35% chance to crit on a normal round of advantage attacks, and a 47% chance with Action Surge.

My own champion got a homebrew magic weapon which is a d12 to attack and a d20 to damage, which is terrible for a normal build, but synergizes perfectly with the building for crits (the DM ruled that my 19-20 crit range translates to an 11-12 crit range).

Probably the earliest excellent crit-based build is the hexblade elf/halfelf warlock at level 4. Hexblade gives you a 19-20 crit range, eldritch smite obviously has excellent synergy, and Elven Accuracy is ridiculous for criticals. At level 5, such a character with the extra attack invocation and smiting would have a 47% chance of getting a crit each round. It can still be for a die of 1d12 base due to the lance, and throwing Hex and Smite on top of that makes for great damage output... until you run out of slots, of course. But, if your goal is to put a smile on your own face because you got a crit for 50 damage, then this build will regularly do that at lower levels than other builds can manage.

I admit that I'd planned to take some barbarian for the half-orc, but I'm already doing more damage than anyone else in the party, and working with them for advantage makes things more fun because we have very significant benefit working together.

[Yakk]

As noted, to crit fish you need (a) a good way to get crits, and (b) something to use when you crit.

Barbarian +[W] damage on a crit is anemic and costs way too much. All barbarian offers to a crit-fishing build is advantage.

A 19-20 crit range can come from Hexblade 1 or Champion 3.

Significant crit dice delivery comes from one of:
Eldritch smite
Smite
Whispers smite
Spell smites

and that is about it. Orc's [W] costs you elven accuracy.

Other sources of dice are also ok, but because they are closer to at-will they don't scale as well.

Booming/greenflame blade (this costs you taps, which sucks). +1d8/tier
Shadowblade +(Slot+1)/2 d8
Spirit Shroud +(Slot-1)/2 d8
Sneak attack (+1d6 per (level+1)/2 invested)
Tenser's Transformation (+2d12 and advantage for a level 6 slot)
Superiority dice (4d8 /short rest but only 1d8 per attack)

and similar.

Paladin 6/Hex 1/Whispers X starts off as a Paladin (solid), adds in 19-20 crit range and cha-attacks at 7, then starts investing in spell slots (whispers bard). At bard 3 (level 10) you start getting whispers-smites, which continue to scale.

You only get 1 set of magical secrets (at level 18), but at that level you gain access to (say) holy weapon and holy steed, and your crit-smites are impressive.

[Gignere]

As noted, to crit fish you need (a) a good way to get crits, and (b) something to use when you crit.

Barbarian +[W] damage on a crit is anemic and costs way too much. All barbarian offers to a crit-fishing build is advantage.

A 19-20 crit range can come from Hexblade 1 or Champion 3.

Significant crit dice delivery comes from one of:
Eldritch smite
Smite
Whispers smite
Spell smites

and that is about it. Orc's [W] costs you elven accuracy.

Other sources of dice are also ok, but because they are closer to at-will they don't scale as well.

Booming/greenflame blade (this costs you taps, which sucks). +1d8/tier
Shadowblade +(Slot+1)/2 d8
Spirit Shroud +(Slot-1)/2 d8
Sneak attack (+1d6 per (level+1)/2 invested)
Tenser's Transformation (+2d12 and advantage for a level 6 slot)
Superiority dice (4d8 /short rest but only 1d8 per attack)

and similar.

Paladin 6/Hex 1/Whispers X starts off as a Paladin (solid), adds in 19-20 crit range and cha-attacks at 7, then starts investing in spell slots (whispers bard). At bard 3 (level 10) you start getting whispers-smites, which continue to scale.

You only get 1 set of magical secrets (at level 18), but at that level you gain access to (say) holy weapon and holy steed, and your crit-smites are impressive.

Hexblade curse is not a true crit fisher since it’s only once per rest. Until really high level you can’t even move it. I mean you can expect to probably use it in half your encounters, on one and only one creature per encounter. It’s still good but not quite the same if you want to crit fish all the time.

