Strongest Subclass Combo for Rogue 12/Figher 8

[Pyrophilios]

So, I had a discussion about maximizing ASI/Feats on a single character - and obviously a custom/variant human Rogue 12/Figher 8 maxes out at 1 Feat + 7ASI/Feats.

Concept wise this isn't actually a bad combination, but I wonder - which two subclasses for those levels would have the best synergies?

PSI Warrior and Soulblade come to mind for an obscene amount of PSI dice
Battlemaster and Swashbuckler for self given Reaction Sneak Attack
or a simple Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster combo?

What can you come up with (especially considering the many feats available)

[StoneSeraph]

My first thought was a Scout/Champion archer or crossbowman.

It's basic critfishery, but I enjoy basic critfishing because critical hits are fun, so I'll stand by it. I'd play the character as a sniper/ambusher/combat-starter (so basic, it's almost caustic...). My go-to Level 1 feat would be Skill Expert (+DEX, <skill>, Perception expertise); the expertises I would pick up later from rogue levels would be poured into Stealth and whatever else fit the campaign.

VHuman and Custom Human would get the most Feats/ASI's, but I wouldn't exclude elves and half-elves owing to Elven Accuracy. That raises the question of whether Elven Accuracy is worth two Feats/ASI's compared to the human tracks, but that's a discussion for another day.

[Droppeddead]

So, I had a discussion about maximizing ASI/Feats on a single character - and obviously a custom/variant human Rogue 12/Figher 8 maxes out at 1 Feat + 7ASI/Feats.

Concept wise this isn't actually a bad combination, but I wonder - which two subclasses for those levels would have the best synergies?

PSI Warrior and Soulblade come to mind for an obscene amount of PSI dice
Battlemaster and Swashbuckler for self given Reaction Sneak Attack
or a simple Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster combo?

What can you come up with (especially considering the many feats available)

Depends. Are you going for a pure damage build or are you also interested in skill versatility and stuff like that as well? A Champion fighter would increase the chance for critical hits which would go well with an Alert Assassin (or Swashbuckler). Rune Knights are also fun for some extra damage. As for feats in general, you can make a devastatingly good sniper with Crossbow Expert, Sharpshooter and the Archery Fighting Style.

To be perfectly honest, you don't really need the 7th ASI you get from taking the 8th level of Fighter. You get some really cool Rogue abilities at level 13 that are much more useful (for example, a Champion 7, Scout 13 is a crit monster) than most feats or an ASI, plus they get an extra sneak attack die. In fact, the since Fighters get subclass stuff at 7th level and Rogues get them at 13th level, the best Fighter/Rogue split is probably Fighter 7. Rogue 13.

[Gignere]

Hmm I am thinking of a BM / AT that uses heavy armor and shield. With the HAM feat, nab blind fighting, defense fighting styles along with sentinel and be the ultimate tank. Strategy will be using fog cloud for both offense and defense. Riposte and sentinel will trigger constantly for off turn sneaks.

Booming blade before you get Shadowblade when you get shadowblade it will be extra attack time.

Grab expertise in athletics for the time that it is better to grapple.

[StoneSeraph]

You get some really cool Rogue abilities at level 13 that are much more useful (for example, a Champion 7, Scout 13 is a crit monster) than most feats or an ASI, plus they get an extra sneak attack die. In fact, the since Fighters get subclass stuff at 7th level and Rogues get them at 13th level, the best Fighter/Rogue split is probably Fighter 7. Rogue 13.

An excellent point. In the case of the Scout/Champion, a dyed-in-the-wool critfisher can't really say no to Ambush Master.
Advantage on initiative rolls, and subsequent attack rolls against the first target the Scout hits in the first round of combat have Advantage until the start of their next turn.
Stated differently, the first hit scored acts as a better version of guiding bolt. And it's an always-on ability, which moreover works regardless of when the Scout acts in that first round.
If that was a feat, I would take it == I temporarily break the rules of the question at hand and would level Scout to 13.

[Droppeddead]

An excellent point. In the case of the Scout/Champion, a dyed-in-the-wool critfisher can't really say no to Ambush Master.
Advantage on initiative rolls, and subsequent attack rolls against the first target the Scout hits in the first round of combat have Advantage until the start of their next turn.
Stated differently, the first hit scored acts as a better version of guiding bolt. And it's an always-on ability, which moreover works regardless of when the Scout acts in that first round.
If that was a feat, I would take it == I temporarily break the rules of the question at hand and would level Scout to 13.

Or, if we are still breaking the 12/8 setup. A Rune Knight 7/Swasbuckler 13 with Cloud and Frost runes and the Gladiator background is basically Ric Flair or (perhaps more appropriate) the Rock. :smallcool:

[OldTrees1]

I think Arcane Trickster would help the most to enable high level options (A Familiar and Invisibility is nice). The Fighter side could be anything.


Hm Arcane Trickster Eldritch Knight could do:
Minor Illusion -> War Magic -> Sneak Attack. On this Rogue, that is like a bonus action Minor Illusion.
Edit: Clarifying:
The Sneak Attack was already going to be a sneak attack. The arrows showed order of operations to enable also getting a free cantrip.

The Cantrip Minor Illusion was chosen because it is a non damaging combat trick that scales. Non damaging because Rogue specializes in a single attack, so a 2nd attack (even a cantrip) is less impressive than a debuff / battlefield control effect.