Sneak attack scales just as well as most smites and it doesn’t cap as low as the warlock and Paladin smites. So I don’t know why you put it in the poorly scaling crit damage category. Doubling 10d6 of damage is better than 5th level Paladin and Eldritch Smites.

[Kane0]

Half Orc (extra die)
Crusher/Slasher/Piercer (extra die and rider)
Champion 3+ OR Hexblade 1+ (Crit range)
Rogue 2+ (extra die and source of advantage)

Bonus points this can work with both melee and ranged attacks depending on your weapon choice and feat pick.

Extras you can look into:
Paladin 2+ (smites)
Ranger 3+ (extra die and/or attacks)
Barbarian 9+ (extra die)
Great Weapon master (BA attack on crit)
Shield Master (source of BA advantage)
Crossbow Expert (BA attack)
Polearm Mastery (extra attack)
Sentinel (reaction attack)

It largely comes down to your stats, ASIs and personal preference.

[bid]

Rogue 2+ (extra die and source of advantage)
How does rogue help for advantage?

[Gignere]

How does rogue help for advantage?

Steady Aim?

[Hytheter]

Champion 3/Barb X is a build that gets talked about, but it's a trap - not only is it just not that good, it's not even as strong as the reverse multiclass of Barb 2/Champion X. That third attack does tons more damage than the diminishing returns you get from Brutal Critical.

[Kane0]

How does rogue help for advantage?

Hiding and Steady Aim

Edit: plus also expertise for shoving if you want

[Kemev]

I think a simple Half-Orc Champion/Barbarian would be fun and effective. Let's assume 20 Str, GWF/GWM, and Greataxe.

I can't decide between

1. Barbarian 2/Champion 18
2. Champion 3/Barbarian 17


1. Gets 3 attacks per round, 1d12+15 on a regular hit and 2d12+15 on a crit. More attacks, higher crit %, more reliable chance of getting the bonus action attack.
2. Gets 2 attacks per round, 1d12+15 on a regular hit and 5d12+15 on a crit. Less attacks, lower crit %, less reliable chance or getting the bonus action attack, but crits hit much harder.

The quick math says they deal an extremely similar amount of damage with number 1 coming out ahead in the long run. Number 2 is more risk/reward. Either would be fun.

I'd go for option 1, mostly on the logic that more feats = more fun. I'd grab Barb 3 over Champ 18 though for the extra rage and the path feature (although that could change if the OP's DM is boosting Champ abilities).

GWF/GWM definitely fits the "obliterate with Great Axe" vibe, but I'd lean into two-weapon fighting after I got a few feats in... pair up the new Slasher + Crusher feats with an axe/scimitar + hammer combo, then try to load up debuffs on a target. It'd be a fun way to multiply the effects of Reckless Attack; turn advantage for yourself into advantage for the team with a bludgeoning crit, or negate the advantage of the return attack with a slashing crit.

The dual wield also has a nice gladiatorial feel to it, like the Roman Dimaechaeri (core gladiator value: can't go killing your opponent in one shot -- the crowd likes it better if you toy with your victim first).

[bid]

Hiding and Steady Aim
Oh, I'm a little behind on them newfangled things.:smallwink:

[MedicinalCarrot]

IMHO, the best starting point for crit fishing is as an Elf (or Half Elf with Tasha's ability rearranging) with starting Dex 17 and 4 levels of Arcane Trickster Rogue. That gets you:

Elven Accuracy: Bumps you to 18 Dex, gives you about 3/4 the crit boost as critting on 19s when you have advantage (14.26% vs 19%), and helps you hit more in general.
Multiple ways to gain advantage: Steady Aim and an owl familiar doing fly by help actions. Advantage + Elven Accuracy is better for crits than critting on 19s with no advantage.
More dice to double when you crit: Sneak Attack and Booming Blade
And lots of general use tricks.

From there you'll want:
A way to crit on 19s . Champion Fighter 3 is the more reliable and consistent option, but takes 3 levels to really get going. Hexblade Warlock only works for 1 enemy per rest, but it's also only a 1 level dip and gives more spells, plus is on the way to smiting. If you care more about going nova against big enemies, it's not a bad choice.

A way to smite. Paladin 2 and/or blade pact Warlock 5 will both do the trick, and can be combo'd. Paladin 3 can also get you Oath of Vengeance for another advantage option. Warlock 5 comes with a couple short rest 3rd level slots for smiting.

More levels in Rogue at some point: more sneak attack damage and more spell slots for tricks. If you get up to level 13, you can also use your mage hand for advantage.

Spells to keep in mind: Shadow Blade (more dice and yet another advantage option), Haste (an extra swing per round and better AC).

A Whispers Bard can also toss out good dice comparable to a sneak attack, but has a more limited number of uses.

At minimum I'd go Rogue 4 / either Hexblade 1 or Champion 3 / Paladin 2

For a steady, crit fish all day build, something like Rogue 15 (Arcane Trickster) / Fighter 3 (Champion) / Paladin 2 build should work. 8d6 sneak attack, 3d8 Booming Blade, three 3rd level and 7 other spell slots, and 2 spare ASIs. Avg 130 + weapon die damage your first 3 crits, 94 + weapon on crits without smiting. 52.5 + weapon with a normal hit.

If you want to focus on taking out just the biggest bad guy per day, you could go with something like Rogue 6 (Arcane Trickster) / Warlock 7 (Hexblade / Pact of the Blade) / Bard 5 (Whispers) / Paladin 2. 3d6 sneak attack, 3d8 Booming Blade, 3d6 psychic blades 5 times per long rest, two 4rd level smites on each of your fist 2 crits, 10 other spell slots, and 1 spare ASI. Avg 170 + weapon die damage on the first 2 crits, 53 + weapon on crits without smiting or psychic blades. 32 + weapon on a normal hit.

[RingoBongo]

A crit for a Champion/Monk with a quarterstaff only results in around 3 extra points of damage, and that's just from the weapon dice. (Even with PAM; which doesn't affect the damage output on a crit.)

Compare to the baseline of a bog-standard Rogue or Paladin, which are the two simplest ways to make crits worthwhile, even without specifically building/multiclassing and uber-optimizing for crits.

A 1st level Rogue with a Rapier or Longbow is adding an additional ~8 point of damage to a critical Sneak Attack, and it goes up by another ~3.5 every other level. 8 at 1st, 11.5 at 3rd, 14 at 5th, 17.5 at 7th, etc. That's on top of the normal weapon and regular Sneak Attack dice that they would be inflicting anyway on a non-crit.

A 2nd level Paladin with a Greatsword is adding an additional ~16 points of damage to a critical Smite with a 1st level slot, and it goes up by another ~4.5 for every spell slot above 1st. 20.5 with 2nd level slot, 25 with 3rd, etc. That's on top of the normal weapon and regular Smite damage that they would be inflicting anyway on a non-crit. (And not counting the bonus against Fiends/Undead.)


That's just with Sneak Attack or Smite alone, not counting any of the various additional spells/feats/subclass/racial abilities that add extra damage dice that a Rogue or Paladin can use to keep boosting those even further.

It's a good baseline from which to judge "Is my crit-fishing build worth fishing with?" If your crit-fisher isn't at least outperforming a basic Rogue or Paladin's Sneak Attack/Smite, it's time to try something else.

So I agree with you on this. I can't get around a low damage die without decent riders. Smites are limited throughout the day and rogue's sneak attack applies only on one of those attacks. Plus, cunning action is pretty legit. HOWEVER, in my search for other ideas I've now strayed to consider a ranger dip actually. Hunter -collossus slayer (1d8) + favored for (1d4, free action to turn on limited uses) + hunter's mark (1d6 on every hit also limited uses).

So my new, current consideration is to just play with a longbow and rapier, but still favoring longbow with archery fighting style and SS.

So getting into it I see starting something like this...