[StoneSeraph]

Or, if we are still breaking the 12/8 setup. A Rune Knight 7/Swasbuckler 13 with Cloud and Frost runes and the Gladiator background is basically Ric Flair or (perhaps more appropriate) the Rock. :smallcool:

That also sounds fun. Now I want to run a table full of Rogue/Fighters. :smallsmile:

Going back to feat choices, given that my Scout/Champion will split 13/7, that character is left with 7 ASIs total, 6 if he's a wood elf and I'm really jonesing for crits.
My running feat options include:
Alert, Crossbow Expert, Elven Accuracy[+DEX]*, Sharpshooter, Skill Expert[+DEX,<skill>,Expertise(Perception)]**, Skulker, Wood Elf Magic*
* if WoodElf (L1 DEX == 17)
** if VHuman (L1 DEX == 15) or CustomHuman (L1 DEX == 17)

VHuman(DEX15)(7): Skill Expert; ++DEX; ++DEX; 4 feats
VHuman(DEX16)(7): Feat; ++DEX; ++DEX; 4 feats
CHuman(DEX17)(7): Skill Expert; ++DEX; 5 feats
WoodElf(6): Elven Accuracy; ++DEX; Wood Elf Magic; 3 feats

The variant humans and the wood elf will hit DEX 20 by two class-based ASIs with 4 feats apiece remaining; lo and behold, my list contains four other feats for my character to select at leisure.
The bonus for the VHuman starting with DEX 16 is that I can choose another feat outside the above list (probably Lucky, because it's awesome and I'm not terribly imaginative), either as the race feat, as a "capstone" ASI, or anywhere in between.
If Wood Elf, I'll pick up Wood Elf Magic for pass without trace, seeing as its a lovely spell that fits the character goals exceptionally well, then choose other options as most desired, likely forgoing Skulker.
The CustomHuman will "win" owing to hitting DEX 20 after one class-based ASI; with a fifth feat available, I'd probably follow the VHuman and choose Lucky.

Going back to the original premise of a 12/8 split, that character would have another ASI available; moreover, if I decide to stick with a longbow and forego crossbows altogether, then I could feasibly ignore Crossbow Expert, though ignoring Disadvantage on ranged attacks against adjacent targets is quite useful in a pinch.
Lucky is just awesome and would be strongly considered.
Skill Expert[<ability>] would be handy if I had an odd ability score and/or another skill I wanted Expertise in (Survival; look at me - I am the Ranger now).
Observant would be nice in games where the DM is a big fan of employing passive abilities, but if you're used to saying "I check my environment for traps and threats," then it may not be as useful.
Mobile would be OK for positioning and synchs well with Cunning Action(Dash), difficult terrain or not, assuming you're not using/can't use Cunning Action(Hide).

I've probably missed a few good ideas, but that would be the gist of such a character.

EDIT: I completely forgot about the new Piercer[+DEX] feat. That might supersede Skill Expert[+DEX], or in the case of the VHuman(DEX16), occupy the race feat slot with Skill Expert[+DEX] as the first class-based ASI (still achieving DEX 20 after two class-based ASI's). With the number of dice per Sneak Attack scaling with level, the likelihood of rolling a 1 or a 2 on any given damage die approaches 1 as Rogue level increases; if I roll a 1 on a d6, I'll want to reroll it, and if I roll a 1 on the weapon die, then I'll most definitely want to reroll it.

[Gignere]

I think Arcane Trickster would help the most to enable high level options (A Familiar and Invisibility is nice). The Fighter side could be anything.


Hm Arcane Trickster Eldritch Knight could do:
Minor Illusion -> War Magic -> Sneak Attack. On this Rogue, that is like a bonus action Minor Illusion.

With Steady Aim this is not even necessary. Just steady aim and advantage away.

You’re probably better off just getting help from familiar, booming blade and if it misses bonus action war magic otherwise you can use your bonus action for the other AT shenanigans.

[OldTrees1]

With Steady Aim this is not even necessary. Just steady aim and advantage away.

You’re probably better off just getting help from familiar, booming blade and if it misses bonus action war magic otherwise you can use your bonus action for the other AT shenanigans.

Huh? Why would Steady Aim be relevant? The Rogue is already getting Sneak Attack. In normal scenarios Sneak Attack is always on without costing any actions. If you are using advantage to enable sneak attack, then consider talking to your allies instead. Cooperation is better action economy than Steady Aim.

The point was they get to do Minor Illusion too. A free Minor Illusion each round can be quite fun in combat.

[Pyrophilios]

So, what I've come up with is a Half Elf Swashbuckler 12/Echoknight 8 - maximized Charisma, Spellsniper, Eldritch Adept (Agonizing Blast), Alert, Gunner

Tactical teleportation with long range or within 5 feet engagement - and you get 4 attacks.

[Gignere]

So, what I've come up with is a Half Elf Swashbuckler 12/Echoknight 8 - maximized Charisma, Spellsniper, Eldritch Adept (Agonizing Blast), Alert, Gunner

Tactical teleportation with long range or within 5 feet engagement - and you get 4 attacks.

Agonizing blast is not allowed by Eldritch Adept unless you have actual warlock levels.

[Draz74]

I actually played a Rogue 6 / Fighter 5 who was planned to go Rogue 12 / Fighter 8. She was a Swashbuckler/Battle Master.

It seemed like a very effective build to me, although partly that was because I rolled pretty great for ability scores. On the other hand, I wasn't taking advantage of getting extra Sneak Attack through Reaction attacks. (Brace didn't exist yet, and Riposte just didn't seem like a priority; I had a Maneuver selection of Disarming Attack, Precision Attack, Feinting Attack.)

[SLOTHRPG95]

Mobile Thief Rogue/Champion Fighter for the 30' long jump. In all seriousness, a Thief with Mobile is great at 2.5-D battlefield positioning, and the initiative boost from Remarkable Athlete never hurts. Plus, Improved Critical works well on a class that gets much of its damage via sneak attack dice. I'd probably also grab Alert and max out Dex, leaving four ASIs/feats to play with.