Personally, I like wood elf (and for access to elven accuracy) and to be fair

Str 14
Dex 17
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 13
Cha 8

Progression: fighter 8, ranger 4, fighter 12

Feats/ASI: piercer (str) - yay access to heavy armor, SS, elven accuracy, +2 dex

I'll take 3 fighting styles I'm my career: archery, blind fighting, and dueling/defense

Spells (easy choice - only 3 lvl 1 slots): hunter's mark, zypher strike, fog cloud.

And expertise in stealth at ranger level 1 (character level 9)

Not the greatest 1- 20 progression bit it does allow for some nova:

19-20 crit range for most of career and starting with early piercer feat for more juice.

I don't want to get into nova damage math again... But from my slow calculations it didn't look half bad, and it's fairly versatile with range and melee-- though most damage goes to range with SS, but that's okay because typically first blood is made at range if possible anyways.

How bout them apples?

[Gignere]

So I agree with you on this. I can't get around a low damage die without decent riders. Smites are limited throughout the day and rogue's sneak attack applies only on one of those attacks. Plus, cunning action is pretty legit. HOWEVER, in my search for other ideas I've now strayed to consider a ranger dip actually. Hunter -collossus slayer (1d8) + favored for (1d4, free action to turn on limited uses) + hunter's mark (1d6 on every hit also limited uses).

So my new, current consideration is to just play with a longbow and rapier, but still favoring longbow with archery fighting style and SS.

So getting into it I see starting something like this...

Personally, I like wood elf (and for access to elven accuracy) and to be fair

Str 14
Dex 17
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 13
Cha 8

Progression: fighter 8, ranger 4, fighter 12

Feats/ASI: piercer (str) - yay access to heavy armor, SS, elven accuracy, +2 dex

I'll take 3 fighting styles I'm my career: archery, blind fighting, and dueling/defense

Spells (easy choice - only 3 lvl 1 slots): hunter's mark, zypher strike, fog cloud.

And expertise in stealth at ranger level 1 (character level 9)

Not the greatest 1- 20 progression bit it does allow for some nova:

19-20 crit range for most of career and starting with early piercer feat for more juice.

I don't want to get into nova damage math again... But from my slow calculations it didn't look half bad, and it's fairly versatile with range and melee-- though most damage goes to range with SS, but that's okay because typically first blood is made at range if possible anyways.

How bout them apples?

I don’t think you can turn on both favored foe and HM at the same time both requires concentration.

[RogueJK]

Correct, it's either/or.

Colossus Slayer + Favored Foe is only adding the same damage as a Level 3 Rogue's Sneak Attack, and also only applies to one attack per round. And Sneak Attack keeps scaling with ever other additional level.

Hunter's Mark is very slightly better, since it applies to every hit. But again, even with 2 attacks it's only adding the same as 3 levels/2d6 Rogue Sneak Attack per turn. And the fact it applies to more than one hit doesn't affect the damage on a single crit specifically anyway.

So a Level 5 Rogue does more additional doubled dice on a Sneak Attack crit than a Colossus Slayer + Favored Foe/Hunter's Mark crit. (3d6 doubled vs 1d8+1d4/1d6)


Even if you start stacking them together, with a Ranger 5/Rogue X or similar, you'd have an additional chance to potentially land a Crit from Extra Attack, but the crit would be doing the same or slightly less damage than just the same level single classed Rogue.

Ranger 1/Rogue X is very slightly better on single crit damage at alternating levels than a single classed Rogue, giving you a doubled d4 boost on crits on levels that the single classed Rogue doesn't gain an additional d6 Sneak Attack dice, but then doing a couple points less damage on levels that the single classed Rogue does.

[RingoBongo]

Correct, it's either/or.

Colossus Slayer + Favored Foe is only adding the same damage as a Level 3 Rogue's Sneak Attack, and also only applies to one attack per round. And unlike Sneak Attack, it doesn't scale with more levels.

Hunter's Mark is very slightly better, since it applies to every hit. But again, with 2 attacks it's only adding the same as 3 levels of Rogue per turn.

So a Level 5 Rogue does more additional doubled dice on a Sneak Attack crit than Colossus Slayer + Favored Foe/Hunter's Mark.


It's only if you start stacking them together, with a Ranger 5/Rogue X or similar, that you'd be onto something significant.

Yes, but if you are only taking a 3-4 dip of ranger and are trying for another ASI at 12 around fighter 11 (extra, extra attack), looking to scale up damage riders and forgoing that 4th fighter attack by taking (rogue, ranger/rogue, or paladin to a max of 8 levels is a okay. 3-4 levels of Ranger is a decent viable option to include.

[RogueJK]

Doubling 1d8+1d4/1d6 is only an extra ~7/8 damage on a crit compared to a regular hit.

Don't get me wrong, a Ranger 4/Fighter 12 with Sharpshooter/Colossus Slayer/Hunter's Mark/etc. and 3 attacks does very good damage each round with its standard hits, but it's not worth building specifically a crit fisher around, because its crits won't be any more spectacular than its regular hits.

So it's got apples, just not them crit apples.

(You'd be better off with that Ranger/Fighter slinging multiple Battlemaster Maneuvers on its heavy standard hits than trying for crits with a Champion.)

7/8 points is a little better than the 3 points on a quarterstaff example earlier, but still nothing compared to the mid-to-high double digits extra crit damage of a true crit fishing build.

[RingoBongo]

Doubling 1d8+1d4/1d6 is only an extra ~7/8 damage on a crit compared to a regular hit.

Don't get me wrong, a Ranger 4/Fighter 12 with Sharpshooter/Colossus Slayer/Hunter's Mark/etc. and 3 attacks does very good damage each round with its standard hits, but it's not really worth building specifically a crit-fisher around, because its crits won't be any more spectacular than its regular hits.

7/8 points is a little better than the 3 points on a quarterstaff example earlier, but still nothing compared to the mid-to-high double digits extra crit damage of a true crit fishing build.

If a crit is a hit and with a 19-20 range the plus 10 to sharpshooter can essentially be thought of as and average of 2d10 ish, then wouldn't that also be significant to include in calculations? I guess if you are crit fishing why not bring -5, +10 into the equation anyways?

[RogueJK]

Nope.

Your Ranger 4/Fighter 12 has at least a +12 Attack bonus from Archery fighting style, 20 DEX, and Level 16 Proficiency, plus Triple Advantage on many attacks from Elven Accuracy, plus whatever other item/spell bonuses they have as a Tier 4 character.

So with that in mind, regarding crits-as-auto-hits on 19 specifically: Even when using Sharpshooter and dropping their attack bonus to only +7, if they roll a 19 but they're not a Champion and therefore it's not an auto-hit crit, that still hits up to a 26 AC.

Thanks to bounded accuracy, even high level enemies in 5E don't have ludicrous ACs, unlike earlier editions. The highest AC in the Monster Manual is 25, and that's on the Tarrasque. The next highest are on the toughest Dragons, which only have a 22 AC.

Even an enemy NPC with Heavy Armor, a Shield, and the Shield spell only has a 25 AC, with potentially a point or two higher if they also have magic armor/shield, or the Defense Fighting Style, or Shield of Faith, or something like that. So you might very rarely see an AC over 26 on a purpose-built decked-out enemy NPC gish.

Therefore "19 crits-as-auto-hits" doesn't matter much at all for your Ranger/Fighter build. This applies even at lower levels when your attack bonus isn't quite as high. Even if you only have a +1 or so total attack bonus when using Sharpshooter you're still hitting AC 20 on a 19 non-crit attack roll, and you're not going to be running into ACs in the low-to-mid-20s at these lower levels anyway.

[RingoBongo]

Also, I think you can decide to use colossus slayer after you see a crit so that's 5d8 with piercer feat, and with 3 attacks you can decide to save for example the 2nd 3rd attack roll to add on. Not sure...

[RogueJK]

Kinda.

Unlike something like Favored Foe, it doesn't specifically have to apply to "the first time you hit". So you can choose not to apply it to your first hit, but then you're gambling that you're still going to hit/crit on any additional attacks that turn. If you don't use it on your first hit, and then don't hit with any other attack rolls, you miss out on that free damage that turn altogether.

Unless your DM lets you cheese it by rolling all your multiple attack rolls at once, and then saying "Ooh, that d20's a 20, so that's the attack I'm going to use Colossus Slayer on!"

[RingoBongo]

Kinda.

Unlike something like Favored Foe, it doesn't specifically have to apply to "the first time you hit". So you can choose not to apply it to your first hit, but then you're gambling that you're still going to hit/crit on any additional attacks that turn. If you don't use it on your first hit, and then don't hit with any other attack rolls, you miss out on that free damage that turn altogether.

Unless your DM lets you cheese it by rolling all your multiple attack rolls at once, and then saying "Ooh, that d20's a 20, so that's the attack I'm going to use Colossus Slayer on!"

With advantage and elven accuracy you have more freedom to gamble on a later attack.

[RogueJK]

Right. If you have a high enough attack bonus and frequent Triple Advantage that hits are virtually guaranteed, then yeah, you could take that safe bet and simply hold off applying it until the final hit of your turn in case one of the attacks along the way is a crit.

Still, I go back to my original point that 1d8 from Colossus Slayer isn't worth specifically fishing for.

Anyone can get crits, and even a little bit of extra damage from a crit is nice. But it's not worth building a focused crit-fisher specifically unless you have significant sources of multiple additional damage dice. You end up cutting yourself off from better/more broadly useful options (like Battlemaster instead of Champion subclass) in the pursuit of occasional minimal single-digit extra damage.

[RingoBongo]

Right. If you have a high enough attack bonus and frequent Triple Advantage that hits are virtually guaranteed, then yeah, you could take that safe bet and simply hold off applying it until the final hit of your turn in case one of the attacks along the way is a crit.

Still, I go back to my original point that 1d8 from Colossus Slayer isn't worth specifically fishing for.

Anyone can get crits, and even a little bit of extra damage from a crit is nice. But it's not worth building a focused crit-fisher specifically unless you have significant sources of multiple additional damage dice. You end up cutting yourself off from better/more broadly useful options (like Battlemaster instead of Champion subclass) in the pursuit of occasional minimal single digit extra damage.

I'd argue that moderate damage die increases + dex based attack with elven accuracy and sharpshooter would have a similar effect. Especially considering the fact that longbow is range and can typically always have a target as opposed to a pure melee. Also damage is sustained on non crits with colossus/Hm/ff riders + Ss.

But I am not a math wiz or as deep a theorycrafter as some. Too many variables for me.

[RogueJK]

I'd argue that moderate damage die increases + dex based attack with elven accuracy and sharpshooter would have a similar effect. Especially considering the fact that longbow is range and can typically always have a target as opposed to a pure melee. Also damage is sustained on non crits with colossus/Hm/ff riders + Ss.

But I am not a math wiz or as deep a theorycrafter as some. Too many variables for me.

You're missing my point.

All of those factors about Colossus Slayer/Hunter's Mark/Favored Foe/Sharpshooter/DEX-based attacks/Elven Accuracy/fighting at range/etc. apply to a Ranger/Battlemaster just as much as a Ranger/Champion. There's literally no incentive to go Champion instead of Battlemaster, unless you're specifically chasing more crits from the Champion's expanded crit range. And the extra control/debuffs/damage dice from the frequent application of Battlemaster Maneuvers far outweighs the occasional 7ish extra damage you're going to be getting from the more frequent crits from going Champion.

That Ranger/Fighter is a good standard damage build. Just not a good Crit damage build specifically. So no point in focusing on the expanded crit range of Champion, especially since it comes at the cost of better subclass options.

[iTreeby]

The butcher's bib from explorers guide to wildemount is a rare item that removed the need for champion fighter in most crit fishing builds. I suspect that a hypothetical best crit fishing build with magic items would use this item.

If you could pick magic items, a elf rogue with elven accuracy, a moon blade and a butcher's bib gets pretty crazy. Magic items are definitely broken if you are allowed to make a wishlist or buy specific items.